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Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...

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Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« on: January 10, 2014, 05:27:30 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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You know the odds are stacked against you when every single giveaway prize was for tickets between the numbers 10093 and 18976 - and you get three consecutive tickets numbered 21245, 21246 and 21247.  Really - was there even a point in sending me the tickets in the first place?  Were they short on bubble wrap and needed the useless tickets for extra padding?

That alone would simply be sour grapes, but I noticed that as you go through the weekly giveaways, the numbers of the winning tickets are low in the first week and get progressively higher with each following week.  Does that sound even REMOTELY random to you?  I'm no statistician, but I'd be inclined to think that a random draw that spat out such results would be an extremely remote possibility.  I certainly don't remember the terms of the drawing stating that the weekly drawing would be from tickets issued THAT WEEK ONLY.

The fifth week's weekly drawing had two consecutive tickets win - that's within the bounds of randomness, but since they're giving away tickets in consecutive order, it stands to reason there's a good chance one person won both of those prizes.  But then there's the fact that EVERY SINGLE TICKET for the prizes for that week was in the 18000-18999 range!  Now that's pushing the boundaries of probability a bit.

Week 1 range: 10093-11814
Week 2 range: 12312-13977
Week 3 range: 12078-13914
Week 4 range: 14374-15736
Week 5 range: 18019-18976
Week 6 range: 16341-18635

Grand prize - groupings with number of winning tickets in each:
10000-10999: 2
11000-11999: 2
12000-12999: 0
13000-13999: 0
14000-14999: 1
15000-15999: 0
16000-16999: 1
17000-17999: 2
18000-18999: 2
19000-21247, probably higher: ZERO

I can't help but feel the drawings weren't entirely random.  At the very least, if you have any of the thousands of tickets issued with a number higher than 18976, don't even bother checking the list - you lost, and it's possible you never had a chance in the first place.  It's like playing the lottery and learning that the winning numbers are 16, 17, 18, 0, ∞ and π with a bonus ball number of W.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 05:33:23 PM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2014, 05:43:57 PM »
 

Mydnyghte

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At face value, they're contest was impressive to me; the prizes, the giveaways, and the amount of both. However, when you got down to the nitty gritty, you had to spend a decent chunk of change to even partake. Referring to the guaranteed prizes when you spent so much money. Which of course dictated how many tickets you got for their "random" drawing. Typically, drawings take place at the end of a specified period. My ticket was 20400, and none of the winning numbers even went to 20000.....

Theory 11 had it going on. I was much more impressed with their contest.
 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2014, 05:58:02 PM »
 

Fanofyankees13

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You know the odds are stacked against you when every single giveaway prize was for tickets between the numbers 10093 and 18976 - and you get three consecutive tickets numbered 21245, 21246 and 21247.  Really - was there even a point in sending me the tickets in the first place?  Were they short on bubble wrap and needed the useless tickets for extra padding?

That alone would simply be sour grapes, but I noticed that as you go through the weekly giveaways, the numbers of the winning tickets are low in the first week and get progressively higher with each following week.  Does that sound even REMOTELY random to you?  I'm no statistician, but I'd be inclined to think that a random draw that spat out such results would be an extremely remote possibility.  I certainly don't remember the terms of the drawing stating that the weekly drawing would be from tickets issued THAT WEEK ONLY.

The fifth week's weekly drawing had two consecutive tickets win - that's within the bounds of randomness, but since they're giving away tickets in consecutive order, it stands to reason there's a good chance one person won both of those prizes.  But then there's the fact that EVERY SINGLE TICKET for the prizes for that week was in the 18000-18999 range!  Now that's pushing the boundaries of probability a bit.

Week 1 range: 10093-11814
Week 2 range: 12312-13977
Week 3 range: 12078-13914
Week 4 range: 14374-15736
Week 5 range: 18019-18976
Week 6 range: 16341-18635

Grand prize - groupings with number of winning tickets in each:
10000-10999: 2
11000-11999: 2
12000-12999: 0
13000-13999: 0
14000-14999: 1
15000-15999: 0
16000-16999: 1
17000-17999: 2
18000-18999: 2
19000-21247, probably higher: ZERO

I can't help but feel the drawings weren't entirely random.  At the very least, if you have any of the thousands of tickets issued with a number higher than 18976, don't even bother checking the list - you lost, and it's possible you never had a chance in the first place.  It's like playing the lottery and learning that the winning numbers are 16, 17, 18, 0, ∞ and π with a bonus ball number of W.

This, my friend, is why I declined to purchase anything from E during the holidays, aside from my complete lack of interest of any new products. I was keeping track of the numbers and noticed the numbers increased by week and were always within a certain range. Not random, as you said. You have a group of over 3,000 tickets that didn't see a single winner? That, and I didn't feel like a minimum of a $50 order was worth a shot to be part of a pool of over 11,000 other tickets. The odds were absolutely astronomical. In my opinion, as flawed as the physics of the theory11 wheel were, it was a much simpler, rewarding contest.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 06:06:09 PM by Fanofyankees13 »
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Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 06:14:13 PM »
 

Mydnyghte

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At least with the T11 contest, you had a very high chance of getting Elite Points. I bought just a couple cheap items for a few spins, and in the end I managed to win a Red Jaqk and won enough points to redeem for a White Monarchs deck. Minimum purchase amount to "win" a deck at E was $150. F that E.
 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2014, 06:44:21 PM »
 

ivan

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I agree... T11's contest had better odds than E's... and more fun!

I read on E's FB page where this guy had 12 tix and did NOT win any! lol

« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 06:45:15 PM by ivan »


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Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2014, 07:04:10 PM »
 

John B.

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Wait ellusionist did something? Only knew about T11. It was all the rage this year.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2014, 07:10:31 PM »
 

Jonathan

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Yeah I found that annoying too Don.
I found it especially annoying since I placed an order in November and should have gotten tickets in the 12000-15000 range; but since my order wasn't packed for over a month after I placed it, the tickets I'm probably going to get are 19000 +.
I say probably because I still haven't actually received that order yet... hahaha so I can't actually verify the numbers I got.
 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2014, 07:39:44 PM »
 

Leif

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I was so disappointed by last years contest so I decided to opt out this year. It sure seems like something isn't right  in that giveaway.
Maybe someone from Ellusionist might explain how the drawing was executed.
I agree that there were some great prices. I feel like they are favoring people who spend a large amount of money, with the giveaways especially, and I can understand that decision. But, being the guy who generally spend about $20-30 on some decks once or twice a year, I feel like I'm not exactly their target customer in these contests.
 

 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2014, 08:16:02 PM »
 

anhedonia

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Would seem to me this is a violation of California's laws on sweepstakes (Section 17539.5) The drawing was not random by any stretch. The 16000-17000 never made it into the weekly drawing, and apparently 19000+ didn't make it into anything. I plan on contacting the Attorney General's office.
You can too: http://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company
 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2014, 09:58:20 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I agree... T11's contest had better odds than E's... and more fun!

I read on E's FB page where this guy had 12 tix and did NOT win any! lol

Well, with twelve tickets, his odds were still slightly worse than a thousand to one...

Would seem to me this is a violation of California's laws on sweepstakes (Section 17539.5) The drawing was not random by any stretch. The 16000-17000 never made it into the weekly drawing, and apparently 19000+ didn't make it into anything. I plan on contacting the Attorney General's office.
You can too: http://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company


Week 6 did have cards in the range of the 16000s and 17000s, as did the Grand Prize drawing.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 09:58:56 PM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2014, 10:07:56 PM »
 

Anthony

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I don't know E's contest seemed a bit contrived, and as everyone said, you really needed to drop some coin to better your chances.........as slight as that may have been.

Now T11's contest on the other hand, while I know there was some complaining, the contest did give something back to ALL of their customers at NO CHARGE! Like it or not, people walked away with points and prizes without having to spend a dime. Some won with a lucky spin, others were able to accumulate enough points to buy something. But again....without having to spend anything, in my eyes that seems much more like a "Thank You for being our customers, whether you purchase a deck or a brick"

They gained my respect and support.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 10:08:29 PM by Sparkz »
 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2014, 12:26:55 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I don't know E's contest seemed a bit contrived, and as everyone said, you really needed to drop some coin to better your chances.........as slight as that may have been.

Now T11's contest on the other hand, while I know there was some complaining, the contest did give something back to ALL of their customers at NO CHARGE! Like it or not, people walked away with points and prizes without having to spend a dime. Some won with a lucky spin, others were able to accumulate enough points to buy something. But again....without having to spend anything, in my eyes that seems much more like a "Thank You for being our customers, whether you purchase a deck or a brick"

They gained my respect and support.

This is from the contest rules, in the section on Competition Entries - I added the bold to the text:

7. All Holiday Giveaway Entry Tickets are placed into orders at random. ellusionist® staff do not have any control over the tickets placed in each order. Only 1 ticket will be placed into each order for every $50 spent in the cart, excluding Gift Certificates. The cart will display the number of tickets to be placed in your package, prior to purchase.

Does three consecutive ticket numbers sound like a lot less than random selection to you?

And now the "free entry" rule, as is required for all such contests taking place in California:

11. In complying with California State Law, ellusionist recognises the ability for entries to be made into the competition without purchase. To receive your free ticket, please send a stamped, self-addressed envelope to "Holiday Giveaway Free Entry, Ellusionist.com, 553 Martin Ave Unit C, Rohnert Park, CA 94928.

So sure you could - and still can - get tickets for the contest.  You just need to shell out an envelope and two stamps.  There's no indication of a limit on how many times one can enter, but when you figure that 100 entries will cost around $100 including the cost of the envelopes, there's a theoretical limit as to how many entries your wallet can make.

"Hey, what about that 'and still can' statement?  Isn't the holiday contest over?"

Not according to this rule from the same section:

1. The Competition is valid from 19 November 2013 to 14 February, 2014.


These two rules I just mentioned would seem to be a contradiction of what this rule states, in the Qualifying Entrants section:

1. The Contest is open to all customers of ellusionist® who make a qualifying purchase (any purchase containing a shippable item, made between November 18, 2013 and midnight on December 31, 2013. Entrants under the age of eighteen (18) years old must seek parental and/or guardian consent before participating in the promotion.


But there's still no mention of when people can no longer request free entries, and the contest is still listed quite clearly as ending on Valentine's Day.

This rule is quite interesting, taken from the Prizes section:

3. All winners of the competition will be announced on facebook.com/ellusionist and in a prize notification blog post at blog.ellusionist.com no later than February 28, 2014 - excepting those prizes that remain unclaimed. Additionally, notification emails will be sent within 7 days following the closing of the promotion for any prizes that remain unshipped. ellusionist® reserves the right to deal with all unclaimed prizes in any manner deemed fit.


So, they might have a second chance contest.  Or they might keep the goodies for themselves.  Or they might burn them in an offering to the Yak God, Bahphotet.  Like the bottle says, "Anything is Possible!"

So, what are the real odds of getting a prize?  Who knows?  They don't even know, according to this rule from the same section:

4. Prize odds for the contest are conditional on the number of entries received/given during the promotion period and can therefore not be accurately published. Odds for winning any one prize are equal. Maximum odds for winning any prize should not at any point exceed 1 in 50,000 chance based on forecast of ticket supply. Should more than 50,000 tickets require to be issued before the end of the competition period, additional prizes will be added to maintain odds. Total prize pool value (non-inclusive of free gifts) is approximately $15,610.00 recommended retail value.

So your odds can't possibly be worse than 50,000:1 - unless of course, they never bothered to include tickets from your range in the drawing.  I would think it would be a statistical impossibility that my three "randomly-assigned" tickets would be three consecutive numbers.  Assuming that distribution was genuinely random, the odds of that occurring are:

50,000:49,998 that I'd get any one random ticket other than the last two.
49,999:1 that I'd get the next consecutive ticket.
49,998:1 that I'd get the next consecutive ticket after that one.

Total odds: 2,499,750,007.99992:1 - in plainer terms, nearly 2.5 billion to one.  I would have a better chance of winning any of the long-shot, multi-state lottery drawings in the US today.  Oh, miracle of miracles, I might be the luckiest man on the planet to have randomly received three numbers in a row out of a pool of 50,000... 

Now of course, this does assume 50,000 tickets were issued.  Since it appears that there were no tickets below 10,000, let's assume that ticket 10,001 was the first ticket and my three tickets were the last three issued.  Certainly, that would be the best my odds could possibly have been.  With the "last ticket" being 21,247, this means that 11,247 tickets were issued.  This would be the best possible odds scenario. So that gives us:

11,247:11,245 that I'd get any ticket other than the last two.
11,246:1 that I'd get the next consecutive ticket.
11,245:1 that I'd get the next one after that.

Total "best case scenario" odds: 126,438,781.9996443:1  To give you an idea of how nigh-impossible that is, the New York State Lottery website (nylottery.org) gives the odds for winning their top-prize games most recently drawn as follows:

Lotto - 6 numbers out of 59 - 22,528,737 to 1 based on a minimum $1 play (two games).  For any one game played, the odds get cut in half to 45,057,474 to 1.
Powerball - 5 numbers out of 59 and 1 number out of 35 - 175,223,510 to 1.
Mega Millions - 5 numbers out of 75 and 1 number out of 15 - 258,890,850 to 1.

So the odds of my occurrence are only about twice as good as winning the Mega Millions and about 1.4 times as good as winning the Powerball, the odds of winning the Lotto are six times EASIER than the odds of me drawing three consecutive numbers under best case scenario conditions in Ellusionist's "contest".

Boiling it down to brass tacks, I allege that E lied through their teeth about the actual randomness of the ticket distribution as well as the randomness of the drawing and that the entire "competition" was a huge fail from day one.  At least the poker hand contest from last year was kind of fun and it got people here teaming up to see what the key ticket needed was for each prize tier.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 12:30:28 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2014, 04:49:21 AM »
 

Jonathan

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While the raffle doesn't really seem random, let's all remember they did have the guaranteed giveaways which were nice.
T11s free spin a day was nice too of course
 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2014, 05:51:30 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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While the raffle doesn't really seem random, let's all remember they did have the guaranteed giveaways which were nice.
T11s free spin a day was nice too of course

??  Nice?  Guaranteed?  Did you not read the part in the rules about how unclaimed prizes can be disposed of by Ellusionist in an manner them deem fit?  Where do you see "guarantees" to the contrary?
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Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2014, 06:11:23 AM »
 

Firdawesome

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While the raffle doesn't really seem random, let's all remember they did have the guaranteed giveaways which were nice.
T11s free spin a day was nice too of course

??  Nice?  Guaranteed?  Did you not read the part in the rules about how unclaimed prizes can be disposed of by Ellusionist in an manner them deem fit?  Where do you see "guarantees" to the contrary?

I think Jonathan was referring to the tiered giveaways, where you get free products if you spend $75, $150, etc, all the way up to $1000.
 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2014, 07:51:14 AM »
 

Jonathan

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Mmm Sorry for being unclear Don.
I was referring to the separate tiered giveaways as firdawesome said.

I agree that raffle wasn't communicated well at all haha
 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2014, 02:25:02 PM »
 

Card Player

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Would seem to me this is a violation of California's laws on sweepstakes (Section 17539.5) The drawing was not random by any stretch. The 16000-17000 never made it into the weekly drawing, and apparently 19000+ didn't make it into anything. I plan on contacting the Attorney General's office.
You can too: http://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company

I did notice the grouped non-randomness of the tickets. They are not giving prizes out to friends or employee family members, are they?

I really don't care. The only prizes I had an interest in were the signature items, of which I was able to buy one Madison AIP anyway. You should not be buying product to win prizes. Spend $200 and get 4 entries or spend $200 and get the prize you really wanted. I don't really see the point in being upset about something you have little chance of winning.  You can't lose something you never really had.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 05:05:01 PM by !An0nym0u5 »
 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2014, 08:04:35 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Would seem to me this is a violation of California's laws on sweepstakes (Section 17539.5) The drawing was not random by any stretch. The 16000-17000 never made it into the weekly drawing, and apparently 19000+ didn't make it into anything. I plan on contacting the Attorney General's office.
You can too: http://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company

I did notice the grouped non-randomness of the tickets. They are not giving prizes out to friends or employee family members, are they?

I really don't care. The only prizes I had an interest in were the signature items, of which I was able to buy one Madison AIP anyway. You should not be buying product to win prizes. Spend $200 and get 4 entries or spend $200 and get the prize you really wanted. I don't really see the point in being upset about something you have little chance of winning.  You can't lose something you never really had.

I'm not upset over losing - I never expected to win a thing.  The part that upsets me is the fact that they stated this was a random drawing tickets are issued randomly, etc. when there's too many statistical anomalies that indicate that the contest was anything BUT random.
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Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2014, 05:40:54 PM »
 

anhedonia

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Just got my last order. Lowest ticket was 20275. Largest was 21968. It seems there were quite a few numbers (over 19000) that didn't end up making it into the drawing.

 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2014, 02:11:57 PM »
 

anhedonia

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One of the problems is that Ellusionist just flat out lies. As an example, when asked about shipping prices, Jake said: "Due to the weights, amounts we ship and other factors, we're excluded from USPS flat-rate. We instead deal with account rates, which while better than over-the-counter, are not awesome."
Well, I just got my USPS order in a Small FLAT-RATE box (my cost $5.15 online) and paid $13.65 shipping. Since they lie about this it's not a far stretch that they'd lie about everything else. I just wish they would be a little more upfront. Maybe a "we just can't be bothered to adjust shipping" would be sufficient.
Just look at the Red Artifice/Red Arcane screw-up. Instead of contacting people to either say "Computer mistake - sorry the offer isn't valid" (which they wouldn't do, due to fear of losing a sale), or saying "Sorry, we're out of Red Artifices, would you accept a Red Arcane?" (same issue), they just throw in another deck and make you take it, since most people don't want to aggravation of complaining or returning the stuff (and eating the postage).
I'm just irritated because they could be such a better company than the liars they are - and the slippery slope is that this "Giveaway" was just run illegally.
 

Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2014, 02:20:13 PM »
 

Fanofyankees13

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One of the problems is that Ellusionist just flat out lies. As an example, when asked about shipping prices, Jake said: "Due to the weights, amounts we ship and other factors, we're excluded from USPS flat-rate. We instead deal with account rates, which while better than over-the-counter, are not awesome."
Well, I just got my USPS order in a Small FLAT-RATE box (my cost $5.15 online) and paid $13.65 shipping. Since they lie about this it's not a far stretch that they'd lie about everything else. I just wish they would be a little more upfront. Maybe a "we just can't be bothered to adjust shipping" would be sufficient.
Just look at the Red Artifice/Red Arcane screw-up. Instead of contacting people to either say "Computer mistake - sorry the offer isn't valid" (which they wouldn't do, due to fear of losing a sale), or saying "Sorry, we're out of Red Artifices, would you accept a Red Arcane?" (same issue), they just throw in another deck and make you take it, since most people don't want to aggravation of complaining or returning the stuff (and eating the postage).
I'm just irritated because they could be such a better company than the liars they are - and the slippery slope is that this "Giveaway" was just run illegally.

Speaking as someone in the United States, it can't be a weight limit that excludes them from using USPS flat rate boxes. So long as a package is under 70 pounds (which you couldn't even fit into a large flat rate box- you can fit roughly 6 well bubble wrapped bricks in one of those), you can ship it. International could be different, but I'm not sure. Either way, it's confusing as to why USPS wouldn't be a valid option. UPS Ground is usually the go-to option when I order from them, and it's never less than about $20. It's part of the reason I order from them so rarely. theory11, on the other hand, offers USPS Priority Mail in flat rate boxes, and the shipping rarely comes to more than $10. The sad part is that USPS Priority Mail is usually twice as fast as the more expensive UPS Ground option, usually 2-3 days for USPS Priority and at least a week for UPS Ground. Granted I do live much closer to the theory11 warehouse than the Ellusionist warehouse, but still, USPS has always been faster and cheaper, from my experience with purchases and trades.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 02:23:33 PM by Fanofyankees13 »
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Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2014, 08:46:50 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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One of the problems is that Ellusionist just flat out lies. As an example, when asked about shipping prices, Jake said: "Due to the weights, amounts we ship and other factors, we're excluded from USPS flat-rate. We instead deal with account rates, which while better than over-the-counter, are not awesome."
Well, I just got my USPS order in a Small FLAT-RATE box (my cost $5.15 online) and paid $13.65 shipping. Since they lie about this it's not a far stretch that they'd lie about everything else. I just wish they would be a little more upfront. Maybe a "we just can't be bothered to adjust shipping" would be sufficient.
Just look at the Red Artifice/Red Arcane screw-up. Instead of contacting people to either say "Computer mistake - sorry the offer isn't valid" (which they wouldn't do, due to fear of losing a sale), or saying "Sorry, we're out of Red Artifices, would you accept a Red Arcane?" (same issue), they just throw in another deck and make you take it, since most people don't want to aggravation of complaining or returning the stuff (and eating the postage).
I'm just irritated because they could be such a better company than the liars they are - and the slippery slope is that this "Giveaway" was just run illegally.

The extra cash charged is the "handling" part of "shipping and handling".  Stock personnel have to eat and get paid, too.

As far as switching decks, they obviously felt it would be more expedient.  Remember, after the initial sale when the deck came out, they only had 2,000 decks remaining, which they've been using for prizes and giveaways ever since.  They had to run out sooner or later, and I'm sure there's a rule in the terms and conditions regarding these giveaways that allows them to make substitutions.
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Re: Ellusionist "Holiday Giveaway" - or not...
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2014, 09:47:23 AM »
 

Playingcardz

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