The Apollo Deck Reprinted?

[Patrick Varnavas]

Hey guys, I figured I'd give my friends a hand and help spread around a little project they're working on. This is a Kickstarter project that's looking to reprint the Apollo Playing Cards deck from Bicycle.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/benjitaylor/apollo-playing-cards-from-1890s

This is a picture of the original deck, straight from Bicycle.



I think it looks pretty nice, I like the project. What do you guys think?

[Don Boyer]

I think it looks pretty nice, I like the project. What do you guys think?

It does look nice.  But it also looks too expensive.  The pound sterling is trading for just a little more than US$1.55 or C$1.65.  The deck itself, shipped to the US and paid for in US$, is nearly $20 as an early bird, about $24-25 at the regular price.  Two decks are about $40.  Four decks are about $68-69.  Only at six decks does it even start to become affordable, at about $90+ - a little over $15 per deck, delivered.  And even that is steep.

[xela]

I don't think it will get funded, because $25k (I know it's pounds, not dollars) is a rather steep goal, and their rewards don't allow for big buyers. Projects are not funded by people buying 1-2 decks. They are funded by people pledging $1k to stock the deck in a store.

Someone should send them a PM, though, get them on here so they can discuss their cards! Reprinting that design is certainly an excellent choice.

[Don Boyer]

I don't think it will get funded, because $25k (I know it's pounds, not dollars) is a rather steep goal, and their rewards don't allow for big buyers. Projects are not funded by people buying 1-2 decks. They are funded by people pledging $1k to stock the deck in a store.

Someone should send them a PM, though, get them on here so they can discuss their cards! Reprinting that design is certainly an excellent choice.

Patrick, would you care to volunteer?  It does look like a good deck...

[Rob Wright]

I agree with Alex, £25,000 looks to be over $38,000. That's a pretty huge number. I love the design, but with the US shipping. Don't know if I can do it. The other thing that bothers me about this. Are they doing the digitizing/artwork, or are they paying USPCC to do the work. If USPCC is doing everything then that is not what KS is all about. It may also be against KS rules.

[Card Player]

I'm thinking this should not be a kickstarter deck. This is a deck USPCC should be making themselves. Kickstarter should be used to fund your own created projects. This does not sit right with me.

[Don Boyer]

I'm thinking this should not be a kickstarter deck. This is a deck USPCC should be making themselves. Kickstarter should be used to fund your own created projects. This does not sit right with me.

I don't know about that.  There's some amount of artistry involved in a project like this, and it's very much NOT a project USPC usually pursues - they're interested in pushing the flagship lines of Bicycle and Bee far more than they are interested in reviving older lines, especially ones this old.  This is old enough that practically no one is alive who ever played with this brand and back design, thus limiting the nostalgia factor.

[Rob Wright]

I'm thinking this should not be a kickstarter deck. This is a deck USPCC should be making themselves. Kickstarter should be used to fund your own created projects. This does not sit right with me.

I don't know about that.  There's some amount of artistry involved in a project like this, and it's very much NOT a project USPC usually pursues - they're interested in pushing the flagship lines of Bicycle and Bee far more than they are interested in reviving older lines, especially ones this old.  This is old enough that practically no one is alive who ever played with this brand and back design, thus limiting the nostalgia factor.

While I would agree that USPCC would not want to pursue a project like this. If these guys are just paying USPCC to digitize/reproduce missing cards. Then how is there any artistry by these guys? Anyone can find an old set of cards on line-call the company and say how much would this cost to reproduce. Also the guy in the pitch looks like a 14 year old kid.

[Don Boyer]

While I would agree that USPCC would not want to pursue a project like this. If these guys are just paying USPCC to digitize/reproduce missing cards. Then how is there any artistry by these guys? Anyone can find an old set of cards on line-call the company and say how much would this cost to reproduce. Also the guy in the pitch looks like a 14 year old kid.

The guy in the pitch is a kid.  I figured the braces would be the giveaway...  Am I the only one that finds it odd that a London-based project is being run by a kid with an American accent?  Yet another reason while this is very unlikely to reach a goal of £25,000.

You're assuming that USPC has all the old files, plates, samples, etc. on hand.  They've lost more of their history than they've kept at this point in the game - one of the side effects of having changed hands so many times, in some cases into the hands of a neglectful owner.  This would more likely involve finding a good-quality original deck sample that's clean enough to be scanned and manually cleaning up the images until they looked print-worthy.  It's more like a job of art restoration than a simple copying job.  Art restoration can be an art in itself.

Of course, the faces could also have been obtained from a CD-ROM that's paired with a book on old playing card faces...  The only way to know for sure would be if this deck originally had genuinely unique faces that don't appear on that CD-ROM.

[Benjam]

I have to agree with what's being said here. I love the look of this deck and would pledge the shit out of this project if it were more affordable, and if it gave savings to people who wanted to buy a brick of them!
Hopefully the project gets tweaked, because the cards look great.

[Card Player]

I'm thinking this should not be a kickstarter deck. This is a deck USPCC should be making themselves. Kickstarter should be used to fund your own created projects. This does not sit right with me.

I don't know about that.  There's some amount of artistry involved in a project like this, and it's very much NOT a project USPC usually pursues - they're interested in pushing the flagship lines of Bicycle and Bee far more than they are interested in reviving older lines, especially ones this old.  This is old enough that practically no one is alive who ever played with this brand and back design, thus limiting the nostalgia factor.

While I would agree that USPCC would not want to pursue a project like this. If these guys are just paying USPCC to digitize/reproduce missing cards. Then how is there any artistry by these guys? Anyone can find an old set of cards on line-call the company and say how much would this cost to reproduce. Also the guy in the pitch looks like a 14 year old kid.

I think you misunderstood. I'm saying it should be a USPCC deck, NOT a Kickstarter.

[Paul.Middleton]

The other thing that sits a little uneasy (at least with me anyway) is that it appears to be from a project creator who cancelled a previous project - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/punchmile/the-dfc-deck-of-playing-cards-the-start-to-a-trilo?ref=live

For me it would be better to use the same account, it makes me a little nervous that he deleted that account and registered a new one.

[benjitaylor]

Hey guys, I understand everything you are saying. The bit that really costs is scanning in everything and drawing it out exactly the same so we have the files in a high enough quality to print. It is a lot of money and it is doubtful whether it will get funded. Thank you for the kind words about the project. JP does have a point. Although it is silly, I deleted my previous Kickstarter account so I could use my primary email for newer better projects. If you have any questions please ask me. Any feedback is super helpful.

I would like to ask something, what would happen if we were to cancel and relaunch with a new video, new goal etc. how would we do it? What would the response be? I am asking you guys because you know what you are talking about and I am considering this.

[Ben Taylor]

I remember your last project, mostly because you stole my name. I liked your back and ace, but you had a lot of unfinished work ahead of you when you launched that project. You asked for advice, and you were told to finish the deck and relaunch the project.

Are you paying someone to do the work or doing it yourself? I'm pretty sure most deck designers spend more than 40 hours on a deck. If you're doing the work, you should have most of it done before you launched on Kickstarter. If you're paying someone else to do it, they are going to get any profit you might have made, and you will be stuck with doing all the shipping and dealing with all the complaints.

If you're just trying to gauge the interest in the deck, you should have started a topic here. If you're really serious about this project, spend at least an hour every night working on it. You will have it 75% complete by the time the project ends, and the more work you've done, the more likely you will be to get backers.

[benjitaylor]

Hey Ben, we cannot do this bit of the process ourselves. The USPCC have one of the only decks left and it is in their archives. Legally, they are the only ones who can do this process and so we have to pay them to do it. However, I fully understand what you are saying and i'm taking everything into consideration.

[Card Player]

Hey Ben, we cannot do this bit of the process ourselves. The USPCC have one of the only decks left and it is in their archives. Legally, they are the only ones who can do this process and so we have to pay them to do it. However, I fully understand what you are saying and i'm taking everything into consideration.

Why don't you just ask USPCC to reprint the deck themselves. Why would you pay USPCC to reprint their own deck. A few years ago I really wanted Aristocrat Banknotes, so I wrote the USPCC. The answer was they had no plans at the time to reprint them. One year later we have Aristocrat Banknotes back in print. I'm not taking credit but USPCC might not know there is demand for the Apollo deck. Have you even contacted USPCC yet to see if they will allow you to print them? I'd rather wait for USPCC to release them on their own then risk money on a Kickstarter that I might not get what I pay for. Ben, you guys are not exactly the most reliable deck producers on Kickstarter.

[benjitaylor]

Good point. However, when I asked USPCC about the Apollo deck and if they had any plans to print it they said they had no plans and that's when I asked if I could make a Kickstarter to help fund not only printing the decks, but also scanning in all designs etc. I love these cards and that is why I want to try and get them back in print but that does cost a lot of money. I do get what your saying though.

[Don Boyer]

I'm thinking this should not be a kickstarter deck. This is a deck USPCC should be making themselves. Kickstarter should be used to fund your own created projects. This does not sit right with me.

I don't know about that.  There's some amount of artistry involved in a project like this, and it's very much NOT a project USPC usually pursues - they're interested in pushing the flagship lines of Bicycle and Bee far more than they are interested in reviving older lines, especially ones this old.  This is old enough that practically no one is alive who ever played with this brand and back design, thus limiting the nostalgia factor.

While I would agree that USPCC would not want to pursue a project like this. If these guys are just paying USPCC to digitize/reproduce missing cards. Then how is there any artistry by these guys? Anyone can find an old set of cards on line-call the company and say how much would this cost to reproduce. Also the guy in the pitch looks like a 14 year old kid.

I think you misunderstood. I'm saying it should be a USPCC deck, NOT a Kickstarter.

Allow me to requote a portion of the above with emphasis on the part that should answer your statement:

I'm thinking this should not be a kickstarter deck. This is a deck USPCC should be making themselves. Kickstarter should be used to fund your own created projects. This does not sit right with me.

I don't know about that.  There's some amount of artistry involved in a project like this, and it's very much NOT a project USPC usually pursues - they're interested in pushing the flagship lines of Bicycle and Bee far more than they are interested in reviving older lines, especially ones this old.  This is old enough that practically no one is alive who ever played with this brand and back design, thus limiting the nostalgia factor.

Old decks are cool, but decks so old that no one remembers them from childhood will raise shrugs rather than open wallets for most typical card buyers.  This is strictly of interest to the collectors market, thus of less interest to USPC, who aims for the biggest possible market they can find.

[benjitaylor]

I am doing this project because I think it would be awesome to reprint something that was around over a hundred years ago. To hold it in your hands would just be amazing. The goal is big but I really believe asking for any less and we would really struggle. Maybe it is too much for a deck of cards project but it is how much we need for this deck of cards project if you get what I mean. It will either get funding or it won't. It is doubtful and I fully acknowledge we are asking for a lot. We will have to wait and see.   

[xela]

- While most designers do spend more than 40 hours on a deck, that's only if they're making designs from scratch. Getting an old design to be digital, that sounds to be about 40 hours of work.

- Benji, most of your backers will be from the KS community and not from here. That said, having a deleted account definitely hurts chances of getting OUR pledges, and cancelling your project to relaunch it furthers that. I know that there can be very logistically good reasons to do these things, but you have to go about it tactfully.

I would let the project not get funded, and then relaunch it when you have all your ducks in a row at a later date.

It can't hurt you. If you get, say, a dozen more backers, that's 12 more people who will automatically pledge later on!

[Don Boyer]

I am doing this project because I think it would be awesome to reprint something that was around over a hundred years ago. To hold it in your hands would just be amazing. The goal is big but I really believe asking for any less and we would really struggle. Maybe it is too much for a deck of cards project but it is how much we need for this deck of cards project if you get what I mean. It will either get funding or it won't. It is doubtful and I fully acknowledge we are asking for a lot. We will have to wait and see.

Benji,

Your project is expensive.  VERY expensive.  And you're a young guy - more a kid, really, but I'm trying to put a nice spin on this - who's trying to create this grand business enterprise that even many adults find daunting to impossible.

My recommendation: let your project close, knowing that it's highly unlikely to get funded the first time out.  Sit down and look LONG and HARD at the costs associated with your project.  See if you can find a US distributor/fulfillment center who can work with you to reduce the cost of shipping the decks in North America (and possibly Asia/Australia, if it happens to be cheaper than shipping from the UK).  Having a UK fulfillment center to work with as well would be a big plus - it saves you from the daunting task of filling what could be THOUSANDS of orders.  Look into what extras might be appealing to your audience.  (This would be an excellent place to do such research, simply by asking around.)  Come up with hard figures that make sense and get everything lined up and ready to roll.  Then relaunch your project with a more realistic goal.  And remember that playing card projects are permitted to offer up to a dozen decks, due to how a "brick" of a dozen cards is an industry standard for packaging - Kickstarter will allow it and some of your backers will want it, especially if the discount is big enough.

Consider this, as well, though it won't be a popular decision with some: restrict orders to distant countries where you don't have a fulfillment center to a minimum of three decks.  The expense of packing one- and two-deck orders and posting them by Air Mail International will put a HUGE drain on your project's budget.  It becomes more cost-effective for you and for your distant buyer if you have them invest for at least three decks.

You really need to figure out where every nickel and dime will go and how to cover the expense.  There's an expression that's popular in the military which you should bear in mind: if you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

[benjitaylor]

Thank you Alex. I know what you mean and I am thinking about what to do. I may let the project run to the end and see what happens.

Thank you Don, this is very helpful. So in your opinion, I should cancel the project and relaunch at a later date? Will that not look very bad when I launch other projects on my account?

[kdklown]

Clearly putting the cart before the horse here but to piggyback on one of Don's comments...  A couple of add ons that, from my perspective, would be home runs with this deck are as follows...

1) Some reprints of vintage playing card advertisements.  The kind you could imagine seeing hung in a general store in the 1890's.  Could be original designs.

2) *Replicas of old time card presses.  Used around and before the turn of the last century to prolong the life of a deck of cards.  Saved buying new ones that were used constantly either in the local saloon or at home.  Of course you would have to outsource this production.*

Again a little early but theses are a couple things that leapt to mind when I thought about this deck.

* I'm sure Don will correct or can elaborate on these statements.*

[Don Boyer]

Thank you Don, this is very helpful. So in your opinion, I should cancel the project and relaunch at a later date? Will that not look very bad when I launch other projects on my account?

No, Alex raised a point about looking a little flaky if you keep launching and canceling.  Just let it run its course - unless for some odd reason you don't think £25,000 is enough to get it made and shipped...

Clearly putting the cart before the horse here but to piggyback on one of Don's comments...  A couple of add ons that, from my perspective, would be home runs with this deck are as follows...

1) Some reprints of vintage playing card advertisements.  The kind you could imagine seeing hung in a general store in the 1890's.  Could be original designs.

2) *Replicas of old time card presses.  Used around and before the turn of the last century to prolong the life of a deck of cards.  Saved buying new ones that were used constantly either in the local saloon or at home.  Of course you would have to outsource this production.*

Again a little early but theses are a couple things that leapt to mind when I thought about this deck.

* I'm sure Don will correct or can elaborate on these statements.*

Love the idea of the ads.  But making a deck press, unless you do it as a high-end item, is impractical.  Even modern deck presses made from wing nuts, bolts and Plexiglas aren't all that cheap.  A wooden one in the old style would be hundreds of dollars (or pounds sterling).

For the next attempt at this project, consider redoing the video.  Use graphics with music and/or a voiceover person with a script.  It would lend a more professional appearance.  You, in braces, talking off the cuff - you're a nice kid and all, but it's not helping you look like a mature, responsible project creator.  Image counts for a lot.

[benjitaylor]

Thanks for all the help Don. The person in the video is my good friend Sean who I am doing the project with. He is comfortable on camera so we agreed for him to do the video but I do know what you mean. If we relaunch I will be sure to make the video to a higher quality. Thanks for all your help.