tally ho quality difference

[TheDespotes]

I was just wondering, are the black seal tally ho's from Cincinnati the same quality as the blue seal tally ho's from cincinnati?

[Joker and the Thief]

Apparently there is. I have not had the pleasure of handling the Ohio versions but I have heard that they are a lot smoother, durable and have overall better handling than the Kentucky version. That's a tall order considering that the Kentucky decks are exceptional.

[Don Boyer]

I was just wondering, are the black seal tally ho's from Cincinnati the same quality as the blue seal tally ho's from cincinnati?

The truth of it is this: while a blue-seal deck in a Cincinnati box is definitely Cincinnati-made, a black-seal deck in the same box has a better-than-even chance of having been made in Erlanger instead - look on the guarantee joker for the address to confirm the plant it was made in.  At this time, the Cincinnati-made product was better.

Those black-seal Cincinnati boxes filled with Erlanger-made cards were done during the transition period from the beginning of the Erlanger plant.  This period went roughly from partway into 2009 through about the end of 2010.  Because they were still working out the kinks on the new presses, cutters, etc., the quality of nearly all decks made in that period (in particular their standard brands, though even some Q1 decks were affected) is considered to be noticeably lower than at Cincinnati.

Those same decks made from 2011 to today in Erlanger boxes are of a markedly better quality.  Simply put, the presses and other machinery is in significantly better condition than the Ohio plant.  Lee Asher mentioned to me that during the end of the Ohio era, custom deck designers were trying to get their decks made on the web press not because the process was inherently better - it's not - but because the sheet-fed press in place at the time was ancient, held together with spit, chewing gum and prayers.

Today, it's an entirely different story.  The only time decks get made on the web press is if they're being made in large quantities and the quality of the output from both presses are indistinguishable from each other.  And while they might not hold a candle to something from the "golden era", circa the '60s through the '70s, current Erlanger-made decks are superior to the decks made in Cincinnati in the last handful of years before the move.

[Joker and the Thief]

To put it simply. Modern and new tech = superiority over old and used technology.

[TheDespotes]

So I dont have real ohio tally ho's!!?? Thats quite misleading. Do the gold border tally ho's from ohio have the same quality as the normal tally ho's from ohio?

[Don Boyer]

To put it simply. Modern and new tech = superiority over old and used technology.

But it wasn't the case, at first!  The new stuff was performing WORSE than the old stuff for nearly two years, until they worked out the kinks.

So I dont have real ohio tally ho's!!?? Thats quite misleading. Do the gold border tally ho's from ohio have the same quality as the normal tally ho's from ohio?

Your black-seal TH decks may still be Ohio - only by opening them will you know for certain.


I own the gold bordered THs, all except for the light blue Maeda deck (I have the other two Maeda colors).  They're all Ohio-made and perform well, but it's arguable whether they're superior to the standard-issue decks of the same time period.  They certainly look cool, and for people who are into collecting the TH brand, the selection of unique decks is TINY.  Only Tomohiro Maeda has done much of anything with them besides USPC.  He's commissioned his own versions of the red and blue gold bordered decks, a third color in that series (light blue, as mentioned - it's uber-rare, hard to find and costly), the "Platinum Series" green Circle Backs with a "platinum" border, and the mini blue Circle Back.  Beyond that, there's the gold bordered ones USPC made for themselves, there's the black Circle and Fan Backs made by an unknown party for sale in magic shops, then there's the Tally Ho Vipers from E and the Tally Ho Platinums from T11.  (One could argue that the original Split Spades decks made for David Blaine are THs as well, since they use the TH jokers and Ace of Spades.)  I'm probably leaving something out, but if so, I'm sure someone will correct me.

[TheDespotes]

It says Kentucky on the guarantee card!  So I just own 8 deck of the worst tallys ever produced! 

[Don Boyer]

It says Kentucky on the guarantee card!  So I just own 8 deck of the worst tallys ever produced! 

I own them, too.  They're not as godsawful as you might think.

[Joker and the Thief]

It says Kentucky on the guarantee card!  So I just own 8 deck of the worst tallys ever produced! 

I own them, too.  They're not as godsawful as you might think.

They aren't that bad, in fact Kentucky tally's are some of my favourites and that's saying a lot coming from a cardist who is fussy about handling.

[Don Boyer]

It says Kentucky on the guarantee card!  So I just own 8 deck of the worst tallys ever produced! 

I own them, too.  They're not as godsawful as you might think.

They aren't that bad, in fact Kentucky tally's are some of my favourites and that's saying a lot coming from a cardist who is fussy about handling.

While Kentucky TH decks from 2009-2010 aren't the greatest decks I've ever owned, they're better by far than standard Bicycles.  The quality is (and probably has always been) higher than Bikes ever were, and are probably made at a higher "Q-level" of quality control.  The levels go from Q1 (best) down to Q5.  Q1 is usually reserved for expensive custom deck runs or high-end casinos.  If forced to guess, I'd peg THs at least as a Q3 while standard Bikes are probably Q4 or Q5.  The difference from level to level is how many technicians are manning the production line to insure a better level of quality control - the more techs, the lower the Q-level number (and the higher the quality, and the lower the number of defective decks) will be.

I have no idea what stock they're using these days, since we're down to just a handful: there's Bicycle 300 (standard), Bee casino and that 100% recycled paper used for special projects like the Eco Edition Bikes (it was most recently used for the Archangels).  At one time in history, TH had their own stock, then it was eliminated and replaced with a firmer version of Aristocrat, but recently that, too, was taken out of the line as well as Bee standard, according to a source I know that's very familiar with the custom card business.

[Gunshy1]

soooooo what don is saying is that pretty much all decks from now on are going to be the same damn thing.

[xela]

Yes all current decks from USPCC, and for the last year, have been nearly identical.

They offer: Bicycle and Bee stock, magic and air cushion finishes, smooth or dimpled surfaces.

That's it and anyone that says otherwise is lying.

Cincinnati Tally-Ho's are godly. I have one sealed pack left that I refuse to open.

[Don Boyer]

Yes all current decks from USPCC, and for the last year, have been nearly identical.

They offer: Bicycle and Bee stock, magic and air cushion finishes, smooth or dimpled surfaces.

That's it and anyone that says otherwise is lying.

Cincinnati Tally-Ho's are godly. I have one sealed pack left that I refuse to open.

You left out that recycled stock with the starch finish and veggie-based inks... 

[MrMollusk]

Yes all current decks from USPCC, and for the last year, have been nearly identical.

They offer: Bicycle and Bee stock, magic and air cushion finishes, smooth or dimpled surfaces.

That's it and anyone that says otherwise is lying.

Cincinnati Tally-Ho's are godly. I have one sealed pack left that I refuse to open.

You left out that recycled stock with the starch finish and veggie-based inks... 

I'm honestly not sure if you're serious or not. 

[John B.]

Yes all current decks from USPCC, and for the last year, have been nearly identical.

They offer: Bicycle and Bee stock, magic and air cushion finishes, smooth or dimpled surfaces.

That's it and anyone that says otherwise is lying.

Cincinnati Tally-Ho's are godly. I have one sealed pack left that I refuse to open.

You left out that recycled stock with the starch finish and veggie-based inks... 

I'm honestly not sure if you're serious or not. 

Eco deck?

[MrMollusk]

Yes all current decks from USPCC, and for the last year, have been nearly identical.

They offer: Bicycle and Bee stock, magic and air cushion finishes, smooth or dimpled surfaces.

That's it and anyone that says otherwise is lying.

Cincinnati Tally-Ho's are godly. I have one sealed pack left that I refuse to open.

You left out that recycled stock with the starch finish and veggie-based inks... 

I'm honestly not sure if you're serious or not. 

Eco deck?

Oops! That's right.
They handled really nice, considering what they're made of.

[Joker and the Thief]

Yes all current decks from USPCC, and for the last year, have been nearly identical.

They offer: Bicycle and Bee stock, magic and air cushion finishes, smooth or dimpled surfaces.

That's it and anyone that says otherwise is lying.

Cincinnati Tally-Ho's are godly. I have one sealed pack left that I refuse to open.

You left out that recycled stock with the starch finish and veggie-based inks... 

I'm honestly not sure if you're serious or not. 

Eco deck?

Oops! That's right.
They handled really nice, considering what they're made of.

I believe S&M v5 had recycled stock and they handled exceptionally.

[MrMollusk]

Yes all current decks from USPCC, and for the last year, have been nearly identical.

They offer: Bicycle and Bee stock, magic and air cushion finishes, smooth or dimpled surfaces.

That's it and anyone that says otherwise is lying.

Cincinnati Tally-Ho's are godly. I have one sealed pack left that I refuse to open.

You left out that recycled stock with the starch finish and veggie-based inks... 

I'm honestly not sure if you're serious or not. 

Eco deck?

Oops! That's right.
They handled really nice, considering what they're made of.

I believe S&M v5 had recycled stock and they handled exceptionally.

Really? I didn't know that.

[Siegismyname]

So can the difference be due to how much finish is applied or how many times it's applied? Just a random thought. Cus there are still some decks that come out of the Erlanger plant that feels different.

[Don Boyer]

Yes all current decks from USPCC, and for the last year, have been nearly identical.

They offer: Bicycle and Bee stock, magic and air cushion finishes, smooth or dimpled surfaces.

That's it and anyone that says otherwise is lying.

Cincinnati Tally-Ho's are godly. I have one sealed pack left that I refuse to open.

You left out that recycled stock with the starch finish and veggie-based inks... 

I'm honestly not sure if you're serious or not. 

Eco deck?

Oops! That's right.
They handled really nice, considering what they're made of.

I believe S&M v5 had recycled stock and they handled exceptionally.

Really? I didn't know that.

Decks made of recycled/organic materials include the Eco Deck and the Archangels.  There's been a few more as well.


Smoke and Mirrors v5 was not made of these materials.  Like all decks, they were made of paper that's partially made of recycled content.  D&D use what's been officially described on their site as an exclusive paper and finish.  I suppose if you can only get it from USPC, it's exclusive, right?


The decks I mentioned specifically use 100% post-consumer-content recycled paper (paper that someone actually used and disposed of for recycling, as opposed to all the leftover unsold newspapers from a newspaper company or something to that effect), inks made with vegetable-based dyes and starch-based finish.

So can the difference be due to how much finish is applied or how many times it's applied? Just a random thought. Cus there are still some decks that come out of the Erlanger plant that feels different.

There's a lot of different variables that come into play with the manufacture of a deck of cards, some of which the company makes no effort to control because of how prohibitively expensive it would be.  I've never seen decks get finish applied more than once.


I wrote about this in the "Fact of Fiction" topic in-depth.  The only info I could add would be that Lee Asher informed me that the amount of pressure used when creating the "paper sandwich" that is the pasteboard used for playing cards is one variable.  When the stock is made, they take two big, HUGE rolls of paper from the paper mill and load them into a machine.  Those layers get pasted together with a glue that's thoroughly mixed with graphite powder - it's the powder that makes the paper opaque, preventing people from seeing the front of the card through the back.  In this pasting, the papers are squished together by big steel rollers that have either a flat surface (for smooth decks, including "ivory" ones) or a bumpy surface (for textured decks, such as "air cushion" or "cambric" or "linoid", etc.).  The pressure used to push these layers together affect how stiff and firm the stock is.


For the rest, read the topic.  Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links

[Siegismyname]

Aren't the stock at USPC made of 3 ply instead of 2 like u described?

[Don Boyer]

Aren't the stock at USPC made of 3 ply instead of 2 like u described?

No.  When the glue hardens, it looks like it's a third layer.  With some luck and a steady hand, you can actually peel the two layers off the glue, which is why they seem like they're three layers.

USPC has videos on YouTube that show the machines and the paper they use.

[MrMollusk]

Yes all current decks from USPCC, and for the last year, have been nearly identical.

They offer: Bicycle and Bee stock, magic and air cushion finishes, smooth or dimpled surfaces.

That's it and anyone that says otherwise is lying.

Cincinnati Tally-Ho's are godly. I have one sealed pack left that I refuse to open.

You left out that recycled stock with the starch finish and veggie-based inks... 

I'm honestly not sure if you're serious or not. 

Eco deck?

Oops! That's right.
They handled really nice, considering what they're made of.

I believe S&M v5 had recycled stock and they handled exceptionally.

Really? I didn't know that.

Decks made of recycled/organic materials include the Eco Deck and the Archangels.  There's been a few more as well.


Smoke and Mirrors v5 was not made of these materials.  Like all decks, they were made of paper that's partially made of recycled content.  D&D use what's been officially described on their site as an exclusive paper and finish.  I suppose if you can only get it from USPC, it's exclusive, right?


The decks I mentioned specifically use 100% post-consumer-content recycled paper (paper that someone actually used and disposed of for recycling, as opposed to all the leftover unsold newspapers from a newspaper company or something to that effect), inks made with vegetable-based dyes and starch-based finish.

So can the difference be due to how much finish is applied or how many times it's applied? Just a random thought. Cus there are still some decks that come out of the Erlanger plant that feels different.

There's a lot of different variables that come into play with the manufacture of a deck of cards, some of which the company makes no effort to control because of how prohibitively expensive it would be.  I've never seen decks get finish applied more than once.


I wrote about this in the "Fact of Fiction" topic in-depth.  The only info I could add would be that Lee Asher informed me that the amount of pressure used when creating the "paper sandwich" that is the pasteboard used for playing cards is one variable.  When the stock is made, they take two big, HUGE rolls of paper from the paper mill and load them into a machine.  Those layers get pasted together with a glue that's thoroughly mixed with graphite powder - it's the powder that makes the paper opaque, preventing people from seeing the front of the card through the back.  In this pasting, the papers are squished together by big steel rollers that have either a flat surface (for smooth decks, including "ivory" ones) or a bumpy surface (for textured decks, such as "air cushion" or "cambric" or "linoid", etc.).  The pressure used to push these layers together affect how stiff and firm the stock is.


For the rest, read the topic.  Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links

Any idea on how they incorporate the starch as a finish?
I can't imagine that they would be able to create a permanent finish with starch without using some other chemical or binder. Or is that privy to the USPC?

[xela]

The Eco deck is not made of recycled material. It's made out of 100% recyclable material. Big difference.

The S&M decks had the tuck cases made of recycled material.

[Don Boyer]

The Eco deck is not made of recycled material. It's made out of 100% recyclable material. Big difference.

The S&M decks had the tuck cases made of recycled material.

I knew there was something I was leaving out...  Thanks.


Do you have the full list of decks made with this material?