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Playing Card Chat ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦ => Playing Card Plethora => Topic started by: badpete69 on June 03, 2014, 01:00:32 PM
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1025300926/shannon-youngs-derby-deck (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1025300926/shannon-youngs-derby-deck)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/666682/photo-main.jpg?1401484886)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/081/758/f4acd0d4a747047fe9fe14c2e9bbe4ef_large.jpg?1401564780)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/081/759/8ee753ec258de53776a8d9aa7504eb9c_large.jpg?1401564804)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/078/602/24d8a37f2e957137c46c147b45f2e1bf_large.jpg?1401485854)
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The concept is great and has a lot of potential, but there's a few tweaks it needs to be a fully-functional deck. I contacted the creator and asked her to stop by.
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Thanks Don!
I'm Steve, the designer/art director of Derby Deck, and Shannon is in charge of the illustrations. I really appreciate your offer to educate us on the finer points of card design. I'm a complete newbie to this world, but a print designer by profession.
One issue we've already grappled with is the Queen of Diamonds having a full-bleed colored background, and it was a tough call. We like that card so much aesthetically that we couldn't bear to bring in the background's margin and lose the amazing detail in the watercolor wash that Shannon painted. My ears are definitely open to any changes you think we might need.
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You are very talented, I really would like to see more of the deck, and more of your work.
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Thanks Science, here's a couple of links:
Shannon's Tattoos & Illustrations: http://www.foreveryoungtattoo.com/ (http://www.foreveryoungtattoo.com/)
My Design Portfolio: http://www.leacockdesign.com (http://www.leacockdesign.com)
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Thanks Don!
I'm Steve, the designer/art director of Derby Deck, and Shannon is in charge of the illustrations. I really appreciate your offer to educate us on the finer points of card design. I'm a complete newbie to this world, but a print designer by profession.
One issue we've already grappled with is the Queen of Diamonds having a full-bleed colored background, and it was a tough call. We like that card so much aesthetically that we couldn't bear to bring in the background's margin and lose the amazing detail in the watercolor wash that Shannon painted. My ears are definitely open to any changes you think we might need.
That background into the bleed is one of the issues that make the deck less practical. When cards are printed like that, you can actually spot them by looking at the edge of the deck - a real no-no for functionality. I would suggest a slight size reduction combined with a "soft border" - a gradual fade as the image nears the edge of the card so it's white before you reach the die line. I think you'd be able to preserve either 100% of the art or damn close to it. The reduction need not be large - you could shave a single percentage point or perhaps two and be far enough from the edge. One thing to be cautious of, especially with USPC, is that they focus on trying to get good registration on the card backs, since an off-center back is not desirable to anyone. This means they focus a little less on the faces, which in turn means you really need to "color within the lines" - make the border whatever their minimum spec happens to be. Thin-bordered backs are still pretty popular, but it drives their printers insane with how little margin for error some artists give them.
Speaking of backs... Yours has a very obvious one-way design. This in itself is not a bad thing, per se - but because of the fact that a deck can be stacked in a way to allow for identifying certain cards based on orientation with such as design, poker players will for the most part stay away from them. Even a hint of being a cheat is anathema to them. I would suggest making a "good girl/bad girl" deck pair as a stretch goal - make one back with the heart-bearing "good girl" and the lighter of the two background colors used, then make the other back with the knuckleduster-wielding "bad girl" in war paint and the darker background color. Poker players love a poker set - two matched decks in different, easily-identified colors.
From a marketing standpoint, it's not a good idea to use the Ace of Spades art as your tuckbox face art - it's great but it's also really not representative of the art in the rest of the deck. Take a joker or a lovely court card image with a roller girl on it, something that's both attractive and looks more like the other cards (or at least like the court cards, if you don't go with unique art on all the cards) and I think it will make a difference in sales, especially in the retail market after the Kickstarter project is completed.
As soon as is possible, I highly recommend getting more of your deck's artwork on the KS page - I would even suggest shooting a brief video explaining the theme and perhaps include real roller girls juxtaposed with their images on the cards (I'm assuming that many if not all of the cards are modeled on real players). A good video is only about 60 to 90 seconds long and doesn't have to be a special effects extravaganza - it would consist largely of your and Shannon's thoughts on the deck, why you made it, why I should buy it, what is your campaign offering as rewards, etc. A good video can make the difference between having or missing some additional sales.
But failing that, get more still images out there. People love to see what they're backing, and so far you've only shown the box, the card back and five faces. In an art-heavy deck, that's not enough. Show off images of the rewards - signed decks, postcards, uncut sheets (ESPECIALLY uncut sheets, as there's a whole separate market that goes for uncut sheets, particularly when they're chock full of great art). Uncut sheets are also a great way of showing off at least a hint of what the uncut sheet will look like. For decks with customized courts/Aces and standard or near-standard faces, I've even seen an artist or two rearrange the card order on the uncut so as to place all the more artistic cards in the center, making it more attractive for wall hanging. They'll also organize the remaining cards to create either a quarter-page or half-page scheme of alternating red and black cards. For example, you could have the four aces dead center, ordered clockwise from top left as spades-hearts-clubs-diamonds, surround them with the matching court cards of that suit, then arrange the remaining cards of that suit in the same quadrant that the ace and courts appear in, so the entire sheet has the same order scheme as the aces in the center.
Oh, and don't forget the tuck boxes. There's a subset of collectors who'll buy decks not to be opened but to be ogled in a display case, sealed and pristine - they go for very attractive boxes, especially if they have appropriately-placed elements such as metallic foil or embossing, or if they use a fancy vellum paper or heavy card stock rather than the ordinary single-ply stock used on tucks. DISPLAY THE BOX, in its entirety and not just a image of the front obscured by a card. Honestly, everyone loves a gorgeous box. There's also options for printing the inside of the box, placing a foil lining in the box, etc. Of course, these features would all cost extra, so you'd be using them as stretch goals, but an attractive box never hurt the sales of practically any product that fits in a box!
OK, my fingers are getting tired! That's my two cents worth...I wish you much success with your project.
BTW: your postcard stamps that you mentioned in the rewards? They no longer exist, as a one-ounce-or-less letter is now the same price as a postcard and has been for a few years already. People just use the "forever" stamps or an equal value of stamps adding up to the current price. :))
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Thanks Don, lots to think about.
• I'm going to try some options with that card edge and see what I can come up with. I tend to prefer nice big margins in general, that one was a bit of a quandary when I got the art.
• Your idea for a pair of decks is very interesting. I'm going to bring that up as a possible stretch goal, though my guess is that it'll be too expensive. I also kinda hate to lose the one-way back, it's actually one of my favorite parts of the design, and really makes a statement about what the athletes are like... sweethearts who can knock you flat on your back.
• I've been toying with adding different cards to the tuck box. If nothing else, one of the upcoming courts might do the trick, possibly something with some actual derby action.
• I really love the idea of having the inspiration behind the cards represented in the video. With the project gaining funding as fast as it is, I think we could pull that off. Time to see if I can really use that copy of AfterEffects. We'll also be posting a lot of the in-process art for the remainder of the cards, and as soon as new cards are finished they'll go up in an update.
• I mocked up the tuck box without the obscuring card and will be adding it to the page shortly. I would love to do another deck, design it myself, and get some of those amazing foil or embossing effects on a nice heavy stock. The more I look at specialty decks, the more I realize how much talent is going into some of these things. The Jackson Robinson Sherlock Holmes deck... just incredible the amount of talent and patience it took to put that project together.
• I just checked up on postage rates, looks like postcards under 4x6 are 34¢ and letters under 1 ounce are 49¢.
http://postcalc.usps.gov/postcards.aspx (http://postcalc.usps.gov/postcards.aspx)
Thanks a million for taking the time to advise us! I'll try to apply what I can to our project, and if I ever design another deck, I'll be much better prepared. Looks like we just hit 20% funding, things are looking up.
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Thanks Don, lots to think about.
• I'm going to try some options with that card edge and see what I can come up with. I tend to prefer nice big margins in general, that one was a bit of a quandary when I got the art.
• Your idea for a pair of decks is very interesting. I'm going to bring that up as a possible stretch goal, though my guess is that it'll be too expensive. I also kinda hate to lose the one-way back, it's actually one of my favorite parts of the design, and really makes a statement about what the athletes are like... sweethearts who can knock you flat on your back.
• I've been toying with adding different cards to the tuck box. If nothing else, one of the upcoming courts might do the trick, possibly something with some actual derby action.
• I really love the idea of having the inspiration behind the cards represented in the video. With the project gaining funding as fast as it is, I think we could pull that off. Time to see if I can really use that copy of AfterEffects. We'll also be posting a lot of the in-process art for the remainder of the cards, and as soon as new cards are finished they'll go up in an update.
• I mocked up the tuck box without the obscuring card and will be adding it to the page shortly. I would love to do another deck, design it myself, and get some of those amazing foil or embossing effects on a nice heavy stock. The more I look at specialty decks, the more I realize how much talent is going into some of these things. The Jackson Robinson Sherlock Holmes deck... just incredible the amount of talent and patience it took to put that project together.
• I just checked up on postage rates, looks like postcards under 4x6 are 34¢ and letters under 1 ounce are 49¢.
http://postcalc.usps.gov/postcards.aspx (http://postcalc.usps.gov/postcards.aspx)
Thanks a million for taking the time to advise us! I'll try to apply what I can to our project, and if I ever design another deck, I'll be much better prepared. Looks like we just hit 20% funding, things are looking up.
Margins are good. Thin margins are very attractive, though - you should try it.
One-way backs are in no way a deal-breaker. I simply pointed out that collectors and poker players generally prefer two-way back designs. Roller derby fans would probably neither realize nor care. Collectors are merely a fraction of a fraction of the entire market as a whole, but they do spend far more than the average deck purchaser. However, any deck that's been a big success has done so by extending their reach beyond just the card collecting community.
If printing with USPC isn't critical, you could also try using Expert Playing Card Company. Get better cards for a much lower price. Ask William Kalush at wkalush@expertplayingcard.com for more info and pricing. His decks are among the best in the collectors' market, if not the best. Then perhaps you could afford those bells and whistles you want for this deck instead of a future project!
I see why I was confused about the postcard costs - notice that a large postcard is exactly the same price as a one-ounce letter. That must have been what I noticed.
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Thanks Don, lots to think about.
• I'm going to try some options with that card edge and see what I can come up with. I tend to prefer nice big margins in general, that one was a bit of a quandary when I got the art.
• Your idea for a pair of decks is very interesting. I'm going to bring that up as a possible stretch goal, though my guess is that it'll be too expensive. I also kinda hate to lose the one-way back, it's actually one of my favorite parts of the design, and really makes a statement about what the athletes are like... sweethearts who can knock you flat on your back.
• I've been toying with adding different cards to the tuck box. If nothing else, one of the upcoming courts might do the trick, possibly something with some actual derby action.
• I really love the idea of having the inspiration behind the cards represented in the video. With the project gaining funding as fast as it is, I think we could pull that off. Time to see if I can really use that copy of AfterEffects. We'll also be posting a lot of the in-process art for the remainder of the cards, and as soon as new cards are finished they'll go up in an update.
• I mocked up the tuck box without the obscuring card and will be adding it to the page shortly. I would love to do another deck, design it myself, and get some of those amazing foil or embossing effects on a nice heavy stock. The more I look at specialty decks, the more I realize how much talent is going into some of these things. The Jackson Robinson Sherlock Holmes deck... just incredible the amount of talent and patience it took to put that project together.
• I just checked up on postage rates, looks like postcards under 4x6 are 34¢ and letters under 1 ounce are 49¢.
http://postcalc.usps.gov/postcards.aspx (http://postcalc.usps.gov/postcards.aspx)
Thanks a million for taking the time to advise us! I'll try to apply what I can to our project, and if I ever design another deck, I'll be much better prepared. Looks like we just hit 20% funding, things are looking up.
Margins are good. Thin margins are very attractive, though - you should try it.
One-way backs are in no way a deal-breaker. I simply pointed out that collectors and poker players generally prefer two-way back designs. Roller derby fans would probably neither realize nor care. Collectors are merely a fraction of a fraction of the entire market as a whole, but they do spend far more than the average deck purchaser. However, any deck that's been a big success has done so by extending their reach beyond just the card collecting community.
If printing with USPC isn't critical, you could also try using Expert Playing Card Company. Get better cards for a much lower price. Ask William Kalush at wkalush@expertplayingcard.com for more info and pricing. His decks are among the best in the collectors' market, if not the best. Then perhaps you could afford those bells and whistles you want for this deck instead of a future project!
I see why I was confused about the postcard costs - notice that a large postcard is exactly the same price as a one-ounce letter. That must have been what I noticed.
I like this deck.
I hope that statement helps. If not, i will add that i also pledged for them. ;)
Just a few things i thought i would say, like what was mentioned, the one way backs are by no means a major game changer. Of course, you would like to get to as wide a market as possible, but as a collector, i don't really care as long as the art is great.
Being a collector who displays tuck boxes in display cases and doesn't open decks unless I have spares, I would love to see the tuckbox as a whole, simply because i have seen some tucks with really great fronts but horrible back designs. It is a real pity if such things happen.
Actually, i seldom watch videos because i am lazy like that. If images of your deck doesn't capture me, i don't wanna hear bull about why you think i should buy your deck. So, instead, add more images to your KS page. It lets people know what they are getting, and if your art is good enough, you won't have any worries about showing too much. The ideas about uncut sheet from Don are also good, and if possible, could post up images especially if you arranged them in a special way.
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Hey guys, back again with some new stuff from the deck.
I went ahead and created a (very rough) mockup of the Queen of Diamonds with the border cut the same way as the rest of the courts, and I think I'm going to push for us to implement this change in the final printed deck. I find it more attractive than I expected to, and solving that problem with functionality just feels like the right move.
I've attached some mockups of the number cards, curious if y'all have any comments/critiques.
I'm also working on a version of the cards with thin borders. After you mentioned it, Don, I looked at some of my friend's card decks (he's a poker fanatic), and the versions with thin borders look very clean and classy. I think my preference for wide margins comes from a fundamental mistrust of printers and their attention to detail.
Thanks again!
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I enjoy the pip layout and think the bordered version works well. I am a backer, and have been spreading the link to folks in the derby community. I really hope this funds and is made! I know that Don mentioned EPCC earlier, have you given any thought to that? I mention it because they seem to have more affordable rates. I love USPCC as well, so I am happy either way.
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Thanks Shadowkat,
We've looked into EPCC, and they're an attractive option for plan B (if the kickstarter doesn't get funded this time around). We've been marketing as a USPCC deck the entire time, so It'd be a bit of a bummer to have to tell our existing backers that we're changing printers. We just got a demo deck from EPCC today and the quality is faaantastic.
Thanks for sharing, we definitely appreciate it. I just want to hold a deck of these cards in my hand!
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I was tempted to pledge, but then saw the bottom reward:
Ad Spaaaaaaace - Have your ad printed on 1 side of one card and included in all decks from this Kickstarter campaign (minimum 2,500 decks). We'll also send you 10 decks to show off your ad. You'll need to provide the ad artwork and ad design and content subject to our approval. Please contact us with your ad information prior to the close of the Kickstarter campaign for approval.
Why would I pay $10 for a deck with ads?
/bama
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Bama,
I can see your perspective. You're paying a premium for something that, without the extra art, would cost a couple of bucks, and for that 500% markup, you expect something special, and something unsullied with ads. From the perspective of a purist, this makes sense to me. I get annoyed when I pay for a BluRay and I have to watch a bunch of ads for other movies before I get to the content I paid for... I can relate.
Our reasoning for adding the option is to try to get to our goal faster. We're taking our first trip into this world, and during the planning phase we tried to find every possible way to accelerate the funding process. It may have been a bad call, though the way things are going now, I'm not sure we're going to sell any of the ad space anyway. I'm personally hoping we get funded without selling any of them. If that's the case, we may design some special cards, like a double-back.
I personally wouldn't make a yes or no decision on a deck based on the presence of ad cards. I figure, if I'm collecting and keep it sealed in a display case, the ads are invisible. If i'm going to open the deck and use the cards, I'll discard the ads and that's pretty much the end of it. That's just me, though, and I am definitely NOT a collector. Not yet anyway.
I'm actually curious what kinds of extra cards you'd recommend for the two spares that come in a standard deck (assuming we don't get funded) ... any thoughts?
Thanks for the input!
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I was tempted to pledge, but then saw the bottom reward:
Ad Spaaaaaaace - Have your ad printed on 1 side of one card and included in all decks from this Kickstarter campaign (minimum 2,500 decks). We'll also send you 10 decks to show off your ad. You'll need to provide the ad artwork and ad design and content subject to our approval. Please contact us with your ad information prior to the close of the Kickstarter campaign for approval.
You could solve the problem by pledging for that tier? than it would be YOUR AD!!! Isnt that cooler? :P
I'm actually curious what kinds of extra cards you'd recommend for the two spares that come in a standard deck (assuming we don't get funded) ... any thoughts?
Jokers. Extra Jokers. Double Backers. Gaff Cards. The spares are open to your creativity i feel, there is no standard or "must haves" in the spares.
I think generally Gaffs or Diptych are more of a favourite, but if you can come out with something more creative, then by all means!!!
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Hey guys, back again with some new stuff from the deck.
I went ahead and created a (very rough) mockup of the Queen of Diamonds with the border cut the same way as the rest of the courts, and I think I'm going to push for us to implement this change in the final printed deck. I find it more attractive than I expected to, and solving that problem with functionality just feels like the right move.
I've attached some mockups of the number cards, curious if y'all have any comments/critiques.
I'm also working on a version of the cards with thin borders. After you mentioned it, Don, I looked at some of my friend's card decks (he's a poker fanatic), and the versions with thin borders look very clean and classy. I think my preference for wide margins comes from a fundamental mistrust of printers and their attention to detail.
Thanks again!
The border looks good. And you're right to distrust printers! :))
I would, however, suggest one of two things, both stemming from one potential issue. The indices on the spot cards appear to be matched in placement to those of the courts - but they're a bit too far from the edge. Indices are one thing that you want right there at the very edge for easier reading when the cards are tightly fanned to prevent others at the table from seeing them.
One option would be to enlarge the court art a bit and narrow the margin a bit. It would look nice artistically and then you'd follow suit on the spot cards by doing the same in terms of index placement.
The other option, comparable to what you see on off-the-shelf, standard decks like Bee and Bicycle, is to put the index outside of the court art and close to the edge, and again, moving the indices on the spot cards to match the placement. Considering the boldness of the typeface chosen, you could even reduce the size just a skosh. I don't think I'd want you to lose the bold in favor of something thinner - that typeface looks great as is and I can't imagine that removing the bold would improve it.
Also, strive for uniformity in terms of index size, especially with things like the "10" card's index width. It's interesting to notice with standard decks, but every card has an index that's the same height and width as on all the other cards, regardless of what the value and suit are. They also generally use suit symbols that are half as tall as the value letter or numeral(s). Companies like USPC have been making decks for so long it's practically a science at this point - they're 129 years old as of this year.
But one thing I want to tell you - feel free to tell me to stuff it with any or all of these ideas. They're not set in stone, and your deck is much more fun and artistic than most so go ahead and bend or break a few rules if it adds to the deck's charm.
I was tempted to pledge, but then saw the bottom reward:
Ad Spaaaaaaace - Have your ad printed on 1 side of one card and included in all decks from this Kickstarter campaign (minimum 2,500 decks). We'll also send you 10 decks to show off your ad. You'll need to provide the ad artwork and ad design and content subject to our approval. Please contact us with your ad information prior to the close of the Kickstarter campaign for approval.
Why would I pay $10 for a deck with ads?
/bama
You already do, you knucklehead! :)) (I mean that affectionately - your head isn't made of knuckles!) How many times have you opened a pack of cards and found one of the extras with the company's name on it? Congratulations, you discovered an ad card!
I'm actually curious what kinds of extra cards you'd recommend for the two spares that come in a standard deck (assuming we don't get funded) ... any thoughts?
Thanks for the input!
Ad cards are FINE. If this was a deck made to appeal to magicians, I'd recommend some gaff (trick) cards, but it's not. Suggestions from me would be to make a third joker - something identical to the other joker. Some games call for identical jokers, some games call for one joker to be of a higher "rank" than the other, so two jokers that match and one joker that doesn't would be a fine combination.
Another suggestion: take that ad card and make the back of it a solid color, like a cut card used in poker. The cut card is used to conceal the bottom card of the pack while the dealer is dealing, preventing any player from taking advantage of that knowledge. It's usually a piece of plastic identical in size and shape to a poker card, but your ad card could do the job just fine.
The one thing I would say in Bama's defense would be that while ad cards are common, the product advertised is usually some product related to cards and is produced by the same company that made the deck - for example, a USPC deck with an ad card for a book of poker rules or a set of poker chips with the company name on it. In your case, an ad for anything related to roller derby would be an excellent fit - know of a website that sells memorabilia of the sport?
Last idea - it's also a common feature of some decks to have one card used as a list of poker hand ranks. You could take it a step further by making the hand images out of the cards from your deck. For example, for the rank of "full house" you could display three tens and two queens, displaying on the last card of the spread the queen artwork from one of your deck's queens. I think that would be a cool and classy addition.
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As far as extra cards go, I'd love to have an simple explanation of the rules to give to friends. I am curious if there will be a representation of the refs in the deck. They are a big part of Derby!
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As far as extra cards go, I'd love to have an simple explanation of the rules to give to friends. I am curious if there will be a representation of the refs in the deck. They are a big part of Derby!
You mean the rules of roller derby, right? That is an excellent idea!
Include a directory website with a listing of known roller derby leagues/venues. (If one doesn't exist - make one!)
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As far as extra cards go, I'd love to have an simple explanation of the rules to give to friends. I am curious if there will be a representation of the refs in the deck. They are a big part of Derby!
You mean the rules of roller derby, right? That is an excellent idea!
Include a directory website with a listing of known roller derby leagues/venues. (If one doesn't exist - make one!)
The rules of roller derby was exactly what I was thinking! I like the idea of the directory as well. 8)
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I have to be careful of a deck that is not even finished.
"and we need your help to finish the set" from the KS page, if the designs are not completed how can backers be sure they will receive a deck at all? Not to mention that this is someone who "who owns and operates" their own tattoo shop, do they even have time?
So far "This project is a labor of love that has been several years in the making" but now the remainder of the deck will be designed, finished, printed and distributed by the end of the year?
I can't back this...
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I have to be careful of a deck that is not even finished.
"and we need your help to finish the set" from the KS page, if the designs are not completed how can backers be sure they will receive a deck at all? Not to mention that this is someone who "who owns and operates" their own tattoo shop, do they even have time?
So far "This project is a labor of love that has been several years in the making" but now the remainder of the deck will be designed, finished, printed and distributed by the end of the year?
I can't back this...
I recall noticing that as well. It doesn't necessarily mean that the deck won't be delivered, but it does mean there's a good chance it will deliver late. It's what happened to Lance Miller with his Artist's Edition Bicycle Actuators on KS. He was late by months because he hadn't completed at least most of the art before launching the project.
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I have to be careful of a deck that is not even finished.
"and we need your help to finish the set" from the KS page, if the designs are not completed how can backers be sure they will receive a deck at all? Not to mention that this is someone who "who owns and operates" their own tattoo shop, do they even have time?
So far "This project is a labor of love that has been several years in the making" but now the remainder of the deck will be designed, finished, printed and distributed by the end of the year?
I can't back this...
I recall noticing that as well. It doesn't necessarily mean that the deck won't be delivered, but it does mean there's a good chance it will deliver late. It's what happened to Lance Miller with his Artist's Edition Bicycle Actuators on KS. He was late by months because he hadn't completed at least most of the art before launching the project.
To be honest I had just finished reading the update for 'The Type Deck' on KS and while I think she is off to an amazing start and is a genuine person, it just made me wonder.
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I have to be careful of a deck that is not even finished.
"and we need your help to finish the set" from the KS page, if the designs are not completed how can backers be sure they will receive a deck at all? Not to mention that this is someone who "who owns and operates" their own tattoo shop, do they even have time?
So far "This project is a labor of love that has been several years in the making" but now the remainder of the deck will be designed, finished, printed and distributed by the end of the year?
I can't back this...
I recall noticing that as well. It doesn't necessarily mean that the deck won't be delivered, but it does mean there's a good chance it will deliver late. It's what happened to Lance Miller with his Artist's Edition Bicycle Actuators on KS. He was late by months because he hadn't completed at least most of the art before launching the project.
To be honest I had just finished reading the update for 'The Type Deck' on KS and while I think she is off to an amazing start and is a genuine person, it just made me wonder.
I think its still okay to back it for the time being. There are many decks on KS that are still on the works while the project is running, be it minor editing or doing a brand new court card. I think what is more important is that the designer keeps on updating the deck and cards as the project timer ticks down. I feel backing gives the designer some motivation to continue doing their stuff instead of worrying about how the project is running.
If not, there is always time to cancel your pledge should you feel the designer is not updating, has gone missing, or somehow unable to fulfill his delivery timing. Then again, I'm not saying that i agree with it, but there are tons of late projects in KS now, even from better known designers. Some blame USPCC, some blame the tuck box company, and others blame the logistics company. Most importantly, i feel is that they update you with proof/imagesand work on the delivery.
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A Roller Derby rules card! That's brilliant! We actually had the idea to make a roller derby rules coloring book as a kind of kitschy item that teams could hand out at bouts, but this is a really cool way we could round out the deck.
I understand the hesitance about supporting a deck that isn't completely designed yet. I can tell you that it's my job to manage the art creation process and keep Shannon on track. The timeline posted to the Kickstarter page is an outside estimate, assuming that the art takes longer than we expect. Running a tattoo shop means Shannon is experienced with creating art on a schedule, so she can most definitely make it happen.
You don't know me, so I can offer no proof of our intentions, I can only tell you that while we're new to the world of playing cards, I'm a professional at what I do, and Shannon is a professional at what she does, and everyone on our team is extremely excited to hold a deck of these cards in our hand. We want this project to get finished and delivered rapidly as much as anyone!
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It's your first deck and it's a common thing for first time deck makers to want to take the art a piece at a time, gradually, perhaps even not launching with all the art in place yet.
However, it's better for customer satisfaction that if your deck isn't 100% finished (though open to tweaks) before the launch, then it should be mighty close to 100% by the time the project closes. A major disadvantage to NOT doing it this way is that you're trying to sell people on your deck when they've only seen a fraction of the artwork that will be appearing in it. Having that finished or near-finished product helps when you're asking strangers for money!
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First off: I am a HUGE fan of the concept, and the artwork. I have family in derby (either that, or I am derby family :-) and I wish this deck would fund. Sadly, the first-time-into-playing-cards really shows. Don gave you a bunch of expert advice. Lots. Mine is a shorter list.
- Can't do full bleed. Just can't.
- PLEEZE move the indices closer to the edge so that I can hold them, fan them, and use them as playing cards.
- Ideally, you could make those indices smaller, but if you're sold on JUMBO index, at least move them closer to the edge
- Isn't there some theme in these illustrations that would make it obvious when you play a king that it's a king, and that the queens have a common theme, and the jacks are identifiable? Could they maybe be on the same team? Something.
- Having two decks with contrasting backs is a HUGE benefit. To me that's much more important than two-way backs. But in this case, a bad-ass deck and a sweetheart deck, both two way, tells the story and sells the mdse.
- Bicycle brand is a big winner as well.
- Are any of her illustrations one-eyed? Or could be read as suicidal? You might want to lay them out as the correct one-eyed cards, and the suicide king.
- Love the pip layout!
- Don't love the index font.
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It's a fair assessment to say that we've made a few rookie mistakes. Unfortunately, the unfinished status of the deck is more or less impossible to remedy before the Kickstarter ends. When we started our research on this (like 3 years ago?) the landscape of custom decks looked quite different, and it seemed reasonable to offer a partially-finished deck on Kickstarter and get the funding to complete it and print it. Now it seems like the standard practice is to complete the design first, and use KS only for the printing costs. We'll definitely be keeping that in mind for future projects.
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Thanks for your post GBAllison!
• Full bleed has been nixed, at the recommendation of just about every serious poker player or cardist who has seen the design.
• I'm actually moving the indices TODAY:) I have a personal preference for wide borders in my graphic design work, and I now realize that that was a silly thing to bring with me into a project like this. I may also shrink them a bit.
• Our Aces will be identifiable, and of course Jokers, but the kings/queens/jacks don't have an identifying trait at the moment.
• Now that we're looking at the very real possibility of failing to meet our goal by the end of the Kickstarter, we're considering how we'll re-launch the deck if that's the case. A matched pair of decks will be a part of that discussion.
• I'll talk to Shannon about one-eyed & suicide cards. That's actually something that hadn't occurred to me, but did occur to one of our team members.
• Glad you dig the pips! I seriously had no idea what I was doing there, but I like the result.
• I 75% like the index font. I feel like it's pointier in the numbers than the letters, and I chose it for the letters. I may be able to adjust the pointiness of the numbers to make it more uniform.
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It's a fair assessment to say that we've made a few rookie mistakes. Unfortunately, the unfinished status of the deck is more or less impossible to remedy before the Kickstarter ends. When we started our research on this (like 3 years ago?) the landscape of custom decks looked quite different, and it seemed reasonable to offer a partially-finished deck on Kickstarter and get the funding to complete it and print it. Now it seems like the standard practice is to complete the design first, and use KS only for the printing costs. We'll definitely be keeping that in mind for future projects.
Not everyone goes into it with a fully-finished project - some like going in partially done. But a fully done deck is easier to advertise since you can show off everything, and the artists who create-as-they-go are in most cases professional designers who know how to work on a timetable and will schedule the work to be completed as the project reaches its end.
Thanks for your post GBAllison!
• Full bleed has been nixed, at the recommendation of just about every serious poker player or cardist who has seen the design.
• I'm actually moving the indices TODAY:) I have a personal preference for wide borders in my graphic design work, and I now realize that that was a silly thing to bring with me into a project like this. I may also shrink them a bit.
• Our Aces will be identifiable, and of course Jokers, but the kings/queens/jacks don't have an identifying trait at the moment.
• Now that we're looking at the very real possibility of failing to meet our goal by the end of the Kickstarter, we're considering how we'll re-launch the deck if that's the case. A matched pair of decks will be a part of that discussion.
• I'll talk to Shannon about one-eyed & suicide cards. That's actually something that hadn't occurred to me, but did occur to one of our team members.
• Glad you dig the pips! I seriously had no idea what I was doing there, but I like the result.
• I 75% like the index font. I feel like it's pointier in the numbers than the letters, and I chose it for the letters. I may be able to adjust the pointiness of the numbers to make it more uniform.
* Nixing full bleed for a project like this is good.
* Indices being moved, yay. Border - I feel it's more of an artistic choice, but I will say that it helps show off your art more if you make them thinner. It's become a popular trend with custom playing card decks.
* Adjusting the font sounds good. In most standard decks with a standard-sized index, the pip is half the height of the value and both are of uniform width on all the cards. It's why "A" and "K" in a deck have nice serifs while "10" is really a line and a racetrack oval!
* Court cards with identifying traits: again, it's a choice. Your deck has a specific theme to it. This also goes for the "traditional" configurations of the court cards. Not every deck must have a suicide king, two one-eyed jacks, a bedpost queen, etc. Naturally, the beer-and-pretzels poker players like them, but in the end it's an artistic decision. Not every deck follows that convention.
Interesting story for you: I have a few tricks that require the spectator to have some knowledge of poker, specifically the hands and their ranks. In my personal experience, fewer than one in twenty people and one in ten adults know anything about poker, so in the end I don't perform those tricks as often as I'd like. The moral of the story is that you need not worry too hard about the standard conventions for court cards, especially for a specialized custom deck such as yours.
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P.S. Agree with Don completely that the court conventions (one-eyed, etc) and court themes are anything but mandatory. But what's supremely frustrating to me is when the collection *does* include one-eyed characters, and then because the deck designer isn't thinking (or doesn't know), decides to put the one-eyed character in the wrong place. If you have a suicide king candidate, make it the king of hearts not the queen of spades.
Similarly, if the illustrations *can* be grouped into themes that would make it easier to tell apart the kings from queens, then they should do that, instead of using Random as the design approach.
I will say that I've often thought about this telling-apart-the-court-values issue with pure-art card decks. It seems to me that it would be pretty easy to modify the *border* treatment, around the art, so that all the kings have one type of border, all the queens have a different border, etc.
Of course if the kings' border was full bleed (oops, full circle :-)
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The simplest way to manage this courts thing is by the use of the crowns. Jacks have one style of crown in a standard deck, as do Queens and Kings. They can be wearing the crowns, it can be on a jersey, it can be incorporated into a trophy the derby girl is holding in her arms, etc.
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After some futzing, here's a new version of the indices/borders. I'm in a bit of a corner with the courts (pun unintended, I swear), as I have to leave room for a white border as well as some space between the border of the art and the indices. The result is that the indices are a little farther from the edge than I'd prefer.
Critiques please!
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Looking good! :D
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After some futzing, here's a new version of the indices/borders. I'm in a bit of a corner with the courts (pun unintended, I swear), as I have to leave room for a white border as well as some space between the border of the art and the indices. The result is that the indices are a little farther from the edge than I'd prefer.
Critiques please!
The present placing looks fine to me, I think. I would love to see you make the spot cards into art cards as well, though I know that adds an order of magnitude to the amount of work that needs to be completed. But they would be SO COOL!
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After some futzing, here's a new version of the indices/borders. I'm in a bit of a corner with the courts (pun unintended, I swear), as I have to leave room for a white border as well as some space between the border of the art and the indices. The result is that the indices are a little farther from the edge than I'd prefer.
Critiques please!
The present placing looks fine to me, I think. I would love to see you make the spot cards into art cards as well, though I know that adds an order of magnitude to the amount of work that needs to be completed. But they would be SO COOL!
I second the notion of a complete art deck. I love the one Bicycle had for sale on the shop Bicycle site: The Brosmind Deck. It wouldn't be practical for playing poker though. Good luck for the next 36 hours! It is very close to funding.