Incorrect Bicycle Oak Leaf Back Auction?

[jmrock]

Although the auction has ended, I am quite certain that this deck was misrepresented in the auction in a number of ways…
1) The deck is referred to as an Oak Leaf back, when in fact it is actually a plain Leaf back refer to pics of an actual Oak Leaf back…
2) It should be noted that even though this is a Leaf back deck, in this case, the Ace and Joker belong to a deck other than a Bicycle brand deck of cards; perhaps a Bee deck, Uncle Sam deck, or other deck that shared the same back, but was called a different name… Thus, the box pictured did not actually belong to the deck shown…

[Anthony]

I was actually watching this J and just didn't feel 100% on it. Getting this kind of info and feedback is great. I didn't catch the Ace at all, good eye.

[Don Boyer]

Well, there's no denying that the back of the card at least seems to match the back on the box.  This could be a case of what I feared would happen eventually - counterfeiters printing forged vintage decks.  It was only a matter of time after the Jerry's Nugget deck forgeries.

BTW: the first image doesn't match the third - different card backs in each.

[CardConjurer]

Unfortunately, you are both incorrect.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271371038172?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1561.l2649

This is 100% authentic; I've had this deck for over 10 years. Both photos in my auction belong to the same deck of cards. It is the same box. The ace and jokers both have the same back design. I will take a video of the deck, or post more photos if either of you are interested. Let me know soon, as I may ship it out tomorrow.

I've been buying and selling vintage playing cards for over 10 years, I can assure you that I have never sold anything counterfeit or misrepresented an auction.

Lucky bidder, whoever won. Evidently this must be quite a rare deck.

EDIT: As you all know, USPC wasn't completely systematic. Lot's of oddities have existed over the years (i.e. a Leaf Back referred to as an Oak Leaf Back, or a different AOS being used than was typical). Thank you for waiting until after the auction ended to express your opinion.

[Nurul]

I'm no expert at this at all, but I do believe that that is an Uncle Sam deck of cards. Back, joker and AoS is Uncle Sam playing cards.

[badpete69]

So just read the entire thread. What are the conclusions?. Is that an Uncle Sam deck in a bicycle oak leaf back box?  By looking at the back of the tuck box, the backs seem to match...Is the Oak back leaf deck the exact same as the uncle Sam?  This  is becoming interesting

[jmrock]

Card Conjurer… This is not a personal attack on you, but rather I am just trying to get to the bottom of this situation… No one is accusing you of knowingly misrepresenting an item, as I'm sure it happens accidentally more times than one may think (and I'm sure not by accident  also more times than one may think)…  I do indeed find it odd that the box clearly has a pic on the back of what is clearly not an Oak Leaf back, but is labeled "Oak Leaf…"  The deck, however, is another story… I do believe that this is not a Bicycle deck, as there is no Bicycle Joker or Bicycle Ace of Spades… Perhaps Mr. Dawson could weigh in on this debate…

[Nurul]

Also, why would a box saying oak leaf back have a normal leaf back design? Card conjurer, if you don't mind making a short video displaying the front and back of the tuck, AoS and joker please?

[CardConjurer]

Card Conjurer… This is not a personal attack on you, but rather I am just trying to get to the bottom of this situation…

Sorry I was a bit quick to take offense.

Also, why would a box saying oak leaf back have a normal leaf back design? Card conjurer, if you don't mind making a short video displaying the front and back of the tuck, AoS and joker please?

I'll take a video when I get off work.

I bought this deck so long ago, I don't remember where I got it. One thing I do know, is that I didn't buy it from a collector or a magician. That makes me think that this deck might not be in a different box. That, coupled with the fact that the back design was named different than usual, makes me believe this.

ALTHOUGH, the deck has a G-1945 AOS code, which is evidently 2 years before the Leaf Back Bicycle design began. The Uncle Sam decks were produced in the early 40's (incl. 1945). So, it may be that the actual deck is an Uncle Sam deck.

The other possibility, is that this back design began earlier than previously thought, with a different name which was later changed. Since the deck was produced in 1945 (the same year the war ended), it may be possible that this deck was made earlier than the box, and a new box was created to match the deck which was originally printed as an Uncle Sam deck. I'm making the assumption that Uncle Sam decks were not printed after the war's end.

Anyways - I'm not sure we'll be able to come to any more certainty, but perhaps Mr. Dawson could weigh in.

Anyways, I will post the video a little later tonight.

[52plusjoker]

OK preliminary weighin!
This ace and joker were quite common in USPC generic decks and certain of their cheaper brands after WWII. This deck is clearly of that period and authentic. The box refers to the company that makes Bicycle - a reasonable marketing effort to add credibility. Now I can't see the pix as I write this but I think the back was not an attempt to pass it off as a Bike rather just using a design they liked and would sell. Many backs were use for several brands, e.g. Angel back.

[HeartQ]

I am sure that this is a case of the wrong deck in a bike box as USPC would never have used a bicycle box of that period for anything other than a bike deck. That back was definitely used for other brands c1940.  Up until a few years ago USPC were incredible protective of their bicycle brand - that has definitely changed!

[CardConjurer]

Below is a link to a video showing the deck.

Let me know what ya'll think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6gPPJRBchY

[Lee Asher]

Below is a link to a video showing the deck.

Let me know what ya'll think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6gPPJRBchY

Thanks for taking the time to shoot that vid Taylor!

[52plusjoker]

What we seem to have is a Leaf back in a box with the Leaf back pictured on the back of a box which says Oak Leaf Back. It is also the correct deck for the Uncle Sam deck pictured by Nurul. The original Oak Leaf back (pictured as #82 ) in a seperate post is the rare one and likely only issued for a short time in the last part of the 19th century. We only know of a couple of these. We have one and Joe, we think, has one. Maybe a few others around but..........
Someone referred to Mrs Robinson's book - indeed she only discussed and pictured 81 backs and clearly was unaware of the Oak Leaf at the time of writing in the 1950's.

[jmrock]

Taylor… Glad to see you join here… Didn't know that was you… Why does everyone keep changing up their screen names or was it UC or eBay I knew you from?  Anyways… Good to see you posting here…

Tom… So what's the verdict?  Have you ever seen a Bicycle Deck appear without the Bicycle AoS or Bicycle Joker?

[52plusjoker]

What we seem to have is a Leaf back in a box with the Leaf back pictured on the back of a box which says Oak Leaf Back. It is also the correct deck for the Uncle Sam deck pictured by Nurul. The original Oak Leaf back (pictured as #82 ) in a seperate post is the rare one and likely only issued for a short time in the last part of the 19th century. We only know of a couple of these. We have one and Joe, we think, has one. Maybe a few others around but..........
Someone referred to Mrs Robinson's book - indeed she only discussed and pictured 81 backs and clearly was unaware of the Oak Leaf at the time of writing in the 1950's.

More info from Judy. She reminded me that it was Gene Hochman who found the first deck known as Oak Leaf which he sold to us. There was no box but it was a very early Bicycle and at that time the back names were not put on the boxes. We have never seen it listed in a catalogue or sample folder/book so no name can be attributed to it by USPC who do not have it themselves in their archives/collection. It was Gene Hochman who decided to call it "Oak Leaf " because of its appearance. Therefore what USPC called Oak Leaf in the 1940's was not the same back as what is now considered #82 Oak Leaf. Finally, what Mrs Robinson called Leaf may well have really been what USPC called Oak Leaf in the 1940's. A mystery and we have some ideas for further detective work on this intriguing question.

[52plusjoker]

Taylor… Glad to see you join here… Didn't know that was you… Why does everyone keep changing up their screen names or was it UC or eBay I knew you from?  Anyways… Good to see you posting here…

Tom… So what's the verdict?  Have you ever seen a Bicycle Deck appear without the Bicycle AoS or Bicycle Joker?

Neither Judy or I have ever seen a Bicycle deck with a generic Ace or Joker. As the Leaf back seems to have been called Oak Leaf by USPC in their 1940-50 period Bicycle decks, it is from our view, based on what we have seen, an Uncle Sam/generic deck in a Bicycle box with the same back.
More on this tomorrow.

[jmrock]

Neither Judy or I have ever seen a Bicycle deck with a generic Ace or Joker. As the Leaf back seems to have been called Oak Leaf by USPC in their 1940-50 period Bicycle decks, it is from our view, based on what we have seen, an Uncle Sam/generic deck in a Bicycle box with the same back.
More on this tomorrow.

That's what I think… However, I am still perplexed as to why the box states, "Oak Leaf Back," when it is indeed an ordinary "Leaf Back…" Is this as Taylor states?  Did USPC make such errors in the past? If so, do these errors become more valuable?  Thanks for your thoughts and to help clarify…

To expand on the previous thought, have there been any known errors in USPC history that have impacted the value of that particular deck?

[Don Boyer]

Unfortunately, you are both incorrect.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271371038172?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1561.l2649

This is 100% authentic; I've had this deck for over 10 years. Both photos in my auction belong to the same deck of cards. It is the same box. The ace and jokers both have the same back design. I will take a video of the deck, or post more photos if either of you are interested. Let me know soon, as I may ship it out tomorrow.

I've been buying and selling vintage playing cards for over 10 years, I can assure you that I have never sold anything counterfeit or misrepresented an auction.

Lucky bidder, whoever won. Evidently this must be quite a rare deck.

EDIT: As you all know, USPC wasn't completely systematic. Lot's of oddities have existed over the years (i.e. a Leaf Back referred to as an Oak Leaf Back, or a different AOS being used than was typical). Thank you for waiting until after the auction ended to express your opinion.

Trust me - it's never unfortunate when I'm incorrect.  It gives me a chance to learn the truth!

I see what happened in regards to my assumption.  The first image wasn't a part of your auction page, but I didn't know this and assumed it was.  Thanks for posting the link so I could see for myself.

This is strictly conjecture, but it looks like what you have here is a case of mixed decks.  The simplest explanation is more often than not the correct one, and the simplest one I can come up with would be that someone owned a pack of Uncle Sam and a pack of what USPC was referring to as the "Oak Leaf Back", but known in Mrs. Robinson's as the Leaf back - and possibly many other packs.  Game night takes place, perhaps the two decks were combined for a two-deck game or to create a pinochle deck (perfectly logical, since the backs are the same style and color), then when separated, the wrong AoS and jokers went into the Bicycle box.

Suffice it to say, they're not counterfeits!  Thanks for bringing this to us, Jonathan - gotta love a mystery!

[Josh Blackmon]

I've seen this situation before! Last year I purchased a deck off eBay with the same Bicycle oak leaf box pictured above. The auction did not display the AoS or jokers only the box and a stack of cards. Upon receiving the item I opened it to find cards with the correct back but with this same non bicycle ace and same joker as above. I immediately sent it back to the seller for a refund.  Wish I could still pull up the eBay transaction but it is long gone.

[52plusjoker]

Thanks Josh - interesting...

[52plusjoker]

What we seem to have is a Leaf back in a box with the Leaf back pictured on the back of a box which says Oak Leaf Back. It is also the correct deck for the Uncle Sam deck pictured by Nurul. The original Oak Leaf back (pictured as #82 ) in a seperate post is the rare one and likely only issued for a short time in the last part of the 19th century. We only know of a couple of these. We have one and Joe, we think, has one. Maybe a few others around but..........
Someone referred to Mrs Robinson's book - indeed she only discussed and pictured 81 backs and clearly was unaware of the Oak Leaf at the time of writing in the 1950's.

More info from Judy. She reminded me that it was Gene Hochman who found the first deck known as Oak Leaf which he sold to us. There was no box but it was a very early Bicycle and at that time the back names were not put on the boxes. We have never seen it listed in a catalogue or sample folder/book so no name can be attributed to it by USPC who do not have it themselves in their archives/collection. It was Gene Hochman who decided to call it "Oak Leaf " because of its appearance. Therefore what USPC called Oak Leaf in the 1940's was not the same back as what is now considered #82 Oak Leaf. Finally, what Mrs Robinson called Leaf may well have really been what USPC called Oak Leaf in the 1940's. A mystery and we have some ideas for further detective work on this intriguing question.

As promised here is a scan of the original Bicycle deck that was named Oak Leaf by Gene Hochman. This is the first Bicycle Ace and Joker and the deck is 1885-89. It is US8a in Hochman Encyclopedia.

[Josh Blackmon]

That is some next level stuff there. I hope to one day own a single deck that is half as impressive as this.

[52plusjoker]

Taylor… Glad to see you join here… Didn't know that was you… Why does everyone keep changing up their screen names or was it UC or eBay I knew you from?  Anyways… Good to see you posting here…

Tom… So what's the verdict?  Have you ever seen a Bicycle Deck appear without the Bicycle AoS or Bicycle Joker?

Neither Judy or I have ever seen a Bicycle deck with a generic Ace or Joker. As the Leaf back seems to have been called Oak Leaf by USPC in their 1940-50 period Bicycle decks, it is from our view, based on what we have seen, an Uncle Sam/generic deck in a Bicycle box with the same back.
More on this tomorrow.

Latest information and my last post on this subject. Email from an eminent Bicycle collector
"based on my experience, the Oak Leaf deck did indeed come with the generic Uncle Sam ace and joker in a Bicycle box. I also have two MS Oak Leaf decks that I might steam open to see if I can provide any more information. I also have a US8c joker and a US8c pinochle deck. I don't know why Mrs. Robinson called this deck simply "Leaf" as I have never seen any evidence that it was ever called anything other than "Oak Leaf" by USPCC"

[CardConjurer]

I've seen this situation before! Last year I purchased a deck off eBay with the same Bicycle oak leaf box pictured above. The auction did not display the AoS or jokers only the box and a stack of cards. Upon receiving the item I opened it to find cards with the correct back but with this same non bicycle ace and same joker as above. I immediately sent it back to the seller for a refund.  Wish I could still pull up the eBay transaction but it is long gone.

Maybe there is more of a possibility that these two decks were in-fact in the correct boxes. Does anyone here own a Bicycle Oak Leaf c. 1940's deck with a Bicycle ace of spades?

[jmrock]

Taylor… Glad to see you join here… Didn't know that was you… Why does everyone keep changing up their screen names or was it UC or eBay I knew you from?  Anyways… Good to see you posting here…

Tom… So what's the verdict?  Have you ever seen a Bicycle Deck appear without the Bicycle AoS or Bicycle Joker?

Neither Judy or I have ever seen a Bicycle deck with a generic Ace or Joker. As the Leaf back seems to have been called Oak Leaf by USPC in their 1940-50 period Bicycle decks, it is from our view, based on what we have seen, an Uncle Sam/generic deck in a Bicycle box with the same back.
More on this tomorrow.

Latest information and my last post on this topic. Email from an eminent Bicycle collector
"based on my experience, the Oak Leaf deck did indeed come with the generic Uncle Sam ace and joker in a Bicycle box. I also have two MS Oak Leaf decks that I might steam open to see if I can provide any more information. I also have a US8c joker and a US8c pinochle deck. I don't know why Mrs. Robinson called this deck simply "Leaf" as I have never seen any evidence that it was ever called anything other than "Oak Leaf" by USPCC"

The plot thickens… Wow… So after all of this, you're saying this could actually be a legitimate deck??? I don't know how I feel about this… Perhaps consulting a few more veteran collectors… I don't see why they'd ever print such a deck without the Bicycle Joker or Ace of Spades, when this is indeed a "Bicycle" deck… Not buying it… I think the checks and balances system, albeit now more advanced, wouldn't have allowed this…

[Don Boyer]

The plot thickens… Wow… So after all of this, you're saying this could actually be a legitimate deck??? I don't know how I feel about this… Perhaps consulting a few more veteran collectors… I don't see why they'd ever print such a deck without the Bicycle Joker or Ace of Spades, when this is indeed a "Bicycle" deck… Not buying it… I think the checks and balances system, albeit now more advanced, wouldn't have allowed this…

It's not as far-fetched as it may sound.

I'm sure you recall when USPC moved from Cincinnati to the suburb of Erlanger.  At the time, USPC still had a lot of left-over, printed-but-unused deck boxes for their major brands that were labeled with the Cincinnati address on the side.  Rather than recycle them, they opted to use them and switched the deck seal from blue or red to black.

Flash back to circa 1950 (and bear in mind this is another of my famous educated guesses).  The Uncle Sam deck is being phased out, but they still have plenty of uncut sheets printed, or perhaps some hundreds or thousands of assembled decks - cards were mighty popular in the population in general and among the military in particular, so it stands to reason they might end up in such a situation when the brand was no longer being ordered by the government for their troops.  Back then, they didn't even recycle - they would have ended up in a trash bin or a furnace.  They probably couldn't sell them in the Uncle Sam boxes - they're marked as tax-free and for government use, and maybe something in their contract prohibited civilian sales under the Uncle Sam brand name.  Rather than waste them, they print up Bicycle boxes with the same back, stuff them with Uncle Sams and sell them until they're gone.

It's entirely possible that they would have continued using the back under the Bicycle brand name with actual Bicycle playing cards since that design was so familiar to the WW2 vets who used them in wartime under the Uncle Sam name.  It would be similar to the reason why Irish whisky got displaced by Scotch whiskey as the most popular spirits among most American men at about the same time - before the war, Scotch distillers didn't muscle their way into the American market going up against Irish whisky, choosing to focus on Europe.  American soldiers stationed there acquired a taste for the drink and started buying it in large numbers when they went back home.

Again, it's educated guesswork - except for the part about the whiskeys, which I learned on the History Channel.  And of course, the part about Erlanger, which is common knowledge around here.

[jmrock]

Again, it's educated guesswork - except for the part about the whiskeys, which I learned on the History Channel.  And of course, the part about Erlanger, which is common knowledge around here.

All educated guesswork - Come now Don… You can share with us that you learned about the whiskey the old fashioned way… glass by glass… (Which isn't a bad idea right now considering it feels like -5 degrees right now)…

[Don Boyer]

Again, it's educated guesswork - except for the part about the whiskeys, which I learned on the History Channel.  And of course, the part about Erlanger, which is common knowledge around here.

All educated guesswork - Come now Don… You can share with us that you learned about the whiskey the old fashioned way… glass by glass… (Which isn't a bad idea right now considering it feels like -5 degrees right now)…

That may have been true once, but I haven't had a drink since May 11th, 2007.  I'm on a life-saving medication that prohibits me from drinking alcohol.  It's a shame, though - I've probably forgotten more about alcohol than most people will ever learn!

[Pip Nosher]

Greetings, all. I am the collector Tom quoted a few posts earlier. I can add some more information now. I do have a Bicycle US8e joker with the 1940's "Oak Leaf" back design, pictured below, which proves that this deck was issued as a standard Bicycle deck, not just the Uncle Sam version. But I have seen the Uncle Sam ace and joker in a Bicycle box enough times to be quite certain that it was issued that way. USPCC was probably getting rid of leftover WWII inventory and decided to rebrand the back as "Bicycle." I also have some additional information about this back design that may only cause further confusion, but I think it's interesting. Some years ago I purchased a tattered old album of card backs and drawings that appeared to be a record of designs for card backs from the Consolidated Card Co. They were all seemingly randomly pasted in the album, but when I sorted them out I discovered that the drawings almost always corresponded to finished back designs. One of these designs is what we now know as the 1940's USPCC Oak Leaf back. There were two cards included that matched the design, one with a red back, and one with a blue on blue design. The red back is a blank card. The top two backs in the photo are USPCC, the bottom two are CCC. The next image is the CCC sketch. Finally, a comparison between the two versions of the back also reveals some interesting variation in the details (CCC on left, USPCC on right). - Joseph    P.S. - Note that the sketch is dated May 16 '97 in the lower margin.

[52plusjoker]

Great post. Seems to answer the questions for once and for all. Thanks Pip. Even if sketched in 1897, may not have gotten into production until 1920-30. Is it possible someone wrote that date in 1997?

[athomas16]

What a great thread.  So glad 52+J found this place.

[52plusjoker]

Thanks!  So much for us all to learn. Just read the latest post by Pip Nosher on Stage, Movie decks and learned things I didn't know. We'll keep the info flowing as best we can.

[skinny]

This was the first thread I saw on PCF. I was introduced to the site by googling Oak Leaf Back. I think the authenticity issue is behind us now, but I'll throw a quick pic of mine anyway.

I've got the generic "Uncle Sam" version of the Oak Leaf Back deck. Date code G, 1945 assumed. 52+J+EJ+bridge card.

Do these come up much? Do I have a chance of upgrading?

[Don Boyer]

This was the first thread I saw on PCF. I was introduced to the site by googling Oak Leaf Back. I think the authenticity issue is behind us now, but I'll throw a quick pic of mine anyway.

I've got the generic "Uncle Sam" version of the Oak Leaf Back deck. Date code G, 1945 assumed. 52+J+EJ+bridge card.

Do these come up much? Do I have a chance of upgrading?

It's stated earlier in this topic that the Bicycle Oak Leaf back is one of the rarest they made.  While nothing's impossible and I'm sure eventually someone's going to want to sell one or two, I wouldn't be holding my breath on it to show up any time soon, nor would I be hopeful of getting it at a bargain price.

Long story short, you're lucky to have the one you have now! 

[Pip Nosher]

Just to clarify, the back that Gene Hochman called "Oak Leaf" is the 1880's US8a issue that is extremely hard to find (pictured at the top of this thread by JMRock and later with the joker and ace of spades by Tom). The Oak Leaf that most collectors have in their collection is the more common deck that Mrs. Robinson erroneously called "Leaf"  (pictured in many variations, above). It is always called "Oak Leaf" on the box and in promotional materials. I will, as promised, finally steam open my two sealed "Oak Leaf" decks and report back on whether they have the generic "Uncle Sam" ace of spades and joker, or the Bicycle version.

If it were up to me, I would hereafter call the earlier Bicycle deck with the oak leaf motif "Leaf," and call the newer one "Oak Leaf" to help avoid at least that aspect of the confusion about these decks. As long as I am annoying the spirit of one great playing card scholar (Gene Hochman), I might as well annoy two (Ruth Robinson). I'll start by making the change on my website: www.bicyclecards.org .

[Calvingrace]

Do you guys really all not know about uspcc packing extra uncle Sam decks into bicycle oak leaf back boxes? This is 100 % authentic. All I had to do was go to uspcc site and look up the oak leaf back and it explains this EXACT scenario of collectors becoming confused because they packed uncle Sam decks into bicycle boxes, that's why u see the uncle sam ace and jokers. Funny how that lady said "uspcc would NEVER put ANYTHING in a bicycle box except a bicycle deck" lol

[Pip Nosher]

Greetings, and welcome to this thread, @Calvingrace. A quick search confirms what I thought: the official USPCC website (bicyclecards.com) does not address this issue. I do, however, address this issue thoroughly and definitively on my website,  www.bicyclecards.org which you can see by clicking on #36 on the home page.

To recap: I own two mint sealed Bicycle Oak Leaf decks, one red and one blue. I steamed them both open and found that the red deck had the Bicycle trademark ace of spades and joker, and the blue deck had the generic "Uncle Sam" ace and joker, providing definitive proof that the generic ace and joker were indeed packaged in Bicycle boxes.

I think it's also pertinent to note that my last post, above, was written in 2015 (web address edited today), so all the people that did not know the answer to this question had a very good reason: they posted their queries well before I provided the answer on my website, some time in 2016. Cheers, and happy collecting!
 

[Chuqii]

Since is the definitive Oak Leaf thread, I thought I would throw this in and see if anyone had information about this NYCCC Oak Leaf joker I just picked up.  Anyone?

[Don Boyer]

Since is the definitive Oak Leaf thread, I thought I would throw this in and see if anyone had information about this NYCCC Oak Leaf joker I just picked up.  Anyone?

Well, NYCCC was founded in 1871, USPC came into being in 1885, bought NYCCC in 1894, merged it into Consolidated-Dougherty in 1930, then finally absorbed its brands into the parent company in 1962.  Do you know what year that joker is from?  It can't really be older than 1930 (or younger than 1871) if it's indeed an NYCCC joker and not a C-D joker or a USPC joker.

[Chuqii]

Scanning back up the thread I see that Pip Nosher already covered a bit of this back on Jan 29, 2014.  I can confirm that this was an NYCCC back before it was a USPC back.  Below is a page from my 1922 Hoyle's Rules for Card Games published by NYCCC.  Shows this oak leaf back was Bee Back No. 154, and who knows where else NYCCC used it.  12-28-2020 - Updated with pic of Bee 154 box