PlayingCardForum.com - A Discourse For Playing Cards
Playing Card Chat ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦ => Playing Card Plethora => Topic started by: Rob Wright on September 12, 2014, 02:49:04 AM
-
Silver Arrow, Luxury playing cards by Jackson Robinson (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1722808047/silver-arrow-luxury-playing-cards-by-jackson-robin)
(http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1722808047/silver-arrow-luxury-playing-cards-by-jackson-robin/minichart.png) (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1722808047/silver-arrow-luxury-playing-cards-by-jackson-robin/)
Care to expand Anthony?
(https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-1/p48x48/10574368_772002592837889_5291488239609895077_n.jpg?oh=f6af9ffec295797367007a1da70a4be1&oe=548501FE&__gda__=1419337698_93b58170b904026a3d2b985151cd3887) Kardify.com shared a link.
about an hour ago
First Look: Mysterious drawing...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ru1t307gAQ4/VBKCRYmgeXI/AAAAAAAAC6A/ccN8d6RMmL8/s1600/10678155_10204113212244082_1212635789_o.jpg)
Kardify - The Latest Playing Card News, Reviews and Previews: Drawing ? ? ?
www.kardify.com
-
Nope ;D
-
I apologize, let me rephrase that..........I can't at this time ;)
-
First look continued....
Drawing - The act of pulling an arrow against a bow string in readiness for shooting
-
I'm liking the concept. Now if we could just DRAW more than one piece at a time out of you...
-
I'm liking the concept. Now if we could just DRAW more than one piece at a time out of you...
LOL, where's the fun in that Will? :)
-
LOL, where's the fun in that Will? :)
Any idea on a timeframe, at least? Or do you just enjoy keeping everyone in suspense?
-
From what I see, I already want. This going to pop up this year?
-
hmmmmmm. Black Rhino?
-
NOVUM VEXILLUM?
novum (plural nova)
1.A new feature.
vexillum (plural vexilla)
1.A flag, banner, or standard.
2.A company of troops serving under one standard.
3.The sign of the cross.
The New Standard :-\
.............also purposely blurred out in the first picture
(https://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQC5PzcfKQL84EIA&w=484&h=253&url=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-AwfDJUgn9C8%2FVBKAVsvio9I%2FAAAAAAAAC5w%2Fsa_YUhZtbew%2Fs1600%2F6546546541.jpg&cfs=1)
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/p280x280/10660339_778963328808482_1241525167356490614_n.jpg?oh=76b187ed05f76ccf3c1cc474e8ae839c&oe=54888F46)
There is speculation that Jackson has something to do with this.......
..........but the first hit on Google for NOVUM VEXILLUM Playing Cards is Ade Suryana. Designer of AQUILA!
Another Kardify project for KS or KWF ? ? ?
or
KEM Arrow Backs?
(http://www.playingcardsandmore.com/images/products/detail/ArrowPokerbacks.2.gif)
-
Something to brighten your Monday morning :)
-
That looks good :) and I'm loving that price. 4 for $24, what's that limited to? Assuming international costs are separate?
It's coming out in November, yet still no name or designer or company or anything :karrit:
-
Ok, I'm in. This looks awesome. That king made it for me. I like how you use parts of the same pattern for almost all art.
-
Reveal number one...........
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/10397021_788007581237390_112621672265907911_o.jpg)
-
$72!
:o
:D
:bosswalk:
-
October 11th at what time? Some of us need to set a countdown calendar!
What little has been shown about the cards looks excellent. Tuck..meh. Won't stop me from buying these!
-
October 11th at what time? Some of us need to set a countdown calendar!
What little has been shown about the cards looks excellent. Tuck..meh. Won't stop me from buying these!
I would say smart marketing. Kind of like a soap opera. Give you just a little bit of the picture, just enough to peak your interest, make you come back for more.
-
You can do tease advertising up to a point - then it just gets annoying to modern audiences. It's been used and overused so many times, some of its power is blunted. Well, that and the fact that the typical modern American seems to have the attention span of a squirrel...
-
You can do tease advertising up to a point - then it just gets annoying to modern audiences. It's been used and overused so many times, some of its power is blunted. Well, that and the fact that the typical modern American seems to have the attention span of a squirrel...
There's a Squirrel?! Where?? Oh, sorry, I got distracted, what were you saying?
Promising price on a good looking deck. Is it bad that I am immediately sceptical of the quality and wondering if any bells or whistles will be a part of this deck at all? I like embossing; I like Foil... Oh a penny! *wanders off absently*
-
You can do tease advertising up to a point - then it just gets annoying to modern audiences. It's been used and overused so many times, some of its power is blunted. Well, that and the fact that the typical modern American seems to have the attention span of a squirrel...
Yea, tease advertising can be terrible. How long did we hear about Gatorbacks? It turned so many people off that it took 30 min to sell out instead of 15. Poor David Blaine ???
There's a Squirrel?! Where?? Oh, sorry, I got distracted, what were you saying?
Promising price on a good looking deck. Is it bad that I am immediately sceptical of the quality and wondering if any bells or whistles will be a part of this deck at all? I like embossing; I like Foil... Oh a penny! *wanders off absently*
I'm assuming it will be EPCC/LPCC or USPCC printing, so I'm sure the quality is fine. As far as not having the bells and whistles. No problem for me. At this price point, I won't cringe when I see my kids crunch & bunch shuffle the cards.
-
Yea, tease advertising can be terrible. How long did we hear about Gatorbacks? It turned so many people off that it took 30 min to sell out instead of 15. Poor David Blaine ???
In the case of David Blaine, he could package a box of garbage he used during a performance and people will buy it by the metric ton. People buy his decks in part because they're the same decks he uses when he's out and about or filming a TV special.
Remember the initial reception of the Theory11 Monarchs? For weeks, they were being pushed as the greatest deck since paper was invented - the hype and tease reached epic proportions. When they came out and turned out to be a) different than advertised and b) decent but rather mundane, the product damn near flopped.
T11 was smart to stick with it and it became a staple deck in their lineup, but you may have noticed they haven't done a big tease campaign for anything since. Closest they did was a few photos of a deck in the shadows about two weeks before the release - and that was it, period. That was for the rare White Monarchs.
Make a teaser campaign run too long and people will eventually lose interest. A modern buyer these days has seen the tactic used dozens if not hundreds of times; it just doesn't hold the same attention as it did when the tactic was new. The best tactics, in advertising as well as warfare, are the ones that the target never sees coming, the ones that leave them completely surprised and off-balance.
-
Remember the initial reception of the Theory11 Monarchs? For weeks, they were being pushed as the greatest deck since paper was invented - the hype and tease reached epic proportions. When they came out and turned out to be a) different than advertised and b) decent but rather mundane, the product damn near flopped.
T11 was smart to stick with it and it became a staple deck in their lineup, but you may have noticed they haven't done a big tease campaign for anything since. Closest they did was a few photos of a deck in the shadows about two weeks before the release - and that was it, period. That was for the rare White Monarchs.
Didn't T11 do one recently for the Mystery Box/Bad Robot Deck as well? And it...well...didn't go that well too either. The thing is, the teaser shouldn't be taking weeks or months to show itself. Give it a week, anything more and i will lose interest and just wait for you to show the whole damn thing before i get into it again, or maybe that is just me?
The best tactics, in advertising as well as warfare, are the ones that the target never sees coming, the ones that leave them completely surprised and off-balance.
Ta-Dah! It is actually a Halloween Zombie Deck! With Zombie Bowman holding Silver Bow & Arrows!
-
Remember the initial reception of the Theory11 Monarchs? For weeks, they were being pushed as the greatest deck since paper was invented - the hype and tease reached epic proportions. When they came out and turned out to be a) different than advertised and b) decent but rather mundane, the product damn near flopped.
T11 was smart to stick with it and it became a staple deck in their lineup, but you may have noticed they haven't done a big tease campaign for anything since. Closest they did was a few photos of a deck in the shadows about two weeks before the release - and that was it, period. That was for the rare White Monarchs.
Didn't T11 do one recently for the Mystery Box/Bad Robot Deck as well? And it...well...didn't go that well too either. The thing is, the teaser shouldn't be taking weeks or months to show itself. Give it a week, anything more and i will lose interest and just wait for you to show the whole damn thing before i get into it again, or maybe that is just me?
The best tactics, in advertising as well as warfare, are the ones that the target never sees coming, the ones that leave them completely surprised and off-balance.
Ta-Dah! It is actually a Halloween Zombie Deck! With Zombie Bowman holding Silver Bow & Arrows!
These look quite good!
I don't think the question mark is meant to be a mystery deck. They just used it in place of a possible limited deck that has yet to be revealed. :))
-
Last look........
-
Now LIVE on Kickstarter!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1722808047/silver-arrow-luxury-playing-cards-by-jackson-robin?ref=nav_search (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1722808047/silver-arrow-luxury-playing-cards-by-jackson-robin?ref=nav_search)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/715/741/63762c14b77bc40a61fb96252a6ebc51_large.jpg?1412882868)
-
Finally an attempt to print a less expensive deck in larger numbers. I hope this project succeeds so that JR might lead the way to a few similar projects in the future.
Now, if only I could convince him of switching the indices' colors to some shade of red for the Diamonds and Hearts. ;D
-
Agreed Marcus, and I understand your point on the Red............19 days to go, a lot could happen :)
-
Finally an attempt to print a less expensive deck in larger numbers. I hope this project succeeds so that JR might lead the way to a few similar projects in the future.
Now, if only I could convince him of switching the indices' colors to some shade of red for the Diamonds and Hearts. ;D
Thanks Marcus for the encouraging words. I have my fingers crossed I REALLY don't want to relaunch this again at the "Same Old" $12 a deck price with Super Duper Limited Editions... That is just getting old.
As for the red in the pips I knew you were going to voice that for sure. :) I feel you, for sure but I really really think the red will completely contaminate the entire them of the deck. There is a very good chance that we will test out some new metallic inks that are super reflective but that is still in the air.
Thanks again for your support Marcus your input is greatly appreciated and valued.
-
Finally an attempt to print a less expensive deck in larger numbers. I hope this project succeeds so that JR might lead the way to a few similar projects in the future.
Now, if only I could convince him of switching the indices' colors to some shade of red for the Diamonds and Hearts. ;D
@Marcus
There might be an option that I'm willing to look into...
What if I kept the "all silver" theme only in the Pearl Edition and then maybe introduced metallic red ink into the Slate Edition. There are some production things I would have to look into but I do like the idea of pushing both decks even further from each other, but no commitment yet. ;)
-
Finally an attempt to print a less expensive deck in larger numbers. I hope this project succeeds so that JR might lead the way to a few similar projects in the future.
Now, if only I could convince him of switching the indices' colors to some shade of red for the Diamonds and Hearts. ;D
@Marcus
There might be an option that I'm willing to look into...
What if I kept the "all silver" theme only in the Pearl Edition and then maybe introduced metallic red ink into the Slate Edition. There are some production things I would have to look into but I do like the idea of pushing both decks even further from each other, but no commitment yet. ;)
There are so many things to like about these decks! I love the fact they are mostly black, white and silver. I also really like the court cards. Looks like your best line work yet for your standard courts. Are you holding back the joker images? What about a king with a gas mask a la Lord of the Rings with a thousand silver arrows raining down on him! Would be a killer diptych too.
For me, the diamond pips are difficult to tell they are diamonds. I think it has to do with the fact they are mostly white. I like the idea of red pips, or even a base silver/gray pips might be an improvement, but the way they are now, to me, the diamonds don't look like diamonds, and they would fit with the current theme. Basically the diamond pip you have now but the colors reversed.
The back design is killer.
It seems like many some of the complaints from collectors is wanting to get the pearl edition too. If the goal is to get people to buy the brick for the pearl deck bonus, what about a compromise and add an add-on for D1 brick people to purchase one extra Pearl deck, so they can have 2. Or an interesting experiment would be to open up a tier E1, where it's 11 slates + 2 pearl decks for $100 (lower of course would be better) and see what happens. Haters are going to hate regardless, but those open and deck and keep a deck collectors would be happier, and the bulk of people pledging for bricks right now are probably collectors. Win-win?
-
@troy - "For me, the diamond pips are difficult to tell they are diamonds" I agree, but I only see a couple of cards. It seems these custom pips are really customized. Almost to the point to where it makes its own suit. I think Jackson has come up with the solution with adding metallic red. What would be a good experiment is to get a demo deck done without the red and get some random ppl to play some poker. If some ppl start to complain, then you know you have a problem. I would hate for Jackson to stub his toe and commit to 25,000 decks only to find out there is a question to the functionality of the cards. Sure, keep the Pearl the same and keep the theme. Nobody is going to use them anyways. They're going to be in nice pretty deck displays.
-
I would also really like to be able to have more than one pearl deck for my collection! I pledged for a brick, and while it's more than I probably would've otherwise, I'm ok with that, but I really can't justify adding another brick to get another pearl deck... It would be really great if there were a way to get a few more pearl decks!
-
Now, if only I could convince him of switching the indices' colors to some shade of red for the Diamonds and Hearts. ;D
I know it feels so wrong to look at Hearts and Diamond pips not in red, also the Clubs pip is weird. Apart from all that beautiful, amazing, stunning court cards! LOVE the detail!
-
Looks like the 1st update to the project may make some people happy.
-
@Jackson - Nice compromise. I think you made a lot of people happy. In fact, that update might knock 3 birds with one stone. You might get rid of that typo in the D1 tier. I'm sure it's an eye sore. I doubt it though; You will always have that one person who won't switch over to the E1 tier no matter what you do.
-
Looks like the 1st update to the project may make some people happy.
Yay! Red pips! Now the deck is perfect! :D
-
Another awesome project by JR.
I just can't believe people are bitching about paying $72 for a brick of cards on KS :-\
Of course it doesn't help that, as usual, Victor is spewing crap from his pie hole.
-
Finally an attempt to print a less expensive deck in larger numbers. I hope this project succeeds so that JR might lead the way to a few similar projects in the future.
Now, if only I could convince him of switching the indices' colors to some shade of red for the Diamonds and Hearts. ;D
@Marcus
There might be an option that I'm willing to look into...
What if I kept the "all silver" theme only in the Pearl Edition and then maybe introduced metallic red ink into the Slate Edition. There are some production things I would have to look into but I do like the idea of pushing both decks even further from each other, but no commitment yet. ;)
Glad to see you went for the compromise. The lack of contrast between the black and gray (it IS gray, right?) makes it difficult to use in a practical setting.
@Jackson - Nice compromise. I think you made a lot of people happy. In fact, that update might knock 3 birds with one stone. You might get rid of that typo in the D1 tier. I'm sure it's an eye sore. I doubt it though; You will always have that one person who won't switch over to the E1 tier no matter what you do.
You can't change a tier if it has at least one backer. The typo can't be fixed or deleted. But at least they aren't "god decks"! Sure, he can ask people to switch tiers, but you'll always have that one person who doesn't notice or pay attention to the request.
Another awesome project by JR.
I just can't believe people are bitching about paying $72 for a brick of cards on KS :-\
Of course it doesn't help that, as usual, Victor is spewing crap from his pie hole.
Bitching about buying a brick in general isn't so unjustified - many collectors NEVER buy by the brick. It's a lot of cards and even at $6 a deck it's a big purchase. I rarely buy by the brick other than for special items, usually ones that I'll use a lot or have vintage value. Even Variety Boxes are a stretch for me.
Now, what the hell is Victor on about? Aren't you glad he's been banned from spewing crap in this direction?
-
Now that Jackson has made the addition of the red ink to the Slate decks, and doubled the number of Pearl decks in each Brick to 2, I've upped my four deck order to an E1 Brick with the two Pearl decks.
And I hope enough of us collectors will do the same so these decks can reach their goal and get printed.
They may not be collectible, with 25,000 decks, but at $6.00 per deck, including the much ballyhooed and discussed shipping from the last few months, I can afford to use these decks for just about any purpose; and still be able to buy more later.
Now if Jackson would also make this kind of deal on his Tally-Ho's...
Will Hart
Fullerton, California
-
Jackson, just wanted to say thanks for the 10/2 brick, I appreciate you making more of the not-LE Pearl editions available to us. it will also allow people that can't justify spending up for the brick a chance to get them a little more readily after the project from those of us who only want to keep one for our collections.
I just can't believe people are bitching about paying $72 for a brick of cards on KS :-\
Bitching about buying a brick in general isn't so unjustified - many collectors NEVER buy by the brick. It's a lot of cards and even at $6 a deck it's a big purchase. I rarely buy by the brick other than for special items, usually ones that I'll use a lot or have vintage value. Even Variety Boxes are a stretch for me.
I am one of the one's Don is talking about. A brick is a tough pill to swallow, I only want one of each version, and especially with this project, the decks are so cheap that it makes selling the other 9/1 I don't want a struggle. But I don't think it's worth complaining about. I really support Jacksons effort here to try and shift the culture of custom cards away from expensive limited decks, but I am really going to feel it after this project ends and that $72 hits my bank account.
-
Victor? Who is that guy? Is that Him?
-
Jackson, just wanted to say thanks for the 10/2 brick, I appreciate you making more of the not-LE Pearl editions available to us. it will also allow people that can't justify spending up for the brick a chance to get them a little more readily after the project from those of us who only want to keep one for our collections.
I just can't believe people are bitching about paying $72 for a brick of cards on KS :-\
Bitching about buying a brick in general isn't so unjustified - many collectors NEVER buy by the brick. It's a lot of cards and even at $6 a deck it's a big purchase. I rarely buy by the brick other than for special items, usually ones that I'll use a lot or have vintage value. Even Variety Boxes are a stretch for me.
I am one of the one's Don is talking about. A brick is a tough pill to swallow, I only want one of each version, and especially with this project, the decks are so cheap that it makes selling the other 9/1 I don't want a struggle. But I don't think it's worth complaining about. I really support Jacksons effort here to try and shift the culture of custom cards away from expensive limited decks, but I am really going to feel it after this project ends and that $72 hits my bank account.
I, too, totally agree we should support Jacksons effort to show other designers that it is not necessary to create an expensive deck to be successful.
But at $72 a brick and $50,000 goal, he needs about 700 backers to buy a brick each to get this project funded. I don't mean to be an @ss here but it probably needs some boosting from somewhere, or it might not reach the target. I personally pledged for a brick, but like what some of us are already saying, not all of us need a brick. Even i do not need a brick, at the very most 4 decks. I am a collector, not a card player or reseller (even though i sell some of my extra decks online, i do not buy decks on a basis of reselling it).
DB's Gatorback prices are slowly dipping on ebay because of the low cost from the website. It is only dipping "slowly" because it cannot be purchased anymore and no news from DB that it will ever be reprinted.
I do hope Jackson can continue making his slate deck a cheap, easily accessible deck, but his pearl edition a much more limited 1. Make it only 2000 printed rather than a minimum of 2000 will be printed depending on pledge. In all honesty, i doubt there will be 1000 brick backers, but the way you phrase it might entice more people to back a brick. State clearly the pearl edition might not be available after KS, used only as a giveaway, and the slate edition, though still affordable after the project, will be more expensive at your website. Hopefully it will get more of the existing backers to up their pledge. I really hope i won't have to re-pledge in another of those $12 Super Duper Limited Editions as well.
-
I think you really need to look at and understand the opposite side of the coin, we talk about hoping this succeesds so that other designers can see it's a viable option..........what's the message if it doesn't?
Simple, inexpensive decks won't be coming from independant designers. It takes a lot of product to make a decks selling price low, and if the message that rings out from Arrows is that it can't be done on a crowd funding platform, nobody's going to even approach that as an option.
While many gripe about the high cost of decks and artificially inflated LE pricing and strategies, it really seems that's what the masses want.....not everyone, but more than those who don't apparently. This project isn't just about Jackson and KW, it can set the stage for what "won't" happen again.
The fact that so many fixated on the Pearl Edition speaks volumes about how we as collectors, enthusiast, etc... have been conditioned.
Also, while everyone likes to "Talk" a good game, at least Jackson's giving it a go, because I can pretty much guarantee that it woulld have been easeier and more lucrative to launch something callled "Federal 52 Part 2" and just ignore the constant cry for less expensive decks........but he didn't.
So we'll see what happens
-
I think you really need to look at and understand the opposite side of the coin, we talk about hoping this succeesds so that other designers can see it's a viable option..........what's the message if it doesn't?
I think you make a good point here Anthony,
large production run of cheap selling decks is harder to do, and if Jackson Robinson can't make it work then I don't think an indie designer will be able to; but I do think Jackson is doing the right thing by taking what so many have been saying for some time and putting it into action.
I don't mind paying $15 for a deck, but I mind when people expect every deck they create is worth $15, the hope is that this can pave the way for people to start being more comfortable with large prints and smaller per deck prices. I honestly don't think this will succeed, but I think this is one of many good first steps in the right direction to help shift the mindset.
-
While many gripe about the high cost of decks and artificially inflated LE pricing and strategies, it really seems that's what the masses want.....not everyone, but more than those who don't apparently. This project isn't just about Jackson and KW, it can set the stage for what "won't" happen again.
The fact that so many fixated on the Pearl Edition speaks volumes about how we as collectors, enthusiast, etc... have been conditioned.
The truth is many other projects out there can hit their target also often depends on the variety that is being offered. I have seen people release one great deck, but might not be able to hit the target because people just don't need that many of the same decks, and that is with $12-15 decks and maybe a 25,000 funding goal.
I am not crazy. I definitely would like more $6 decks in the market. I'm just saying people will not buy 12 decks just because it is cheap, and put it somewhere in their storage drawer. The playing card market is still considerably small. Jackson's Fed 52 is definitely one great success, but most other successful card projects usually end up with 700-1200 backers. Many that just made their funding goal often have 300-500 backers. With a low deck cost and higher funding goal, it simply means you either need more backers or higher pledges from each backer.
Silver Arrow is definitely a well-designed deck, and probably will hit 700+ or even more backers when the project ends. But how many actually buys bricks or anything more than 2-4 decks? I'm just saying there needs to have LE or other "incentives"/limited time & availability/stretch goals to attract people to 1) increase their pledges, 2) attract "watchers" to make their pledges 3) get more people to spread word about this project.
BTW, LE need not be expensive as well. It can be just something with a limited print run that can not be purchased easily elsewhere or at the same price point again outside of the initial launch. I don't think this is about a project to create another standard deck or rider back that everybody can get after the project ends, because if that is what it is, then people will wait till it is out in the open market to buy them. (It is just human when given a choice, to go for items that they cannot obtain in a near future rather than something they feel they can get anytime they want). It is more about creating custom decks with everything available in the market right now, (foil, LE, metallic ink, embossing, better grade stock, custom seals...etc.) all at a reasonable, affordable, less inflated pricing.
EDIT: I also am putting focus on the Pearl because, based on simple demand and supply logic, trying to convince people that a 25,000 print run slate edition will not be available for sale after the KS project, and getting people to think the price will be super inflated in the resale market should seem a tad difficult.
-
I think the basic concept of a readily-available deck with a nice custom design at a price lower than most decks is outstanding. But it should never have been launched on Kickstarter. He should have had the deck printed and offered if for sale, plain and simple. Do you ever see companies like Ellusionist, Theory11, Dan & Dave, David Blaine, etc. selling their common, inexpensive decks on Kickstarter? NO! They print in similar quantities to what this deck will cost and they get a steep-enough discount per deck that they can sell them cheaper than most Kickstarter decks, even after you account for shipping.
I think the idea of a limited version of a common deck is not exactly unheard of - who remembers trying to buy Ellusionist's Red Artifice deck when it was first released? But - and I've said this before in other places - the mere existence of a deck is no guarantee that you'll be able to get that deck. It could be, as in this case, part of a special "customer loyalty" offer you aren't willing to participate in, or it's too rare, too expensive, not for sale, only available to the first person to crack the Grand Unified Theory, only available as a gift for staying at the first orbital hotel, only found in Davy Jones' locker, awarded as a gift for beating the goddess Diana in a footrace, etc.
Collectors - you buy what makes you happy and is within your means. Let others buy the expensive stuff and they'll have less cash when the next cool deck comes out - a golden opportunity to be that lucky recipient.
Would it be great if we could control pricing on decks of cards, so all of them were affordable, and quantities, so they'd be are rare or common as we want them to be? Perhaps. But that is a pipe dream that will never happen, not in a free-market economy. Jackson was not entirely unsympathetic, to the point of sweetening the offer to include two rare decks. But it's his choice and his choice alone as to how and why his decks are priced and available as they are.
Decks of cards are like trains at rush hour - there will always be another train coming to the station, and sometimes faster than you'd think.
-
I think the pockets of Ellusionist and Theory 11 are a tad deeper than Jackson's Don.
That being said, even D&D are trying to absorb costs with Deckstarter.
-
I think the pockets of Ellusionist and Theory 11 are a tad deeper than Jackson's Don.
That being said, even D&D are trying to absorb costs with Deckstarter.
They are not absorbing anything over at Deckstarter - every deck offered was already printed before the project began. Where I come from, that isn't crowdfunding - it's retail. They're disguising it as crowdfunding and selling it to people who are into high design, hence the high price tags and limited numbers, the antithesis of what Jackson's attempting here.
Theory11 and Ellusionist have deeper pockets, but they also carry far more than just playing cards in their inventory, in addition to producing videos.
Considering the costs, I could imagine Jackson would have the needed funds to make it. But as Kickstarter is more of a marketplace than an idea incubator these days, it does seem natural to continue with the practice of launching projects. If you want to reduce risk, you can have pre-orders. But if you want the built-in audience, you go to Kickstarter.
A basic, bare-bones deck from USPC printed in a lot of 5,000 would cost in the ballpark of $2.50-$3.00 per deck. Quadruple the order size and the price will drop significantly, probably somewhere under $2.00 a deck. But that does require more outlets than simply Kickstarter to sell them through - except for the fact that Jackson's pushing a more-limited version of the deck only available when people buy by the brick. He's counting on high brick sales, perhaps a thousand bricks or so, since he's offering two rare decks per brick.
-
But that does require more outlets than simply Kickstarter to sell them through - except for the fact that Jackson's pushing a more-limited version of the deck only available when people buy by the brick. He's counting on high brick sales, perhaps a thousand bricks or so, since he's offering two rare decks per brick.
That is why i was saying Jackson should be changing the "marketing" a little. Telling people no more than 2000 LE decks will be sold, and telling them that all surplus from KS will only be used as giveways, or sold at a much much MUCH higher price point. Pledgers are still getting it at $6 a deck irregardless. These gives people more reasons to want to pledge a brick.
If everyone thinks they can get a LE edition in the resale market at say, $15 for the LE, or $20 for a set of both. They most likely will not pledge a brick for $72 and get additional decks that they do not need. Also, not everybody who buys decks are actually keen on re-selling them, and those who resell the slate editions (where most of the extra decks will be), they will be competing with a very high number of resellers selling the same deck at a low profit margin.
Like what Don said, Jackson should have printed, took pre-orders, and sold them via his website. If you launch it on KS, you might get more audience than your own website, but you will need a different marketing strategy as well.
-
Couldn't Jackson just invest personal capital to make up the difference he needs to close this project? Assuming whatever doesn't sell through Kickstarter will sell through his site and he comps whatever doesn't get made by backers than this is a sound strategy. Assume he has the capital to produce without crowd funding, why not run a KS project anyways to get as much as you can from backers and kick in the rest yourself?
-
Couldn't Jackson just invest personal capital to make up the difference he needs to close this project? Assuming whatever doesn't sell through Kickstarter will sell through his site and he comps whatever doesn't get made by backers than this is a sound strategy. Assume he has the capital to produce without crowd funding, why not run a KS project anyways to get as much as you can from backers and kick in the rest yourself?
He probably could afford to fund the rest of the project... but I bet he'll cancel and relaunch with a lower goal and maybe even a new strategy. The problem with him kicking in the rest on this project is the fact he would be pissing away 10% in fees to KS and Amazon.
I like the concept of the cheaper decks (based on higher print quantity) and I think the concept can work using a different approach.
-
Of all the Kings wild decks, this one is my favorite. A shame it probably won't fund in his current campaign.....
-
Couldn't Jackson just invest personal capital to make up the difference he needs to close this project? Assuming whatever doesn't sell through Kickstarter will sell through his site and he comps whatever doesn't get made by backers than this is a sound strategy. Assume he has the capital to produce without crowd funding, why not run a KS project anyways to get as much as you can from backers and kick in the rest yourself?
On Kickstarter, you can start a project with a low goal and mention to those who think your goal is too low that you're making up the gap with your own funds. But you can't invest in your own Kickstarter project. If he was going to partially fund it himself, he had to create his goal with that in mind in the first place - he can't do anything about it after the fact that doesn't violate the TOS.
The reason for this would be for people trying to create fraudulent projects. There was a project for a Durak deck that had an exceptionally simple design and the goal was in the low thousands. In the last weeks of funding, they received a sudden boost in funding, to the tune of thousands of dollars. This brings in all the people who were standing on the sidelines to see if the deck was even going to make its goal (rather than actually helping it reach the goal). This can be a sign of someone artificially manipulating the funding levels to attract investment. It can also be a sign of a potential fraud. Kickstarter ended up shutting down the Durak deck project before it ended but after it had achieved its funding goal - people complained, they investigated and discovered that the mystery funding came from the project creator.
It's also why a lot of people look at Deckstarter with a jaundiced eye - every project there was pre-made before "crowdfunding" began, and only reached their goal after the Bucks themselves invested thousands of dollars. I've said this before - that's not crowdfunding, it's retail in a crowdfunding costume.
-
I read that last post quickly, and seriously thought I read, "...that's not crowdfunding, it's retail in a clown costume"
A brief LOL, wtf moment. ;D
Anyway, I'm tempted to invest in my first brick, as I really like the design. I just hate that this may not fund.
-
I'm fond of it myself, but I've been buying a lot of decks lately. I can't get them all, and I certainly can't get them all by the brick. I think it's a terrible shame that this project has plateaued for so long. This is a breakthrough project in many ways. If he had released the Silver Arrows Slate edition without the Pearl Edition, this would have had a smaller goal and a greater chance to succeed. Better yet, run a Kickstarter for the Pearl deck and simply take pre-orders for the other, assuming of course the funds will be enough for him to make the print run.
We NEED cheaper decks, and the one project actually offering them is well on its way to tanking.
-
I think it would help having a deck that appealed to a larger mass market. Your Average Joe isn't going to get excited over a deck like this. Something like his Federal 52 series would've sold like hotcakes. I think using the right approach and marketing you can sell decks for around $6 or $7.
-
I think it would help having a deck that appealed to a larger mass market. Your Average Joe isn't going to get excited over a deck like this. Something like his Federal 52 series would've sold like hotcakes. I think using the right approach and marketing you can sell decks for around $6 or $7.
Actually, I think the design was just fine, really. The marketing got all caught up in the complaints about how much you have to spend to get the limited edition pearl decks. The deck had - and still has, though not in this project - the potential to be a solid success.
-
I didn't say anything is wrong with the design. I was just saying Kickstarter users who aren't card collectors wouldn't be drawn towards it for any specific reasons. For example, the Wizard of Oz cards on now has appeal to people who like the Wizard of Oz and the Vampire cards appeal to people who like vampire stories. My cards are always history based so they tend to appeal to history buffs. Of course, card collectors still support the project but if you project appeals outside the card community then you increase your chances to bring in new people.
But I agree this could be a very sucessful project. The only thing that needs to be re-tooled would be the goal amount and how the pledge tiers are set up.
-
I didn't say anything is wrong with the design. I was just saying Kickstarter users who aren't card collectors wouldn't be drawn towards it for any specific reasons. For example, the Wizard of Oz cards on now has appeal to people who like the Wizard of Oz and the Vampire cards appeal to people who like vampire stories. My cards are always history based so they tend to appeal to history buffs. Of course, card collectors still support the project but if you project appeals outside the card community then you increase your chances to bring in new people.
But I agree this could be a very sucessful project. The only thing that needs to be re-tooled would be the goal amount and how the pledge tiers are set up.
I have to agree with what Robert is saying here. This deck, though design is good, does not have any other qualities that will draw non-card collectors to come in and pledge. Unlike his previous decks for Feds and Sherlock Holmes, where they could attract an additional group of people, Silver Arrow seems to target mainly card collectors.
I also think this deck have the qualities to be successful. The question now is, will Jackson continue at this low cost high production project, or launch a more limited and expensive project? I simply feel the low cost one is still viable, but just needs something more to attract more pledges. The Pearl Edition could be a stretch goal. Tiers for uncut sheets can be released to include 1 free deck as well (where the cost is already factored in). Limited signed decks at a higher pledge tier could also be possible. While uncuts and signed decks are not what i would look for, i believe there are many collectors out there who dig into this kind of stuff. This are some ways to get more people buying while not really increasing your cost per deck.
-
I think the decks look great. I think the mistake was on the pricing. There's lots of research about pricing correctly, and funneling people upward. The pricing for this project was pretty flat and didn't reward people who wanted multiple decks. The price was great for the brick. My suggestion for Jackson when he decides to relaunch the Silver Arrows (assuming it doesn't spike all of a sudden and get funded) is:
$12 1 deck
$19 2 decks
$40 6 decks
$72 1 brick (1 pearl deck)
$130 2 bricks (2 pearl decks)
$9 add-ons (Slate)
$16 add-ons (Pearl)
In most projects with multiple decks, a big chunk of the backers are "1 deck of each/everything" type of people. Getting $30 from a big chunk of backers for a 2 deck project would pretty good, and the price incentive at the brick end would satisfy many of the people who want to take advantage of that.
-
$12 1 deck
$9 add-ons (Slate)
$16 add-ons (Pearl)
This completely defeats what Jackson is trying to do with this project.
-
I didn't say anything is wrong with the design. I was just saying Kickstarter users who aren't card collectors wouldn't be drawn towards it for any specific reasons. For example, the Wizard of Oz cards on now has appeal to people who like the Wizard of Oz and the Vampire cards appeal to people who like vampire stories. My cards are always history based so they tend to appeal to history buffs. Of course, card collectors still support the project but if you project appeals outside the card community then you increase your chances to bring in new people.
But I agree this could be a very sucessful project. The only thing that needs to be re-tooled would be the goal amount and how the pledge tiers are set up.
I have to agree with what Robert is saying here. This deck, though design is good, does not have any other qualities that will draw non-card collectors to come in and pledge. Unlike his previous decks for Feds and Sherlock Holmes, where they could attract an additional group of people, Silver Arrow seems to target mainly card collectors.
I also think this deck have the qualities to be successful. The question now is, will Jackson continue at this low cost high production project, or launch a more limited and expensive project? I simply feel the low cost one is still viable, but just needs something more to attract more pledges. The Pearl Edition could be a stretch goal. Tiers for uncut sheets can be released to include 1 free deck as well (where the cost is already factored in). Limited signed decks at a higher pledge tier could also be possible. While uncuts and signed decks are not what i would look for, i believe there are many collectors out there who dig into this kind of stuff. This are some ways to get more people buying while not really increasing your cost per deck.
In essence, I believe Robert's saying the deck lacks a theme or a "hook" to draw in people who aren't collectors. But does a deck really NEED a hook? The art itself can be enough for some - they look exotic yet familiar at the same time, and some people would use Silver Arrows for a late-night poker game or whatever other games you want to play with it. (I left out collectors, magicians and cardists intentionally, since we're talking about attracting a demographic that doesn't fit any of those categories.) Using the "sniff test" I've started using a lot lately, "Would my poker buddies play with this deck?," I have to say that there's really no reason why they wouldn't - it's attractive and has a general design that conforms to International Standard.
I think I can sum up what's been taking place. Jackson has an idea for making a cheap, high-quality, custom deck. The idea gets designed out and he picks a volume level that would allow him to undercut the cost of anything he's ever done aside from his decks he made for USPC. Now, with such a large volume, Jackson decides he needs to hedge his bet a little - he doesn't want to end up with several thousand unsold decks piled up in his office, living room, etc. He creates a second deck, this one as a short-run deck, only ten percent the size of the initial printing. He only offers the deck to people buying by the brick, thinking that it's like a thank-you gift to all those who invest in the project at that level. But this stirs up the collectors - "Why can't I just buy that deck, even at a premium price? I don't need a brick of the original design..." While there are collectors who don't bat an eyelash at buying a brick, particular if it's $6 a pack, but many people do have a hard time with that, especially in a less-than-robust economy, and collectors being collectors, they want that deck but don't want that whole brick. So much time is spent by collectors talking about that brick deal that all else gets overlooked. As far as they typical consumer, all they know is that unless they're inveterate poker players, they rarely buy twelve decks of anything, and if they do, it's cards they'll use at poker; plain-ol' Bikes and Bees, or maybe they'll skip the paper and just use plastic. If they do use paper, they'll use two decks of the same design but different colors, and they're not going to by 10 or 11 of one deck and end up with 1 or 2 of the other - they want to buy evenly. (But if they discover the faces don't match, they'll pass and get something matching instead.)
There's a number of ways this could have been dealt with better, as I see it. One good one would have been to make the white deck available - for purchase - at a lower deck amount. For example, if you order a minimum of three decks, you can buy one of the rare deck while supplies last, with an extra deck available to you for sale for every additional three unlimited decks you buy. You can buy them, ignore them, whatever you wish, but it lowers the bar a bit more so "mere mortals" have a shot at buying one as well. Make it the SAME PRICE as the original version - I know it doesn't cost $6 to make it, so you can likely sell it and add it to the larger order without losing any money (if fact, you could make maybe a buck or less on each). Regardless, it serves its purpose - it pushes sales of the large print-run deck to make that a viable reality. Think about it - Ellusionist and Theory11 have sold rare decks before, but always at a price that's within their general prices range, the only big exception I can think of being the Black Club decks.
Another could have been to simply split the print run, making about 10,000 of each instead of 20,000 of one and 2,000 of the other. If the faces were matched, he might even be able to pry a discount from the printer for not needing to swap out the face plates for the second print run - I've seen it happen before, and when you're buying in bigger amounts, most printers tend to treat you more nicely, just like you'd see the difference between the treatment of a big tipper and a penny pincher at a typical restaurant.
I'm sure there's other ways to make it work better than this project has.
$12 1 deck
$9 add-ons (Slate)
$16 add-ons (Pearl)
This completely defeats what Jackson is trying to do with this project.
Troy, what were you thinking? The object of the game here was to create a custom deck design that doesn't have to sell at typical custom-deck prices - perhaps something closer to what you'd pay for unlimited decks from producers like E, T11, TBC, etc. What you're proposing is just another costly deck with pricing that favors the well-heeled - Jackson's decks are all being sold at a flat rate regardless of amount purchased, making it fair for everyone (except perhaps himself).
-
A great read but this thread is pretty difficult to follow about the decks themselves. ???
Does anyone know what finish will be on the two decks?
-
Listed as:
-
Thanks Sprouts right in front of my face. It's been a rough month lol.
-
Jackson pulled the plug.
Looks like he is going back to the drawing board and will re-release this deck in a different form.
My hope is that he will try another large print, low cost project without offering any 'special thank you' decks to the high backers. I feel like this project may have had a stronger chance without the Pearl, as a single deck attempt. The Pearl became the focus and overshadowed the point of the project, which I really think people would have absolutely gotten behind if they weren't so dialated by the Pearl.
Making small limited runs of premium decks may have been the outcry, but I worry that Jackson will see that as people not wanting a large print low cost deck, which I really don't feel is the case.
-
If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby. Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too. I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily. And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss? It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.
-
If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby. Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too. I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily. And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss? It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.
So you are saying we should start designing decks that looks common and be used in casino's, magicians, everywhere?
I don't think Kickstarter is the right platform to do that. But maybe funded personally and then tried to hit the market would do the trick. It seems like most of the people on Kickstarter are looking for "creative" "Unique" designs that only they can get when pledging.
-
If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby. Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too. I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily. And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss? It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.
So you are saying we should start designing decks that looks common and be used in casino's, magicians, everywhere?
I don't think Kickstarter is the right platform to do that. But maybe funded personally and then tried to hit the market would do the trick. It seems like most of the people on Kickstarter are looking for "creative" "Unique" designs that only they can get when pledging.
Well, "stupid-common" doesn't necessarily have to add up to boring. There's room for creativity and uniqueness. At one time the New Fan Back was a very common Bicycle card back and it's one of my favorites.
-
So you are saying we should start designing decks that looks common and be used in casino's, magicians, everywhere?
I don't think Kickstarter is the right platform to do that. But maybe funded personally and then tried to hit the market would do the trick. It seems like most of the people on Kickstarter are looking for "creative" "Unique" designs that only they can get when pledging.
I think this has a lot to do with the reasoning for this lack of funding. The design is amazing, like all of Jackson's work, but most of JRs fan base are those that only want LEs. With the new influx of young collectors, I think most are looking to make a quick buck on reselling. Jackson's work definitely sells and if you missed out on LEs during his campaign, you can usually pick them up in the aftermarket for a heavy price. The idea of Jackson having a "staple" deck is great but I don't think we'll be seeing another attempt at that anytime soon. I'll bet he adds a lot of bells and whistles to the tuck and back and print a smaller run of 1000-2500. This will cause the prices to then go from $6 a deck for slate to $12-18 and $20-30 for a pearl.
-
So you are saying we should start designing decks that looks common and be used in casino's, magicians, everywhere?
I don't think Kickstarter is the right platform to do that. But maybe funded personally and then tried to hit the market would do the trick. It seems like most of the people on Kickstarter are looking for "creative" "Unique" designs that only they can get when pledging.
I think this has a lot to do with the reasoning for this lack of funding. The design is amazing, like all of Jackson's work, but most of JRs fan base are those that only want LEs. With the new influx of young collectors, I think most are looking to make a quick buck on reselling. Jackson's work definitely sells and if you missed out on LEs during his campaign, you can usually pick them up in the aftermarket for a heavy price. The idea of Jackson having a "staple" deck is great but I don't think we'll be seeing another attempt at that anytime soon. I'll bet he adds a lot of bells and whistles to the tuck and back and print a smaller run of 1000-2500. This will cause the prices to then go from $6 a deck for slate to $12-18 and $20-30 for a pearl.
This is 180 degrees away from what he was trying to accomplish with this deck. Read the earlier posts about this deck. Another good topic for some background would be this one (http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=7224.0).
-
I think it may be the nature of kickstarter that the LE decks are what people tend to respond to most. It's difficult to explain to someone that most all decks by their very nature are in fact limited. 2,500 decks doesn't seem like a limited run when another project has an LE of 1,000 decks, or as we've seen recently from some 500 decks. I really like this deck and I prefer the slate to the pearl myself. The one thing that made me want Pearls was the red indices, for which I was going to up my pledge by another brick or two.
In my opinion kickstarter is a great way to fund smaller print runs but it's very difficult to fund a high print run, again because of the nature of kickstarter. It's chalk a bock full of low print run decks, be them "never to be printed again" or "extremely rare limited edition" what have you. For Jackson to get funding for a large print run of any particular deck, I think it'll take several kickstarters loaded with overpriced LE's to build capital over time to fund a higher print run of something else in large part by himself. I'm quite happy to pledge for decks I like by the brick and quite often multiple bricks at that. That's just me though. Most people want 2 - 4 decks, LE, not LE, whatever doesn't matter 2 - 4 seems to be where the majority of pledges happen. Instead of "Woot! I get a brick for cheap!" it's "Why do I have to buy a brick, even if it is much less expensive than other bricks?"
Check out Draconian for example. It's funding campaign is about to end. It currently has the least expensive high quality mixed bricks with amazing tucks and great decks. 35 backers out of 466 as I type this are in for bricks. Meanwhile 390 are in for 4 or less decks. These numbers aren't unique to this campaign either, VeneXiana Dark has 31 backers that are in for bricks, out of 483. 413 of those backers are in for 4 or less decks. Again, same with Metal Rider Back only 17 backers out of 811 are in for bricks. 754 are in for four or less. These are only currently active campaigns, looking back the trend continues.
I liked these decks, I wanted them to succeed. There is definitely cause to rework the campaign and fire it up again later though. Have to cater to the customer and on kickstarter, the customer seems to want LE's and 4 or less decks. Never mind what's said on forums. We're just a drop in the bucket, that bucket gets filled by people who don't post much if at all. When we see these decks again, they will succeed. This campaign was a great experiment, from a glance at the comments a couple days ago quite a lively one too haha.
-
If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby. Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too. I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily. And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss? It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.
I think you should Don, that would be awesome. You know enough people in the industry to make it happen.......why not?
-
If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby. Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too. I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily. And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss? It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.
I think you should Don, that would be awesome. You know enough people in the industry to make it happen.......why not?
You'll need to design something that everyone wants. :o
-
If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby. Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too. I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily. And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss? It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.
Im going on 26 months doing nothing but that. How bout in another 24 months you buy me a steak dinner when I'm still doing it. :) Pretty good hobby.
-
If all a company ever offers is limited, short-run decks, they'll never make the money to turn it into an ongoing business - it'll remain a sideline or a hobby. Were I making decks, I'd WANT to make a stupid-common deck that everyone wants and uses - and the gaffed versions, too. I might not beat the sales of Bicycle Standards anytime ever, but perhaps I'd become the deck of choice for magicians and card sharps - I could live with that, easily. And if I was just lucky enough, it could become a full-time concern - who doesn't like the idea of being your own boss? It's been done before so it's far from impossible - one needs the right amount of success and motivation.
Im going on 26 months doing nothing but that. How bout in another 24 months you buy me a steak dinner when I'm still doing it. :) Pretty good hobby.
How about I buy you a drink at the next 52+J con instead? :))