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Bicycle Nouveau [KS] 2nd try

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Bicycle Nouveau [KS] 2nd try
« on: October 31, 2014, 05:08:25 AM »
 

bfplayingcards

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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cardlauncher/nouveau-bicycle-playing-cards

INDIEGOGO FIXED FUNDING (IF WE FAIL TO FUND THE PROJECT, INDIEGOGO WILL RETURN ALL THE PLEDGED MONEY TO OUR BACKERS)

NOUVEAU Bicycle is a limited edition Art Nouveau inspired deck. The court cards represent the historical and mythological heroes and heroines traditionally featured in the original French decks since the 16th century.

It's a standard Bicycle branded deck printed by USPCC and it consists of 56 cards including a full 52 card deck, plus 2 Jokers, 1 double backer card and one Ad card. It comes with a limited edition seal.

PERKS

$15 for 1 (+ $4 for international shipping)
$26 for 2 (+ $6 for international shipping)
$85 for 2 decks + 1 wooden handmade box (+ $22 for international shipping)
$60 for 3 decks + 1 uncut sheet (+ $18 for international shipping)
$50 for 4 (+ $10 for international shipping)
$100 for 4 decks + 1 wooden handmade box (+ $26 for international shipping)
$210 for 6 decks + 1 uncut sheet + 1 wooden handmade box + 1 art print + 1 ace t-shirt (+ $66 for international shipping)
$230 for 6 decks + 1 uncut sheet + 1 wooden handmade box + 1 art print + 1 ace hoodie (+ $68 for international shipping)
$130 for 12 decks (+ $25 for international shipping)
$200 for 24 decks (+ $35 for international shipping)

SPECIAL LIMITED PERKS

$26 for 3 decks (+ $8 for international shipping)
$50 for 6 decks (+ $20 for international shipping)


ADMIN NOTE: 2nd try at funding on KS has begun!
Read http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=7386.msg113004#msg113004 for more information.











I appreciate any kind of feedback on our deck! Thank you :)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 12:52:58 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2014, 07:25:59 AM »
 

Marcus

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That logo on the bottom flap looks an awful lot like Ellusionist's logo. Just a headsup as you probably don't want that printed.
Yes, I might be the guy you remember from that thing at that place way back when.
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2014, 08:04:29 AM »
 

Rose

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Welcome bfplayingcards
Beautiful deck! The back of the card does not flow too well though. Excuse the rough sketch over it but I think if the patterned followed this design it would look better. Well done!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 09:34:35 AM by Rose »
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2014, 09:13:09 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I like this design a lot.  It's very much an Art Nouveau design and a lovely one at that.

I have a question, though.  The photos presented in the KS project list what appears to be two different decks.  The Aces are shown with a cream color background with full color courts, but the other suits below it look like they're printed on white and with black-and-white courts.  Are the black-and-white cards preliminary designs?  If not, which will the deck look like?

That logo on the bottom flap looks an awful lot like Ellusionist's logo. Just a headsup as you probably don't want that printed.

Yeah, there's no way USPC Legal would let that fly.  Gotta own or have rights to any IP you use and that really looks like the "Ellusionist Playing Card Co." logo.
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Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2014, 10:48:16 AM »
 

bfplayingcards

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That logo on the bottom flap looks an awful lot like Ellusionist's logo. Just a headsup as you probably don't want that printed.

You're right, I didn't even pay attention to that until you mentioned it. As we were going to print in Spain at first, I already got in touch with the art and legal teams and they approved of the design, though they probably missed that and I haven't noticed it either. I'm going to change that, thanks for the remark :)

I like this design a lot.  It's very much an Art Nouveau design and a lovely one at that.

I have a question, though.  The photos presented in the KS project list what appears to be two different decks.  The Aces are shown with a cream color background with full color courts, but the other suits below it look like they're printed on white and with black-and-white courts.  Are the black-and-white cards preliminary designs?  If not, which will the deck look like?
Thank you Don Boyer :) Yeah the black-and-white cards are a preliminary design. One joker and Spades are the only definitive designs. I'm working on the other suits and will post the finished cards as soon as I'm done :)

Welcome bfplayingcards
Beautiful deck! The back of the card does not flow too well though. Excuse the rough sketch over it but I think if the patterned followed this design it would look better. Well done!

Thank you for your feedback Rose :)
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Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2014, 12:43:31 PM »
 

Collector

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Interesting design and cultural/historical background.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2014, 12:19:16 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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On a second look, I'd like to make a small recommendation: push the indices deeper into the corners.  The further from the corner an index is, the wider a player will have to spread the cards in his or her hand.  A wider spread means you can hold fewer cards and there's a greater risk of flashing a card to an opposing player.  If you look at "standard issue", common decks like the Bicycle Standard or the Bee deck (or Fournier's 505 and 605 decks), you'll see they try to go very deep into the index corners.

Wouldn't it be cool if you could cost-effectively print with Fournier...  They're actually a subsidiary of USPC for a few decades now.  They do some impressive work with cards and they've printed decks under the Bicycle name before, most notably the Bicycle Prestige all-plastic decks.
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Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2014, 12:27:40 AM »
 

John B.

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I really enjoy how the back the circles seem to interlock. Almost like an optical illusion.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2014, 05:30:02 PM »
 

bfplayingcards

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Interesting design and cultural/historical background.

I really enjoy how the back the circles seem to interlock. Almost like an optical illusion.

Thank you Collector and John B.!   :)

On a second look, I'd like to make a small recommendation: push the indices deeper into the corners.  The further from the corner an index is, the wider a player will have to spread the cards in his or her hand.  A wider spread means you can hold fewer cards and there's a greater risk of flashing a card to an opposing player.  If you look at "standard issue", common decks like the Bicycle Standard or the Bee deck (or Fournier's 505 and 605 decks), you'll see they try to go very deep into the index corners.

Wouldn't it be cool if you could cost-effectively print with Fournier...  They're actually a subsidiary of USPC for a few decades now.  They do some impressive work with cards and they've printed decks under the Bicycle name before, most notably the Bicycle Prestige all-plastic decks.

I'll change that and post an update for your feedback, thank you :) Yeah, we've been in touch with Fournier, the only con is they asked for a huge minimum for production
Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do - Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2014, 02:20:17 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I'll change that and post an update for your feedback, thank you :) Yeah, we've been in touch with Fournier, the only con is they asked for a huge minimum for production

I'm sorry to hear that - it's unfortunate.

If pricing becomes an issue and you're willing to make the deck without the Bicycle brand name, there are some top-notch printers with a presence on this board - specifically, the Expert Playing Card Company and the Legends Playing Card Company.  They can usually beat any price USPC offers feature-for-feature and are more flexible if you want something special for your deck, like foil, embossing and other shiny bits and bobs!  They'll also print smaller runs, down to as little as 1,000.  USPC bottoms out at 2,500.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 02:20:53 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2014, 09:25:50 AM »
 

PurpleIce

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I really enjoy how the back the circles seem to interlock. Almost like an optical illusion.

The only thing i don't like about it is how it seemingly cuts off in the middle, with the line at the portion the interlock. I thought it would be much nicer if they followed it through all the way.

@ bfplayingcards
I really hope you will make some improvements and try kickstarter if things do not go well at indiegogo. I do believe this deck will be more well received there mainly because of the "traffic" for playing cards KS has as compared to indiegogo
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 09:28:59 AM by PurpleIce »
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2014, 02:08:38 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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@ bfplayingcards
I really hope you will make some improvements and try kickstarter if things do not go well at indiegogo. I do believe this deck will be more well received there mainly because of the "traffic" for playing cards KS has as compared to indiegogo

That's the thing, PurpleIce - being based in Spain, they can't create a Kickstarter project without teaming up with someone in a country that Kickstarter does work with.
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Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2014, 04:00:02 AM »
 

Thirdway Industries

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Love the courts of this deck. Too bad they need to go on Indiegogo, I had the same problem for my decks :(
Hope they can find a way, this deserve to be funded!
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2014, 05:18:06 AM »
 

bfplayingcards

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I really enjoy how the back the circles seem to interlock. Almost like an optical illusion.

The only thing i don't like about it is how it seemingly cuts off in the middle, with the line at the portion the interlock. I thought it would be much nicer if they followed it through all the way.

@ bfplayingcards
I really hope you will make some improvements and try kickstarter if things do not go well at indiegogo. I do believe this deck will be more well received there mainly because of the "traffic" for playing cards KS has as compared to indiegogo

Rose commented on the interlock as well, I'll try to do something about it without changing the whole design and will post it for feedback :)
Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do - Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2014, 05:28:41 AM »
 

bfplayingcards

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@ bfplayingcards
I really hope you will make some improvements and try kickstarter if things do not go well at indiegogo. I do believe this deck will be more well received there mainly because of the "traffic" for playing cards KS has as compared to indiegogo

That's the thing, PurpleIce - being based in Spain, they can't create a Kickstarter project without teaming up with someone in a country that Kickstarter does work with.

That's right, we won't have another choice though if the project isn't funded on Indiegogo...

Love the courts of this deck. Too bad they need to go on Indiegogo, I had the same problem for my decks :(
Hope they can find a way, this deserve to be funded!

Thank you, I really appreciate that you like the design :) We'll try to do our best to back it on Indiegogo; it's proving to be an odyssey but there's still time left and we could have a stroke of luck at some point, hopefully :)
Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do - Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2014, 06:32:42 AM »
 

sprouts1115

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bfplayingcards - Your indices can move a bit closer toward the cut border.  You want as many cards in your hand as possible.  Your pips in your pip cards can spread out a bit more on the card. A bit to much negative space. Your court cards need a suit indicator in your custom courts.  The small pip in the indices doesn't cut it at a distance.  You could contact Kings Wild Project, Albino Dragon, Gamblers Warehouse, or Collectable Playing Cards and see they can sponsor you in the USA.  I'm sure one of these guys wouldn't mind expanding their services.  Another plus is they can also do fulfillment for the USA.  Not saying Indiegogo isn't bad, but Kickstarter gives you a lot more exposer for success.
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2014, 07:43:54 AM »
 

GBAllison

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The fronts are beautiful and really deliver that art nouveau look and feel.  But to me, the backs are completely disconnected from the organic and flowing style of art nouveau.  True, they're intricate.  But the look is all perfect circles and geometrics--almost the antithesis of art nouveau.  For me, that's a showstopper.

P.S. Agree completely that the indices need to be closer to the edge--where they are now makes a bridge hand almost impossible to hold.  I don't mind the plus-sized white space on the number cards--I love a pip layout that's a bit unusual, while staying legible.  Like others, I do mind the lack of a large suit indicator on the court cards.  You need to be able to tell at a glance what card is being played--and in many games the suit counts.

All of those are easily fixable ... but the backs ... oh man.

.
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2014, 11:18:36 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Russ, I'll look at this a piece at a time.  Everyone, bear in mind I'm giving my opinions - it's not word of law or anything like it.  (And no, I'm not picking on you - we actually agree on a few points.)

bfplayingcards - Your indices can move a bit closer toward the cut border.  You want as many cards in your hand as possible.

Gee, that sounds familiar...  Yeah, I mentioned that, and BF was already working on it - you can see some of the photos on the campaign page have indices closer to the corner.

Quote
Your pips in your pip cards can spread out a bit more on the card. A bit to much negative space.

To me, they're just fine.  One of my favorite decks, Moth/Myth, had similar spacing - it looks so darn cute!

Quote
Your court cards need a suit indicator in your custom courts.

To me, that's optional, but I'll grant that if your art doesn't really fill the card's printable area, perhaps suit pips next to the court heads would look nicer.  I'd have to see it that way to be certain.

Quote
The small pip in the indices doesn't cut it at a distance.

I would disagree.  I held my computer at arm's length and looked at the mockups of the cards.  I wear glasses but had no trouble.  It would be different if the cards were on the far side of a poker table, but it would be no more different than any other standard index deck.  If anything, size-wise they're a bit LARGER than normal - standard decks have a pip that's half the height of the value in the index, and these pips are nearly the same height.  They're a bit narrow, perhaps, but it complements the art style and the design very nicely.

Quote
You could contact Kings Wild Project, Albino Dragon, Gamblers Warehouse, or Collectable Playing Cards and see they can sponsor you in the USA.  I'm sure one of these guys wouldn't mind expanding their services.  Another plus is they can also do fulfillment for the USA.  Not saying Indiegogo isn't bad, but Kickstarter gives you a lot more exposer for success.

This is a good idea, though it would mean reducing the overall profits.  It's an added expense to the project.

I have seen cases where an artist simply sells the design to another party, who goes on to produce the design and pays the artist a flat fee (a sizable one, if they're skilled artists/designers).  You might or might not earn as much running your own KS project and you leave all the headaches involved with producing a deck in someone else's lap while you go and start the next project idea.

The fronts are beautiful and really deliver that art nouveau look and feel.  But to me, the backs are completely disconnected from the organic and flowing style of art nouveau.  True, they're intricate.  But the look is all perfect circles and geometrics--almost the antithesis of art nouveau.  For me, that's a showstopper.

P.S. Agree completely that the indices need to be closer to the edge--where they are now makes a bridge hand almost impossible to hold.  I don't mind the plus-sized white space on the number cards--I love a pip layout that's a bit unusual, while staying legible.  Like others, I do mind the lack of a large suit indicator on the court cards.  You need to be able to tell at a glance what card is being played--and in many games the suit counts.

All of those are easily fixable ... but the backs ... oh man.

I wouldn't say the backs are hideous - but in the same breath I'd also have to admit that I've seen better and it doesn't connect as well with the art on the faces.

BF, I would recommend you check out this booklet, affectionately known as "Mrs. Robinson's".  This is the book describing the first 81 Bicycle back designs, and the table of contents gives the date in which the back was first issued.  As the Bicycle brand has been around since 1885, you'll certainly find backs that are contemporary of the Art Nouveau era - perhaps something will resonate with you and give you ideas for a different design for your deck.

Most relevant for you might be the Cupid Back - number 21.  The design has two interlocking wheels similar to your interlocking circles, but without the sudden termination of the circle "mid-lock".  It could provide a little inspiration on how to modify your back design in a way that will really capture Art Nouveau.  I'm no artist, but one thing I note of Art Nouveau decks is that there's some complexity and some simplicity in each design, giving it a feeling that's decorative but not overly intricate.  You may have leaned a bit too far into the intricate side of things.

Also, as I look at a close-up of the back, two things stand out.  First, the level of detail is so high, some of it might be lost when the deck goes to press, especially if you're doing the design in brown and dark yellow or brown and metallic gold - metallic gold ink is darker than most people realize.  Second is that the circlular pattern is segmented and doesn't flow smoothly at all from one circle's quadrant to the next - there are visible lines separating them, and in some cases the edges meet in a very disjointed manner.  The top and bottom have two "half-hearts" meeting along the center line, but one half is vertically flipped relative to the other, making for a shape that more resembles a capsule than a heart.
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Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2014, 06:15:37 PM »
 

bfplayingcards

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First, thank you all for your opinions :) :) Now, about the pips and indices:

bfplayingcards - Your indices can move a bit closer toward the cut border.  You want as many cards in your hand as possible.  Your pips in your pip cards can spread out a bit more on the card. A bit to much negative space. Your court cards need a suit indicator in your custom courts.  The small pip in the indices doesn't cut it at a distance. 

P.S. Agree completely that the indices need to be closer to the edge--where they are now makes a bridge hand almost impossible to hold. 

You're right about it, I'll post an update for your feedback later this week :)

About IGG, KS and production:

You could contact Kings Wild Project, Albino Dragon, Gamblers Warehouse, or Collectable Playing Cards and see they can sponsor you in the USA.  I'm sure one of these guys wouldn't mind expanding their services.  Another plus is they can also do fulfillment for the USA.  Not saying Indiegogo isn't bad, but Kickstarter gives you a lot more exposer for success.

This is a good idea, though it would mean reducing the overall profits.  It's an added expense to the project.

I have seen cases where an artist simply sells the design to another party, who goes on to produce the design and pays the artist a flat fee (a sizable one, if they're skilled artists/designers).  You might or might not earn as much running your own KS project and you leave all the headaches involved with producing a deck in someone else's lap while you go and start the next project idea.

As you said sprouts1115, KS gives you a lot more exposure for success because people are used to going there for checking out and backing new and custom decks but we wanted to try doing it on our own first so IGG was our only choice. We already launched the project so we can't give up till the last day but it's true that after some days we're very aware that it will be too hard to get it funded on IGG. Meanwhile we'll contact as many people/companies as possible and see what can we do about KS. The good thing about this is that we can have another chance if we fail once or even twice.

About the back:

The fronts are beautiful and really deliver that art nouveau look and feel.  But to me, the backs are completely disconnected from the organic and flowing style of art nouveau.  True, they're intricate.  But the look is all perfect circles and geometrics--almost the antithesis of art nouveau.  For me, that's a showstopper.

All of those are easily fixable ... but the backs ... oh man.

I wouldn't say the backs are hideous - but in the same breath I'd also have to admit that I've seen better and it doesn't connect as well with the art on the faces.

BF, I would recommend you check out this booklet, affectionately known as "Mrs. Robinson's".  This is the book describing the first 81 Bicycle back designs, and the table of contents gives the date in which the back was first issued.  As the Bicycle brand has been around since 1885, you'll certainly find backs that are contemporary of the Art Nouveau era - perhaps something will resonate with you and give you ideas for a different design for your deck.

Most relevant for you might be the Cupid Back - number 21.  The design has two interlocking wheels similar to your interlocking circles, but without the sudden termination of the circle "mid-lock".  It could provide a little inspiration on how to modify your back design in a way that will really capture Art Nouveau.  I'm no artist, but one thing I note of Art Nouveau decks is that there's some complexity and some simplicity in each design, giving it a feeling that's decorative but not overly intricate.  You may have leaned a bit too far into the intricate side of things.

Also, as I look at a close-up of the back, two things stand out.  First, the level of detail is so high, some of it might be lost when the deck goes to press, especially if you're doing the design in brown and dark yellow or brown and metallic gold - metallic gold ink is darker than most people realize.  Second is that the circlular pattern is segmented and doesn't flow smoothly at all from one circle's quadrant to the next - there are visible lines separating them, and in some cases the edges meet in a very disjointed manner.  The top and bottom have two "half-hearts" meeting along the center line, but one half is vertically flipped relative to the other, making for a shape that more resembles a capsule than a heart.

Thank you for your detailed opinion :) I really appreciate it because it's constructive criticism and it helps me improve the design. It would be a shame to waste so much work over the wrong back. I'll start working on it asap and update you all with the changes for your feedback :)
Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do - Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2014, 12:17:12 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I'm glad I could be of help.  Best of luck with your research!
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Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2014, 06:09:59 PM »
 

bfplayingcards

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I've made some changes, let me know your opinions on this :)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 06:12:03 PM by bfplayingcards »
Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do - Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2014, 09:09:05 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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My opinions:

I liked the smaller "pip field" on the spot cards from the "before" image.

I noticed the "halo effect" around the courts and pips - this looks nice.  But there's some discoloring at the card edges as well.  It looks like an aging effect of some kind - which I think your deck doesn't need.  A smooth, light color without any aging effects looks nicer.  There have been a lot of decks using the "aged look", regardless of whether or not it fits the design.  For your deck, I prefer seeing the images on "paper" that looks brand new and not aged.  Without the aging, it looks like a deck I could have purchased in the Art Nouveau age, were I alive then.

I liken it to how, in many Westerns, all the buildings look a hundred years old.  The story, however, would have been set not long after these buildings were constructed.  People see "Old West town," they automatically assume it's supposed to look all old and worn like an Old West town looks today, but to the people alive in the era of the Old West, many of the buildings would have been practically new.

I find that while many decks are well-suited to having an aged, worn look, it's not best for all designs.  In your deck, I feel it takes focus away from the gorgeous art.

The new pip you placed on the courts would look much less crowded in the other corner than in the index corner.
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Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2014, 08:56:58 PM »
 

sprouts1115

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The new pip you placed on the courts would look much less crowded in the other corner than in the index corner.

Have to agree.  It would like better on the right side.  In modern playing cards, the suit indicator for the courts can be practically anywhere....
 

Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2014, 06:04:23 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I got some interesting news in my email a little while ago, directly from Bona Fide Playing Cards:

Hello Don Boyer,
We're writing you because we wanted to thank you for your support and also to let you know that we're stopping promotions for this campaign on Indiegogo because we'll be re-launching it on Kickstarter this December. Please note that your pledge will be refunded to your account after the end of this campaign, on December 7th. We're sorry for any inconvenience; if you like NOUVEAU Bicycle playing cards and want to support us again once it's launched on Kickstarter, you'll have a free deck added to your pledge (shipping included) if we reach the goal. We'll keep our accounts updated and you can also contact us on bonafideplayingcards@gmail.com for more info :)

Thank you, sincerely,

Bona fide Playing Cards


The project was scheduled to close on December 6th, but it's now listed as canceled.  Why on Earth would it take TWENTY-SIX DAYS to issue refunds?  That could be a new record.

Yet another reason not to use IndieGoGo...  It's almost as if they sought out all the possible ways to make crowdfunding go FUBAR and implemented every single one.

Let's hope those refunds arrive MUCH sooner.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 06:05:44 AM by Don Boyer »
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
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Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
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Re: New NOUVEAU Bicycle deck
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2014, 07:13:54 AM »
 

bfplayingcards

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The project was scheduled to close on December 6th, but it's now listed as canceled.  Why on Earth would it take TWENTY-SIX DAYS to issue refunds?  That could be a new record.

Yet another reason not to use IndieGoGo...  It's almost as if they sought out all the possible ways to make crowdfunding go FUBAR and implemented every single one.

Let's hope those refunds arrive MUCH sooner.

Though it's not our fault I must say I'm really sorry for all this :( we contacted them again, I'll let you know if there's something new...i honestly don't know why they charged you already because it's a fixed funding campaign and we don't get any money unless it's funded, so i don't understand this policy...anyways, I'll keep you updated
Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do - Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe