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Playing Card Chat ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦ => Playing Card Plethora => Topic started by: sammyho888 on January 10, 2015, 06:27:48 PM
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First free deck for Black Club members from Ellusionist.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8604/16250414756_c7c0d73e29_b.jpg)
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7519/15656460693_13303e84af_b.jpg)
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Mine is on its way... and until I saw this post, other than the name of the deck, I knew nothing about it other than the name of the deck, and that it's by Daniel Madison.
It's an interesting tuck box -- the black and gold combination nearly always looks cool. This one (like most Madison designs) is clearly ultra-minimal.
"Casino and Lounge"... interesting theme.
Most Madison decks have limited edition variants... and so let's see whether there's a limited edition version of the Lions Den deck also!
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HolyJJ, just noticed the new signature:
With this signature I'm following the example set by Fes: There is only ONE letter L in my display name. "Holly" is a female name... and I'm a 175lb, bearded guy who's into weightlifting. There's nothing feminine about me brother!
Actually it IS used as a boys' name as well! (But males comprise only 0.01% of all children named Holly)...
So, no one's going to crack open their deck? I guess we'll have to wait until I get mine!
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haha, I love how tangents are such a consistent occurrence here. Really adds some personality to the boards.
The tuck looks pretty nice. It's hard for a black and gold tuck not to look nice though. I'm not a BC member myself so I'm one of the fellas without one of these on the way. For me it's just not there in terms of value. I don't know if this is one of the Madison decks that I'll really like, or one of the Madison decks that I really won't. There's not really a fine line there, so I have to take a good look at the deck before I'm too interested. As it stands, I like the tuck, so I'd say I'm 33% interested.
As HolyJJ pointed out. There's a lot of LE versions of Madison decks. This kinda begins to rub me the wrong way. I'm not saying I don't like LE's, I do absolutely. Sometimes, it's good to just have a deck be a deck without any LE cousins lurking around the corner though. The track record for Madison LE's is getting pretty sizable. I'm starting to think people chase the LE more than they do the friggin deck. That's all find and good, but wasn't the last deck, Kings, released with two or three LE versions? (I think I have three versions of Kings, I'll have to check though were gratis decks for one of my purchases. I really didn't pay too much attention other than, "Oh that's nice." set them aside and went on to what I purchased.) That's a bit long in the tooth for me. I'm hoping if they do do an LE of this, and I think they absolutely will, they'll keep it to just one.
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haha, I love how tangents are such a consistent occurrence here. Really adds some personality to the boards.
The tuck looks pretty nice. It's hard for a black and gold tuck not to look nice though. I'm not a BC member myself so I'm one of the fellas without one of these on the way. For me it's just not there in terms of value. I don't know if this is one of the Madison decks that I'll really like, or one of the Madison decks that I really won't. There's not really a fine line there, so I have to take a good look at the deck before I'm too interested. As it stands, I like the tuck, so I'd say I'm 33% interested.
As HolyJJ pointed out. There's a lot of LE versions of Madison decks. This kinda begins to rub me the wrong way. I'm not saying I don't like LE's, I do absolutely. Sometimes, it's good to just have a deck be a deck without any LE cousins lurking around the corner though. The track record for Madison LE's is getting pretty sizable. I'm starting to think people chase the LE more than they do the friggin deck. That's all find and good, but wasn't the last deck, Kings, released with two or three LE versions? (I think I have three versions of Kings, I'll have to check though were gratis decks for one of my purchases. I really didn't pay too much attention other than, "Oh that's nice." set them aside and went on to what I purchased.) That's a bit long in the tooth for me. I'm hoping if they do do an LE of this, and I think they absolutely will, they'll keep it to just one.
I don't mind tangents, as long as the topic gets posted in there somewhere...I'm practically the King of Tangents!
I will be extremely disappointed if this deck has the Madison court faces on it. I really never took to those - the lines in the added faces don't match up with the ones in the remaining parts of the original court design. His faces are drawn in much thinner lines, making the faces look mismatched and just sort of pasted in place rather than appearing like an integral part of the design. It's hard to get custom court faces like that done right - you're better off changing the clothing as well.
When the White LTDs came out with those faces, I was disappointed - the classic faces they'd been using were better, in my opinion. It killed my interest in owning the deck, so perhaps that was a good thing, at least from the perspective of my wallet.
BTW: is it free knowledge that this is a Madison (or more precisely, Madison/McKinnon) deck design?
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I'm not a BC member anymore. I bought into the BC at the $110 promotion price more then a year ago. I totally forgot I was a BC member at one point and never received a renewal email. So, now I'm not. The free deck for every new release is a nice idea. At $147, it was not worth it. Especially since I don't know if I want the deck or not. If I do, I never buy just one. I'd end up losing in shipping for a second order. I might as well wait to see if I like something and just buy what I want.
I find this deck to be interesting. I have not been able to say that since dealers v2. I like the casino & lounge (clip joint) angle. I'll reserve judgement till I see more and buy what I want when or if they are released.
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Don, seeing as the 99.99% of all people with the name "Holly" are female, I think I'll say that the percentage is high enough (only just though!) for me to consider it a female name.
Regarding Lions Den deck, it is indeed a Madison deck -- the order confirmation from Ellusionist does refer to the deck as "Lions Den by Daniel Madison".
There was a photo of the cards over at the other card forum, and I have to say, this deck sticks to Madison's preference for minimalistic design.
Although there is a very dark, repeating diamond design (a larger squarish type of diamond design, rather than the type you get on Bee decks) in the background, it just has the Lions Den Casino and Lounge writing (exactly the same as on the tuckbox) on both halves of the deck in the usual casino style.
The deck also has white borders on both sides, but none across the top and bottom of the cards -- so kind of like the Madison Hustlers in that respect. However, these borders are thick, and there is no 1mm offset.
Whilst most will likely call it a lazy design, I think this deck does have a certain type of elegance to it -- probably would be the type of design that I'd expect for a deck in an expensive lounge or casino.
People are likely to either love it or hate it. Regarding any potential limited edition... other than a colour variation, I'm not quite sure what they can do with this one. Either way, I'd be interested to see!
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Although there is a very dark, repeating diamond design (a larger squarish type of diamond design, rather than the type you get on Bee decks) in the background, it just has the Lions Den Casino and Lounge writing (exactly the same as on the tuckbox) on both halves of the deck in the usual casino style.
The deck also has white borders on both sides, but none across the top and bottom of the cards -- so kind of like the Madison Hustlers in that respect. However, these borders are thick, and there is no 1mm offset.
I saw that, haha. Believe it or not, I thought that was an ad card! You're absolutely correct though, I just went and looked again. That's the card back! hmm, I don't know how I feel about this. By itself just it's onesie out there it doesn't work to well for me. Seriously thought it was an ad card, haha. Maybe fanned or a delt out I'd feel differently. I'll reserve judgement for the time being, a fan, multiple cards out. That has an impact. Love to know what you think when yours arrives.
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Although there is a very dark, repeating diamond design (a larger squarish type of diamond design, rather than the type you get on Bee decks) in the background, it just has the Lions Den Casino and Lounge writing (exactly the same as on the tuckbox) on both halves of the deck in the usual casino style.
The deck also has white borders on both sides, but none across the top and bottom of the cards -- so kind of like the Madison Hustlers in that respect. However, these borders are thick, and there is no 1mm offset.
I saw that, haha. Believe it or not, I thought that was an ad card! You're absolutely correct though, I just went and looked again. That's the card back! hmm, I don't know how I feel about this. By itself just it's onesie out there it doesn't work to well for me. Seriously thought it was an ad card, haha. Maybe fanned or a delt out I'd feel differently. I'll reserve judgement for the time being, a fan, multiple cards out. That has an impact. Love to know what you think when yours arrives.
What happened to the lion? Did the lion lose toes on the way down? Lions paws have 4 toes, not 3. LMAO
OR are they actually demon scratches?
Commonly found on people who have been attacked by something supernatural. The reason the scratches from demons are always in three is because it is a mocking of the Trinity. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are the most important figures in the Christian faith and any demonic force will attempt to enrage the Trinity.
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Here are what the card backs look like.
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The Lions den.
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The Lions den.
[scratch:target=head;state=confusion]
[timedelay=10s]
[stare=befuddled]
[/scratch]
Aside from quoting part of the deck's name and showing us a pretty picture, were you actually trying to say something?
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The Lions den.
[scratch:target=head;state=confusion]
[timedelay=10s]
[stare=befuddled]
[/scratch]
Aside from quoting part of the deck's name and showing us a pretty picture, were you actually trying to say something?
I believe he was demonstrating that lions have 4 claws not 3 like the thing that clawed the lions den deck.
(http://nextround.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/wolverine_costume43.jpg)
http://danielmadison.co.uk/ARTICLE-Biography.html (http://danielmadison.co.uk/ARTICLE-Biography.html)
Also It looks like Madison has updated his story. The Lions Den is apparently the name of the place he was caught cheating and beaten up for being too awesome and totally badass.
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I keep looking at these card backs and I can't help but feel like I'd like it a whole lot better if the text and strange pitchfork/scratches weren't on there. The pitchfork/claw whatever thing, looks kind of cool on the tuck. Just doesn't really translate well on the cards themselves for me. Good example of less is more, I think it would have a certain charm and stand out a bit more positively.
I don't think I can ever remember mistaking a card back for an Ad card before in my life. This one, I did.
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I really like the tuck, enought that I started hunting for one for resale pretty much immediately once I saw it, but the cards backs have me hessitating, they aren't terribly attractive and they don't continue the elegance of the tuck at all...
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I'm glad I didn't renew my Black Club membership. I basically threw away 150 bucks last year because of it. If these are the kind of decks you get for being a member, I really don't think it is worth the money.
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Turns out that only 5000 of these decks were printed.
No idea whether there will be further printings of it, or whether it'll remain a limited edition.
Edit: the Black Club e-mail makes it appear that it will remain a limited edition deck. The deck will be sold for $10, with none of the usual discounts for purchases of 6 or more.
5000 is very low for an Ellusionist deck... and so when it does go on sale to the general public, I'll be surprised if it lasts longer than 48 hours.
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Turns out that only 5000 of these decks were printed.
No idea whether there will be further printings of it, or whether it'll remain a limited edition.
Edit: the Black Club e-mail makes it appear that it will remain a limited edition deck. The deck will be sold for $10, with none of the usual discounts for purchases of 6 or more.
5000 is very low for an Ellusionist deck... and so when it does go on sale to the general public, I'll be surprised if it lasts longer than 48 hours.
5,000 is more like "average-low" for Ellusionist. Every rare deck they've ever printed has been in quantities of 5,000.
As far as lasting more than two days... Red Artifice decks were the first rares these guys offered for sale, and only 3/5th of the print run at that. They sold in about 16 hours, maybe less. But these are NOT red Artifice decks, to be sure. I can see them selling out eventually, but not in 48 hours.
Look at the less-than-excited reactions of the people here - the supply is short, but the demand's not terribly strong. There will be those completists who MUST...HAVE..EVERY...ELLUSIONIST...DECK, but they're will be nothing like the response for the red Artifice.
Even speculators are less likely to want a piece of this - they'd be sinking cash into a deck that's not terribly popular, despite its rarity, and they'd be stuck holding these for months waiting for enough buyers to clean them out. It wouldn't be worth tying up the money in this deck when there are better and more popular ones out there.
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^^ Don, of course you're correct about 5000 being the usual Ellusionist quantity for limited edition decks. For any other project (such as kickstarter projects) 5000 is a massive quantity... but I called it low relative to Ellusionist -- because it's a quantity that they can shift pretty fast.
The design may not be on par with the Red Artifice, Gold Arcane, or any other high-value limited-to-5000 types of decks, but it has something which the above-mentioned decks didn't have -- the Daniel Madison name tag.
After all, the first printing of the pretty lame (and in my opinion, totally crap) Kings deck was 20,000... and that sold out fast. Even the second run also sold out.
Madison stuff, sells. Whether it has great design or not, it sells. Even when Madison one day takes minimalist design to the Nth degree by selling double blank cards in a blank white tuck box (with only a small Madison logo in white font), that'll probably sell also.
I'm guessing that you've read the sales page for the deck, and so you know the back story behind it. I think they've done a pretty good job with how they've presented it -- a deck which has personal significance to DM.
Limited Edition, Daniel Madison, Ellusionist, and the backstory... I think that's enough to get the die hard Ellusionist fans and Madison fans to snap up this deck pretty fast. That's why despite the less-than-positive response to the deck from this forum, I do think the deck will meet Ellusionist and Madison's goal -- to sell out, and I think it'll do that pretty fast.
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You may well be right, HolyJJ. But I think we might be nearing the point of Madison saturation, especially when factoring in how many "Ellusionist-rare" decks he's put his name on.
Let's see now... In no particular order...
Madison Dealers v1 (borderless), green
Madison Dealers v1 (borderless), red (rare)
Madison Dealers v2 (bordered), black
Madison Dealers v2 (bordered), red
Madison Gamblers (gaff deck for black Rounders and green Dealers v1)
Madison Rounders, white
Madison Rounders, brown
Madison Rounders, black (regular)
Madison Rounders, black (autographed [rare])
Madison Rounders, red (rare)
Madison Kings, white
Madison Kings, inverted (rare)
Madison Mini Rounders, black
Madison Hustlers, orange
Madison Hustlers, purple
The Lions Den
LTD, white (technically not a Madison deck, but it does have the Madison courts [rare])
The Gaff System (Artifice gaff cards co-developed by Madison)
EIGHTEEN decks, of which five are rare and not purchasable. I know of no one else with such a pasteboard legacy! And that doesn't include his first deck, the one he did with Theory11...
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Yeah, one would expect there to be a point where interest declines... but DM's following only ever seems to pick up, rather than lessen.
The list you've provided covers nearly all decks -- the only ones I know of that are missing from the list of DM-Ellusionist collaborations are Blue Rounders and the Private Reserve Rounders. (Although Ellusionist didn't sell any, the Ellusionist logo does appear at the bottom of the tuckbox.)
Furthermore, the White edition Kings and Madison Revolvers are already known to either be in the works or ready for release!
The list is going to keep on growing brother...
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Yeah, one would expect there to be a point where interest declines... but DM's following only ever seems to pick up, rather than lessen.
It's picking up but not with age. I've read comments of those who still have anything good to say about his playing cards. They're mostly kids.
I have trouble articulating my thoughts regarding DM anymore. Disappointing. I have nothing else I care to add.
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Yeah, one would expect there to be a point where interest declines... but DM's following only ever seems to pick up, rather than lessen.
The list you've provided covers nearly all decks -- the only ones I know of that are missing from the list of DM-Ellusionist collaborations are Blue Rounders and the Private Reserve Rounders. (Although Ellusionist didn't sell any, the Ellusionist logo does appear at the bottom of the tuckbox.)
Furthermore, the White edition Kings and Madison Revolvers are already known to either be in the works or ready for release!
The list is going to keep on growing brother...
The list was as complete as I could get using the data presently available on the E website. I had a hunch I'd miss out on at least one deck. So, we're looking at about twenty decks and counting in the, what, two or so years he's been working with Ellusionist? I know of few people who are that prolific in the playing card production world.
Just spotted ANOTHER missing deck. Black Kings, in addition to inverted and white. And I forget - what's the deck with the gold-boxed Kings?
It's picking up but not with age. I've read comments of those who still have anything good to say about his playing cards. They're mostly kids.
I have trouble articulating my thoughts regarding DM anymore. Disappointing. I have nothing else I care to add.
I believe you on that. It's rather funny when you think about it - a card hustler teaching cheating moves to children not even old enough to gamble! But yeah, Daniel's got fanboys like a lot of other people in this business and they seem to be keeping him and Ellusionist afloat.
I think the Madison decks single-handedly got me fed up with the practice of creating courts with faces of people the artist or producer know in real life. The drawings on his cards occasionally don't match the line size or the style and the heads are occasionally out of proportion, seeming on the too-large side. I was so disappointed with the white LTD deck because of that - it had great USPC-standard faces and Artifice-style indices using standard pips.
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One thing though, they are good for value growth.
I don't think I paid for many of the DM decks I have (although I did for others) and some of his earlier reading material and methods have some golden info or interesting variations through it. I think my bottom deal was pretty good. But after some of DMs stuff written and film its probably one of my strongest suits. I don't use his method entirely but some things I had not considered or learned from other literature was changed, altered in my mind, or at the very least seen differently, in a better light. Now I have this wierd hybrid that works for me and some of his stuff helped with that.
But I think I have them all, in multiple copies, from over time. And value to trade or sell to get other decks is far better than other copies of much better decks I have. Currently both Private Reserve and Blue Rounders are easy going over $100 on ebay. (and I don't even know if these are genuine http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Bicycle-Ellusionist-Madison-Rounders-BLUE-RARE-US-Playing-Cards-Magic-NEW-/171340256163?pt=AU_Card_Games&hash=item27e4acd3a3 This guy always seems to have too many copies of pretty rare stuff to be real? Along with asian ties I think they are knock offs anyway).
I have a small stack of white monarchs, but one blue Rounders, or private reserve will get me better trade or $$$ value to help my collection grow. Unfortunately I cant see Lions den doing that. So I have not even grabbed the free one because shipping to Aus is a killer and they have nothing else I want currently.
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@ HudsonDesign:
I have nothing bad to say about DM as an author. I don't think anyone questions the contributions he has made to the growth of his craft. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing the same effort in his playing card releases. I know that has something to do with Ellusionist.
The Kings concept was a good one in my opinion but DM was already earning a reputation for producing more decks then anyone at that time. Had DM stopped after Dealers V2 and waited for Kings a year later, we all might have a different opinion on the subject. But its never enough. The decks keep coming. One more uninspiring deck after the next. There used to be a time when I believed DM's playing cards were about function. I know now that's not the case. Its about money first, concept last.
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This I can agree with. As a collector its lost most of its shine for me. I also feel with the focus on cards and not new material the whole reason hes a selling point dissipates a bit. So if you give up on creating new effects then the cards should be able to speak for themselves, which in this case has not happened.
I'm also surprised that "this is the more profitable option."
I would have imagined that producing some new material, even if its put on DVD, which they can produce themselves, would be a fraction of the cost. Yes sure some people will by 12 decks or more, but only one DVD. But the dvd might only cost 50c each to produce and bring in $25 or more each. Plus then people would want whatever cards were in said DVD. (which is why I always think its funny to see people using private reserve etc instead of what they have for sale.)
If you make it a small 5 minute download, then only hosting and payment processing is a cost really, even though it might only be $5-$10 per download its a license to print money.'
So I guess IMHO there would have to be better business practice in releasing material as the primary goal and cards, with far better designs, are supplemental to that. Less often and better designed.
I know the prohibition decks were charged at a pretty decent premium. But I imagine if they put the lions den in a small twin pack limited edition box, they would sell out pretty quick, then used the prohibition decks as standard they would have sold squillions! Doing it this way made the prohibition decks cooler, and I would be very, very surprised if the first 5000 lions den didn't "sell out" in a week. But I can't see them selling many more after that initial "must get before anyone else does" phase runs out.
My biggest surprise and disappointment was that they lead with this as the black clubs first "free deck". Also as a mystery deck. Which I think was a waste.
I don't think people will be "hanging out" for the next one currently. If they had, as first cab off the rank, used something really spectacular, really breathtaking, and those mystery packages had really sparked interest, they would have set themselves up for the rest of the year, created buzz for the future releases, and probably sold a truckload more black club memberships.
As it stands you start the negativity its very hard to swing back the other way. This might mean for the rest of the year instead of getting "This new release is a pretty cool deck" they might be battling, "at least its better than the Lions Den deck".
I am almost hesitant to put this out in the open for people to read. I should write it in an envelope, post it to Don and ask him to open it in a couple of months time, when Victor is reviewing one of the new decks and "TaDaaaa" a 3 month multi national, cross global prediction trick!
(Sorry Vic, but you know its gonna happen mate ;) )
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For some reason, Ellusionist appear to have delayed the release of this deck -- they released the deck to black club members a couple of days ago... and they haven't yet released the deck to the general public.
Maybe they want to create more awareness of deck, prior to it's general release?
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Currently both Private Reserve and Blue Rounders are easy going over $100 on ebay. (and I don't even know if these are genuine http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Bicycle-Ellusionist-Madison-Rounders-BLUE-RARE-US-Playing-Cards-Magic-NEW-/171340256163?pt=AU_Card_Games&hash=item27e4acd3a3 This guy always seems to have too many copies of pretty rare stuff to be real? Along with asian ties I think they are knock offs anyway).
What Asian connections? The seller is in Melbourne, on a totally different continent!
It's not exactly impossible to come up with rare decks - you yourself mentioned having all those Madison decks without even trying to get them! There are a number of eBay sellers that are actually professional card retailers, using eBay as either a supplement to or replacement for a brick-and-mortar store. Many sell their rare decks post-retail, at collectors' prices. Though if you ask me, AU$128/US$101.14 is really high for that deck...
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These are now available at E. $10 a pop is a little steep, I expected they would land at the $7.00 mark. Even so I suspect they'll sell out. If you're a completionist, check your email. E should have sent you a direct link to the decks page.
EDIT: I went to click, gimmie one of these, and the link I have in my email is still for Black Club Members haha. They should be available very soon. Haha, I'm not a black club member. That cracks me up. LMAO, why taunt Fes like that E? I thought we were pals.
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What Asian connections? The seller is in Melbourne, on a totally different continent!
Don,
You are 100% correct and I could be 100% incorrect. Also i did say I don't know if they are genuine and I only think they are knock offs. Just a guess.
I came to this conclusion a fair while ago, maybe a year. I can't remember exactly what it was but there was some deck that was "never for sale" limited to 2500 decks maybe, maybe less (sorry was a fair while back), and had been sold out and gone for a long time, that I needed for my own collection. This seller had the only copy out there available on ebay at the time, ridiculously expensive IMHO as well. Also there was something like 40 sold and 200 available. He also had some other cheaper decks (like average price handling decks, standard bikes or something like that, again can not 100% remember) for a ridiculously cheap, fell of the back of a truck, type prices.
Being a little suss on it all and really wanting that deck, but not wanting to drop a fortune on a fake I went searching.
This seller is located in melbourne Aus as listed on Ebay. But is also the owner of 360direct2u a Hong Kong listed company. He sells lots of "rare" cards and lots of cheap imported camera equipment, spy camera, golf stuff, you name it.
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/heng-lee/17/844/791
http://www.hongkongcompanylist.com/365direct2u-limited-byooyfo/
So yes, I could be completely wrong and if I am would love to know because the idea of a local seller that's legit with occasional rare cards is fantastic and really handy considering postage to Australia from the USA.
But to me it seemed all to coincidental along with the amazing amount of stock he had at the time for something considered rare and unavailable for me to risk dropping the $$$.
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Also just noticed in the images below. Looks like maybe DMs focus has shifted to being a Card Company rather than a lecturer or writer who also produces cards. Can't blame him I guess, follow the money and all that.
Side note from the other image : - Wonder why his casino idea never panned out.... ::)
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Also just noticed in the images below. Looks like maybe DMs focus has shifted to being a Card Company rather than a lecturer or writer who also produces cards. Can't blame him I guess, follow the money and all that.
Side note from the other image : - Wonder why his casino idea never panned out.... ::)
I have to disagree. As many in this industry have proven, they can be focused on more then one thing at the same time. The only thing DM or Ellusionist is really doing is getting orginaized, creating official entities and sub-divisions for what they have already been doing this whole time. I don't see any diference between "Madison Presents" or just having DM's official logo on his products.
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I hope your right. Honestly do. Only going on what i'm seeing. Less material, more decks and specific new branding.
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For sale to the public Lions Den Playing Cards by Daniel Madison (http://www.ellusionist.com/lions-den-playing-cards-by-daniel-madison.html)
A Note from Daniel Madison
After almost a year in the creation, Madison Presents is set to launch with one of my most meaningful and personal decks of cards... The Lions Den.
A few years back I had a wild idea to open my own casino which would be a safe-haven for crooked gamblers. Although the project never got off the ground, the branding and playing cards had been designed, and Madison Presents offered me the perfect platform to help see these cards come to life.
The Lions Den deck is the casino deck designed for my own casino, offering a full top to bottom bleed of classy black and gold but a white border on either side as a cheating safety measure.
The unique casino stock is similar to Madison Rounders - thin, smooth and sturdy. The design takes elements from a classical casino style with a minimal yet regal touch. The gold flows on both sides (front and back) with unique court cards and the box offers a minimal and slick home for the cards.
With the Lions Den deck, I present to you, a deck of cards fit for a casino, and also fit for a King.
(http://www.ellusionist.com/images/additional/DM-sig.png) (http://www.ellusionist.com/media/catalog/product/m/a/madison_pic_1.jpg)
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Odd. This is nothing like the back story mentioned on Daniel Madison's website.
HD: yes, it's very possible then that this company is dealing on the shadier side of the street. But if you buy through eBay, you should be covered under their Buyer Protection Program. No risk of loss. If a dealer gets enough complaints leveled at them, eBay will sanction them in some way and possibly freeze their PayPal account.
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For sale to the public Lions Den Playing Cards by Daniel Madison (http://www.ellusionist.com/lions-den-playing-cards-by-daniel-madison.html)
A Note from Daniel Madison
After almost a year in the creation, Madison Presents is set to launch with one of my most meaningful and personal decks of cards... The Lions Den.
A few years back I had a wild idea to open my own casino which would be a safe-haven for crooked gamblers. Although the project never got off the ground, the branding and playing cards had been designed, and Madison Presents offered me the perfect platform to help see these cards come to life.
The Lions Den deck is the casino deck designed for my own casino, offering a full top to bottom bleed of classy black and gold but a white border on either side as a cheating safety measure.
The unique casino stock is similar to Madison Rounders - thin, smooth and sturdy. The design takes elements from a classical casino style with a minimal yet regal touch. The gold flows on both sides (front and back) with unique court cards and the box offers a minimal and slick home for the cards.
With the Lions Den deck, I present to you, a deck of cards fit for a casino, and also fit for a King.
(http://www.ellusionist.com/images/additional/DM-sig.png) (http://www.ellusionist.com/media/catalog/product/m/a/madison_pic_1.jpg)
I did read this... Someone on the other forum took the words out of my head. "A casino which would be a safe-haven for crooked gamblers" Can't imagine (sarcasm) why investors or casino insurance companies would not want to back something like that? LMAO
DM might want to re-think using the acronym MPC for "Madison Playing Cards". MakingPlayingCards.com (MPC). For a second, I thought Madison Presents was DM's attempt of getting away from MPC, but I guess not.
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Anyone also noticed a lot of gold and "fit for a king" is being used in E lately?
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Anyone also noticed a lot of gold and "fit for a king" is being used in E lately?
Yeah no doubt! Apparently DM is the self styled King... Or did someone else crown him when I wasn't paying attention? =P
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Anyone also noticed a lot of gold and "fit for a king" is being used in E lately?
Yeah no doubt! Apparently DM is the self styled King... Or did someone else crown him when I wasn't paying attention? =P
Kings and Queens trendy terms last couple years. Lots of "I'm a King" and "My king" and all that kinda thing going on. Women using Queen much, much more as well. Kind of an urban thing that spilled over, I guess you could say. He's using it to draw in more people. I think it's working looks like his decks are selling very well.
I'm picking up one of these. I feel like I want to investigate it, see how it feels, the overall effect, etc.
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What I'm about to say is not a reflection on Daniel Madison because I think he's a supremely swell guy.
I did read this... Someone on the other forum took the words out of my head. "A casino which would be a safe-haven for crooked gamblers" Can't imagine (sarcasm) why investors or casino insurance companies would not want to back something like that? LMAO
True, but forget investors or insurance companies for a sec because all gaming must be licensed by a governing body (depending on where you live). For instance, all casinos and key employees in Las Vegas must be licensed through the Nevada State Gaming Control Board. This is not an easy task, nor an inexpensive process. It's daunting, invasive, and quite frankly designed to thwart exactly what Mr. Madison wanted to create.
But even more to the point, Casinos don't need to cheat because they only make money when you win. Sounds crazy right? But it's the truth...
I know you're thinking to yourselves right now, "Lee, that doesn't make any sense!"
It does. Hear me out. The easiest way to explain it is by using the old casino game KENO. For those of you who are not familiar with KENO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keno), it's simply a lottery that happens every 5 minutes, 24 hours a day. God bless Las Vegas!
KENO
80 numbers are on the board. 20 are then randomly chosen (Just like most lotteries). 20 chosen / divided by 80 total is easily broken down into 1/4. This is called a True Odd. For everyone $1 you bet, you should win $4. Makes sense right?
However, in Las Vegas where you can play KENO, for every $1 you bet, you only win $3. Meaning, they keep a $1 when you win.
So what happens if you lose? Simple. The money goes into escrow (the cage), and waits until someone eventually wins it. Then the Casino takes their piece. This happens over and over, 24 hrs a day.
...and that's how Casinos generate gaming revenue ladies & gentlemen. Thanks for listening.
Class dismissed!
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What I'm about to say is not a reflection on Daniel Madison because I think he's a supremely swell guy.
I did read this... Someone on the other forum took the words out of my head. "A casino which would be a safe-haven for crooked gamblers" Can't imagine (sarcasm) why investors or casino insurance companies would not want to back something like that? LMAO
Forget investors or insurance companies, all gaming must be licensed by a governing body (depending on where you live). For instance, all casinos and key employees in Las Vegas must be licensed through the Nevada State Gaming Control Board. This is not an easy task, nor an inexpensive process. It's daunting, invasive, and quite frankly designed to thwart exactly what Mr. Madison wanted to create.
But even more to the point, Casinos don't need to cheat because they only make money when you win. Sounds crazy right? But it's the truth...
I know you're thinking to yourselves right now, "Lee, that doesn't make any sense!"
It does. Hear me out. The easiest way to explain it is by using the old casino game KENO. For those of you who are not familiar with KENO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keno), it's simply a lottery that happens every 5 minutes, 24 hours a day. God bless Las Vegas!
KENO
80 numbers are on the board. 20 are then randomly chosen (Just like most lotteries). 20 chosen / divided by 80 total is easily broken down into 1/4. This is called a True Odd. For everyone $1 you bet, you should win $4. Makes sense right?
However, in Las Vegas where you can play KENO, for every $1 you bet, you only win $3. Meaning, they keep a $1 when you win.
So what happens if you lose? Simple. The money goes into escrow (the cage), and waits until someone eventually wins it. Then the Casino takes their piece. This happens over and over, 24 hrs a day.
...and that's how Casinos generate gaming revenue ladies & gentlemen. Thanks for listening.
Class dismissed!
lmao... Good info Lee. I probably should have done more accurate research about the gaming control or gaming commission. It was along the same lines of your example.
Seeing as most of us males were born with testicules, to say DM or I for that matter are swell or nice guys (all the time) is not a realistic statement. I understand what you meant though. I don't take DM calling people "closet lovers" or c@nts on Instagram personally. He's a swell guy! Lol
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Seeing as most of us males were born with testicules, to say DM or I for that matter are swell or nice guys (all the time) is not a realistic statement. I understand what you meant though. I don't take DM calling people "closet lovers" or c@nts on Instagram personally. He's a swell guy! Lol
I was simply referring to the times I've personally dealt with Daniel. He has always been respectful & friendly.
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Seeing as most of us males were born with testicules, to say DM or I for that matter are swell or nice guys (all the time) is not a realistic statement. I understand what you meant though. I don't take DM calling people "closet lovers" or c@nts on Instagram personally. He's a swell guy! Lol
I was simply referring to the times I've personally dealt with Daniel. He has always been respectful & friendly.
I believe you. I doubt anyone would treat you any differently.
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I believe you. I doubt anyone would treat you any differently.
Sometimes. You'd be surprised bro...
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That is exactly how poker or slot machines work in Australia. You put in $1, they keep track. And wait. Then you win. Pays out $97 but the actual input to the machine was $100.
So they keep 97 cents on every dollar input. By connecting machines in one venue, or across multiple venues, you can get massive jackpot amounts. But its always just a percentage return.
Here in Aus they also set the machines however they want. So some might pay out 97 some 93. I always think new and popular machines are set a little lower.
Fun fact. Australia has 3 times as many poker machines per capita than the USA. (2012 USA 369 people per machine AUS 111 people per machine) Aussies love a punt.
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Fun fact. Australia has 3 times as many poker machines per capita than the USA. (2012 USA 369 people per machine AUS 111 people per machine) Aussies love a punt.
I don't play anything that allows a computer/machine to determine the outcome/odds of winning. Give me a physical gaming table, dealt deck of cards or hand held dice everytime.
I'll play free online poker every now and again, like Pokerist but never anything for real money. I've seen too many hands unfold that are not true to actual probability. Many more bad beats online then actual poker probability.
So, If most U.S. gamblers are anything like me, I can see why we have more people per machine. I'd rather tip an actual dealer and know a casino is paying an employee then taking a job away with a machine.
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So they keep 97 cents on every dollar input. By connecting machines in one venue, or across multiple venues, you can get massive jackpot amounts. But its always just a percentage return.
It's the same in Las Vegas, though it seems like you have it backwards. For every dollar you play, you should win 97 cents. The Casino keeps 3 cents every time you win. Now the real questions is ... how many times do you need to win before you go broke? ;)
So, If most U.S. gamblers are anything like me, I can see why we have more people per machine. I'd rather tip an actual dealer and know a casino is paying an employee then taking a job away with a machine.
If the Casinos had it their way, there would be no more table games. Upper management thinks in square footage, just like real estate. Think about how many slots you can fit in the same space as a Black Jack table. Craps table? etc...
Also, keep in mind, slot machines don't call in sick because their kids have a cough!
In 1994-1999, when I was going to school for casino management at UNLV (University of Nevada, Las Vegas), slot machines brought in about 70% of the strip's bottom line. ??? Maybe it's changed a bit, but probably not.
We will probably see table games go away in our lifetime.
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I think it has changed Lee. The advent of those so called 1 cent machines when in reality the max bet is something like $7.30 have increased the take from slots. Also if you pop into any casino on the strip now you'll see machines that will play roulette, craps, black jack as well as other typical table games.
I wouldn't be surprised if what you say comes to fruition I'll be very sad if it does though. I really don't like slots. I doubt many of us here do, we're card lovers.
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I'd take a sizable bet against pretty long odds that table games will not be disappearing anytime soon... Have you seen the metrics from Asia?! And in particular Macau? Slots may make more margin but tables destroy them in terms of sheer volume. People like to have a tactile sense of what they're playing and, as has been pointed out, some distrust computers and the like and prefer to interact with real people and real cards. Baccarat probably sees more turnover than all the other casino games combined on a global basis...
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I'd take a sizable bet against pretty long odds that table games will not be disappearing anytime soon... Have you seen the metrics from Asia?! And in particular Macau? Slots may make more margin but tables destroy them in terms of sheer volume. People like to have a tactile sense of what they're playing and, as has been pointed out, some distrust computers and the like and prefer to interact with real people and real cards. Baccarat probably sees more turnover than all the other casino games combined on a global basis...
Pardon me. Let me rephrase... They will vanish in the Americas.
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I'd still take that bet against long odds... =) You might be surprised how many Asians travel to the U.S. to gamble (or live there already)... Unfortunately we can't actually bet since we both have to be dead for the bet to be settled =P
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I'd still take that bet against long odds... =) You might be surprised how many Asians travel to the U.S. to gamble (or live there already)... Unfortunately we can't actually bet since we both have to be dead for the bet to be settled =P
Action accepted! ;)
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So back to the deck...
Here's E's latest on FB:
https://www.facebook.com/ellusionist/photos/a.10150578138596161.375050.61472466160/10152666016411161/?type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/ellusionist/photos/a.10150578138596161.375050.61472466160/10152666016411161/?type=1&theater)
Yeah, better hurry, these are running out fast and the remaining few will only be available for promotions ???
I guess they're planning on a lot of promotions. I just checked and as of the time of this post there were still over 3100 left in stock. This deck is just not selling.
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So back to the deck...
My apologies. I had no intentions of derailing this thread.
And now back to the deck at hand...
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I'll keep my casino comments brief.
Lee: New York State actually has a lottery game that functions exactly like Keno, using video monitors and automated betting machines in bars and restaurants. New game every five minutes. All controlled by a computer in Albany, at the Lottery Commission's HQ.
Card Player: all gambling that takes place in my state is computer-controlled. There's something in the laws covering the lottery that allows for gambling, but it's controlled in the same way as the lottery, completely electronically - slot machines, poker tables, roulette, craps, etc. They seem to like the elimination of the human element - many successful cheating scams involve the use of an inside man or woman. No cards to crimp or notch, no dice to switch, no wheel to rig.
I have my doubts that table gaming will vanish completely - but they might eventually be as popular as buggy whips and Conestoga wagons. As far as how many slot machines can fit in the same space as a gaming table - sure, just one table, but you have up to eight people playing on that table, not just one like the slot machines. People do like the human touch, but gaming commissions want tighter security and controls on how gaming is conducted. But until there are computers that have a human touch to how they interact with people, people will never disappear entirely from inside the gaming tables.
So back to the deck...
Here's E's latest on FB:
https://www.facebook.com/ellusionist/photos/a.10150578138596161.375050.61472466160/10152666016411161/?type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/ellusionist/photos/a.10150578138596161.375050.61472466160/10152666016411161/?type=1&theater)
Yeah, better hurry, these are running out fast and the remaining few will only be available for promotions ???
I guess they're planning on a lot of promotions. I just checked and as of the time of this post there were still over 3100 left in stock. This deck is just not selling.
This deck is going to end up as an albatross. They thought they struck gold with those whacky side-only borders, but they look ridiculous. It was quite possibly the worst deck to kick off the free deck program for Black Club members.
And yes, Daniel Madison himself is a charming fellow, judging from the E event in Brooklyn last year.
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Lee: New York State actually has a lottery game that functions exactly like Keno, using video monitors and automated betting machines in bars and restaurants. New game every five minutes. All controlled by a computer in Albany, at the Lottery Commission's HQ.
Card Player: all gambling that takes place in my state is computer-controlled. There's something in the laws covering the lottery that allows for gambling, but it's controlled in the same way as the lottery, completely electronically - slot machines, poker tables, roulette, craps, etc. They seem to like the elimination of the human element - many successful cheating scams involve the use of an inside man or woman. No cards to crimp or notch, no dice to switch, no wheel to rig.
@ Don: I believe the lottery game your referring to that functions like Keno is called "Quick Draw". I'll have to remind myself next time I'm in "your state" to play that. lol
There are a few reasons why I prefer the human element. Cheating is not one that I've ever considered. I know collusion is always possible. However, I would think it much easier to find an inside person to rig/hack a machine, coding or a network, then take a chance with the casino's eye in the sky or casino security.
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@ Don: I believe the lottery game your referring to that functions like Keno is called "Quick Draw". I'll have to remind myself next time I'm in "your state" to play that. lol
There are a few reasons why I prefer the human element. Cheating is not one that I've ever considered. I know collusion is always possible. However, I would think it much easier to find an inside person to rig/hack a machine, coding or a network, then take a chance with the casino's eye in the sky or casino security.
Yes, it's Quick Draw! Not as many places have it these days, though. For all I know, the game's been phased out. Now that I think of it, it's been a number of years since I saw a Quick Draw-equipped establishment, and the few that did have it were rarely busy as a result of people wanting to play. More often than not, it was ignored - just another TV screen in a place full of TV screens, most of which never get watched unless there's a sporting event on.
Collusion or cheating would be considerably simpler for a floor worker running a table. Not that they wouldn't get caught, mind you, but it's easier. The other games would require a deep knowledge of how the games work. The network running the machines isn't even directly connected to the Internet - it's a closed system, unhackable other than on premises. So, as the casino owner, you can either have live tables with hundreds of security personnel, or computer-controlled tables with a few dozen security personnel. They'll take the cheaper option, every time.
Additionally, it's not like the state's gaming authority isn't present. They can detect intrusions taking place in the network, and the network's too small for one to not get caught. It would be difficult to succeed and would require the collusion of a LOT of casino employees in security and IT. I'm pretty sure they're not even using computers equipped with a USB connection!
But yes, we are getting back into a tangent that should have died by now. We'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.
I still think this deck design was a mistake. Another case where being different doesn't add up to being better.
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Collusion or cheating would be considerably simpler for a floor worker running a table. Not that they wouldn't get caught, mind you, but it's easier. The other games would require a deep knowledge of how the games work. The network running the machines isn't even directly connected to the Internet - it's a closed system, unhackable other than on premises. So, as the casino owner, you can either have live tables with hundreds of security personnel, or computer-controlled tables with a few dozen security personnel. They'll take the cheaper option, every time.
@ Don
Your right about the casino being a closed system. I was being too general and grouping all automated systems together including online gambling. Online gambling is constantly getting hacked. I remember hearing one story about one of the poker sites being hacked by its own employee for years. I'm sure there would be a way an employee of a gambling machine manufacture to rig a machine the same way.
The problem with the theory that casinos would rather go all automated because it saves them money is the other end of the spectrum. Losing customers and less money volume to another casinos willing to keep a human element present. I think there needs to be a balance of both and there is in most casinos. Plus a casino that becomes over automated risks the loss of customers that no longer see the point in traveling to a casino because of online app options.
I'm thinking most casino's (where applicable) will never 100% lose physical gaming tables and risk the loss of business. Casinos rely on "volume" as much as they do profit margin. It's guys like me that prefer physical gaming, that brings people with them to the casino (family, friends, etc.).
It would be a sad day when the WSOP becomes automated.
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Hey guys, let's stay on topic here. Love this deck or bash it either way.
If you want to talk casino/gambling please start a new topic.
Thanks
For me, I don't think the deck is too bad. It's definitely not the same old, same old from Madison. I received my 2 decks today.
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@ Don
Your right about the casino being a closed system. I was being too general and grouping all automated systems together including online gambling. Online gambling is constantly getting hacked. I remember hearing one story about one of the poker sites being hacked by its own employee for years. I'm sure there would be a way an employee of a gambling machine manufacture to rig a machine the same way.
The problem with the theory that casinos would rather go all automated because it saves them money is the other end of the spectrum. Losing customers and less money volume to another casinos willing to keep a human element present. I think there needs to be a balance of both and there is in most casinos. Plus a casino that becomes over automated risks the loss of customers that no longer see the point in traveling to a casino because of online app options.
I'm thinking most casino's (where applicable) will never 100% lose physical gaming tables and risk the loss of business. Casinos rely on "volume" as much as they do profit margin. It's guys like me that prefer physical gaming, that brings people with them to the casino (family, friends, etc.).
It would be a sad day when the WSOP becomes automated.
As more states allow gaming and as technology improves, there will be more and more government-ordered controls placed. New York mandated that the human factor be eliminated - there's not a single human running a gaming table at any casino here. All the games are centrally controlled and the human factor for cheating has been removed, for the most part. At the minimum, you'd need an insider with extensive IT knowledge specific to the gaming industry to even attempt an "inside job" - and they get examined under a microscope before they're even hired. And precisely because online gaming with casinos are frequent targets of hackers, you will probably never see a casino with Internet-connected gaming terminals. So the argument about neighboring casinos doesn't stand up as well under such circumstances.
Sure, one could go to an out-of-state establishment, but they're not exactly next door. Atlantic City is closer to Philadelphia than New York - and Philly just introduced gaming recently, contributing to Atlantic City's inexorable downhill slide. Foxwoods in Connecticut is an hour away or more, at least from much of the city, and you need a car or a chartered bus to get there - millions of New Yorkers don't own cars because of the expense of maintenance and lack of parking combined with the extensive public transportation available. Empire City Casino at Yonkers Raceway is a five-minute public bus ride from a New York subway terminal in the North Bronx. It's cheap to get to and practically caters to the pensioner crowd looking for a little excitement.
Is it as much fun as AC or Las Vegas? Not really. But it's locked up so tight by the state, if you shoved a piece of coal into their network, in a week you'd have a diamond...
Hey guys, let's stay on topic here. Love this deck or bash it either way.
If you want to talk casino/gambling please start a new topic.
Thanks
For me, I don't think the deck is too bad. It's definitely not the same old, same old from Madison. I received my 2 decks today.
OK. CP, can we call this a truce and halt it here? If not, make a new topic in the Parlor and we'll carry on there.
The deck - it's not the most attractive deck I've ever seen. They're really stretching the casino metaphor with this one. And I have yet to find anyone that really loves those side-only borders, on this and on the Hustlers. When they came out, I yawned and ignored them. Go full bleed or don't - this is an example of trying to please everyone and in the end pleasing no one.
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@ Don
Your right about the casino being a closed system. I was being too general and grouping all automated systems together including online gambling. Online gambling is constantly getting hacked. I remember hearing one story about one of the poker sites being hacked by its own employee for years. I'm sure there would be a way an employee of a gambling machine manufacture to rig a machine the same way.
The problem with the theory that casinos would rather go all automated because it saves them money is the other end of the spectrum. Losing customers and less money volume to another casinos willing to keep a human element present. I think there needs to be a balance of both and there is in most casinos. Plus a casino that becomes over automated risks the loss of customers that no longer see the point in traveling to a casino because of online app options.
I'm thinking most casino's (where applicable) will never 100% lose physical gaming tables and risk the loss of business. Casinos rely on "volume" as much as they do profit margin. It's guys like me that prefer physical gaming, that brings people with them to the casino (family, friends, etc.).
It would be a sad day when the WSOP becomes automated.
And precisely because online gaming with casinos are frequent targets of hackers, you will probably never see a casino with Internet-connected gaming terminals. So the argument about neighboring casinos doesn't stand up as well under such circumstances.
http://www.theborgata.com/press/press-releases/current/online-gaming-apps-launched
I know your speaking about New York. I'm generally speaking about all casino's in the United States where legal. The casino real money online apps is happening. It's not just online poker gaming companies anymore. I'm sure more casino's will be getting in on the action. Why travel to a casino for fully automated gaming when you can do it from your smart device or home computer. I think the human element needs to stay in place to give people a reason to continue going to a casino. If it were up to me, I would flat out stop playing if everything became automated. I'm sure I'm not alone. I will never gamble at a New York Casino as long as the human element is removed.
OK. CP, can we call this a truce and halt it here?
I would say start a new topic but I'm done. I'm trying to keep my average posts per day below 1. :)) Truce!
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@ Don
Your right about the casino being a closed system. I was being too general and grouping all automated systems together including online gambling. Online gambling is constantly getting hacked. I remember hearing one story about one of the poker sites being hacked by its own employee for years. I'm sure there would be a way an employee of a gambling machine manufacture to rig a machine the same way.
The problem with the theory that casinos would rather go all automated because it saves them money is the other end of the spectrum. Losing customers and less money volume to another casinos willing to keep a human element present. I think there needs to be a balance of both and there is in most casinos. Plus a casino that becomes over automated risks the loss of customers that no longer see the point in traveling to a casino because of online app options.
I'm thinking most casino's (where applicable) will never 100% lose physical gaming tables and risk the loss of business. Casinos rely on "volume" as much as they do profit margin. It's guys like me that prefer physical gaming, that brings people with them to the casino (family, friends, etc.).
It would be a sad day when the WSOP becomes automated.
And precisely because online gaming with casinos are frequent targets of hackers, you will probably never see a casino with Internet-connected gaming terminals. So the argument about neighboring casinos doesn't stand up as well under such circumstances.
http://www.theborgata.com/press/press-releases/current/online-gaming-apps-launched
I know your speaking about New York. I'm generally speaking about all casino's in the United States where legal. The casino real money online apps is happening. It's not just online poker gaming companies anymore. I'm sure more casino's will be getting in on the action. Why travel to a casino for fully automated gaming when you can do it from your smart device or home computer. I think the human element needs to stay in place to give people a reason to continue going to a casino. If it were up to me, I would flat out stop playing if everything became automated. I'm sure I'm not alone. I will never gamble at a New York Casino as long as the human element is removed.
OK. CP, can we call this a truce and halt it here?
I would say start a new topic but I'm done. I'm trying to keep my average posts per day below 1. :)) Truce!
Ah, but the Borgata is the most successful Atlantic City casino for one reason - it's not just a casino. They have destination shopping, health spas, and so forth, making it much more interesting. It's MORE than a casino, giving people more reason to come. That's what will keep the casino business alive, especially in the era of so much competition. People will be the attraction, but not necessarily on the casino floor.
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@ Don
Your right about the casino being a closed system. I was being too general and grouping all automated systems together including online gambling. Online gambling is constantly getting hacked. I remember hearing one story about one of the poker sites being hacked by its own employee for years. I'm sure there would be a way an employee of a gambling machine manufacture to rig a machine the same way.
The problem with the theory that casinos would rather go all automated because it saves them money is the other end of the spectrum. Losing customers and less money volume to another casinos willing to keep a human element present. I think there needs to be a balance of both and there is in most casinos. Plus a casino that becomes over automated risks the loss of customers that no longer see the point in traveling to a casino because of online app options.
I'm thinking most casino's (where applicable) will never 100% lose physical gaming tables and risk the loss of business. Casinos rely on "volume" as much as they do profit margin. It's guys like me that prefer physical gaming, that brings people with them to the casino (family, friends, etc.).
It would be a sad day when the WSOP becomes automated.
And precisely because online gaming with casinos are frequent targets of hackers, you will probably never see a casino with Internet-connected gaming terminals. So the argument about neighboring casinos doesn't stand up as well under such circumstances.
http://www.theborgata.com/press/press-releases/current/online-gaming-apps-launched
I know your speaking about New York. I'm generally speaking about all casino's in the United States where legal. The casino real money online apps is happening. It's not just online poker gaming companies anymore. I'm sure more casino's will be getting in on the action. Why travel to a casino for fully automated gaming when you can do it from your smart device or home computer. I think the human element needs to stay in place to give people a reason to continue going to a casino. If it were up to me, I would flat out stop playing if everything became automated. I'm sure I'm not alone. I will never gamble at a New York Casino as long as the human element is removed.
OK. CP, can we call this a truce and halt it here?
I would say start a new topic but I'm done. I'm trying to keep my average posts per day below 1. :)) Truce!
Ah, but the Borgata is the most successful Atlantic City casino for one reason - it's not just a casino. They have destination shopping, health spas, and so forth, making it much more interesting. It's MORE than a casino, giving people more reason to come. That's what will keep the casino business alive, especially in the era of so much competition. People will be the attraction, but not necessarily on the casino floor.
I thought we had a truce? :)) Are you withdrawing your truce? lmao
Yes, many of the "good" casinos have restaurants, shopping, health spas, and so forth. Coincidentally those same casino's have both gaming tables with human dealers and automated games.
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Don't make me step in and separate you two! 8)
Remember there is a rather average deck of cards to be discussed here... ;)
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Okay, right off the bat: I got it totally wrong brother -- the deck obviously didn't sell out in 48 hours. I guess I missed off the zero on the end of that number.
This deck which was basically all an out Madison deck which has a back story like this one really should have sold out fast. Whilst most will say that Ellusionist missed the mark on the design, I'd be more inclined to say that they missed the mark on the hype and promotion. The deck arrived without any real fanfare, and just kind of released on an odd day.
Well, Madison's FB page claims that the decks are "almost gone" and the latest e-mail from Ellusionist claims that they are "selling fast". With something like 2900 left out of 5000, I'm not at all convinced.
At this rate, there'll be enough decks for E to give away in multiple promotions/competitions every single day for about 5 years.
Anyway, I got deck and whilst it does have the usual mediocre quality of USPCC, I do like the look of the cards and the side borders. I think the deck wouldn't look out of place at an expensive bar or casino.
Madison did claim that the cards had a similar stock and feel to the Rounders... and so I'm guessing that he must have meant the Private Reserve Rounders, because to me that's what they feel like -- the card stock is stiffer/snappier than the original black rounders. I like the fact that Madison sticks to using USPCC's standard coating/finish instead of that horrible magic finish.
One thing that surprised me was that despite having a casino theme, the cards are not traditionally cut. Therefore the top and bottom edges take a bit of a battering during shuffle work, and because the dark design is bled to those edges, the damage becomes visible, and you end up getting marked cards during games!
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HolyJJ, you nailed a lot of good point there.
I could be mistaken, but I was led to understand that they were planning to hold back somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000 decks, similar to what they did with the red Artifice deck. If that's the case, then yes, they are indeed nearly sold out. Otherwise, yeah, it's taking a while, but they are over the halfway mark.
I'm firmly of the opinion that if I wasn't given the deck as a result of still being a Black Club member, I would probably never have purchased this, for the reasons you pointed out and the reason why I never bought the Hustlers, which had the same flawed border AND a really goofball back design.
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Thanks for that info Don -- I genuinely had no idea how many Red Artifice decks Ellusionist had held back for promos/giveaways. I had taken a totally random guess at something like 750-1000, but that was just an arbitrary range. The numbers you've mentioned sounds pretty realistic... and so I guess the Lions Den hasn't done too badly, and that there is truth (albeit in a not-so-obvious manner) to what DM and Ellusionist are saying.
This time next week, the deck will probably not be around for purchase, kind of like what they did with the Red Artifice and Sultan Treasury... alternatively, they can take it in the Orange Hustlers direction whereby they are only available for purchase in the Black Club store. Another wild guess would make me lean towards the latter.
Had this deck been a T11 release, teaser photos would have first surfaced around July last year. I think maybe Ellusionist took it for granted that Lions Den would be an easy sell.
Whilst I did like the simple style Madison Rounders (during the time where that design style was still limited to the Wynn decks), now even that back design is becoming common. Now that Chris Chelko's WI Gamesters are going to be released this year, I don't see myself even thinking of Rounders again, seeing as the Gamesters have the same style, same sort of colours, but far superior card stock and coating, and much more practical face design. Madison needs to do something new.
After the Black Kings and Madison Revolvers, I'm really hoping that DM really will try something very different. On the sales page for the Black Rounders, the guy said that he believed that beautiful things are either very simple or very intricate. Well, we've seen a ton of overly simple stuff from him for a couple of years... and so I really hope now he takes a shot at the other extreme -- something that actually looks like hundreds of hours of design work was required!
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Okay, right off the bat: I got it totally wrong brother -- the deck obviously didn't sell out in 48 hours. I guess I missed off the zero on the end of that number.
This deck which was basically all an out Madison deck which has a back story like this one really should have sold out fast. Whilst most will say that Ellusionist missed the mark on the design, I'd be more inclined to say that they missed the mark on the hype and promotion. The deck arrived without any real fanfare, and just kind of released on an odd day.
Well, Madison's FB page claims that the decks are "almost gone" and the latest e-mail from Ellusionist claims that they are "selling fast". With something like 2900 left out of 5000, I'm not at all convinced.
At this rate, there'll be enough decks for E to give away in multiple promotions/competitions every single day for about 5 years.
Anyway, I got deck and whilst it does have the usual mediocre quality of USPCC, I do like the look of the cards and the side borders. I think the deck wouldn't look out of place at an expensive bar or casino.
Madison did claim that the cards had a similar stock and feel to the Rounders... and so I'm guessing that he must have meant the Private Reserve Rounders, because to me that's what they feel like -- the card stock is stiffer/snappier than the original black rounders. I like the fact that Madison sticks to using USPCC's standard coating/finish instead of that horrible magic finish.
One thing that surprised me was that despite having a casino theme, the cards are not traditionally cut. Therefore the top and bottom edges take a bit of a battering during shuffle work, and because the dark design is bled to those edges, the damage becomes visible, and you end up getting marked cards during games!
I don't think Ellusionist (E) missed the mark. I think they got it right. That's why only 5000 were printed. It was the same amount of hype as any other deck they sell. The only difference is black club got one free. As a company, you don't advertise less because the you don't think something will sell well, you advertise more. I believe E started seeing the writing on the wall with the Kings deck. IMHO, I believe E over-shot the print run with Kings. When they realized it was not selling as well as they thought , that's when all the questionable sell-outs and fast back in-stock sales techniques started happening. They probably had 15,000 Kings made. Taking that into consideration, they lowered the print run for the Lion's Den and raised the price per deck. The back story is terrible but it's probably true considering what I've seen of DM's cards these days. E does have the final say as to what decks they print, invest money into and sell on their website. I do hold E responsible for the over production of Madison decks, if for nothing more then allowing it to happen through them. They can always tell DM, No!
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Thanks for that info Don -- I genuinely had no idea how many Red Artifice decks Ellusionist had held back for promos/giveaways. I had taken a totally random guess at something like 750-1000, but that was just an arbitrary range. The numbers you've mentioned sounds pretty realistic... and so I guess the Lions Den hasn't done too badly, and that there is truth (albeit in a not-so-obvious manner) to what DM and Ellusionist are saying.
The precise figure is that 5,000 Artifice decks in red were printed. Ellusionist still feels (rightfully so) that this qualifies as "rare," though many collectors today would disagree. Of the 5,000, 3,000 were made available for sale, a sale that lasted less than a day. It was exceptionally difficult to purchase because the volume of buyers completely overloaded E's capacity to handle them. Sales were limited to not more than a brick per person, and they sold at the same prices as the other Artifice decks previously released (v1 blue). I think it was about $6.95. 2,000 were held back for promotional use, giveaways, contest prizes, etc.
Following the release date, it was the deck in shortest supply at E - while Gold Arcane and Bicycle Black Ghost 1st Edition were made in equally-small numbers and predated this release by months if not years, those decks were never made available for purchase. At this point, I know they're out of BG1E entirely - they announced it months ago - and the stocks of Gold Arcane and Red Artifice can't be far behind. Stocks of all three decks were heavily depleted during a holiday season promotion for December 2012. The oldest "go-to" giveaway deck they have now would likely be the Red LTD deck.
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Just a couple of weeks ago a new bunch of BG popped up again though...didn't they?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204950566699885&set=gm.696969740401968&type=1
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Just a couple of weeks ago a new bunch of BG popped up again though...didn't they?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204950566699885&set=gm.696969740401968&type=1
Your link is dead. Copy the photo and upload it next time - that way it can't vanish.
Are you certain that the deck you saw wasn't the still-in-print SECOND edition?
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Sorry Don,
Closed group maybe.
Anyway, Can't confirm 100% but this popped up a few weeks ago.
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Sorry Don,
Closed group maybe.
Anyway, Can't confirm 100% but this popped up a few weeks ago.
I can confirm from the tuck box that it is indeed Bicycle Black Ghost 1st Edition in the foreground. The taller stacks in the background and to the left are of Bicycle Black Tigers - at this angle and range, I can't tell if they're first run or not, nor can I see the telltale red indicating that it's not the all-white pips model, now discontinued and sold out.
The BG1E decks are shown being autographed by Peter McKinnon, who is in the photo. The decks on the top of those stacks of decks have been signed by at least two people, signatures visible in the top left and bottom left of the back of the tuck box - and judging from the spacing, there are more autographs to come. There's a stack of Black Club collector boxes on the right.
Just past the Black Tigers is a short stack of boxes. They're hard to read, but judging from the logo on them, they're Pyro Fireshooters.
If forced to guess, I'd say this is an enticement for new or lapsed BC members to join/rejoin.
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The Tigers are the red pips edition. The BG1's in the picture are most likely the very last of them. It's common practice to hold back a handful to cover any issues with damaged ones, these are probably those now being signed and (I would guess) will pop up in the E Rewards store.