PlayingCardForum.com - A Discourse For Playing Cards
Playing Card Chat ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦ => Playing Card Plethora => Topic started by: CBJ on December 22, 2011, 11:22:27 AM
-
Well, it seems like the U.S. Government want their piece of the pie.
If you've raised $20,000 plus, or have more than 200 backers... guess who will be knocking on your door looking for a hefty percentage? The I.R.S.
Will this be the end of custom decks on Kickstarter??
CBJ
-
Why is that? [size=78%]18% is crazy![/size]
Decks will cost a lot more if being on kickstarter, and fewer people would buy them.
-
i love being a part of the SSA...
-
Do you have a link to some specific info?
-
i love being a part of the SSA...
Shell Shuckers of Australia? Super Scientists Anonymous? ;) Seriously, what's SSA?
If you're a business, and making money, you're a taxable entity in the US. $20,000 in financing or 200 financial supporters apparently is enough to qualify you as a business.
Still, I'd like to see the details on this one.
-
Socialist States of America.
-
So, I was told this during a conversation...
The % amount may not be accurate, but the fact that you will have to report this as income on your taxes is accurate.
Trying to look into it more
CBJ
-
You know, from a reasonable perspective, this makes sense. Whether you believe in taxes as a whole or not, the fact remains that they exist, and all businesses, big or small, must report income and pay taxes on it. Even if you break even on a Kickstarter project, you raised $20,000 and spent $20,000, that's currency that's been moved in exchange for goods or services and it should be recorded to give authorities an accurate estimate of the economy.
-
Keep in mind that unless you're earning a certain amount every year all the funds will be returned to you, but the problem is the funds are needed at project's end. After Kickstarter taking 5%, Amazon taking 5%, 10% of people having their cards declined, and the USPCC charging its sales tax, and shipping charging sales tax, you end up with nothing.
I raised $27k after all the deductions, not including US Taxes. The USPCC wants $15k for the cards, I need about $8k for shipping, $2k to pay for marketing and development, and the USPCC taxes you, so that's another $1k, and you gotta love the USPCC's hidden costs ("we went ahead and finalized your design without your permission, that will be $1000!")
No matter how you put it, people did not file their Kickstarter earnings on their taxes before because what kind of horrible person would give money to a government that just forwards that money to a bank bailout?
Anyway, I'm done with Kickstarter. They're a complete joke. They didn't even extend the collection period for me, after they spent 8 days herp-derping around with Amazon not knowing what the problem was and ended up just telling me it was a technical glitch.
Now all we need is an alternative to the USPCC so that the monopoly ends and I'll be a happy camper.
-
I don't think Kickstarter is a bad thing, but it will take careful planning and consideration to do it right and price everything where it needs to be. In my mind, what you are really paying them for is risk removal. I could pay to have all the decks made myself, but then you have to make sure you sell them in a timely fashion. Via the Kickstarter method, things don't happen until you secure the outside funding, so you've guaranteed that you will not get hosed (provided you accounted for all the costs correctly, of course).
I don't think anyone wants to do all that work simply to produce 1 thing and disappear, but to have enough success that the next iteration is easier and more successful. That's certainly my mental goal.
All that said, while I think a properly set up Kickstart is a good route to start with, I've been pondering alternatives too...
-
Keep in mind that unless you're earning a certain amount every year all the funds will be returned to you, but the problem is the funds are needed at project's end. After Kickstarter taking 5%, Amazon taking 5%, 10% of people having their cards declined, and the USPCC charging its sales tax, and shipping charging sales tax, you end up with nothing.
I raised $27k after all the deductions, not including US Taxes. The USPCC wants $15k for the cards, I need about $8k for shipping, $2k to pay for marketing and development, and the USPCC taxes you, so that's another $1k, and you gotta love the USPCC's hidden costs ("we went ahead and finalized your design without your permission, that will be $1000!")
No matter how you put it, people did not file their Kickstarter earnings on their taxes before because what kind of horrible person would give money to a government that just forwards that money to a bank bailout?
Anyway, I'm done with Kickstarter. They're a complete joke. They didn't even extend the collection period for me, after they spent 8 days herp-derping around with Amazon not knowing what the problem was and ended up just telling me it was a technical glitch.
Now all we need is an alternative to the USPCC so that the monopoly ends and I'll be a happy camper.
How are you planning on funding future aether decks?
-
Now all we need is an alternative to the USPCC so that the monopoly ends and I'll be a happy camper.
There are many alternatives to the USPCC, even some good ones. Some good ones are even part of the Jardan Corp. The problem is there are too many individuals on these forums that are not open-minded enough to give other manufacturers a fair chance. Untill others are given a fair chance, USPCC is the only acceptable manufacturer. And that sucks.
-
But I need kickstarter for a start :-\ I hope it doesn't go down in popularity, funding would be much harder. Though the taxes thing doesn't concern me, being Canadian.
-
But I need kickstarter for a start :-\ I hope it doesn't go down in popularity, funding would be much harder. Though the taxes thing doesn't concern me, being Canadian.
I may be wrong, but I think kickstarter is only for American based startups and you need a US address and such to be able to use it as a creator.
-
Also, who ISNT paying their taxes? I set $4,000 aside from Brimstone and $5,000 for Americana. Paying 18-22% is standard for all income from jobs.
This is not news.
-
I'm not to sure on how taxes work in the US, but even if you didn't use Kickstarter you would surely still have to pay business taxes if your doing it through a business right?
Though the taxes on top of the Kickstarter fee's and everything else is getting a bit expensive and I can see your points of view.
-
It's a matter of what you report on your taxes and what you do not. It's not actually Kickstarter that is enforcing the taxes, it is Amazon Payments. PayPal is still tax free.
Who doesn't pay their taxes, Russell? I don't know, depends how honest you are on your taxes. In the long run, the several thousand I lost from Amazon Payments will just be returned to me in full, and then some, but the problem is I need the money now, not later.
@Jriffel: What other alternatives are there? I haven't seen any. Gemaco and Cartamundi are awful. We need alternatives with the same or more customization options. Alternatives that use a good finish. So far, the only non-USPCC decks I have used that are as good/better are Poker Anglo's and MSM decks.
-
I may be wrong, but I think kickstarter is only for American based startups and you need a US address and such to be able to use it as a creator.
It does say on the site that you have to be a US resident, but then when you search by city you can find plenty of projects from other countries. They do mention that they're trying to expand to more countries, too, so that might be part of it.
-
It's a matter of what you report on your taxes and what you do not. It's not actually Kickstarter that is enforcing the taxes, it is Amazon Payments. PayPal is still tax free.
Who doesn't pay their taxes, Russell? I don't know, depends how honest you are on your taxes. In the long run, the several thousand I lost from Amazon Payments will just be returned to me in full, and then some, but the problem is I need the money now, not later.
@Jriffel: What other alternatives are there? I haven't seen any. Gemaco and Cartamundi are awful. We need alternatives with the same or more customization options. Alternatives that use a good finish. So far, the only non-USPCC decks I have used that are as good/better are Poker Anglo's and MSM decks.
Have you tried card-shark.de? They've used USPC and still do, but they also operate their own facility - and they offer full customization.
-
As you know Gemaco is part of the Jardan Corp, along with USPCC and Fournier. Gemaco and Fournier are able to operate (mostly) independantly from the USPCC. Gemaco has it's newer "Super-Flex" casino grade that has made many heads turn. Cartamundi's presses in Texas have also turned out newer impressive stocks and finishes. Fournier has produced excellent quality and stock/finish combinations for many years that match the "Magic Finish".
Mostly all card presses turn out varying grades of stock/finish combinations. Just because you have looked at their "consumer" level of decks, don't relegate them all to only making lower-class decks. USPCC also makes many lower-class decks.
-
Have you tried card-shark.de? They've used USPC and still do, but they also operate their own facility - and they offer full customization.
Their own facility's cards are nothing like the USPCC decks from what I've tried (the Jill Deck). They don't spread or fan; I don't think most people would like them.
-
As you know Gemaco is part of the Jardan Corp, along with USPCC and Fournier. Gemaco and Fournier are able to operate (mostly) independantly from the USPCC. Gemaco has it's newer "Super-Flex" casino grade that has made many heads turn. Cartamundi's presses in Texas have also turned out newer impressive stocks and finishes. Fournier has produced excellent quality and stock/finish combinations for many years that match the "Magic Finish".
Mostly all card presses turn out varying grades of stock/finish combinations. Just because you have looked at their "consumer" level of decks, don't relegate them all to only making lower-class decks. USPCC also makes many lower-class decks.
I think part of the issue here is that we have collectors who, regardless of the quality, have chosen to focus their collections on USPC products exclusively. The other products from other companies could be made on the wings of angels and printed in pixie dust and they wouldn't care unless they came off the presses of USPC in Cincinnati or Erlanger - and many prefer Cincinnati, though recent-issue Erlanger decks are probably better.
It's a choice they made, what can I say? While nearly every deck I have is from USPC or a subsidiary, I do have a few that aren't and that I like.
And "lower-class" USPC decks aren't exactly what any quality deck designer is ever aiming for.
Jarden does own Gemaco and Fournier, but they're considered (at least in the press I've read) to be subsidiaries of USPC. Cartamundi does make some unique products, many of which are casino grade - I'm personally fond of the Magic Castle decks they printed.
Have you tried card-shark.de? They've used USPC and still do, but they also operate their own facility - and they offer full customization.
Their own facility's cards are nothing like the USPCC decks from what I've tried (the Jill Deck). They don't spread or fan; I don't think most people would like them.
Drat. I want the Jill Deck!
What the whole thing boils down to is that Uncle Sam wants his cut. Work with any domestic "fundraiser" like Kickstarter or printer like USPC, Cartamundi, Joe from the Block, etc. and you'll run into these issues. Only way to dodge that is base your operations out of the country - which is no easy feat if you're not out of the country yourself.
I don't see this as the end of custom decks on Kickstarter, but I do see this as the first red flag that goals will have to go higher, resulting in higher chances that designs will fail. Sure, some "low-yield" deck makers will get teh money back from the government at year's end, but you still need the cash up front.
Timing could help - time a deck release for Q4 in any given year, get the cash just before year's end, let Sammie take his cut, then file your taxes ASAP in Q1 the following year for a faster refund. But who wants to see a whole year's worth of decks hit KS in one season?
-
IMO this is not that big a hurtle. Sure your gonna have to keep accurate paper work but in the end your just considered a small business. Unless your making tens of thousands of dollars after all of your overhead (kickstarter, Amazon, USPCC, Postage, etc.) which I'm guessing is not the case here, you should be fine. The IRS is not gonna count the total Kickstarter as income. You report everything of course but you also report your overhead. I'm guessing your only gonna show a profit of under $5000 (this is just a guess...nobody quote this!) In the end as long as you report honestly and don't take a bunch of Small Business deductions (home office...etc.) This might make a difference of around $100-$200 on your taxes. I can't speak about your state taxes as all states are a little different. This is just my experience with my own small business.
-
No, it's considered income. You'll get the taxed portion of your Kickstart back if you have a very low yield/profit on it, but you have to fork over the cash to Sammie in the first place. It's why I suggested Kicking a deck in the final quarter of a given year, so you'll get the cash back quicker when you file your taxes for that year in the first quarter of the next year.
-
I don't know all of the tax laws. I have my own accountant handle my books (its nice having a brother who is an accoutant!). I think you are referring to the option of reporting quarterly, which you can do as a business (or maybe anyone can do). I have never done that because I usually make less than $5000 any given year in my small business. I usually itemize on my personal income tax. I believe there is a line than lets you add extra income or loss from income sources other than your primary income source. I also believe that once you start reporting quarterly you have to continue to report quarterly. I guess I'm saying it would be to anyone's benefit to check with a tax professional about the best way to go about this with Kickstarter. I would not let the fear of the US government stop me from accomplishing what Alex and others have.
-
I don't know all of the tax laws. I have my own accountant handle my books (its nice having a brother who is an accoutant!). I think you are referring to the option of reporting quarterly, which you can do as a business (or maybe anyone can do). I have never done that because I usually make less than $5000 any given year in my small business. I usually itemize on my personal income tax. I believe there is a line than lets you add extra income or loss from income sources other than your primary income source. I also believe that once you start reporting quarterly you have to continue to report quarterly. I guess I'm saying it would be to anyone's benefit to check with a tax professional about the best way to go about this with Kickstarter. I would not let the fear of the US government stop me from accomplishing what Alex and others have.
I wasn't referring to quarterly reporting - I was simply using financial quarters as a time-keeping device. Make a deck Kickstart that ends in Q4 of one year, file your taxes in Q1 of the next year, get the cash back ASAP.
-
oh....I see what you are saying now. Good idea. sorry for the misunderstanding