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Smoke and Mirrors v7

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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #350 on: December 11, 2012, 02:38:31 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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They got a wierd smell but will sure go away after some time.

All USPC finishes have a distinctive smell.  I can tell when a deck is coated in Magic Finish just from the smell - it tends to be a bit stronger.

I was starting to get very tempted to buy these but in the end I found that it would be more fulfilling to get the originals. My reason being that they are rarer and have a lot more charisma and history to them.
In a few years to come, these will turn rarer and have a much history to the too. Factoring in the custom seals, signatures and the custom box, I think they are definitely worth the price. What you are paying for is guaranteed quality.

"Turn rarer"?  Are you planning to destroy a lot of the v1-6 decks sometime soon?

If by "have a much history to the too" you actually meant "have AS much history to THEM, too", I have reservations about that.  The originals had better court cards and the earliest decks were made at the Cincinnati plant on good quality stock.

Factoring in...

...the seals.  Meh.  It's just a sticker.  The trend used to be for no deck seals, now it's for custom deck seals - and in a year, it'll probably be something else, not unlike the trend for black decks.  People couldn't get enough of them when they came out.  Now they're somewhat quaint, especially since people know they show edge damage more rapidly...

...the signatures.  It's not like D&D never signed anything up 'til now.
...custom box.  It's more of a curiosity, though it might make the set worth a little something extra, particularly when factoring in the serial numbers.

...worth the price.  Let's break it down - $85 for six packs of cards.  That's just over $14 a pack.  For a new deck, that doesn't sound like a huge value to me.  The originals were what, $8 a pack when they came out?  $7?

...guaranteed quality.  Practically any custom deck coming out of Kentucky today is a quality deck - that's not really a distinction these days; it doesn't make the deck stand out head-and-shoulders above any other custom USPC deck.

The one and only factor that these have going for them as a valuable asset in the future is that they made 10,000 sets - the early decks were short runs, but by the time v6 came out, they were printing about 20-30K per print run (and the S&M decks had only one print run each).  But scarcity doesn't add up to higher future price.  There were more Bicycle Centurion decks in white made (about 1,100) than there were white Bicycle Gold Seal New Fan Backs (only 1,000).  But I have never seen a White Centurion going for less than the Gold Seal NFBs at auction or retail - usually they're more expensive by a multiple.  There were 5,000 Bicycle Black Ghost 1st Edition decks made and even they sell for more than the white Gold Seal NFBs.  It doesn't make that deck any less or more scarce - it's just not where the market is focused.

This boxed set is not a reprinting - it's an homage to the originals.  But as such, it's more of a pale shadow when compared with them.  Don't count on them becoming more valuable than the originals in your lifetime.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 02:42:53 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #351 on: December 11, 2012, 05:54:07 AM »
 

Siegismyname

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They would definitely not cost as much as the original but the reason I think they have not sold out yet is because they cost slightly more than the average deck which is actually good for the aftermarket as the inflation would not be as much during the initial phase when they have not sold out but no one really knows what will happen after they sell out (if u know what I am saying).

As for the quality, I reckon that the smoke and mirrors just have this this distinct feel that packets stay together during aeriel cuts but the deck still fans nicely.
 

Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #352 on: December 11, 2012, 06:13:28 AM »
 

Joker and the Thief

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Don, they were all $5.95 each.
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #353 on: December 11, 2012, 08:06:58 AM »
 

Knobz1

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Don, they were all $5.95 each.
I was just gonna mention that.   Cant beat 2 bricks of S&M V1's at $5.95 a deck.   :bosswalk:
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #354 on: December 11, 2012, 11:28:39 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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They would definitely not cost as much as the original but the reason I think they have not sold out yet is because they cost slightly more than the average deck which is actually good for the aftermarket as the inflation would not be as much during the initial phase when they have not sold out but no one really knows what will happen after they sell out (if u know what I am saying).

As for the quality, I reckon that the smoke and mirrors just have this this distinct feel that packets stay together during aeriel cuts but the deck still fans nicely.


Original, or "new car smell"?


Look at it like this.  S&M v1-3 were like fine works of music.  S&M v4-6 were like remixes - not as good, but still retaining some of that charm.  S&M v7 is the bastard child of the wedding band and the karaoke machine - a pale imitation.


Mind you, this is strictly from the perspective of DESIGN.


Performance-wise, the v7s are probably coated in Magic Finish since it became the USPC default for custom decks.  They used to charge extra for it, or you got it free if you were making a deck with one of their name brands.  Now, you get it free and you actually have to request the original finish if you want it on your deck!  D&D have always been mum about the specifics of their stock and finish, but since we all know there's not much left to choose from these days, we have a pretty good idea of what they're using.


Don, they were all $5.95 each.


...which makes $14 imitations look all the more ridiculous.
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #355 on: December 11, 2012, 04:38:11 PM »
 

Joker and the Thief

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Thing is, handling. I have not handled these but by the sound of it the may have buggered it up with metallic ink. I've heard good things about the handling, but nothing really from Cardists. I congratulate the twins for a decent finale for their famed cards and I LOVE the originals, like absolutely LOVE (top ten decks love). I think the simplification process was a little confused. One of my pet hates with these cards is the standard court cards recoloured and the pips! Why on God's Green Earth would they make the pips different colour to what they're supposed to be? That's like Magic Makers *shiver. Denim has baby blue instead of the red pips WTF! One of the key points to the cards are the simplified court cards, and they simplified them by un-simplifying? Odd.
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #356 on: December 11, 2012, 04:50:21 PM »
 

Russell CircleCityCards

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I have not handled these but by the sound of it the may have buggered it up with metallic ink.



« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 04:55:41 PM by Russell CircleCityCards »
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #357 on: December 11, 2012, 06:21:47 PM »
 

Gunshy1

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lol all the ink is fine. the edges are shit out of the box and they take quite some time to break in. after that period they feel just like every other custom deck because every custom deck feels the same practically.
have you heard the word???
 

Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #358 on: December 11, 2012, 10:40:24 PM »
 

Joker and the Thief

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I have not handled these but by the sound of it the may have buggered it up with metallic ink.




Haha what? I don't like metallic ink on my playing cards ;)
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #359 on: December 12, 2012, 01:20:54 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Thing is, handling. I have not handled these but by the sound of it the may have buggered it up with metallic ink. I've heard good things about the handling, but nothing really from Cardists. I congratulate the twins for a decent finale for their famed cards and I LOVE the originals, like absolutely LOVE (top ten decks love). I think the simplification process was a little confused. One of my pet hates with these cards is the standard court cards recoloured and the pips! Why on God's Green Earth would they make the pips different colour to what they're supposed to be? That's like Magic Makers *shiver. Denim has baby blue instead of the red pips WTF! One of the key points to the cards are the simplified court cards, and they simplified them by un-simplifying? Odd.

Metallic ink stopped being an issue when USPC started offering Magic Finish.  Magic Finish has been the default for USPC Custom for several months now.

Cardists are likely not commenting much because they already own or prefer the originals, or simply don't own these.

Altered colors on pips are an ancient and popular idea - get over it!  At least they aren't using four different colors (atchoo - I have a FLOWERS allergy) or two nearly identically-colored pip sets (coughPURPLEcoughARTIFICEcough) or completely custom pips that don't correspond to the traditional ones (there goes that FLOWERS allergy again)...

The originals had the real simplified (and yet more interesting) courts.  These are just bog standard.  Aside from the flashy colors, that is.

I have not handled these but by the sound of it the may have buggered it up with metallic ink.




Haha what? I don't like metallic ink on my playing cards ;)

That's different than saying that the handling is terrible.  One is a statement of fact while the other is a personal preference.

Commenting on the handling of a deck you never handled is about as brilliant as all the Bible-thumping religious folks here in the States who will protest a book they have never read or a movie they have never seen based on what someone else told them about it - and not some divine entity, just another flawed human like themselves who happens to be a religious authority of some sort.  And even that person has likely not read the book or seen the movie - they just heard about it from someone else...

And "the sound of it" doesn't exactly hold up as a criteria by which to judge handling.  All you can state about that is what SOMEONE ELSE said about the handling, someone who also may have no first-hand knowledge of the deck or who is a terrible judge of a deck's handling.  But you also state that you've heard good things about the handling, so you haven't really presented anything that supports that statement about buggered-up handling.
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #360 on: December 12, 2012, 02:25:19 AM »
 

Joker and the Thief

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Thing is, handling. I have not handled these but by the sound of it the may have buggered it up with metallic ink. I've heard good things about the handling, but nothing really from Cardists. I congratulate the twins for a decent finale for their famed cards and I LOVE the originals, like absolutely LOVE (top ten decks love). I think the simplification process was a little confused. One of my pet hates with these cards is the standard court cards recoloured and the pips! Why on God's Green Earth would they make the pips different colour to what they're supposed to be? That's like Magic Makers *shiver. Denim has baby blue instead of the red pips WTF! One of the key points to the cards are the simplified court cards, and they simplified them by un-simplifying? Odd.

Metallic ink stopped being an issue when USPC started offering Magic Finish.  Magic Finish has been the default for USPC Custom for several months now.

Cardists are likely not commenting much because they already own or prefer the originals, or simply don't own these.

Altered colors on pips are an ancient and popular idea - get over it!  At least they aren't using four different colors (atchoo - I have a FLOWERS allergy) or two nearly identically-colored pip sets (coughPURPLEcoughARTIFICEcough) or completely custom pips that don't correspond to the traditional ones (there goes that FLOWERS allergy again)...

The originals had the real simplified (and yet more interesting) courts.  These are just bog standard.  Aside from the flashy colors, that is.

I have not handled these but by the sound of it the may have buggered it up with metallic ink.




Haha what? I don't like metallic ink on my playing cards ;)

That's different than saying that the handling is terrible.  One is a statement of fact while the other is a personal preference.

Commenting on the handling of a deck you never handled is about as brilliant as all the Bible-thumping religious folks here in the States who will protest a book they have never read or a movie they have never seen based on what someone else told them about it - and not some divine entity, just another flawed human like themselves who happens to be a religious authority of some sort.  And even that person has likely not read the book or seen the movie - they just heard about it from someone else...

And "the sound of it" doesn't exactly hold up as a criteria by which to judge handling.  All you can state about that is what SOMEONE ELSE said about the handling, someone who also may have no first-hand knowledge of the deck or who is a terrible judge of a deck's handling.  But you also state that you've heard good things about the handling, so you haven't really presented anything that supports that statement about buggered-up handling.

Alrighty. If a deck has metallic ink it will more than likely have magic finish, you even stated that. Thing is, I don't really like magic finish and that means that the handling alters and is unattractive to me. Yes, factors change when using magic finish but I'm still firm on believing that certain combinations lead to bad handling, this MIGHT, I repeat, MIGHT, be the case with Dan and Dave's V7  It's called making an assumption based on the experience of using other magic finish decks. I'm not saying that these have bad handling, I'm simply saying that they MAY have altered the famed handling of the originals through the use of metallic inks, hence magic finish in the v7 decks.

As for recoloured pips and courts, Dan and Dave made a very sudden change and it's unlike them and when it happens it is rare when it does. It's something subjective, and not something that I like. It may be true to say that we're sick of hearing that you won't buy Dan and Dave's playing cards. Get over it, bro.
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #361 on: December 12, 2012, 03:03:20 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Alrighty. If a deck has metallic ink it will more than likely have magic finish, you even stated that. Thing is, I don't really like magic finish and that means that the handling alters and is unattractive to me. Yes, factors change when using magic finish but I'm still firm on believing that certain combinations lead to bad handling, this MIGHT, I repeat, MIGHT, be the case with Dan and Dave's V7  It's called making an assumption based on the experience of using other magic finish decks. I'm not saying that these have bad handling, I'm simply saying that they MAY have altered the famed handling of the originals through the use of metallic inks, hence magic finish in the v7 decks.

As for recoloured pips and courts, Dan and Dave made a very sudden change and it's unlike them and when it happens it is rare when it does. It's something subjective, and not something that I like. It may be true to say that we're sick of hearing that you won't buy Dan and Dave's playing cards. Get over it, bro.

As far as Magic Finish, I know it's not perfect for all occasions but it certainly puts you squarely in the minority.  For whatever that's worth.

As far as the pips - it is what it is.  They were probably concerned about collectors freaking out that the v7 "imitation" decks would be too close to the real thing.  This way, they're nothing like the real thing (and thus lies the problem...)

As far as me not buying their decks - I'm long over it now.  If they come out with a deck that to me is a real original and both well-designed and well-made, I'd be foolish not to buy.  But for now, my resources are limited and D&D aren't the only decks I've opted not to purchase as a result.  I don't see anything on the horizon coming from them that would convince me to buy their decks again - but I also can't see EVERYTHING that's on the other side of that horizon, now can I?  :))

So, we're all good here?
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #362 on: December 12, 2012, 03:44:16 AM »
 

Joker and the Thief

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Alrighty. If a deck has metallic ink it will more than likely have magic finish, you even stated that. Thing is, I don't really like magic finish and that means that the handling alters and is unattractive to me. Yes, factors change when using magic finish but I'm still firm on believing that certain combinations lead to bad handling, this MIGHT, I repeat, MIGHT, be the case with Dan and Dave's V7  It's called making an assumption based on the experience of using other magic finish decks. I'm not saying that these have bad handling, I'm simply saying that they MAY have altered the famed handling of the originals through the use of metallic inks, hence magic finish in the v7 decks.

As for recoloured pips and courts, Dan and Dave made a very sudden change and it's unlike them and when it happens it is rare when it does. It's something subjective, and not something that I like. It may be true to say that we're sick of hearing that you won't buy Dan and Dave's playing cards. Get over it, bro.

As far as Magic Finish, I know it's not perfect for all occasions but it certainly puts you squarely in the minority.  For whatever that's worth.

As far as the pips - it is what it is.  They were probably concerned about collectors freaking out that the v7 "imitation" decks would be too close to the real thing.  This way, they're nothing like the real thing (and thus lies the problem...)

As far as me not buying their decks - I'm long over it now.  If they come out with a deck that to me is a real original and both well-designed and well-made, I'd be foolish not to buy.  But for now, my resources are limited and D&D aren't the only decks I've opted not to purchase as a result.  I don't see anything on the horizon coming from them that would convince me to buy their decks again - but I also can't see EVERYTHING that's on the other side of that horizon, now can I?  :))

So, we're all good here?

I guess we are :))
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #363 on: February 08, 2013, 11:20:07 PM »
 

Michael

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Indivial decks from the V7 box set now for sale for $7.95 each! Except the carbon edition....

http://shop.dananddave.com/smoke-and-mirrors-602.html

A new box set of just carbons (called Carbon Copy holding 6 carbon decks a box) are also on sale though!

http://shop.dananddave.com/smoke-and-mirrors-carbon-copy.html

Told myself I wouldn't buy any so we will see how strong my will power is in a day :D The thing is, these don't have anything the originals have that initially attracted me (other than the back design but even that has been slightly changed).

Oh but if you do order today you can get 15% off your order with the discount code "CARBON".
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 11:33:03 PM by Michael »
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #364 on: February 08, 2013, 11:44:09 PM »
 

Magic_Orthodoxy

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6 decks at 8 bucks a pop is $48 and the box set cost $85, that means the box plus deck 7 together cost $37? Man, I feel ripped off

it's a cool box though.... right? guys? anyone.....?
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #365 on: February 08, 2013, 11:47:44 PM »
 

Michael

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6 decks at 8 bucks a pop is $48 and the box set cost $85, that means the box plus deck 7 together cost $37? Man, I feel ripped off

it's a cool box though.... right? guys? anyone.....?

Yeah cool box for sure. It is a collector's item of some sorts as well. You also can't purchase the carbon deck unfortunately. So $37 for a fancy box as the carbon deck.... Don't think I'd pay that much. Still hate the fact that they didn't simplify the courts for all of these new releases :(
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #366 on: February 09, 2013, 02:35:11 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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6 decks at 8 bucks a pop is $48 and the box set cost $85, that means the box plus deck 7 together cost $37? Man, I feel ripped off

it's a cool box though.... right? guys? anyone.....?

Yeah cool box for sure. It is a collector's item of some sorts as well. You also can't purchase the carbon deck unfortunately. So $37 for a fancy box as the carbon deck.... Don't think I'd pay that much. Still hate the fact that they didn't simplify the courts for all of these new releases :(

Hate is a strong word, but there's a lot to dislike about the entire V7 run of decks.

Here's what's irking me about this "new" release.  A single deck of any of the reprints is $7.95.  Fine, whatever.  The one original deck, Carbon, can't be bought individually, only as part of either the regular boxed set ($84.95) or in a box filled with a half-brick of them for $77.70, or $12.95 a pack (yikes).  Are they really five dollars more special than the other decks, which were a bit underwhelming to begin with?  I don't think so.
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #367 on: February 09, 2013, 02:54:14 AM »
 

Gunshy1

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seriously, DnD need to let the S&M series of decks just be done.

are they every going to come out with another magic and cardistry DVD? or is their new business model to sell deck after deck after deck after deck after deck after deck after deck after deck after deck........ after deck.....
have you heard the word???
 

Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #368 on: February 09, 2013, 03:29:05 AM »
 

Michael

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6 decks at 8 bucks a pop is $48 and the box set cost $85, that means the box plus deck 7 together cost $37? Man, I feel ripped off

it's a cool box though.... right? guys? anyone.....?

Yeah cool box for sure. It is a collector's item of some sorts as well. You also can't purchase the carbon deck unfortunately. So $37 for a fancy box as the carbon deck.... Don't think I'd pay that much. Still hate the fact that they didn't simplify the courts for all of these new releases :(

Hate is a strong word, but there's a lot to dislike about the entire V7 run of decks.

Here's what's irking me about this "new" release.  A single deck of any of the reprints is $7.95.  Fine, whatever.  The one original deck, Carbon, can't be bought individually, only as part of either the regular boxed set ($84.95) or in a box filled with a half-brick of them for $77.70, or $12.95 a pack (yikes).  Are they really five dollars more special than the other decks, which were a bit underwhelming to begin with?  I don't think so.

Hey, I truly do feel very strongly against the standard courts because the courts were the only reason, other than the backs, that I liked this deck. So maybe not hate? But really really really dislike :D
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #369 on: February 09, 2013, 03:58:21 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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seriously, DnD need to let the S&M series of decks just be done.

are they every going to come out with another magic and cardistry DVD? or is their new business model to sell deck after deck after deck after deck after deck after deck after deck after deck after deck........ after deck.....

Hey, let's not forget bottle openers, t-shirts, book shelves, hand lotions...  I half-expect them to soon be renamed "Dan, Dave and Beyond"...  :))  I gotta admit, though, the lotion was pretty good stuff.  I actually did searches in the LA area for "Fulton's Apothecary" before realizing who Brad Fulton was...
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #370 on: February 09, 2013, 08:18:32 AM »
 

Magic_Orthodoxy

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uh and let's not forget they released an iphone app this weekend, like em or not - they are taking our hobby into the future, a place quite frankly the rest of the world has been too timid and too reluctant to go to.

I only have Smoke and Mirrors 1 and 2. I missed the boat on all the rest, so when the box set came out  - I thought "here is my chance!" So I shelled out the big bucks. I love these cards actually. My name is "David" so a deck with two D's on it works great for me.

But I think the box wasn't selling like they'd hoped - so now they need to move product and they are piecemealing these decks individually.

Personally, I love the v7 deck
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #371 on: February 09, 2013, 10:16:41 AM »
 

blastercast

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I must say I love my v7 box set :')
For those who didn't get the originals it's a great collectors item, as for the carbon copy box I have got one on the way because I entered the trailer competition :') I'm a bit aannoyed they are now selling the decks individually but that means I can get more of the "smoke" and the "mirror" decks
-Benny
"...there is a fine line between wishing to produce child-like astonishment and treating people like infants."
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Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #372 on: February 09, 2013, 01:39:16 PM »
 

Card Player

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I must say I love my v7 box set :')
For those who didn't get the originals it's a great collectors item, as for the carbon copy box I have got one on the way because I entered the trailer competition :') I'm a bit aannoyed they are now selling the decks individually but that means I can get more of the "smoke" and the "mirror" decks
-Benny

It all worked out for me. I never had any of the original smoke and mirrors. As you wrote, the Deluxe Box Set is great for me. I own 2 deluxe boxes, both are still sealed and that gives me all of the decks. So, I have no need to buy a Carbon Copy or an Individual deck now.

From a business standpoint I think the way D&D is releasing the Carbon Copy and the Individual decks is strategic genius. I know there were those that did not want to buy an entire Deluxe Box just to get the Carbon decks. Now they can have just Carbon decks but they have to pay for that privilege. So what do you do? Do pay more for the Deluxe and get all the decks or pay $10 less to get 6 Carbon decks. For those that want the Individual decks, sorry no Carbon. They are ONLY for box sets. Those that bought a Deluxe Set at first because you wanted Carbon, can you really be angry? Probably Not or at least I'm not. I like the fact that the individual decks will not have the seal that comes with the Deluxe Box decks. This means the decks come factory sealed in cellophane.

What I have problem with is the 777 Carbon Copy sets and a v7 price to match? Why not 1000 sets at 59.95 or something like that? D&D would still make the money on the extra limited sets while reducing the cost to customers.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 08:00:57 PM by Legacy »
 

Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #373 on: February 09, 2013, 03:01:13 PM »
 

hecrob

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Im done buying from them... This just made me mad...   :mindf-ck:

Form Follows Function
 

Re: Smoke and Mirrors v7
« Reply #374 on: February 09, 2013, 03:17:16 PM »
 

Michael

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I must say I love my v7 box set :')
For those who didn't get the originals it's a great collectors item, as for the carbon copy box I have got one on the way because I entered the trailer competition :') I'm a bit aannoyed they are now selling the decks individually but that means I can get more of the "smoke" and the "mirror" decks
-Benny

Which means that if you bought just one box set and entered the contest you got 12 decks for $85.... Which actually isn't the worst deal we've seen and for how much these decks can possibly resell for is a great deal. Obviously no one knew that they would just give out a Carbon Copy just for entering the contest. Even if I knew I doubt I would've bought the set and filmed a promo. So although I am envious that I can't get a free Carbon Copy, I'm not terribly distraught.

Im done buying from them... This just made me mad...   :mindf-ck:

Because they're selling them individually and you dished out for a box set? I could understand why but due to the difference in seal (perforated and not) there is a distinct difference. If you wanted to sell off your box collection it could go for higher based on that point (as long as someone is willing to pay for it). And if you just wanted to keep them, this would allow you to at least play with some of the different versions in the V7 box set and not ruin the collection.

Sucks that people paid significantly more for having them first and getting a fancy box and carbon deck but they were willing to pay for it. I don't see how this business strategy is that maddening, to be honest.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 03:18:05 PM by Michael »
"The magician takes the ordinary something and makes it do something extraordinary. Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it, because of course you're not really looking. You don't really want to know. You want to be fooled."