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Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.

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Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« on: August 06, 2012, 08:17:12 PM »
 

xela

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I always face palm when I hear someone talking about this imaginary thing as if it is something that matters.

As of today, there is no proof of any kind that heavy ink saturation affects handling, durability, softness or performance.

The ink that is put on a deck is microscopic. I've heard people say that heavy ink saturation increases deck thickness, which is insane, because ink doesn't sit on top of the stock. It bleeds into the paper, which is why it doesn't rub off. Does it bleed all the way through, modifying the actual stock of the cards? No!

Now the fact is, if you drench a piece of printer paper in black ink, that paper will feel completely different than an unsaturated one. The difference is almost negligible, but it's there. However, paper is significantly less thick than playing card paste board.

So when someone tells you that the Tendril handles worse because of all the black ink, please, tell that person they have no idea what they are talking about.

What you should take away from this: Ink saturation has never been proven, it has never been a fact, it has never been tested in any capacity other than random observational anecdotes. Can ink saturation affect handling? Certainly, there is a possibility that it can, as with any unproven hypothesis. However, in the worst case scenario, the effect that it has is entirely negligible for anyone performing with the cards. There is also zero correlation between ink and durability. Durability has entirely to do with how you handle the deck, your hands, storage, humidity, card stock, coating, dimpling; ink is insignificant, especially since it is put on the cards before the coating is. Heavy saturation of a deck can affect deck weight by a fraction of an amount, but this has still never been tested, because no one has printed two decks where one is covered in only black ink and the other containing no ink at all. Heavy ink to stock ratio can make a deck feel slightly differently, but again it's not a better or worse sort of thing, it's just slightly different. We're talking a barely noticeable difference that is entirely nonexistent when it comes to performance.

If you still want to believe ink saturation has an affect on handling, know that you are basing your thoughts 100% on anecdotal evidence that did not undergo any type of legitimate testing.

And if it's anecdotal evidence you want, then listen to me, I own hundreds of decks. I use and abuse a lot of them. The fully saturated black decks don't start clumping any faster than the white ones.

My theory is innocent until proven guilty. In this case, judging a deck based on ink saturation is just nonsensical. This is coming from a guy who produced a deck that was lauded for its low saturation. I tossed one of my Tendril decks into the trash after I used it to the point of no return. It took me about two weeks. I toss a Vortex deck into the trash every two weeks as well, after it's used beyond acceptability.

That is all.  :)
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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2012, 08:40:40 PM »
 

RandyButterfield

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Bravo Alex!

With the ORNATES I'm starting to get a lot of comments like "that much ink on Aristocrat Stock.......??!!!!". After years of dealing with all types of printed materials I have never seen ink saturation affect a thick stock, and that's even without the black glue stuff that USPCC adds to the middle of the 2 paper stocks. I'm not an experienced flourisher so I haven't had the confidence to debate with someone who is a flourisher and questions the ink to stock ratio. I really don't see how ink density could change much at all, and I'm glad to see that someone with so much experience have a similar theory.

thanks, Randy

 

Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2012, 08:48:48 PM »
 

xela

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Bravo Alex!

With the ORNATES I'm starting to get a lot of comments like "that much ink on Aristocrat Stock.......??!!!!". After years of dealing with all types of printed materials I have never seen ink saturation affect a thick stock, and that's even without the black glue stuff that USPCC adds to the middle of the 2 paper stocks. I'm not an experienced flourisher so I haven't had the confidence to debate with someone who is a flourisher and questions the ink to stock ratio. I really don't see how ink density could change much at all, and I'm glad to see that someone with so much experience have a similar theory.

thanks, Randy

Experienced flourishers laugh at us folks who complain about super-tiny, insignificant, handling variations. When you are good, you are good with pretty much anything. I do recall people moaning about ratios with your deck too, but trust me your deck will handle just as well as any other one, and this imaginary attribute needs to leave the arena because it's nonexistant.

Let's put it this way.

"I can do a sybil with this white deck, but I cannot do it with this black one!" said nobody, ever.
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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 09:10:38 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Hey Alex, thanks for this interesting read! I was wondering if you could add it to the Facts or Fiction thread and update it as well? I find it extremely interesting as well, yet it hasn't been updated in a while. In case you're wondering what I'm talking about, here it is:
http://aethercards.com/discourse/playing-card-plethora/playing-cards-fact-or-fiction-myths-debunked-here/60/
 

Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2012, 02:06:41 PM »
 

Evan

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I completely disagree with you, Alex.
 

Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2012, 02:38:04 PM »
 

loldudex2

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I completely disagree with you, Alex.
Could you please give reasoning supporting why you say that? Saying that you disagree with him seems pointless unless you give examples of decks that prove your stance. Tell how decks on what stocks you've handled, and how much inks they have, and how that affects the handling compared to one with more/ less ink.
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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2012, 02:48:07 PM »
 

Russell CircleCityCards

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A card that is all black has exactly the same amount of ink as a card that is all yellow.


This conversation is over.
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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2012, 02:57:11 PM »
 

xela

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I completely disagree with you, Alex.

That's your choice, but you are completely wrong.  ;)
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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2012, 03:09:03 PM »
 

Evan

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I completely disagree with you, Alex.

That's your choice, but you are completely wrong.  ;)
You say it hasn't been proven that it exists but it also hasn't been proven that it doesn't exist, so how do you know if I'm wrong?
 

Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2012, 03:22:12 PM »
 

Evan

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Pip Squeek is working with USPCC to confirm the truth soon.
 

Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2012, 03:29:46 PM »
 

xela

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I completely disagree with you, Alex.

That's your choice, but you are completely wrong.  ;)
You say it hasn't been proven that it exists but it also hasn't been proven that it doesn't exist, so how do you know if I'm wrong?

All evidence points to it not existing, it's just something someone made up for funzies. I have yet to see anyone in the printing industry, ever, talk about ink saturation affecting the paper.

It's as stupid as going to a car dealership and claiming the paint they used affects the aerodynamics.
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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2012, 03:31:29 PM »
 

Robert Butler

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I've noticed this topic is now making its way to Facebook.  Let’s not get ahead of ourselves with this topic.  Pip Squeek is working with the USPCC Press Department to verify this theory’s truth.  With all due respect no one is in a position to say for certain if the ink creates physical changes to a cards stock.  I will update everyone as soon as I hear the results of the investigation. 

Thanks
 

Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2012, 03:36:34 PM »
 

xela

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I've noticed this topic is now making its way to Facebook.  Let’s not get ahead of ourselves with this topic.  Pip Squeek is working with the USPCC Press Department to verify this theory’s truth.  With all due respect no one is in a position to say for certain if the ink creates physical changes to a cards stock.  I will update everyone as soon as I hear the results of the investigation. 

Thanks

USPCC is not launching an investigation for you. Odds are you'l get an inconclusive answer from some guy in the department who doesn't want to be fired for saying the wrong thing.

No one is getting ahead of themselves. Russell is completely right in stating that color of ink has nothing to do with amount of ink.

Folks, cards have existed for hundreds of years, and this whole ratio think didn't start until what, a year ago? Stop spreading misinformation, and telling people that quality products are worse than they are because of things like this.

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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2012, 03:46:34 PM »
 

Robert Butler

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Do you have this inability of being wrong or do you just have issues with your ego?  I'll post Bill's reply for the people to see for themselves and let them make up their own minds.  Get a grip man but don’t feed people your beliefs and expect it to be the truth without any research or proof.  I will keep in touch with the USPCC because I want to be sure the truth is found.  If I'm wrong then I'll openly admit it and remove it from our archives. 

Here is some food for thought though.  How is it that stocks can be effected by sitting in the ware houses by humidity (indirect moisture), but directly applied ink cannot?  I don’t really want to get into an argument here but I want a chance to get some info from a reliable source rather than squabbling back and forth based solely on opinions.  I don't think it’s wrong to voice your opinion but I think it’s clear that your trying to apply it as the actual truth.

Thanks

 

Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2012, 05:25:34 PM »
 

xela

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I don't think it’s wrong to voice your opinion but I think it’s clear that your trying to apply it as the actual truth.

Thanks

I'm not the one who has a playing card archive that rates decks based on this imaginary trait. I am also not the one who has reviewers review decks based on this.

You crapped all over one of the best deck reviewers on YouTube and linked to another reviewer, claiming they are the epitome of good information, only because you feed them that information. That information is completely wrong half the time. Here are some things that are huge mistakes:

- This reviewer stated that the Brimstones handle badly because of the saturation of ink, but in a different review lauded the Revision 1 decks for handling well, which is baffling because they have an identical amount of ink on them.

- This reviewer claims that the made up finishes companies make are a real thing, even when the company itself denies it.

- This reviewer never fact checks anything despite having direct access to things.


The point here isn't that you have a hypothesis, if that's all that was, that's a healthy thing to have. It pushes boundaries, it forces people to think about things they wouldn't have otherwise.

The problem is that you are spreading complete misinformation as fact, and then on top of that you are lambasting people who you think are inaccurate.

On the PipSqueek blog, you guys claim Linoid is out of retirement. Since when? Why isn't this bigger news? Is it because no one else cares? I doubt it. Is it because USPCC reinvented an entire finish that only a foreign company can use? Doubt it. Is it because Linoid is still not a real thing, and the USPCC allows you to put the name of any finish you want on any deck now? My bet is that.

I'm glad you are contacting USPCC for their input. However, this is after you spent an entire year telling people that ink-to-stock ratio is fact, rather than a hypothesis or fiction.

The first deck I ever owned, which has its edges torn, it has some crimps and bends, and is covered in hand-dirt after three years of usage, still fans perfectly. It's a Shadow Masters deck, about as saturated as they get.

If your fans are suffering, I can offer you a number of reasons as to why, none of those reasons are because of the ink. Most of the time it's because you don't know how to fan.

Also, humidity affects cards because constant wetness warps card stock. Ink is not wetness. If you were able to remove the coating on top of a card, the ink wouldn't drip off.

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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2012, 07:13:46 PM »
 

DelMagic

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Does anyone know if the inks used to print playing cards by USPCC are aqueous solutions (water-based) or solvent soluttions (organic materials)?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 07:14:42 PM by DelMagic »
 

Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2012, 07:33:03 PM »
 

Robert Butler

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Does anyone know if the inks used to print playing cards by USPCC are aqueous solutions (water-based) or solvent soluttions (organic materials)?

I'm not sure Dell but you can email the USPCC and ask them.  They should tell you with no problems. 

I don't think it’s wrong to voice your opinion but I think it’s clear that your trying to apply it as the actual truth.

Thanks

I'm not the one who has a playing card archive that rates decks based on this imaginary trait. I am also not the one who has reviewers review decks based on this.

You crapped all over one of the best deck reviewers on YouTube and linked to another reviewer, claiming they are the epitome of good information, only because you feed them that information. That information is completely wrong half the time. Here are some things that are huge mistakes:

- This reviewer stated that the Brimstones handle badly because of the saturation of ink, but in a different review lauded the Revision 1 decks for handling well, which is baffling because they have an identical amount of ink on them.

- This reviewer claims that the made up finishes companies make are a real thing, even when the company itself denies it.

- This reviewer never fact checks anything despite having direct access to things.


The point here isn't that you have a hypothesis, if that's all that was, that's a healthy thing to have. It pushes boundaries, it forces people to think about things they wouldn't have otherwise.

The problem is that you are spreading complete misinformation as fact, and then on top of that you are lambasting people who you think are inaccurate.

On the PipSqueek blog, you guys claim Linoid is out of retirement. Since when? Why isn't this bigger news? Is it because no one else cares? I doubt it. Is it because USPCC reinvented an entire finish that only a foreign company can use? Doubt it. Is it because Linoid is still not a real thing, and the USPCC allows you to put the name of any finish you want on any deck now? My bet is that.

I'm glad you are contacting USPCC for their input. However, this is after you spent an entire year telling people that ink-to-stock ratio is fact, rather than a hypothesis or fiction.

The first deck I ever owned, which has its edges torn, it has some crimps and bends, and is covered in hand-dirt after three years of usage, still fans perfectly. It's a Shadow Masters deck, about as saturated as they get.

If your fans are suffering, I can offer you a number of reasons as to why, none of those reasons are because of the ink. Most of the time it's because you don't know how to fan.

Also, humidity affects cards because constant wetness warps card stock. Ink is not wetness. If you were able to remove the coating on top of a card, the ink wouldn't drip off.



I’m starting to think your rant is more about you not liking Pip Squeek than this ink to stock ratio.  I didn’t come here to kick dirt in your face so I’m not sure why you’re doing it to me when all I’m trying to do is clarify something before you try to write it in stone.  I think we all need to be objective at times and in a healthy way.  This angry method of yours where you attack someone is just silly.  Your community is too good for this kind of nonsense that you’re considering quality conversation on the playing card Plethora.  I won’t be a part of it any longer; I’m leaving Aether for good.  At least UC is objective and we can all trade ideas without dragging someone through the mud.  I created the Ink to stock ratio to better understand how playing cards work and I will continue to try to expand on the understanding of playing cards.  It’s my passion and a life style that I live and share with many others. 

Pip Squeek has no intentions of falsifying any information on our site and if proven false, I will correct the misinformation.  Thanks for the time to explain and I hope to catch all you other Aether members on Facebook sometime in the futures so we can all continue sharing this wonderful culture together! 

Peace
 

Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2012, 07:47:06 PM »
 

xela

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I’m starting to think your rant is more about you not liking Pip Squeek than this ink to stock ratio.  I didn’t come here to kick dirt in your face so I’m not sure why you’re doing it to me when all I’m trying to do is clarify something before you try to write it in stone.  I think we all need to be objective at times and in a healthy way.  This angry method of yours where you attack someone is just silly.  Your community is too good for this kind of nonsense that you’re considering quality conversation on the playing card Plethora.  I won’t be a part of it any longer; I’m leaving Aether for good.

Nothing to do with Pip Squeek, in fact ink:stock ratio has nothing to do with that site, it's your invention, and you made it up on a whim. This has everything to do with people that review decks, though, as well as the fact that this false trait can hurt sales for decks.

Also, no one attacked you or kicked dirt in your face. You and your site were not mentioned by name, and it was not even implied that you guys are the primary source of this invention. I'm not sure why you found it necessary to make it about you. You started this rumor a year ago, and it has now spread to many facets of the community, and that's not a good thing.

Quote
At least UC is objective and we can all trade ideas without dragging someone through the mud.  I created the Ink to stock ratio to better understand how playing cards work and I will continue to try to expand on the understanding of playing cards.  It’s my passion and a life style that I live and share with many others. 

Peace

Oh please, don't put UC up on a pedestal. I think it's pretty well known that you think very lowly of the people there as well as the site. I have so many quotes from your PMs to me where you just trash people on that site. There are even posts on UC of you trashing them publicly (you can delete them if you like, but everyone there has seen them already). I think it's pretty obvious that you can't go around spitting in someone's face for a year and then act all cuddly with them when you need them to give you traffic. At least I don't go on there begging them for support after I have publicly trashed the site in the past (before CBJ made everything spiffy again). How low do you go?

As for you leaving the forums, going through your posts immediately indicates that you have contributed nothing to the community aside from incessant self-promotion.

You didn't even post here for ages until you decided this thread, which is about a false rumor, was actually about you.

Also, stop being so awkwardly paranoid. I often post threads from the forums to Facebook, no need to send your goons to cry about being attacked in response. I don't think anyone initially reading this post thought of you or your site until you brought it up.

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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2012, 12:03:34 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Does anyone know if the inks used to print playing cards by USPCC are aqueous solutions (water-based) or solvent soluttions (organic materials)?

They used organic inks made from vegetables for the Bicycle Eco Edition deck.  For the remainder of their decks, I'd think they're either water-based or petroleum-based.  I'm inclined to say petroleum, because the inks I've seen used on printing presses tend to be thick and gooey, and not terribly aqueous in appearance; it more closely resembles oil paint from a tube or motor grease from a can.  Press inks are applied to the plate with big metal rollers and pressure, rather than being squirted on the page like your inkjet printer; they need to stick to the plate in the crevices in order to make an ink transfer onto paper in just the right places.

But that's just a hypothesis, so don't take my word for it - for all I know, their ink is made of pixie wings, angel hair, orc nail clippings and unicorn juice.  If you see any bald angels or freshly-manicured orcs, let me know!  :))  (If you find freshly-squeezed unicorns, I'd prefer to NOT know, thanks...)

Either way, I don't believe they're using organic inks for all of their decks.  The odd special project, perhaps, but not in general.  Water inks, while possible, are unlikely.


Robert: hey, bro, you need to lighten up a bit.  Try some decaf, breathe, take a yoga class, something...

You believe ink-to-stock ratio is "not disproven", but you haven't exactly proved it, either.  You're talking to USPC about what the story is.  Guess what?  Even if they know, they may not be inclined to tell you, because they try to protect their trade secrets at least a little bit.

I've seen totally black decks that performed excellently, and I've seen predominantly white decks that were total crap - that alone might punch some holes into your hypothesis.  I'm sure we've all (or most of us have) seen both conditions I just described in some of the decks in their collections.

If it's true, great; if it's not true, equally as great.

But until the time comes that it's proven one way or another in a systematic way using scientific method and proper testing procedures, DO NOT PUSH THE IDEA OF INK-TO-STOCK RATIO AS A FACT.  If it hasn't been proven, it's not yet in the realm of "fact" but remains a hypothesis.

And it's completely true that USPC currently offers only two finishes - "standard" and Magic Finish.  At one time in history there may have been unique formulas to the deck finishes, but these days the names are just marketing tools.  I've seen the price sheets for deck orders.  There is no mention of Air Cushion, Ivory, Cambric, Linoid, Smooth, Linen, High, or any other name besides Magic Finish.

And Air Cushion versus Smooth?  The difference isn't the actual laminate placed on top of the ink and paper - it's whether or not the paper itself is smooth or textured.  At one time in history, methods existed for placing the "dimpling" on the paper using the finish, but those haven't been in use for a few decades.  Jerry's Nuggets are a prime example of the old method - one side is smooth, the other is dimpled, and it was done by using a different set of cloth rollers for each side.  Cloth rollers are playing card-making history, just like the actual original finishes that bore all those names I mentioned.

The biggest reason for the name switch is two-fold.  One, it saves the company money to only need one finish for almost every deck they make.  Two, modern finishes are chemically superior to most of the old finishes that were being used, providing better handling characteristics at a better value.

But that's just my hypothesis.  Go ask Bill and see what he says.  Tell him I said hello.
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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2012, 12:30:43 AM »
 

jmrock

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Damn boys... chill for a minute... when someone has some accurate information supported with evidence we'll all have the answer... Hate to see two great guys like Randy and Alex battle it out like that... Sheriff Don, I blame you... Ever since you hung up your star and six shooter to moderate the forum, these ruckuses have been sprouting up all over the place...  ;)

Edit: Actually re-read and saw that it was Robert & Alex... Randy & Alex seem to be on the same page... So I don't know Robert too well, but nevertheless, try not to fight boys...
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 12:33:53 AM by jmrock »
 

Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2012, 02:05:57 AM »
 

DeckReview

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In my honest opinion, I also agree that ink to stock ratio is also a myth.

Although I am guilty of using the term on a few of my reviews, I really genuinely believe the whole ink theory is false.

The Karnival Inferno being a good example, fans better compared to the white ghosts even though the ghost deck has less "ink saturation". The stock of the inferno also feels stiffer than the actuators which supposedly had a moderate amount of ink saturation.

I only used the term to follow suit what my rivals were saying to make my videos sound more complete. In reality I was just rolling along with the theory.

I will admit although not related to the topic in hand, I did make up the metallic ink cling theory. It's very likely I honestly believed that it's true but I know I made it up. I thought up of the theory and belief when I noticed when my viper tally ho literally did have lots more cling than my black tiger decks.

All in all, Robert's "ink to stock ratio theory" holds no ground compared to my "metallic ink cling theory". It's been reported by many, many users that the Vipers did indeed fan worst than the tigers yet they both used the same stock and finish. The only difference between the two are the use of metallic ink on the vipers.

Robert, your idea behind the ink saturation theory is very far-fetched yet you mock my more logical and practically users proven metallic ink clinging idea. I guess there are some things you can only feel versus research regardless of specs.
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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2012, 04:52:42 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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DelMagic: I just discovered that the Bicycle Archangels were also manufactured using the same process as the Eco Edition, with renewable sources for the paper, vegetable-based inks and a starch-based finish.  So that's TWO decks in the marketplace...

JMRock: whoever said I hung up my star and six-shooter?  Perhaps when I go to bed, most of the time...  :))

DeckReview: YES, there IS indeed practical proof that the metallic ink decks made BEFORE the advent of Magic Finish did suffer in performance.  MF was practically created as a direct response to that issue.  Not only did the Vipers take a bit of a hit, but who remembers all those early Diavoli decks with metallic ink and crappy performance?  Alchemist, Alchemist X, Phoenix...

First deck to use the finish: the metallic-inked Gold Arcane deck.
First deck to use "Magic Finish" on the box: the metallic-inked Bicycle Gargoyles.
First deck to use "Performance Coating" on the box: the slightly metallic-inked Artifice deck.
First smooth-paper deck to use Magic Finish: CARC's Bee Erdnase 1902 black/SILVER Acorn Back in Ivory Finish.

The only non-metallic "first" for Magic Finish was for first deck to use neither "traditional" name for Magic Finish, nor any of USPC's stock finish names: the non-metallic White Arrcos, which called it "Premium Finish".

But back to the point - the only known and confirmed ink factor to affect deck performance in any way would be use of a metallic ink, which is "neutralized" with the use of Magic Finish on the deck.  Pre-MF decks with metal ink had relatively poor performance, while newer metal-ink decks coated with MF have excellent performance in comparison to most decks on the market, not just the metal-ink pre-MF ones.
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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2012, 08:10:47 AM »
 

Utterfool

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I am sorry for posting here.

I can tell that some tempers are getting a little high and I do not wish to fan the fire (ok maybe a little)

But I have found this thread so amusing, that I have to comment.
The thing that is so beautiful about this thread is the anger that has come out of it.
and this is why.
It all boils down to faith Vs. fact.
You see I am a scientist by trade. I work in the technology dept. of a pharmaceutical company. I do deviation management and process improvement. I spend my days (nights actually) investigating and searching fact.
The thing you see in a meeting is when the meeting is based on facts nobody ever really gets that angry. Sure there is frustration that things are not going the way we would wish.
The time anger comes in is when faith gets involved. A manager will get angry when he has faith that a system (that he knows is poorly designed) will work, and it doesn't. If you approach that manager with fact they will often be angry but usually not quite as angry (sometimes they may have to vent the anger towards their underlings). When you go to that manager with faith in an idea that you think will work better when the managers idea fails, both parties usually end up furious and someone has to come to stop it from escalating.

My point here is no facts have been given on either side of the argument, it has all been based on opinion and faith. In fact few posts really in this thread bear any fact, even down to the "proven" metallic ink theory.
I will say Don may have showed us some facts in his last post interspersed with opinion and faith (although without data, I can not vouch for the validity of what he has said)
And that is what I really loved about this post (what makes me love and hate humanity at the same time)
People got so angry over their faith in something as simple as do cards handle better or worse when they have a lot of ink. (even causing someone to rage quit)
And I know, I know, it isn't as little to people in the industry who's sales might be hurt by such rumors, opinion, and faith.
But it is still so grand to look at these first world problems.
I thank you and love you guys.
I really am sorry if this sounds like a huge attack. It is not meant as such. It is just an observation.

and by the way
"Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing"
actually it IS a thing. Every card has a measurable ratio of the amount of ink compared to the amount of stock (Fact)
Now what might not be a thing is
"High ink to stock ratio makes cards perform worse" (until proven otherwise - opinion)

Thank you and Good Night
 

Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2012, 09:05:20 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I am sorry for posting here.

I can tell that some tempers are getting a little high and I do not wish to fan the fire (ok maybe a little)

But I have found this thread so amusing, that I have to comment.
The thing that is so beautiful about this thread is the anger that has come out of it.
and this is why.
It all boils down to faith Vs. fact.
You see I am a scientist by trade. I work in the technology dept. of a pharmaceutical company. I do deviation management and process improvement. I spend my days (nights actually) investigating and searching fact.
The thing you see in a meeting is when the meeting is based on facts nobody ever really gets that angry. Sure there is frustration that things are not going the way we would wish.
The time anger comes in is when faith gets involved. A manager will get angry when he has faith that a system (that he knows is poorly designed) will work, and it doesn't. If you approach that manager with fact they will often be angry but usually not quite as angry (sometimes they may have to vent the anger towards their underlings). When you go to that manager with faith in an idea that you think will work better when the managers idea fails, both parties usually end up furious and someone has to come to stop it from escalating.

My point here is no facts have been given on either side of the argument, it has all been based on opinion and faith. In fact few posts really in this thread bear any fact, even down to the "proven" metallic ink theory.
I will say Don may have showed us some facts in his last post interspersed with opinion and faith (although without data, I can not vouch for the validity of what he has said)
And that is what I really loved about this post (what makes me love and hate humanity at the same time)
People got so angry over their faith in something as simple as do cards handle better or worse when they have a lot of ink. (even causing someone to rage quit)
And I know, I know, it isn't as little to people in the industry who's sales might be hurt by such rumors, opinion, and faith.
But it is still so grand to look at these first world problems.
I thank you and love you guys.
I really am sorry if this sounds like a huge attack. It is not meant as such. It is just an observation.

and by the way
"Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing"
actually it IS a thing. Every card has a measurable ratio of the amount of ink compared to the amount of stock (Fact)
Now what might not be a thing is
"High ink to stock ratio makes cards perform worse" (until proven otherwise - opinion)

Thank you and Good Night


First, you don't need to apologize for such a well thought-out post!


The anger issues stem from something much deeper than this simple post - there's history there.  I'm keeping mum beyond that.


Me, I never have a problem with being corrected when I'm wrong - I'm actually grateful, since I care more about the truth than silly ego issues.


I'll grant that I haven't been applying strict scientific method, but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence about metallic inks and performance.  USPC literally created Magic Finish as a response to this problem - and it's original "pre-release" code name was "Performance Coating", a name that the first company to experiment with it opted to keep when it was no longer considered experimental: Ellusionist.  Personally, I prefer that name - try convincing a spectator that your deck isn't a trick deck when it has the word "magic" on it!


The finish stuff - not anecdotal.  I've seen the price lists and what's offered to deck designers.


The paper stuff - some proof, some anecdote.  There seems to be more art than science to it, if you take what USPC says about it as the whole truth!  Something that's known for certain: paper quality can vary even within the same print run, and paper quality has been on the decline as the industry uses more and more recycled content.  Fewer new fibers, lower quality paper.


The ink-to-stock thing - again, anecdotal.  I've experienced extremes of performance in decks having varying amounts of ink, with no consistent relationship between ink and stock.  I can speak with a little authority based on the size of my collection:  about 500+ unique deck styles, about 1,300 decks in total.  (And all that since December of 2010...  Pity my bank account...)  :))  And I've opened and used nearly every unique deck I've obtained.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 09:06:24 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Ink to stock ratio: It's not a thing.
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2012, 09:38:27 AM »
 

Paul Carpenter

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I can speak only from my personal, anecdotal experience with the decks I own. My worst handling deck is the Theory11 original sentinels. I think they used super glue as the coating of that deck.

With that exception out of the way, I'd say that my most clumpy, poorest handling decks are generally the D&D decks. Not sure why, but (though I love the design) the Clip Joints and Ace Fultons seem to get rather clumpy in a very short amount of time. 20-30 minutes versus perhaps several hours of constant use. My Fantastiques came out of the box with a bad crown to the cards, quite warped. Those are all predominantly white decks with relatively low ink.

The best handling decks I have are both black. Again, this is just to my own hands and environment, I can't speak for you. My Tally-Ho Vipers and my Tendril deck have been smooth and fannable for very long amounts of time. I have one Tendril decks that I've used multiple times a week since I got the shipment of them months ago, and they still fan very nicely. And recall I live in terribly humid south Florida.

As I've gotten a little more experience with different decks, my primary concern now is stock, but only from the point of view of the thickness and snap. I love the stock I did Tendril on and will most likely use that again. Magic finish is a given, I honestly don't think you'd pick anything else when designing a deck. I haven't thought about ink levels once when working on Aurum.

USPCC has generally narrowed the choices down to the point that pretty much any combo will work out fine. Choose magic finish, pick the stock you like the snappiness of and move right along.

And really, has "poor handling" really stopped any of you from buying a deck? I'd wager not. :)
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