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Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)

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Alex Willis

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By Larry Sanders.  1st Created.  $17K Goal.  Unusual early birds, ultimate deck cost $10.  Lots and lots and lots of art to buy...and decks of cards too...but mostly art.
This is art (in case you were wondering - it took me a while too).
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1427052189/mirrored-by-design-a-new-deck-of-wild-bicycle-play?ref=live
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 02:11:03 PM by Alex Willis »
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2013, 09:20:48 AM »
 

Alex Willis

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WWII Art - my guess with the Swastika and the Japanese flags.  The burned edges are a bonus. I noticed on the deck he reversed the swastika.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2013, 11:47:09 AM »
 

Collector

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I agree, there is something interesting in this deck which is hard to describe in words.
$5 early birds are cool but I am not sure about $10 price per this deck.


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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2013, 11:55:51 AM »
 

Curt


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Not really my cup of tea, a bit too abstract for my liking. I am sure there are going to be a few people out there who really like this deck but 17k is a steep goal.

I didn't see a link to the KS in the other posts above, so here it is.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1427052189/mirrored-by-design-a-new-deck-of-wild-bicycle-play?ref=live
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 11:56:59 AM by Curt »
 

Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2013, 12:27:42 PM »
 

MrMollusk

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WWII Art - my guess with the Swastika and the Japanese flags.  The burned edges are a bonus. I noticed on the deck he reversed the swastika.

The swastika is a super geometric design. My guess is that the guy didn't even think of that when drawing the deck.
Same thing with the Japanese flag. A circle and a square. But if it was WW2 art, Japan's flag would look like this



Not this



Not to mention, the "swastika" has more prongs, is curved, and stylized. It isn't bold and straight like the Nazi's. More curvy and round like a Buddhist or Hindu swastika.

I backed it because it's so different. And at 5 bucks, it's not like I was gouging my wallet.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2013, 02:18:11 PM »
 

Alex Willis

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WWII Art - my guess with the Swastika and the Japanese flags.  The burned edges are a bonus. I noticed on the deck he reversed the swastika.

The swastika is a super geometric design. My guess is that the guy didn't even think of that when drawing the deck.
Same thing with the Japanese flag. A circle and a square.

...


Not to mention, the "swastika" has more prongs, is curved, and stylized. It isn't bold and straight like the Nazi's. More curvy and round like a Buddhist or Hindu swastika.

I backed it because it's so different. And at 5 bucks, it's not like I was gouging my wallet.

I was half joking about the WWII art, I am familiar with the symbols and the time periods where they belong, but most aren't and will see what I did from the start.  Unfortunately now that I saw it that way I can't see it any other way (extra prongs or not).

I abhor modern art, I did a piece years ago as a laugh and was given an award instead.  Stupid people.  it's just lines and color, my 9 year old with a ruler, some coins and a good pen draws "modern art".  But, art is in the eye of the patron or something like that.  However.... the full uncut sheet when not up close is rather appealing.  Also, I like that he has two jokers and two wild cards.  When I first saw the wild cards I thought he was making an uno deck.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 02:20:03 PM by Alex Willis »
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2013, 12:16:26 PM »
 

lms_jam

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Hello I would like to say that at $10.00 that includes shipping so for the actual card deck your paying about $7.00 or $8.00 seems close to what others are doing on kickstarter also the cards are bicycle branded cards so they are top of the line.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2013, 05:31:44 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hello I would like to say that at $10.00 that includes shipping so for the actual card deck your paying about $7.00 or $8.00 seems close to what others are doing on kickstarter also the cards are bicycle branded cards so they are top of the line.

Am I writing to the creator of this deck?  Well, whether you are or aren't, welcome aboard!  You should head over to the "Introduce Yourself" board and make a new topic about yourself so we can properly welcome you.

Yes, it's not uncommon for decks to cost $10 - often I've seen them cost much more.  But the more expensive ones tend to have more bells and whistles, like a heavier stock, metallic inks, foil and embossing on the tuck box, etc.

I'm actually rather curious as to why the goal is as high as it is.  I'm guessing it's for a 5,000-deck print run.  It's a challenge these days to make a goal that high for a first-timer's deck - most others go more modestly, starting with the intent to create only 2,500 decks and increasing that amount only based on the success of the project.  The lower goal that allows increases the chances of success.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2013, 05:58:24 PM »
 

lms_jam

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Hello my name is Landry I am the creator of mirrored by design playing cards and it is my first project on kickstarter always wanted to design a deck of cards I will only be printing about 2,500 decks but I could print 5,000 if I can afford to do so most of my 17000 is for shipping and rewards I think that it is a worthwhile deck as all the work on it is complete as some decks I have seen the artwork is incomplete until they find out if the will get support. I understand that some are not into abstract and some are that's great If you enjoy cards get the ones you will like. Glad I found this site and thanks for any advice I have done a lot of homework on cards but you will always learn something new.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2013, 07:12:32 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hello my name is Landry I am the creator of mirrored by design playing cards and it is my first project on kickstarter always wanted to design a deck of cards I will only be printing about 2,500 decks but I could print 5,000 if I can afford to do so most of my 17000 is for shipping and rewards I think that it is a worthwhile deck as all the work on it is complete as some decks I have seen the artwork is incomplete until they find out if the will get support. I understand that some are not into abstract and some are that's great If you enjoy cards get the ones you will like. Glad I found this site and thanks for any advice I have done a lot of homework on cards but you will always learn something new.

Now, have you considered the costs of shipping?  Really gone through it and did the math?  For most similar 2,500-deck projects, $10,000 is more than enough - why $17,000?  A lower goal (without shooting too low) gives you a much better chance of succeeding.  We've seen this before, where someone just picks a number and thinks, "oh, yeah, that's a good number," without actually adding up all the costs.  It tends to lead to failure.

Not being mean or picking on you - just giving you some plain, simple facts.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2013, 07:27:18 PM »
 

lms_jam

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Yes I have done The math and 17000 is where I need to be I wanted to be at a lower goal but I wanted to offer some rewards people would enjoy but if by chance I don't make it I will change my strategy and try again.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2013, 08:44:31 PM »
 

Alex Willis

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Yes I have done The math and 17000 is where I need to be I wanted to be at a lower goal but I wanted to offer some rewards people would enjoy but if by chance I don't make it I will change my strategy and try again.

I love optimism.  I don't believe your statement that the goal is set so high to offer rewards.  Unless you're discounting them, it doesn't make sense.  Either way, good luck.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 09:02:56 PM by Alex Willis »
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2013, 08:54:32 PM »
 

lms_jam

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Sorry my words did not come out right I wanted to be lower than 17000 but could not do so if I wanted to offer rewards.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2013, 12:32:53 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Sorry my words did not come out right I wanted to be lower than 17000 but could not do so if I wanted to offer rewards.

First, before I forget - you may wish to check the spelling of "Air Cushion" on your tuck box design.  You spelled it "Air Cushon".  Little details like that can lead people to think that you really aren't up to the task and don't know what you're doing.  We've seen too many "successful" Kickstarter deck projects crash and burn because the person in charge made some key mistakes, so people now tend to be just a little more wary and judgmental about even small details like a prominent misspelling.

The more reasonable response to this rewards situation would have been to create stretch goals that include such rewards.  The plain and simple fact is that you're out to make a deck, not open a flea market selling dozens of trinkets.  Focus on the deck first, do the gimmicks and gadgets later.

THAT is why $17,000 looks like too high of a goal.  While there are some backers who'd back anyone for anything under the sun, the playing card community as a whole are a little pickier, and we know what goes into making a deck and what some of the costs involved are - especially since many of the people here are experienced designers.  I'm not among them, but I have done consulting work for some of them on their projects.  When you create a goal that high for a project that small, something smells wrong about it and it pushes people away.

I looked over the rewards you're offering, and I'm still not seeing this great expense you're talking about in regards to why your goal is so high.  Let's take your offerings one at a time:
  • Decks - the obvious reason the project exists.  Standard, early bird, autographed and a "single-card sweepstakes" for a deck.  (Be careful about those things - KS tends to frown on lottery-style offerings.  In fact, they ban them.)
  • Uncut sheets - pretty obvious; it's practically standard for most decks these days.  There's a slight increase in the cost of getting one pulled from the presses before cutting, but it's just a part of the deck-making process and made up for easily by what's being charged for them.
  • Unique art prints of various types - most of these are art from the deck itself, the kinds of things you might generate just as part of the design process, so aside from the cost of ink and paper, no big expense there.  (Not discounting your efforts, but remember - it's part and parcel of the design process of making the deck, for which you're already getting paid should you succeed.)  The unique "prints" (with all the burned-out bits) are an exception, but we're not talking about a massive expense to create them, they're already made, they exist in extremely small quantities, and - most importantly - this is a deck project, not an art sale.
  • T-shirts - fine, but this could have waited until you were successful as a stretch goal.  You can get them printed on demand from numerous companies over the Internet, so it doesn't matter whether you need a dozen or a thousand, it should have little to no effect on the project's bottom line beyond postage costs.
  • Framed, flattened tuck box - the poor man's uncut box sheet, is it?  For what you're charging as a reward, even if the framing isn't professional, you stand a good chance of losing money on it.  But since you're only offering one, it's not such a big deal, right?
  • Jigsaw puzzle of the card back - ???  This is a real head-scratcher if ever there was one.  But then again, while the photo is there, it's not actually IN the rewards list, so technically it doesn't really count as a reward, now does it?

Of every item here that isn't manufactured by USPC as part of your order, every last one of them is either already made, created as part of the design process or quickly and easily produced on demand in whatever quantities are necessary.  So my final analysis is that you're making this stuff up as you go along and you're focused more on dollar signs than playing cards, after seeing all those really big successes on Kickstarter.  There's NOTHING here to indicate that you require a goal that large.  If your project doesn't succeed, until you get back to reality on the goal, no amount of strategy changes will help.  For a simple deck design like this, you could have it made for about half that goal or less - factor in packaging and postage and the entire thing shouldn't cost more than $10,000 (and even that's a bit on the high side).

When you're serious about making a deck, let us know.  We'll be happy to listen.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2013, 02:06:40 AM »
 

lms_jam

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I appreciate your feedback when I said that I need to rethink my strategy I meant to try to get my goal down and eliminate some rewards. Also I am not thinking about money but When I costed out everything I came up with 17000 so If I am to fix my project I need to eliminate some of my cost to get the goal down. Thanks Again as I am new to this.

I noticed that my puzzle puzzled you :). It does show at the $40.00 level. Thanks
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 05:51:01 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2013, 06:17:10 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I appreciate your feedback when I said that I need to rethink my strategy I meant to try to get my goal down and eliminate some rewards. Also I am not thinking about money but When I costed out everything I came up with 17000 so If I am to fix my project I need to eliminate some of my cost to get the goal down. Thanks Again as I am new to this.

I noticed that my puzzle puzzled you :). It does show at the $40.00 level. Thanks

Thanks for pointing that out.  But as with many of the other items, this is limited (in this case to just ten) and there are companies that will produce them on demand, so it's not something that should represent a significant expense in the budget.  If you got creative about it, you could even buy a blank puzzle, pre-cut, print a design onto paper, place the paper on the puzzle with adhesive and cut the paper where the puzzle pieces meet - voila, instant puzzle.  Here, this website will sell you printable, blank puzzles for under $15 each.  All ten can be completed in a single afternoon for about $200 including the cost of ink/toner.

Look, I'm not trying to make this personal in any way.  I'm just pointing out that people will have a hard time buying that you need $17,000 to make 2,500 decks, even with the extra gewgaws.  That, in turn, will make it harder for people to take your project seriously and create a disincentive for investing.  It's hard enough to get a deck made without this - it's like taking your turn at bat with a strike and two balls in the count before you've even taken the plate.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2013, 08:25:57 PM »
 

lms_jam

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Hello everybody, I just wanted to let you know that I have updated my Playing Cards and added a custom seal to my deck. There are only 11 days left don't miss out get your deck today. Get 2 decks for $16.00 Check it out here http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1427052189/mirrored-by-design-a-new-deck-of-wild-bicycle-play
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2013, 08:56:38 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hello everybody, I just wanted to let you know that I have updated my Playing Cards and added a custom seal to my deck. There are only 11 days left don't miss out get your deck today. Get 2 decks for $16.00 Check it out here http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1427052189/mirrored-by-design-a-new-deck-of-wild-bicycle-play

I mean no offense, but it's possible that your design might be just a little too "out there" for most people, collectors included.  I wish you luck on raising the remaining $15,901 you need in the next eleven days.  BTW: out of curiosity, why such a high goal?  Many projects are quite successful on significantly less.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2013, 10:32:31 PM »
 

Rob Wright

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I just don't get this deck at all. Maybe I'm stupid or something, but just don't get what the whole concept is supposed to be. The designs match. they don't mirror each other.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2013, 12:33:16 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I just don't get this deck at all. Maybe I'm stupid or something, but just don't get what the whole concept is supposed to be. The designs match. they don't mirror each other.

I wouldn't sweat it much.  He's got less than 10% and less than ten days left to fund.  It is akin to an uphill battle, toothpicks against Gatling guns and grenades...
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2013, 01:46:16 AM »
 

lms_jam

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In reply to why a high goal I am new to kickstarter. I got a quote from the USPCC and I added the shipping cost and the cost of rewards but I was not sure how many decks and rewards would get backed so I just chose to take about half of the 2500 and figure the shipping for that amount and also I wanted to make sure that I had the funds to cover kickstarters 5% and amazons 3% for credit card fees. So I came up with 17000 but if I have to relaunch my project I will work on my cards to make them better and I will bring the goal down and offer less rewards. Kickstarter said to offer rewards that people might be interested in and other cardists offered posters and prints an T-shirts so I thought that they would be good rewards. Thanks again for your feedback.
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2013, 05:02:05 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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In reply to why a high goal I am new to kickstarter. I got a quote from the USPCC and I added the shipping cost and the cost of rewards but I was not sure how many decks and rewards would get backed so I just chose to take about half of the 2500 and figure the shipping for that amount and also I wanted to make sure that I had the funds to cover kickstarters 5% and amazons 3% for credit card fees. So I came up with 17000 but if I have to relaunch my project I will work on my cards to make them better and I will bring the goal down and offer less rewards. Kickstarter said to offer rewards that people might be interested in and other cardists offered posters and prints an T-shirts so I thought that they would be good rewards. Thanks again for your feedback.

Let me take a closer look at this project:

First off, the name is a bit of a misnomer.  The cards are, like most playing cards to some degree or another, rotationally symmetrical rather than reflectively symmetrical.  So "Mirrored by Design" sounds wrong, as the cards aren't mirroring anything.  This could throw people off.  "Symmetry by Design" would suit the deck better.  (Nearly ANYTHING else would suit the deck better - it's NOT mirrored!)

The rewards - $3 for a signed playing card.  Not the most popular idea you've had.  A signed deck is a different story, and even then the added cost shouldn't be too high.  Many artists/designers have given out their signature on their decks for FREE.  I know the trend is toward paying, but for a single card?  Many people pay less for a basic deck of cards than you're charging for a single signed card.

Speaking of which - a SEVEN DOLLAR premium for an autographed deck?  The deck was very reasonably priced to start with; why'd you have to go and do that?  The low price alone could have turned some heads.

Posters are nice, but they're never as popular as uncut sheets straight from the press.  A reasonably priced uncut sheet can even be cheaper than a high-grade poster, if you price it right.  But you're only offering FOUR?  Why?  Rarity is nice, but you're cutting into your ability to capitalize on uncuts.  You could have sold more of those and dropped the posters completely.

Art prints - chosen at random?   Ten bucks extra and you don't get to choose?  I can see that it wasn't a very popular reward, either.

If a single deck of cards is $8, why does buying two cost $11 more?  And the third only $6 more?  And the fourth only $2 more?  And $10 more for the fifth AND sixth?  There's no rhyme or reason to it.  It feels like you chose you costs and shipping rates by tossing a dart at a board.  This gives the project as a whole the appearance that not only does the creator have no Kickstarter experience, they have no business experience, either - KS is not a game, it's serious business.  Treat it like anything less and you're in for some hard times.

I don't care if you're the world's greatest deck designer - if you have no business sense, any project you do manage to get off the ground will blow up in your lap.  We've seen it happen all too many times - I can draft you a list of the "successful" projects that failed to deliver because of business mistakes (or in some cases, outright fraud) perpetrated by the project's creator.  Nobody want the consumer advocacy services of dozens of different cities breathing down their necks - according to the people going through it now, it's more than a little stressful.

OK, rant over, back to rewards.  Puzzles as a reward tier - it's unique, but I don't think it's really striking a chord for backers.  You've got exactly ONE person interested.

$44 for two decks and a TORN-OPEN box, framed?  You couldn't get an uncut tuck box sheet?  This doesn't exactly trigger the urge to buy, considering that it will likely not look very good.  A poster of the uncut tuck box would have been better than this, and you know how I feel about posters.  Plus there's the fact that you're offering just one of them...  Before you go offering one-of-a-kind works of your art, stop and think just how much that contributes to your campaign.  It's ONE piece of art, that's it!  It's reminiscent of the guy who was trying to sell decks by offering CDs of his own music.  It helped his campaign about as much as your art is helping yours.  Wacky, less-than-desirable rewards offered in tiny quantities really just clutter the reward tiers and make them confusing to navigate while doing practically nothing to help your bottom line - even if you did manage to get a backer, it's just one pledge, that's it, one and done, no more to be had, etc.  You want to give away more items as rewards that exist in quantities greater than one - or ten, or even a hundred.  THESE are items that generate income.

There's an expression - Keep It Simple.  It's the polite version of the acronym K.I.S.S., sure, but it still holds true.  You could have offered your deck in quantities and prices that make logical sense, the t-shirts, the uncut sheets, and a few art images of the buyer's choice, or perhaps make the court cards available four to a sheet - I've seen that before and it actually looks very nice.  But make sure they're really art images and not stuff you churned out on the home printer - trust me, it makes a difference, and should you ever attempt another design, your former backers will remember.

If you want to offer more things, you do it in stages, as stretch goals.  You could make the deck unbranded at first to save cash, offer Bicycle branding if you hit a stretch goal, offer custom seals, embossing, foil, metallic inks, all kinds of goodies - as stretch goals.  Drop the alphabet print, drop the art work, drop the jigsaw puzzle - they aren't doing you any favors.  Consider the more popular (if a little overdone) add-ons, like card guard coins, custom dice, poker chips, fancy display boxes in leather or wood (or both), deck clips from Joseph Porper (or whoever you can get to make them, but Joe's work is the industry standard), etc.  I've even seen people offer stripped versions of the deck (it's a magician's version of the deck that allows for some incredible feats of card control and is often the first magic deck a beginning magician gets).  Marked versions can be popular as well as a reward tier.  For either, you'd want to consult with a magician first, someone who knows what they're doing.

Right now, your project needs to make an average of nearly $2,000 a DAY just to reach its goal.  Huge projects that break records do that - not typical deck projects that are barely squeaking along.  Consider sticking a fork in this one, canceling the project, and retooling for a better re-launch.  Give the deck a name that makes sense and actually fits the design, preferably one that rolls off the tongue a little better.  Give logic to your pricing, choose rewards and add-on carefully, create a mockup of your tuck box that doesn't look so obviously like a cheap mockup.  Neaten up the goals, make them simpler, create an "add-on" chart, perhaps even use Backerkit to help with the back end on tracking those extras.  Give the whole project an overall professional appearance.  Decide on a goal that's based in reality, on what your actual costs are with a reasonable profit margin - without cutting it so low that you end up losing cash if you're successful.  Promote the living crap out of it, day in, day out, anywhere that will listen to you.

You do all that, you'll stand a much better chance, because right now, your odds are just barely this side of nil.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 05:03:59 AM by Don Boyer »
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
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Re: Mirrored By Design A New Deck Of Wild Bicycle Playing Cards (KS)
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2013, 03:57:02 PM »
 

lms_jam

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Thank you I will take what you said and try again For now I will just let my project finish out and I will step back and try to work on my cards. When I launched my project I did think my cards were plain but as I have never printed a deck before I don't know what's going to work in the final print so I will be working hard and I will be back stronger than ever. THANKS Landry
If at first you don't succeed try try again