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Messages - Worst Bower

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1
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« on: February 15, 2024, 08:53:04 PM »
Quote from: Cabbie on February 14, 2024, 02:46:44 PM
SUBJECT  :  Mystery Piatnik deck I need help identifying.

I won this deck from a seller in England a couple of weeks ago. It is made by Ferdinand Piatnik & Sons, Vienna. I researched this deck for days before I broke down and bought it and researched for many days more, but I could find no reference online or in any of my books. It is a rather unusual deck (see photos below), especially for a Piatnik deck. From all the evidence I can gather, I am pretty sure it is an antique deck that I am dating as from the 1920s. But again, I searched everywhere and I can find no match for it, not anywhere online and not in the Fournier Museum books. I even searched all the Fournier entries, since the deck appears to be a recreation of an even earlier deck. No matches there, either. So, if anyone can identify this baby, I'd love some information on the Piatnik mystery deck.

2.) The cross-hatch pattern is usually called tartan or, in France, tarotee.

8.) These cards are from the Tuscan/Florentine pattern designed in the 19th century and that's still produced today. What you have is fairly old since it has 52 cards. These days, it only comes in 40 cards (no 8s, 9s, or 10s).

https://www.modiano.it/it/prodotto/toscane-rosso-150-anniversario/
https://shop.dalnegro.com/prodotto/toscane-pro/

2
Hochman Updates / Re: Chapter 6 - Andrew Dougherty
« on: February 02, 2024, 06:06:06 PM »
While Dougherty bought the location at Centre Street in 1871, he didn't move in until 1874 due to the need for extensive renovations. AD7 was produced at Beekman Street. Its little joker card has an inscription dating it to 1872. AD8, AD10, and AD12b could not have been made before the move and must be re-dated from '74 onward. The Best Bower card seen in AD8 is mentioned to pre-date the little joker, so it must have been created at Beekman sometime before '72.

3
Hochman Updates / Re: Chapter 4 - Longley Brothers and Successor Companies
« on: January 13, 2024, 12:25:46 PM »
If the dating of L5 is correct (c1867), it is the earliest true joker! Not an imperial bower or best bower, but an actual joker. And it's a clown too!

Here are my doubts: it's part of a 52 card deck, not a 32 card euchre deck; and it has rounded corners (http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks03/d01822/d01822.htm). The biggest red flag is that Samuel Cupples & Company was called Cupples & Marston until 1870! I would put this card in the 1870s.

Update: thanks to the research of Dave Seaney, this joker must be from 1877 or later. https://longleybrothers.weebly.com/paper-fabrique-cards---cincinnati.html

Check out Seaney's site for corrections about the Longley bros. https://longleybrothers.weebly.com/

4
Hochman Updates / Re: Chapter 5 - The New York Consolidated Card Company
« on: January 13, 2024, 11:43:51 AM »
The date for NY16 JNO. J. LEVY seems like a mistake or at least the joker is too early. It looks closer to 1870 than 1860 since NY22 mentions a similar joker. It also contradicts NY36, which is called the earliest joker. (UPDATE: First edition of Hochman gives NY16 an 1871 date! See: https://www.plainbacks.com/PBNew/Packs%20Pages/I112.html and https://www.plainbacks.com/PBNew/Packs%20Pages/I138.html)

NY16b has corner indices (http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks16/d14757/d14757.htm). Levy didn't have the rights to manufacture them in 1868 as his cousin and then competitor, Hart, owned the patent. It won't be until they merged in '72 did he start using them. This deck should date a few years before '76 when a similar "best bower" card as seen in NY63 became a company mainstay.

NY37 gives a circa 1868 date when the year 1869 is clearly printed on the card itself.

NY39 has a c1870 date but NYCC wasn't formed until  February 1872.

5
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: 2 Baccarat Decks Intrigue Me
« on: August 02, 2019, 12:03:08 AM »
You're right, the blue back is too dark, not even bright studio lights can account for the lighter backs. According to this image, the cards are from Piatnik: https://sites.google.com/site/tmwtgg/Home/goldeneye-playing-cards. However, they don't appear in my Piatnik catalogs so they are very likely out of print.

The closest I can find is this: https://www.amazon.it/Piatnik-1403-Baccara-Piccolo/dp/B000I0RWL2/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_it_IT=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91 but the dimensions don't seem right. This is Piatnik model number 1403 which I think is too small.

The one you should be looking for is Piatnik model 1404 (Baccara large): http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks06/d04594/d04594.htm

6
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: 2 Baccarat Decks Intrigue Me
« on: July 30, 2019, 09:57:55 AM »
If you're still interested, I found an online shop that sell's France Cartes baccara cards but they're in Italy: https://giochi.restaldi.com/it/prodotto/crt0099/carte-baccara-grimaud

I visited the room in Monte Carlo where that Goldeneye scene was shot last summer. It was very spacious. They did not offer Chemin de fer which Connery played in Dr. No but Punto Banco.

7
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Gaming Partner International Acquired by Angel Playing Cards
« on: July 30, 2019, 03:50:33 AM »
Market consolidation has become intense in the past 15 to 20 years with Cartamundi leading the way in aggressively buying out their competitors. In terms of big manufacturers (ones that supply casinos), the number of parent company firms are shrinking to a handful. Angel controls the Asia-Pacific market with Macau being their biggest customers. In Europe, there are only a few regional powerhouses outside of Cartamundi's control like KZWP-Trefl of Poland, Piatnik of Austria, and Dal Negro and Modiano of Italy.

8
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: 2 Baccarat Decks Intrigue Me
« on: July 30, 2019, 03:20:48 AM »
Quote from: Bacarater on July 24, 2019, 08:00:28 AM
Hi, does anyone have a link to where I can purchase these decks (issued mid- to late 1990s, I think, used in two films)?

Thank you!

https://ibb.co/HGsKcCy

https://ibb.co/hdctRL7

The second one (from Goldeneye) looks like its from France Cartes, a subsidiary of Cartamundi. The deck is called "Jeu de Baccara". It comes with 52 cards, no jokers, Paris pattern, bridge size (58 x 89.3mm), the backs are not pure white but very pale blue or pink, no corner indices, and wrapped in cellophane but no tuck box. Casinos buy cards in bulk so the lack of boxes save time and money. The cards from Goldeneye have pale blue backs. The product number is 390034. I can't find where it's sold, it might be for casinos only.


9
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Cartamundi buys USPCC.
« on: June 06, 2019, 01:59:50 AM »
This is huge news. Cartamundi now controls most of the world's major card manufacturing companies. Yes, Cartamundi will keep the USPCC name like they do for all their acquired subsidiaries. They bought it for the brand value too. Just expect a Cartamundi logo next to the USPCC one somewhere on the box.

10
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Recommendations for decent looking casino decks for poker game
« on: May 22, 2019, 01:10:45 AM »
Good and cheap are usually mutually exclusive. Does it have to be casino branded? I use Copag's plastic cards, though a bit pricier they last much longer. When playing with the elderly, I use their four-color decks.

11
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: Help needed; a game we play but I have no idea what it is called
« on: May 16, 2019, 01:05:43 AM »
I'm not sure but it sounds like Russian bank: https://www.pagat.com/patience/crapette.html

12
The Source - Card Collecting 101 / Re: Where Do You Look When You Need to Know?
« on: April 26, 2019, 11:47:46 PM »
Use this link: https://store.conjuringarts.org/product/both-the-hochman-encyclopedia-and-2015-price-guide-in-epub-format/

13
Playing Card Plethora / Re: What is this card game called?
« on: February 23, 2019, 09:04:07 AM »
It's called Memory, Concentration, or Pelmanism.

https://www.pagat.com/misc/pelmanism.html

14
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: Vintage Playboy Deck?
« on: January 01, 2019, 10:15:11 AM »
I'm not sure when they were made but probably from 1971 onwards according to: http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks03/d01557/d01557.htm

Do you have the original box?

15
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: King of Hearts - why the keyboard?
« on: December 05, 2018, 07:56:06 PM »
It looks like ermine lining on his coat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ermine_(heraldry)
http://www.wopc.co.uk/cards/suicide-king

16
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Question about Canasta
« on: November 23, 2018, 06:56:12 AM »
Here are canasta variants that can be played individually with any number of players:

https://www.pagat.com/rummy/new_canasta.html

https://www.pagat.com/rummy/handfoot.html#simpson

17
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: First post and question of age of deck titled "Fauntleroy"
« on: September 10, 2018, 07:27:10 PM »
I would date it between 1885 to 1894 based on the ace of spades. Yes, the Fauntleroy card is a joker and this brand was considered a "toy" brand marketed to children.

18
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« on: September 07, 2018, 06:33:43 AM »
Quote from: dcbrown on September 06, 2018, 09:26:27 PM
Would I have found this in the Hargrave book if I had it yet?

No, it's not found in Hargrave's book.

19
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Kings and Deputies - A modern Mamluk card reconstruction
« on: August 22, 2018, 04:23:12 AM »
I'm concerned that the "muluk wa-nuwwab" name may be copyrighted. "Mamluk playing cards" is a safe name though.

20
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Kings and Deputies - A modern Mamluk card reconstruction
« on: August 21, 2018, 04:14:37 PM »
Welcome! I've been anticipating these cards since directed to your site two years ago. I do have some questions regarding the naming of your deck. I've never encountered the term "Kings and Deputies" (muluk wa-nuwwab) in any source other than Bauwens' reconstruction. I suspect it was a descriptor invented by Bauwens. The early Spanish, French, and Italian sources used transliterations of na'ib, deputy in the singular. There must have been a popular card game called "deputy" played in the Middle East and North Africa at the time cards entered Europe.


21
Playing Card Plethora / Re: ISO 52 card German suited deck
« on: January 26, 2018, 11:43:05 AM »
This is the only 52 card German suited deck that you can buy:

http://www.makeplayingcards.com/sell/marketplace/stukeley-redheads-deck-1.html

It's a reproduction of one of the earliest German-suited decks and was likely designed with just 48 cards. The creator of this deck, who posts here, added aces and jokers for modern convenience.

22
Introduce Yourself / Re: Hi I have a question
« on: January 03, 2018, 06:09:02 PM »
Try https://boardgamegeek.com/guild/1259. Posts are infrequent but all card games can be discussed. I'm interested in lots of card games as well.

23
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: Pierre Baudard 1700's or repro? Pics in google photos link
« on: December 02, 2017, 11:06:13 AM »
They were cut out from a book. Page 16 of Henry Rene D'Allemagne's Antique Playing Cards which was originally published around a century ago but reprinted in 1996. You can buy the book here: https://www.amazon.com/Antique-Playing-Cards-Pictorial-History/dp/0486292657/


24
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: Ask the Experts at 52 Plus Joker
« on: November 15, 2017, 01:58:39 PM »
Quote from: Adamkelly on November 15, 2017, 08:35:48 AM
You guys are an engaging bunch, huh?! 😂😂😂😂

Here’s a free tip... if you want to grow your community - humour the new people who stop by... some of us may have ended up engaging over the longer term... unfortunately, in this case, now we’ll never know... best of luck - hopefully you guys rediscover why you wanted a forum in the first place :).

Walter Kraus (1908-85) is a famous East German card designer. He worked for Spielkartenfabrik Altenburg GmbH. This company was bought by Cartamundi in 2002 and merged with another subsidiary called Altenburger und Stralsunder Spielkarten (ASS). Your particular deck is called "Sweetheart No. 7011" and was designed in 1956.

Here is your deck: http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks06/d04591/d04591.htm

25
Playing Card Plethora / Re: The 2017 52 Plus Joker Convention - a Travelogue
« on: October 18, 2017, 09:18:19 AM »
Quote from: Don Boyer on October 18, 2017, 01:28:28 AM

The Dawson Lifetime Achievement Award went to Gene Hochman, given posthumously to his son, Mike.

Next year's convention will be in Cleveland.  It's a nod to the Chicago Playing Card Collectors, which is merging with 52 Plus Joker in the coming year - they specialize in single-card collecting!

I'm glad Dawson got an award named after him. The last time I sent an email to him, I never got a reply. I didn't know it at that time, but he was already hospitalized.

The Chicago club is probably the oldest organization in the world dedicated to collecting playing cards. I think they've been around since the 1950s.

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