Aristocrat Club Special Stingers, No Casino Logo.

[Card Player]

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=181213949090

Saw these on eBay. I've seen aristocrat stingers before but not without the casino logo. These are Cincinnati, OH Decks. I picked up a few.

[Don Boyer]

I've seen something similar, in the sense that I think I know what these are.

Bill Schildman at USPC gave me a gift once that include a little over a brick of Bee Diamond Backs.  They were standard index and in a basic Bee box, but they had barcode cards in them like these decks do.  They were made of the thicker, casino-grade stock and were traditionally cut, something they haven't done with mass-produced decks-of-the-line in roughly three decades.  I believe that these, like mine, are sample decks that USPC distributes to buyers from casino companies in order to evaluate their products.

[Card Player]

I've seen something similar, in the sense that I think I know what these are.

Bill Schildman at USPC gave me a gift once that include a little over a brick of Bee Diamond Backs.  They were standard index and in a basic Bee box, but they had barcode cards in them like these decks do.  They were made of the thicker, casino-grade stock and were traditionally cut, something they haven't done with mass-produced decks-of-the-line in roughly three decades.  I believe that these, like mine, are sample decks that USPC distributes to buyers from casino companies in order to evaluate their products.

From what your saying, they sound like you have to know somebody high on the chain at a casino or USPCC. If they are only samples, most likely they only come in one color. They are only being sold by one person on eBay. Same seller on each auction.

I've seen the aristocrat full no border backs with standard aristocrat branding before. I think FullBoatDealer sold them in blue and red. Then they sold out of the red and only have blue. Never in a stinger back.

These look really good for gambling slights and demonstrations. I've handled Foxwoods canceled aristocrat club special decks before. The stock is thicker then any decks I've held.

[Don Boyer]

From what your saying, they sound like you have to know somebody high on the chain at a casino or USPCC. If they are only samples, most likely they only come in one color. They are only being sold by one person on eBay. Same seller on each auction.

I've seen the aristocrat full no border backs with standard aristocrat branding before. I think FullBoatDealer sold them in blue and red. Then they sold out of the red and only have blue. Never in a stinger back.

These look really good for gambling slights and demonstrations. I've handled Foxwoods canceled aristocrat club special decks before. The stock is thicker then any decks I've held.

It's not a matter of knowing somebody - at least I don't think it is.  I'm sure there's enough of them in circulation by now that it's not that big a deal to lay hands on a few packs.  And they usually come in common colors, red and blue being among the most popular.  These Aristos in particular were definitely aimed for casino sales, since they were made with jumbo Tech-Art faces.

As far as gambling demos, wouldn't a borderless deck be better?  Stingers were created as an alternative to Diamond Backs to make certain gambling sleights MORE difficult, not less.

Aristo stock is actually not the "heaviest" they have.  It might be thicker, but by weight, Bee Casino is heavier and thus more firm.  The pressure used when making the paperboard makes the difference - Bee Casino is made under greter pressure, resulting in a stock that's thinner and Aristo but more firm.  Tally Ho decks have been using Aristo stock for a few years now - but these days, who knows what they're using for anything anymore.  I haven't seen new Aristocrats since the mass-market reprints and I haven't seen new Tally Ho decks since the transition period in 2009.  Granted, I don't buy or see many casino decks, but still...

[Card Player]

From what your saying, they sound like you have to know somebody high on the chain at a casino or USPCC. If they are only samples, most likely they only come in one color. They are only being sold by one person on eBay. Same seller on each auction.

I've seen the aristocrat full no border backs with standard aristocrat branding before. I think FullBoatDealer sold them in blue and red. Then they sold out of the red and only have blue. Never in a stinger back.

These look really good for gambling slights and demonstrations. I've handled Foxwoods canceled aristocrat club special decks before. The stock is thicker then any decks I've held.

It's not a matter of knowing somebody - at least I don't think it is.  I'm sure there's enough of them in circulation by now that it's not that big a deal to lay hands on a few packs.  And they usually come in common colors, red and blue being among the most popular.  These Aristos in particular were definitely aimed for casino sales, since they were made with jumbo Tech-Art faces.

As far as gambling demos, wouldn't a borderless deck be better?  Stingers were created as an alternative to Diamond Backs to make certain gambling sleights MORE difficult, not less.

Aristo stock is actually not the "heaviest" they have.  It might be thicker, but by weight, Bee Casino is heavier and thus more firm.  The pressure used when making the paperboard makes the difference - Bee Casino is made under greter pressure, resulting in a stock that's thinner and Aristo but more firm.  Tally Ho decks have been using Aristo stock for a few years now - but these days, who knows what they're using for anything anymore.  I haven't seen new Aristocrats since the mass-market reprints and I haven't seen new Tally Ho decks since the transition period in 2009.  Granted, I don't buy or see many casino decks, but still...

I haven't seen aristocrat stingers with aristo branding anywhere but this eBay seller. I've had my eye on the aristocrat club specials red and blue no border for the last 2 years. Never seen these before. I'm sure I would have if there were a few in circulation. These are dated Dec 2003. This is the first time I've ever seen them like this.

You would know better then I about border no border slights.

I'm almost positive these casino aristocrats are either as thick or thicker then Bee's. I know many custom decks claim to use Bee stock. There seems to be a difference in actual casino bee stock and just bee stock. The Foxwoods aristocrats I handled were thicker then anything Ive ever held.

[Don Boyer]

I haven't seen aristocrat stingers with aristo branding anywhere but this eBay seller. I've had my eye on the aristocrat club specials red and blue no border for the last 2 years. Never seen these before. I'm sure I would have if there were a few in circulation. These are dated Dec 2003. This is the first time I've ever seen them like this.

You would know better then I about border no border slights.

I'm almost positive these casino aristocrats are either as thick or thicker then Bee's. I know many custom decks claim to use Bee stock. There seems to be a difference in actual casino bee stock and just bee stock. The Foxwoods aristocrats I handled were thicker then anything Ive ever held.

Technically, these aren't Stingers.  Stingers get the name from having the Bee logo in the little ovals in the corners instead of the four suit pips found on the ovals in this deck.  But they're made to give an appearance similar to Bee Stingers.  It's just USPC capitalizing on a good idea across brands.

Thick stock is a hallmark of the Aristocrat brand - but it's not as stiff or as heavy as Bee Casino.  As far as custom decks are concerned, there is no more Bee standard stock - it's all Bicycle or Bee Casino.

But back to the point, the actual weight of the paper in Bee Casino is heavier than Aristocrat.  Aristocrat is thicker because it's not compressed as tightly as Bee Casino stock when it's pressed together from two paper layers with glue in-between.  That additional compression also gives the Bee Casino paper that extra stiffness that's characteristic of a Bee Casino deck.

Does USPC still make Aristocrat, Bee standard, Tally Ho, etc.?  Sort of, kind of, not really.  They're not controlling the stock thickness/weight as tightly as they used to - they don't even measure the paper using grams per square inch (gsm) anymore.  They make the paper however it suits their needs for a given product, and that's it.  Custom deck orders are given two choices, as mentioned above, and measured strictly by thickness.  Those stocks come in a range of thickness, and you don't get to pick a specific thickness; it comes out how it comes out, that's it.  The thickness ranges even overlap - a thick Bicycle stock can actually be thicker than a thin Bee Casino stock.  Sounds crazy, but they're literally holding all of the cards, so they get to make the rules.

[Card Player]

Technically, these aren't Stingers.  Stingers get the name from having the Bee logo in the little ovals in the corners instead of the four suit pips found on the ovals in this deck.  But they're made to give an appearance similar to Bee Stingers.  It's just USPC capitalizing on a good idea across brands.

Technically they are. The name originated from Bee Stingers. Since they're a product of USPCC and USPCC is putting the name Stinger on the deck, then that's what they are.

In terms of branding, few people in 2003 aside from those in casino's and USPCC knew the name "stinger" in association with the casino faded border. Sure casino goers saw the cards at casino's but would they have cared to know the name. Its just a name USPCC stuck with to describe the faded border design to casino's looking to order cards. It was probably not till T11 came out with Bee stingers that the general card user knew it was known as a stinger.

I thought it was unique to have a casino quality aristocrat stinger deck of cards without the casino brand for my own personal use. No black jack markings, No cancellations & hard to find. At a time in the industry when a handful of producers are using the "not intended for public use" claim to sell more decks, these were actually never meant for public use (casino samples).

I'd like to know when was the stinger concept first introduced to casino's? If these are sample decks, might they be "some of the first" produced by USPCC or at the very least the first aristocrat casino stingers?

[Don Boyer]

Technically they are. The name originated from Bee Stingers. Since they're a product of USPCC and USPCC is putting the name Stinger on the deck, then that's what they are.

In terms of branding, few people in 2003 aside from those in casino's and USPCC knew the name "stinger" in association with the casino faded border. Sure casino goers saw the cards at casino's but would they have cared to know the name. Its just a name USPCC stuck with to describe the faded border design to casino's looking to order cards. It was probably not till T11 came out with Bee stingers that the general card user knew it was known as a stinger.

I thought it was unique to have a casino quality deck of cards without the casino brand for my own personal use. With borders, No black jack markings, No cancellations. At a time in the industry when a handful of producers are using the "not intended for public use" claim to sell more decks, these were actually never meant for public use (casino samples).

I'd like to know when was the stinger concept first introduced to casino's. If these are sample decks, might they be "some of the first" produced by USPCC?

The name "Stingers" came from the little Bee logos - y'know, little bees with stingers on their butts...  The Bee logos don't appear on the other decks, because they aren't Bees.  As far as the public knowing they were Stingers - the boxes from USPC actually said "Stinger Back" on them, just like the T11 model - any tourist buying a canceled deck would know the name of the back.  I used to own a deck from an Indian casino outside of Oklahoma City that I visited.  USPC thought the Stinger deck's borders was a good idea, and made "authorized knockoff" versions for the other big casino brand they sold, Aristocrat.  Just as you wouldn't call the Aristocrat version of the Diamond Back a Diamond Back (there are some design differences between the two), the Aristo version of the Stinger Back isn't a true Stinger back (again, design differences).  The T11 version is actually the "aberration" because it's so far the only Stingers made without either a casino name/logo on the back or the Stinger logos on the back corners.

The fade-to-white border edge on these and the Bee Stingers are a reasonably new concept, I think - I couldn't say exactly when it began, but I'd wager no earlier than the early 1980s, possibly a good deal later.  Some casinos will still use a print-to-bleed back pattern, but the bordered back was meant to counter the "optical illusion" effect that a fine, borderless back pattern like the Bee Diamond Back has in a spread - because it was not as easy to spot where the edge of one card ended and another began, it allowed card mechanics to more easily conceal some of their sleight work.  The wide borders of the Stinger design removed that advantage and made it harder for the casino's own employees to perform any funny business with the cards.  Even blackjack dealers using a multi-deck shoe had to be monitored - there are still special shoes on the market that allow the dealer to second-deal, which combined with some kind of crimping, nicking or marking of the good cards could allow a dealer to send the best cards to a confederate playing at his or her table.

The Aristocrat decks, assuming they are indeed samples (I'm not 100% certain, but it's the most logical conclusion), are unlikely to be the first-ever samples.  USPC keeps samples around all the time to send to prospective commercial customers in an effort to steer them toward their brands.  It's like keeping around salesman's samples or business cards, ready to give away on a moment's notice.

[Card Player]

Omg

I understand the bee in the corner of bee stingers. Your saying that even though USPCC printed the word "stinger" on the back of the card they are not stinger? You know better then USPCC? How do you knockoff your own products? It's just a version of one of their own brands. USPCC can call any product of theirs anything they want. They don't need a bee in the corner to do so?

[Don Boyer]

Omg

I understand the bee in the corner of bee stingers. Your saying that even though USPCC printed the word "stinger" on the back of the card they are not stinger? You know better then USPCC? How do you knockoff your own products? It's just a version of one of their own brands. USPCC can call any product of theirs anything they want. They don't need a bee in the corner to do so?

OK, now that, I missed.  My apologies.  I was under the impression that "Stingers" were reserved for Bees because of the Bee logo, but clearly that isn't the case.  Thanks for pointing out my oversight in the text on the card back.

[Card Player]

Omg

I understand the bee in the corner of bee stingers. Your saying that even though USPCC printed the word "stinger" on the back of the card they are not stinger? You know better then USPCC? How do you knockoff your own products? It's just a version of one of their own brands. USPCC can call any product of theirs anything they want. They don't need a bee in the corner to do so?

OK, now that, I missed.  My apologies.  I was under the impression that "Stingers" were reserved for Bees because of the Bee logo, but clearly that isn't the case.  Thanks for pointing out my oversight in the text on the card back.

I thought the same thing until I saw these. That does not mean your wrong if its only a sample. That means its not an official product and may not be officially the general name. I just think it all plays into the uniqueness of the decks.

I'm going to write USPCC this weekend. Maybe they can provide some information about it being a casino sample or not. History of the casino stingers, naming etc...

If I get anything of value, I will post here with the response.

Thanks Don

[Don Boyer]

Omg

I understand the bee in the corner of bee stingers. Your saying that even though USPCC printed the word "stinger" on the back of the card they are not stinger? You know better then USPCC? How do you knockoff your own products? It's just a version of one of their own brands. USPCC can call any product of theirs anything they want. They don't need a bee in the corner to do so?

OK, now that, I missed.  My apologies.  I was under the impression that "Stingers" were reserved for Bees because of the Bee logo, but clearly that isn't the case.  Thanks for pointing out my oversight in the text on the card back.

I thought the same thing until I saw these. That does not mean your wrong if its only a sample. That means its not an official product and may not be officially the general name. I just think it all plays into the uniqueness of the decks.

I'm going to write USPCC this weekend. Maybe they can provide some information about it being a casino sample or not. History of the casino stingers, naming etc...

If I get anything of value, I will post here with the response.

Thanks Don

Are you a member of 52 + Jokers?  There are people there that could probably tell you to the last detail about these cards.  The one thing I can say with any degree of certainty is that they're not very old - one factor that bear this out is the barcode card itself - I don't think casinos used those until the 1990s.

BTW: same seller, up for bids, $2.99 Buy It Now:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aristocrat-Club-Special-Playing-Cards-Q1-With-Boarders-No-Casino-Logo/181214027922?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D163%26meid%3D1272752361436976434%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D181215949048%26

[Card Player]

Omg

I understand the bee in the corner of bee stingers. Your saying that even though USPCC printed the word "stinger" on the back of the card they are not stinger? You know better then USPCC? How do you knockoff your own products? It's just a version of one of their own brands. USPCC can call any product of theirs anything they want. They don't need a bee in the corner to do so?

OK, now that, I missed.  My apologies.  I was under the impression that "Stingers" were reserved for Bees because of the Bee logo, but clearly that isn't the case.  Thanks for pointing out my oversight in the text on the card back.

I thought the same thing until I saw these. That does not mean your wrong if its only a sample. That means its not an official product and may not be officially the general name. I just think it all plays into the uniqueness of the decks.

I'm going to write USPCC this weekend. Maybe they can provide some information about it being a casino sample or not. History of the casino stingers, naming etc...

If I get anything of value, I will post here with the response.

Thanks Don

Are you a member of 52 + Jokers?  There are people there that could probably tell you to the last detail about these cards.  The one thing I can say with any degree of certainty is that they're not very old - one factor that bear this out is the barcode card itself - I don't think casinos used those until the 1990s.

BTW: same seller, up for bids, $2.99 Buy It Now:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aristocrat-Club-Special-Playing-Cards-Q1-With-Boarders-No-Casino-Logo/181214027922?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D163%26meid%3D1272752361436976434%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D181215949048%26

Hey Don

I just saw this post. Nope, I'm not a member of 52 + Jokers. I need to find something though. I wrote USPCC over a month ago. They never got back to me OR they are still looking into it.

Either way these are no longer for sale by the eBay'er. Last I wrote to this guy, he had a few bricks but was holding on to a few decks for himself. Looks like he sold what he wanted of them. I doubt I will see them on eBay again anytime soon. Glad I picked a few up when I did.

The last 2 sold recently. He got $9.95 each w/ Free shipping. I think I paid $3.95 each + shipping for multiple decks. He raised the price shortly after.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aristocrat-Club-Special-Playing-Cards-Q1-Boarders-No-Casino-Logo-/181224680288

[Don Boyer]

Consider as well that it's possible that USPC simply made a Stinger version of the Aristocrat deck with the "Bee-like" back and made it available for sale.  Just 'cause it's casino quality, doesn't mean it was meant to be used in a casino.  We see countless casino-quality decks that never set foot in any casino.

[Card Player]

Consider as well that it's possible that USPC simply made a Stinger version of the Aristocrat deck with the "Bee-like" back and made it available for sale.  Just 'cause it's casino quality, doesn't mean it was meant to be used in a casino.  We see countless casino-quality decks that never set foot in any casino.

I will consider anything at this point. If USPCC made it for sale, why is this seller the only person with them? Even those Blue Gold Bee decks were found somewhere on the internet (China). If it was meant for a casino or not is moot point. They are casino quality in every definition of our communities standards.

[Don Boyer]

I will consider anything at this point. If USPCC made it for sale, why is this seller the only person with them? Even those Blue Gold Bee decks were found somewhere on the internet (China). If it was meant for a casino or not is moot point. They are casino quality in every definition of our communities standards.

Because they're quite possibly a vintage deck.  That would be the likeliest reason why.  The seller can't really date them - not without opening them.  Best you could determine is that if it doesn't have a tax stamp, it's post-1965.

I just looked at the thing again.  I'm really thinking "casino sample" - those TechArt faces don't appear on "civilian" decks, ever.  They're meant for dealers reading face-down cards at the blackjack table to know whether he or she is holding a blackjack - there's a hidden slit mirror that shows the top edge of the cards when placed in the right position.  Only face card and 10-spot indices hit the card edge on the left top corner, and only Aces on the right top corner.  Have one of each, you have blackjack.  I never see those on a deck meant for regular sale other than on used or discontinued casino decks.

[Card Player]

I will consider anything at this point. If USPCC made it for sale, why is this seller the only person with them? Even those Blue Gold Bee decks were found somewhere on the internet (China). If it was meant for a casino or not is moot point. They are casino quality in every definition of our communities standards.

Because they're quite possibly a vintage deck.  That would be the likeliest reason why.  The seller can't really date them - not without opening them.  Best you could determine is that if it doesn't have a tax stamp, it's post-1965.

I just looked at the thing again.  I'm really thinking "casino sample" - those TechArt faces don't appear on "civilian" decks, ever.  They're meant for dealers reading face-down cards at the blackjack table to know whether he or she is holding a blackjack - there's a hidden slit mirror that shows the top edge of the cards when placed in the right position.  Only face card and 10-spot indices hit the card edge on the left top corner, and only Aces on the right top corner.  Have one of each, you have blackjack.  I never see those on a deck meant for regular sale other than on used or discontinued casino decks.

These are not "vintage".  As attached, there is a date on the barcode card that shows Dec 8th, 2003. I agree, they are most likely casino samples for dealers/reps and the index is used for blackjack. However, could they be for training dealers or casino surveillance?

What does "EITS" stand for on the edge of the barcode card?  EITS = Eye In The Sky casino surveillance. As attached, most casino cards use a 4 digit number, not EITS

There are no black box markings on the faces of the Ace through 10's like you see on some casino blackjack decks. If these are for casino training, they might have multiple gaming uses. As I see multiple ways to use them myself.

They're meant for dealers reading face-down cards at the blackjack table to know whether he or she is holding a blackjack - there's a hidden slit mirror that shows the top edge of the cards when placed in the right position.

Basically your saying these are marked for dealers face down? Could that be why some canceled casino cards have the corners cut off OR why USPCC has not gotten back to me. These are NOT meant to be in the hands of the public. They would usually have been canceled or destroyed by a casino?

Don, This all adds to my intrigue of the decks.

[Don Boyer]

I will consider anything at this point. If USPCC made it for sale, why is this seller the only person with them? Even those Blue Gold Bee decks were found somewhere on the internet (China). If it was meant for a casino or not is moot point. They are casino quality in every definition of our communities standards.

Because they're quite possibly a vintage deck.  That would be the likeliest reason why.  The seller can't really date them - not without opening them.  Best you could determine is that if it doesn't have a tax stamp, it's post-1965.

I just looked at the thing again.  I'm really thinking "casino sample" - those TechArt faces don't appear on "civilian" decks, ever.  They're meant for dealers reading face-down cards at the blackjack table to know whether he or she is holding a blackjack - there's a hidden slit mirror that shows the top edge of the cards when placed in the right position.  Only face card and 10-spot indices hit the card edge on the left top corner, and only Aces on the right top corner.  Have one of each, you have blackjack.  I never see those on a deck meant for regular sale other than on used or discontinued casino decks.

These are not "vintage".  As attached, there is a date on the barcode card that shows Dec 8th, 2003. I agree, they are most likely casino samples for dealers/reps and the index is used for blackjack. However, could they be for training dealers or casino surveillance?

What does "EITS" stand for on the edge of the barcode card?  EITS = Eye In The Sky casino surveillance. As attached, most casino cards use a 4 digit number, not EITS

There are no black box markings on the faces of the Ace through 10's like you see on some casino blackjack decks. If these are for casino training, they might have multiple gaming uses. As I see multiple ways to use them myself.

They're meant for dealers reading face-down cards at the blackjack table to know whether he or she is holding a blackjack - there's a hidden slit mirror that shows the top edge of the cards when placed in the right position.

Basically your saying these are marked for dealers face down? Could that be why some canceled casino cards have the corners cut off OR why USPCC has not gotten back to me. These are NOT meant to be in the hands of the public. They would usually have been canceled or destroyed by a casino?

Don, This all adds to my intrigue of the decks.

TechArt isn't "marked" per se.  Picture this: you're a dealer, standing at your table.  Somewhere on your table, there's a place that you pass the cards over and it has a mirror that's built deep into the table.  The mirror reflects back to you, the dealer, but only the TOP EDGE of the card.  Spot cards from 2 through 9 have shortened indices that don't reach the corner, so they can't be read.  All 10-value cards; 10-spot and the face cards, are all indexed in a certain, identical way, usually with the index reaching all the way up.  Ace cards are indexed in a different but also similar fashion.  One of your photos shows a black shape in the index corner of the Ace.  Most TechArt decks I've seen will have four indices, with the right indices reaching the corner.  When held over or moved over that mirror, you see the top edge and learn one of three things about every card you deal yourself - 1) it's an Ace, 2) it's worth ten points, 3) it's a lower-value spot card, but you don't know which one.  So you can't see a complete hand of blackjack, but you know right away if you have blackjack or not.  The reason for this is that the alternative to knowing this is to peek, and any time you take a peek, you might reveal that peek to a player or his/her confederate watching the game.

EITS could be very significant.  There are some proprietary deck technologies (can't remember names for the life of me) that allowed the surveillance cameras to read the card from markings on the backs that are invisible in the visible light spectrum.  They've been largely abandoned because now even the players can have this technology in a concealed manner - some marking inks and daubs use the same tech, combined with glasses that see a certain wavelength of light.  But I think that same tech was around and still in use around the time this deck was made!  Applying such ink to the decks in manufacture would be no different than applying metallic ink.  It's entirely possible that this is a deck that could be read with some kind of light filter that was employed by EITS cameras.  (They still keep those filters around, to catch cheaters trying to mark cards with daubs.)

[Card Player]

For completeness of the thread I'm attaching one last picture of the brick box side. It probably would have saved us all a little bit of time and research had I done so earlier. Thanks for all the input.

[Don Boyer]

For completeness of the thread I'm attaching one last picture of the brick box side. It probably would have saved us all a little bit of time and research had I done so earlier. Thanks for all the input.

It's not really telling us anything that we didn't already learn from the deck itself.  Interesting box, though - never saw USPC print something like that on the side of a box before.