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Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs

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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2013, 11:26:26 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I suspect that they might have underestimated the costs involved in making two decks.  $7,500 per deck is really shaving it thin.  He should simply stick with the current two-deck plan but make the second deck a stretch goal, should they decide to relaunch.

Hey guys, the funds are definite cutting it close, but we are ok with that because we always have reserve funds to cover any issues. It's less about the funding and more about relaunching to focus on one deck. We would rather release a single strong deck than two decks that may linger.

What are you talking about, lingering?  You're very close to your goal and you have an attractive deck pair.  I think a bit more promoting is all you really need.  Try offering a special - increase your pledge by two more decks and get this fabulous and unique widget not available anywhere else ever, that sort of thing.  Dangle new stretch goals in people's faces.  Do an interview with someone in the "card press", like Kardify or Tuckcase.  Do something to a) stoke the fires under your present backers and b) ignite some fires under any potential backers.
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2013, 11:46:09 PM »
 

Rob Wright

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I suspect that they might have underestimated the costs involved in making two decks.  $7,500 per deck is really shaving it thin.  He should simply stick with the current two-deck plan but make the second deck a stretch goal, should they decide to relaunch.

Hey guys, the funds are definite cutting it close, but we are ok with that because we always have reserve funds to cover any issues. It's less about the funding and more about relaunching to focus on one deck. We would rather release a single strong deck than two decks that may linger.

What are you talking about, lingering?  You're very close to your goal and you have an attractive deck pair.  I think a bit more promoting is all you really need.  Try offering a special - increase your pledge by two more decks and get this fabulous and unique widget not available anywhere else ever, that sort of thing.  Dangle new stretch goals in people's faces.  Do an interview with someone in the "card press", like Kardify or Tuckcase.  Do something to a) stoke the fires under your present backers and b) ignite some fires under any potential backers.

I agree with Don. How many other designers would like to be 90% funded with 3 weeks left in the project. I don't like being negative, but I don't think I would back a relaunch.
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2013, 11:57:07 PM »
 

MagikFingerz

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I'm with Don and Rob.

I also think a hybrid deck just doesn't work with this theme, it's an homage to the classic rider backs which is red and blue. Nothing else would work as well.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 12:08:35 AM by MagikFingerz »
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2014, 11:13:24 PM »
 

vmagic

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I agree, there is absolutely zero reason for a relaunch and I'm not sure I would back it either. Cancelling a project will only hurt your reputation. I also agree that a lot of creators would love to be in your position. Also kind of makes me worry that you want to cancel a project at this stage!
 

Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2014, 02:13:34 AM »
 

Sher143

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4PM posted an explanation in one of their updates:

"I guess we're going to have to describe the situation number by number so people can get an idea of what we're doing and why...
When we designed this deck we planned to have several features added on as the campaign progressed. The way it is right now, is not at the potential the deck could be made and we made the mistake of setting the goal at the barebones. Yes, hitting the goal will get the deck made, but the final product could be better than was initially intended at launch. Right now the deck is standard tuck with minimal embossing, solid color printing inside, and no seal (or a plain black seal). The extra features could enhance the decks so we knew that product would be the best to release. Since, overfunding would be required to add these features, and it's risky at the pace it's going, it's better to relaunch.
These are approx. numbers so you have a better idea:
- 2,500 decks at approx. $2.76 each is $6,900, so 5,000 (2,500/2,500) is $13,800 (enough for our goal and shipping) so with bare additions like we have the numbers increases slightly but we still manage.
- Adding on features we would like including specialty inks on decks and tuck is approx. $.20, custom seal approx. $.20, and possible tuck texturing (like Madison Rounders/Dealers which strengthens the tucks which we are seeing prototypes for) approx. $.15. So now that approx. $2.76 deck is $3.31 bringing the projected total at $16,550 (remember these are approx. the USPCC is known to change costs up until the decks are going into print). Add on extra for shipping and dice/coin etc. costs and it gets costly.
However, if we focus on one deck, a $15,000 goal is easily reasonable and we get everything to make the deck even better."
« Last Edit: January 02, 2014, 02:13:56 AM by Sher143 »
 

Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2014, 08:14:40 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I agree, there is absolutely zero reason for a relaunch and I'm not sure I would back it either. Cancelling a project will only hurt your reputation. I also agree that a lot of creators would love to be in your position. Also kind of makes me worry that you want to cancel a project at this stage!

I'd have to disagree on this, after hearing the game plan involved.  There was a little miscalculating in terms of getting in all the desired features, and it makes sense in this case to make a better deck and offer the second one as a stretch goal instead of making two stripped-down decks and trying to build up the features in stretch goals that may never be met.
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2014, 10:40:13 AM »
 

BiggerDee

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If they pull this and relaunch, I will not be back. Now isn't the time to be thinking about these things, that should have been done before the project started. i would love to pull my pledge now, but I made a committment, and I will see that through to their cancellation. i will honor my pledge even if the creator doesn't honor theirs, but I won't make that mistake twice with the same creator, and I would give their decision to cancel great weight when in consideration to back their future projects. If you have great KS experiece, then you have even less excuse. *rant mode off*
 

Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2014, 01:30:19 PM »
 

splice42

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When we designed this deck we planned to have several features added on as the campaign progressed

In other words, the creators set the goal on kickstarter to an amount where they would not actually want to go on with the project. That's really, really crummy, and I expect I'll steer clear of any kickstarter started by "4PM Designs" for this reason. There's really no point in contributing to a kickstarter campaign if the people running it aren't going to put in an honest, realistic goal, which this obviously wasn't.
 

Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2014, 01:38:34 PM »
 

th4mo

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4PM says in the KS comments:
"..you can't simply order whatever number you want, that's not how the USPCC works. You either order 2,500, or 5,000. Unless something has changed in the last year or so, that's how it's always been. 2,500, 5,000, 7,500, 10,000, 15,000."

In other words, if you want to order 3000 decks, which is above the 2500 "minimum", USPCC won't let you... you have to order 5000???

This doesn't jive with what i've heard from other creators discussing their final print runs for their projects... but then i've never been through the process myself so i guess i don't really know.

Is this true?

 

Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2014, 02:30:23 PM »
 

MagikFingerz

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4PM says in the KS comments:
"..you can't simply order whatever number you want, that's not how the USPCC works. You either order 2,500, or 5,000. Unless something has changed in the last year or so, that's how it's always been. 2,500, 5,000, 7,500, 10,000, 15,000."

In other words, if you want to order 3000 decks, which is above the 2500 "minimum", USPCC won't let you... you have to order 5000???

This doesn't jive with what i've heard from other creators discussing their final print runs for their projects... but then i've never been through the process myself so i guess i don't really know.

Is this true?



I don't think this sounds plausible either, but you never know with USPCC. It wouldn't surprise me, but hopefully someone who knows can supply us with a definite answer.
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2014, 02:50:05 PM »
 

BiggerDee

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Randy, Paul, Jackson... do any of you have any insight here for the benefit of us non-creators? i know that this has been briefly discussed in the past, but I wonder if anything has changed recently.

This creator has a very unique and interesting dilemma, and is in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of situation. This project will be an interesting study when all is said and done.
 

Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2014, 04:51:02 PM »
 

Rob Wright

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From my understanding. You can order 2500+ for any 1 design. He has 2 colors/designs = 5000 (2500 each) minimum.
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2014, 04:57:18 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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4PM says in the KS comments:
"..you can't simply order whatever number you want, that's not how the USPCC works. You either order 2,500, or 5,000. Unless something has changed in the last year or so, that's how it's always been. 2,500, 5,000, 7,500, 10,000, 15,000."

In other words, if you want to order 3000 decks, which is above the 2500 "minimum", USPCC won't let you... you have to order 5000???

This doesn't jive with what i've heard from other creators discussing their final print runs for their projects... but then i've never been through the process myself so i guess i don't really know.

Is this true?

Now that's as legit as a three-dollar bill.  I've never seen anyone have to order in blocks of 2,500.  The discount tiers may be in such groupings, but as long as you meet the minimum, you can order any amount you wish - while recognizing that there's a 10% over/under clause, so something like an order of 3,000 can end up being between 3,300 and 2,700, with you paying for every deck that's actually printed.  Is it possible he simply misunderstood something?  And of course, each deck color is considered a separate order, with a separate minimum.
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2014, 11:07:42 PM »
 

Rob Wright

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I agree, there is absolutely zero reason for a relaunch and I'm not sure I would back it either. Cancelling a project will only hurt your reputation. I also agree that a lot of creators would love to be in your position. Also kind of makes me worry that you want to cancel a project at this stage!

I'd have to disagree on this, after hearing the game plan involved.  There was a little miscalculating in terms of getting in all the desired features, and it makes sense in this case to make a better deck and offer the second one as a stretch goal instead of making two stripped-down decks and trying to build up the features in stretch goals that may never be met.

I can't see that he miscalculated anything. This is his fourth project. The other 3 projects did over 40k each. The way I see it. He stripped the decks down thinking he would get the same funding as the others, then add all the bells and whistles.
Here is part of the original update about canceling.
Quote
As the Legacy struggles forward we have been considering different options for this project and our next. We have gotten plenty of good reactions to the decks and had big plans to continue the Legacy series as long as there was a demand for it. However, it doesn't seem that time is now. Before we go further, no we are not abandoning the Legacy decks. We love our Legacy decks and do plan to release it.
At over 90% funded with well over 2 weeks left. He was betting on overfunding, and realized it wasn't going to happen. To put in in card terms. he tried to bluff, and got called.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 12:22:47 AM by Rob Wright »
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2014, 12:08:45 AM »
 

MagikFingerz

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I agree, there is absolutely zero reason for a relaunch and I'm not sure I would back it either. Cancelling a project will only hurt your reputation. I also agree that a lot of creators would love to be in your position. Also kind of makes me worry that you want to cancel a project at this stage!

I'd have to disagree on this, after hearing the game plan involved.  There was a little miscalculating in terms of getting in all the desired features, and it makes sense in this case to make a better deck and offer the second one as a stretch goal instead of making two stripped-down decks and trying to build up the features in stretch goals that may never be met.

I can't see that he miscalculated anything. This is his fourth project. The other 3 projects did over 40k each. The way I see it. He stripped the decks down thinking he would get the same funding as the others, then add all the bells and whistles.
Here is part od the original update about canceling.
Quote
As the Legacy struggles forward we have been considering different options for this project and our next. We have gotten plenty of good reactions to the decks and had big plans to continue the Legacy series as long as there was a demand for it. However, it doesn't seem that time is now. Before we go further, no we are not abandoning the Legacy decks. We love our Legacy decks and do plan to release it.
At over 90% funded with well over 2 weeks left. He was betting on overfunding, and realized it wasn't going to happen. To put in in card terms. he tried to bluff, and got called.

Exactly right, Rob. This is a classic case of overconfidence that came back to bite them in the ass. I guess you could say they were spoiled by their previous successes, and made the fallacy of predicting the popularity of a brand new deck based on their previous (unrelated) work.

Personally, I'd rather see something like adding $1 on to the price of every deck to get to where they can add at least some of the stuff they were planning on adding. I'd definitely pay slightly more to get a better product if that's what it would take. Obviously taking a poll on it first, of course, as it might just be me who'd be okay with that.
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2014, 01:03:12 AM »
 

Rob Wright

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This is a comment I left on the project a little bit ago.

Quote
Robert Wright 13 minutes ago
Pablo, you are correct. A lot of us are very passionate about cards in general. I know you are as well. I can't imagine how you are feeling about all of this. It must be disheartening. A lot of us have been very negative, including myself, of your possible decision to cancel and re-launch. Unfortunately the funding on this project has pretty much stopped because of the negativity. A re-launch may be the only option now. If you stay the course with it as is, I'm committed to stay. Lets all try to turn it positive here. After all we backed this project because of the design, and 4pm's good tract record. Either way you go Pablo, I say good luck.

Why would I leave this comment, after the rant I laid above. Many reasons. No matter how I feel about him canceling, I try to believe the best in people. He wants to put out the best product he can. I just wish he had done that to begin with. On the forum we can all rant or be negative with little or no impact to the project. Being negative on the project can start a wild fire. A little negativity can kill a project. Pablo has a good reputation on KS, and that all could be ruined by what has happened. Maybe there is a little lesson here. Don't compromise. Design it the way you want to begin with. 
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2014, 07:17:19 AM »
 

splice42

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Maybe there is a little lesson here. Don't compromise.

There was no compromise. A compromise would have been: "We really, really want all the extra bells and whistles, but if people don't give us enough money, I guess we'll eat our pride and make the decks bare-bones because that's what we're funded for". In fact, I think that's the whole point of the stretch goal system. You wish you could build your products to the best specs with all the extra features, but if you can't get there, you still want to get it to market in its basic version.

Needless to say, this is exactly what 4PM didn't do. They were not willing to compromise, even though they set their kickstarter up to appear as if they were. The lesson is actually "Don't fib about how much funding you really want, because you might only get your lower figure and have to do it that way".
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 07:18:43 AM by splice42 »
 

Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2014, 07:38:11 AM »
 

MagikFingerz

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The more general lesson, which any business owner could and should take from this, is "Prepare for any outcome, and don't count on predictions and speculations being accurate".
- Tom
 

Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2014, 01:06:44 PM »
 

cosmicsecret

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Well, i think that 4PM Designs overcalculated the demand on this Legacy Deck.
The main reason behind canceling seems to me, and i could be wrong of course but, that they want to milk the design of the deck to its maximum.
Now with the current pledges this is not gonna happen.
The deck is produced to make money Period.

In the end they might end up with a pretty standard deck in terms of features (no embossing,foil and so on) - barely broke even after the KS Project and sitting on 3000+ decks which will not sell good (since its "standard").
The result would be a failure from a business point of view.

So ask yourself : Would you go through this hassle with that outcome?
I doubt it. So 4PM get´s panic...and would rather relaunch instead of sacrificing the design for a low ca$h output.


« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 01:08:09 PM by cosmicsecret »
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2014, 04:23:34 PM »
 

vmagic

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I think the way I see it, it is more than just the bells and whistles, it's also about a profit. Since they can't make a profit they would rather relaunch with all the bells and whistles to get that profit. Could it be they are just getting greedy?

Just reminds me of the Army Men deck. There was no reason for it not to be made except that Adam wasn't going to profit from it.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 05:22:09 PM by VJose32 »
 

Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2014, 07:00:51 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I think the way I see it, it is more than just the bells and whistles, it's also about a profit. Since they can't make a profit they would rather relaunch with all the bells and whistles to get that profit. Could it be they are just getting greedy?

Just reminds me of the Army Men deck. There was no reason for it not to be made except that Adam wasn't going to profit from it.

That's pretty much the point of any business, Victor.  If you aren't making a profit, you might as well be a charity.  If you'd like to make unprofitable decks out of your own pocket, by all means, don't let us stop you...

Army Men crashed for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being monetary mismanagement, but even if he went forward at a loss, he still had that pesky intellectual property issue to deal with - so no, there WAS a reason for it not to be made.

Getting greedy?  Get a clue.
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2014, 08:41:07 PM »
 

vmagic

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As far as I can tell Adam DID get that trademark issue resolved and the deck was a go.

And you are right, every business wants to make a profit and i'm sure 4PM has made some good profits off their previous decks and i'm sure they might make a little profit on this deck. Either way they made a commitment when they launched the campaign and profit or not they should fulfill it.
 

Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2014, 11:38:10 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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As far as I can tell Adam DID get that trademark issue resolved and the deck was a go.

And you are right, every business wants to make a profit and i'm sure 4PM has made some good profits off their previous decks and i'm sure they might make a little profit on this deck. Either way they made a commitment when they launched the campaign and profit or not they should fulfill it.

There's no commitment until the project is a done deal, fully funded.  The Legacy deck wasn't.  The campaign is in essence a promise to commit when the funding is in place - no funding, no obligation.

The trademark issue was resolved by an agreement that he had to made multiple changes to the design, which he abandoned when he realized the money to do it ran out, due to some mismanagement and an increase in shipping and printing costs that occurred while he was waiting to get his deck out of legal limbo.  He writes about it in the next-to-last project update, where he announces the project is kaput and that he's issuing refunds.  So "as far as I can tell", you didn't read this.

And if you still think that a business should still deliver on a product they haven't even committed to yet, knowing they're going to lose money in the process, you're no businessman.  I sometimes wonder what it's like to view the world with such a childlike vision, as if wearing rose-colored glasses...
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Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2014, 06:15:45 PM »
 

vmagic

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As far as I can tell Adam DID get that trademark issue resolved and the deck was a go.

And you are right, every business wants to make a profit and i'm sure 4PM has made some good profits off their previous decks and i'm sure they might make a little profit on this deck. Either way they made a commitment when they launched the campaign and profit or not they should fulfill it.

There's no commitment until the project is a done deal, fully funded.  The Legacy deck wasn't.  The campaign is in essence a promise to commit when the funding is in place - no funding, no obligation.

The trademark issue was resolved by an agreement that he had to made multiple changes to the design, which he abandoned when he realized the money to do it ran out, due to some mismanagement and an increase in shipping and printing costs that occurred while he was waiting to get his deck out of legal limbo.  He writes about it in the next-to-last project update, where he announces the project is kaput and that he's issuing refunds.  So "as far as I can tell", you didn't read this.

And if you still think that a business should still deliver on a product they haven't even committed to yet, knowing they're going to lose money in the process, you're no businessman.  I sometimes wonder what it's like to view the world with such a childlike vision, as if wearing rose-colored glasses...

He's not in a money losing position. In fact he made over $120,000 with his previous 3 decks, don't tell me there wasn't a quite a bit of profit in those, possibly enough to offset any loses he might have on these if he decides to emboss the boxes more like he wants to. And nobody is asking him to do that. Everyone pledged for the decks as is, why is he so afraid of just printing them as is? I'm sure he will still make some profit off the decks as is, perhaps more than he might if he abandons it and relaunches which could result in a failed campaign altogether.

I never said I was a businessman and I never said I don't make mistakes, I just have a different way of looking at things, doesn't make me childlike.
 

Re: Legacy Deck - 4PM Designs
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2014, 11:59:53 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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He's not in a money losing position. In fact he made over $120,000 with his previous 3 decks, don't tell me there wasn't a quite a bit of profit in those, possibly enough to offset any loses he might have on these if he decides to emboss the boxes more like he wants to. And nobody is asking him to do that. Everyone pledged for the decks as is, why is he so afraid of just printing them as is? I'm sure he will still make some profit off the decks as is, perhaps more than he might if he abandons it and relaunches which could result in a failed campaign altogether.

I never said I was a businessman and I never said I don't make mistakes, I just have a different way of looking at things, doesn't make me childlike.

It's not a matter of simply making money off of the deck - if that was the case, he could have continued as he was and the deck would likely have funded, just as you stated.  From the looks of things based on what he said, he had a grander design in mind - a BETTER deck than the one that was being offered.  He made a bit of a tactical error in assuming that he'd fund it all through stretch goals and achieve the level he wants the design to be in the end.  Rather than continue this project as-is, squeaking by with a decent-looking deck project in two colors and aiming for the bells and whistles with stretch goals he feels he won't achieve, he's decided he wants those bells and whistles and is canceling this deck to relaunch with a new project where the bells and whistles come first and the second deck becomes the stretch goal.  It's a wiser move, to be honest - funding two decks off the bat is a daunting challenge, and it still kills me that a gorgeous deck like SiShou - Four Beasts didn't reach its funding goal because of it when so many lousier decks manage to get funded.

As far as profit - what do you think happens to the money made from previous projects?  Sure, some may be kept in a company fund, but certainly not ALL of it!  You're basically saying that it's not profit motive that should be the main reason for the company continuing to make decks, which completely neglects the fact that if there was no profit to be made, NO DECK PROJECTS would be made, ANYWHERE.  Of that $120,000, the lion's share went toward getting the project done and out the door.  What happened to the rest, well - that's up to him!  I don't tell you how to spend your paycheck, so what gives you the right to tell him how to spend his?  How about I insist that YOU make up the difference for the extras he wants in the deck - sound good to you?  Of course not, and it's ludicrous to ask.

Unless the company's a non-profit or not-for-profit, no company goes into business to make projects that they know will lose money, period, regardless of how much funding they may or may not have in the "war chest" to make up the difference.  Even a company that donates goods, services or cash to a charity has a monetary incentive for doing so in the form of tax write-offs.  (Oh, wait, there is ONE type of company that goes into business to lose money - a front company for a money laundering operation!  And in the end, they STILL manage to make money...)

Look, if you don't want to fund the improved deck, so be it.  Somehow, I don't think he'll miss your pledge, since there will be enough people interested in seeing a better version of this to replace any lost funds from folks like you and then some.  But before you start telling someone how their projects should be made, even if it loses money, perhaps you should run one of your own - and not some Etsy deck, but a real playing card deck project run on Kickstarter and printed by USPC or better.  Maybe then I'll take what you have to say about it seriously.  To say "I just have a different way of looking at things" is an understatement, indeed.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 12:04:34 AM by Don Boyer »
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