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Don Boyer · « **on:** February 19, 2012, 05:32:27 AM »

We all know by now about the creative deal that USPC worked out with T11 last year. So far, the results as seen from the consumer perspective are:

* USPC has a nicer looking website.
* T11's Guardians came out in an excellent USPC version.
* T11's Steam Punk deck, well - not so much. The USPC version was a big downgrade from something that was already lacking to start with.

Since these two companies are already working hand in hand, what do you think would happen if USPC were to simply buy out T11, making the whole staff there USPC employees in the Creative/Design department?

Would this be a good kick in the pants for the company, making the creative team more inventive in their in-house deck designs? Would T11 simply get absorbed and forgotten in the gears of the USPC printing presses? What about the magic side of T11 - do you think USPC would take this opportunity to really start exploring magic and adding it to the company business, or would they cast it aside in favor of just designing decks (or as some people see it, designing pretty boxes to hold cards in)?

Cast a vote and give an opinion - don't be shy about the details.

EDIT: I've expanded the poll to include the purchase of any of the major players in the card/cardistry/magic market. Imagine them buying out Ellusionist, or Dan and Dave, or perhaps The Blue Crown... How would that change things? I reset the poll for people to re-vote on the expanded possibilities.

xela · « **Reply #1 on:** February 19, 2012, 06:10:59 AM »

I don't see why Bayme would sell his baby to USPCC, a company that has no idea what they're doing when it comes to digital marketing and contemporary product design. They teamed up to help each other out.

If USPCC did buy out T11, I know I would take my business elsewhere. I'm not a fan of competing with their partner as is, but competing with the manufacturer itself in the custom cards market? That's ludicrous. That's like if the USPCC owned a chain of casinos, and made it impossible for other casinos to get their decks from anywhere else.

Monopolies only hurt the market and prevent ingenuity from taking place. If USPCC had strong competition, no doubt we would see true innovation from their R&D department. I dream of those days.

Evan · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2012, 12:32:59 PM »

T11 isn't just a playing card company... they have tricks, flourishes, the wire, etc.
Right now, they are successful as a company... we may not like their decks but they still get sold.

CBJ · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2012, 12:45:38 PM »

I really don't think this would ever happen. But, if it did, it would not be a good thing.

After talking to some people in the know... one of the reasons Ellusionist is staying away from "Bicycle" branded decks has to do with T11 being a little too involved with USPCC.

I would also imagine it would be hard for any competing company of T11, to keep their info on their new decks a secret from Theory11. I'm sure insider info is shown to the T11 team all the time.

I think the "partnership" they already have is already a not-so-good-idea, I could not imagine if a takeover happened.

CBJ

Evan · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2012, 01:39:51 PM »

Quote from: Don Boyer on February 19, 2012, 05:32:27 AM

* T11's Guardians came out in an excellent USPC version.

I hated the USPCC version of Guardians. They clumped majorly after a very short period of time.

Don Boyer · « **Reply #5 on:** February 19, 2012, 05:40:09 PM »

Quote from: MagicAddictz on February 19, 2012, 01:39:51 PM

Quote from: Don Boyer on February 19, 2012, 05:32:27 AM
* T11's Guardians came out in an excellent USPC version.
I hated the USPCC version of Guardians. They clumped majorly after a very short period of time.

You must have had a bad deck. Mine are still great; I carry them everywhere and use them a lot. As far as I know, aside from the different ad cards, they're really just the same deck and made the same way.

Anyone else have that problem with the USPC Guardians?

Aaron · « **Reply #6 on:** February 19, 2012, 05:50:39 PM »

I have both guardians versions and there were pretty much the same with different boxes and ad cards.

CBJ · « **Reply #7 on:** February 19, 2012, 06:30:51 PM »

The USPCC version of the Guardians is the first deck I purchased (other than a regular riderback)

I saw it in a wholesale store, and I thought it looked cool.

Then i researched different Bicycle decks online.. and the rest is history lol

Jay

moonexe · « **Reply #8 on:** February 19, 2012, 06:49:54 PM »

USPC buying out T11 and replacing their staff would be equivalent to making T11 disappear completely, and spending money for it. What would they gain? The brand name? Nobody would give a damn, the Bicycle name sells more than the T11 name to begin with.

John B. · « **Reply #9 on:** February 19, 2012, 08:05:12 PM »

I might actually buy their products, so far i dont like t11 but if USPCC owned it, it would change things.

kensei777 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 19, 2012, 08:30:59 PM »

Quote from: Don Boyer on February 19, 2012, 05:40:09 PM

Quote from: MagicAddictz on February 19, 2012, 01:39:51 PM
Quote from: Don Boyer on February 19, 2012, 05:32:27 AM
* T11's Guardians came out in an excellent USPC version.
I hated the USPCC version of Guardians. They clumped majorly after a very short period of time.

You must have had a bad deck. Mine are still great; I carry them everywhere and use them a lot. As far as I know, aside from the different ad cards, they're really just the same deck and made the same way.

Anyone else have that problem with the USPC Guardians?

I did, in a flourishing sense that is. I couldn't fan it as well as I would the first eds. It may have something to do with the finish. It's not really that big of a deal because in the state that my guardians are in, you would think that it's well loved. Performing magic tricks is a different story. Because of what I believe to be a lack in the finish, I found performing the strike DL tremendously easy.

sinsandman · « **Reply #11 on:** February 19, 2012, 08:32:08 PM »

T11 would dissipate into nothingness. And until they return to doing full custom decks, I say I would not care if it happened. I mean, E is doing custom work...we have the hard working solo acts like Aether and Encarded taking the deck world to whole new levels. There is no room for halfass shit anymore. Even though I still buy that halfassed shit because I am a cursed collector.

dmbaggs · « **Reply #12 on:** February 19, 2012, 10:36:13 PM »

Yeah I don't really see the point? If USPCC bought T11 they would pretty much get rid of T11. It would just become a bigger part of USPCC. It's not like it matters. T11 isn't doing much decks wise.

The reason I doubt we will see this happen (It wouldn't really happen people) is because T11 also does magic and stuff which isn't really USPCC line of work so much.

I may start a thread about what if USPCC bought D&D or E

Don Boyer · « **Reply #13 on:** February 20, 2012, 12:55:24 AM »

Quote from: brown_baggs on February 19, 2012, 10:36:13 PM

Yeah I don't really see the point? If USPCC bought T11 they would pretty much get rid of T11. It would just become a bigger part of USPCC. It's not like it matters. T11 isn't doing much decks wise.

The reason I doubt we will see this happen (It wouldn't really happen people) is because T11 also does magic and stuff which isn't really USPCC line of work so much.

I may start a thread about what if USPCC bought D&D or E

But those two options are somewhat less likely. The Buck twins are working cardists/magicians who get more popular (or infamous, depending on point of view) with their site, and Ellusionist seems more fiercely independent.

Here's the scenario I was imagining.

T11 is in some ways in USPC's hip pocket already. They simultaneously release the same deck designs - c'mon! I was considering the chance that 1) T11 would get more creative with their deck designs (some here would say "fat chance") and 2) USPC decides to take a more active role in the development of custom decks, perhaps even expanding into the magic business, since it's their decks that are used by the majority of magicians doing card magic (and most magicians do at least some card magic).

As it is now, T11 is practically their in-house custom company already - of their last three deck releases (Guardians v2, Steam Punk, Charity:Water - or did I miss any in-between?), the first two I listed have been remade as USPC decks. I figured it might end up being the equivalent of giving T11 a bigger sandbox to play in and lift some of the cost constraints they deal with as an independent company.

But it could also just become another case of "WE ARE THE PLAYING CARD BORG. YOUR ESSENCE WILL BE ABSORBED INTO THE COLLECTIVE. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE."

I'm going to expand this topic - what if USPC bought any of the major custom deck design/magic/cardistry companies? Would there be a magic combination that would give USPC the kick in the ass it needs to become a real creative force, would no one notice a thing on the consumer's side of things, or would the poor company get gobbled up, never to be heard from again? Or something completely different? Bigger still - how would it affect the marketplace as a whole?

I guess this means I'll need to edit the poll...

jriffel · « **Reply #14 on:** February 20, 2012, 05:26:41 PM »

USPCC would only buy a company that has tech that it wants (and doesn't want to develop itself). Look at the purchases of Kem, Fournier, Gemaco ... This was for the technology and presses. Buying and killing the likes of E or T11, or The Twins will not gain USPCC anything it doesn't already have. They would simply be taking over a customer, bad for business. Don't bother wasting time speculating on this, USPCC will not spend the cash on buying customers, it would be bad for the bottom line.

Evan · « **Reply #15 on:** February 20, 2012, 05:31:39 PM »

I think some of us are taking this thread a little too seriously. The question was a what if" question. I don't think any of us think that something like this will actually happen. But the question is what if it did happen?

dmbaggs · « **Reply #16 on:** February 20, 2012, 05:33:28 PM »

Quote from: MagicAddictz on February 20, 2012, 05:31:39 PM

I think some of us are taking this thread a little too seriously. The question was a what if" question. I don't think any of us think that something like this will actually happen. But the question is what if it did happen?

Well if it did happen it would absorb the companies and nothing good would come of it like jriffel mentioned

NathanCanadas · « **Reply #17 on:** February 20, 2012, 07:09:55 PM »

think all the creativeness would be gone if this happened.

digipunk · « **Reply #18 on:** February 20, 2012, 07:47:47 PM »

Never answer a hypothetical question

Don Boyer · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2012, 11:44:43 PM »

Quote from: jriffel on February 20, 2012, 05:26:41 PM

USPCC would only buy a company that has tech that it wants (and doesn't want to develop itself). Look at the purchases of Kem, Fournier, Gemaco ... This was for the technology and presses. Buying and killing the likes of E or T11, or The Twins will not gain USPCC anything it doesn't already have. They would simply be taking over a customer, bad for business. Don't bother wasting time speculating on this, USPCC will not spend the cash on buying customers, it would be bad for the bottom line.

It wasn't always tech - it was sometimes just a fast way to grow, not much different than Microsoft has done - though for MS it IS usually the tech they want! But with USPC, sometimes it was buying out a competitor to simply have one less competitor.

Many of the possible "targets" do have something USPC lacks - some degree of creative vision. It's why T11 is consulting for them in the first place, really. (Although there are people here would would argue whether T11 actually has creative vision or just a case of cataracts...)

Quote from: MagicAddictz on February 20, 2012, 05:31:39 PM

I think some of us are taking this thread a little too seriously. The question was a what if" question. I don't think any of us think that something like this will actually happen. But the question is what if it did happen?

EXACTLY! We're spitballing about what the ramifications would be IF some such thing occurred, that's all. I mean, what if USPC waved a check in front of Brad Christian's face that had too many zeros in it to ignore? Or John Bayme, or the Buck twins, or David Blaine or any other company.

Alex, what if USPC tossed you a big, fat check, said they want your business, but they wanted you to continue on as a VP in charge of R&D and Custom Card Design? Imagine further if they tossed in a budget to go with it and said "we like your vision, and we want it to be our vision in custom card manufacture."? Could you imagine yourself saying "yes"? How about you, Paul - what if they wanted to do this with Encarded because they loved what you did with the Tendril deck?

Granted, all this would entail a sea change at USPC - perhaps a big loss of market share or another buyout by the company's employees or something. Otherwise, yes, they would simply be absorbing your firm to cut out a competitor - though you aren't really a competitor since they're doing practically nil in the creativity department other than reprints of old designs. The most "creative" things I've seen them do recently were the Dog and Cat decks, "America the Beautiful" and Tragic Royalty. And they really aren't even recent.

Paul Carpenter · « **Reply #20 on:** February 21, 2012, 09:13:44 AM »

Thinking theoretically: If USPCC approached me about purchasing my designs or hiring me, I honestly think I'd decline. I do have a very good day day job, and designing cards is a fantastic addition to a hobby that I love. As it is now, I have control over everything, I work on them when I want, and they remain FUN. Sure, I do want to make a little money in the process (who wouldn't?) but I don't think I want designing cards to be my source of daily bread. Instead, I want it to remain a passion, a component of my life that is free from constraints other than the ones I put on myself. I think that if I had a manager watching my work, wondering when things would be ready, changing things to fit within the existing branded mold, it would cease to be fun.

Now that said, if they want to give me millions, maybe I'd think about it. But we all know that's about as possible as asking a chicken to redesign it's eggs. (and there's your crazy analogy of the day!)

Don Boyer · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2012, 12:11:23 AM »

Quote from: xmetal on February 21, 2012, 09:13:44 AM

Thinking theoretically: If USPCC approached me about purchasing my designs or hiring me, I honestly think I'd decline. I do have a very good day day job, and designing cards is a fantastic addition to a hobby that I love. As it is now, I have control over everything, I work on them when I want, and they remain FUN. Sure, I do want to make a little money in the process (who wouldn't?) but I don't think I want designing cards to be my source of daily bread. Instead, I want it to remain a passion, a component of my life that is free from constraints other than the ones I put on myself. I think that if I had a manager watching my work, wondering when things would be ready, changing things to fit within the existing branded mold, it would cease to be fun.

Now that said, if they want to give me millions, maybe I'd think about it. But we all know that's about as possible as asking a chicken to redesign it's eggs. (and there's your crazy analogy of the day!)

But - getting further into "what if " territory - what if they gave you a healthy sum to buy Encarded, kept you on at a healthy percentage above your current salary, and allowed you to run Encarded as your own little "fiefdom" within USPC? You wouldn't have unlimited budgets, but healthy ones, and they'd want you to push the envelope of what can be done with playing cards as functional art forms. You'd even get to give input to other departments regarding R&D you'd like to see worked on to further that vision. They would expect a moderate output of designs intended as semi-limited and limited runs, to be sold not in Target and Walmart, but in specialty retailers like magic shops, clothing stores like Hot Topic, gift stores like Spencer's, that sort of thing.

Would that be something you'd be down with, or would simply reject? What are some of the things you WOULD consider - what would be your counter-offer to USPC?

Poll

What do you believe would happen if the USPC bought one of the major (or minor) custom card/magic/cardistry companies?

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