Kickstarter and "Limited Editions"

[DarkDerp]

I initially backed it but pulled out because I had a problem with the way limited edition was used. 

ADMIN NOTE: this thread was originally part of a topic on Jackson Robinson's "Independence" playing card project on Kickstarter.  From this point forward it took a long but important tangent away from the topic so I made the executive decision to create a new topic for the tangent.

[bhong]

I initially backed it but pulled out because I had a problem with the way limited edition was used.

I'm curious, but what problem did you have with the way the limited editions were being used?

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

I initially backed it but pulled out because I had a problem with the way limited edition was used.

I'm curious, but what problem did you have with the way the limited editions were being used?

I think he means the "term" limited edition. Some backers are claiming that the "limited editions" are not actually "limited"

[Sher143]

I initially backed it but pulled out because I had a problem with the way limited edition was used.

I'm curious, but what problem did you have with the way the limited editions were being used?

I think he means the "term" limited edition. Some backers are claiming that the "limited editions" are not actually "limited"

I don't understand how they're not actually "limited." Please explain.

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

I don't understand how they're not actually "limited." Please explain.

Me neither, I think it's dumb, Jackson can call his decks whatever he wants - he designed em!

[John B.]

I initially backed it but pulled out because I had a problem with the way limited edition was used.

I'm curious, but what problem did you have with the way the limited editions were being used?

I think he means the "term" limited edition. Some backers are claiming that the "limited editions" are not actually "limited"

I don't understand how they're not actually "limited." Please explain.

Probably in the fact that he had a certain amount in the pledges available and then added more, increasing the amount available. That would be my best guess.

[bamabenz]

Limited in the fact that there will only be 1000 distributed (can't say printed because you have to overprint to make sure you get the amount you desire). Who cares if he decides to sell them as singles, doubles or bricks -- or changes the mix as he reacts to what folks want most? Or if he sells most on KS or through his website? Or if he releases batches throughout the campaign?

The really interesting question is what he does with what's left over -- the Fed 52 black forcing deck was a great idea.

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

agreed - technically all kickstarter decks are "limited" in that most of them are never printed again. An "unlimited" run means that the creator continues to have them printed as demanded.

[Rob Wright]

agreed - technically all kickstarter decks are "limited" in that most of them are never printed again. An "unlimited" run means that the creator continues to have them printed as demanded.

True, but a max off 1,000, with no option of ever printing again does make them more limited. Jackson has always been upfront about his intentions. USPCC does have an over/under run of 10%. If only 900 are spoken for, and he orders 1,000. He may only get 900.

[DarkDerp]

I have a lot of  respect for Mr Robinson. His work shows an incredible amount of effort and ability. This is not something he started  but it is a trend that when used I on principal do not back. I have no quarrel with the term limited edition being used. I have a problem with it being printed and sold on kick starter. Mass produced products  should be offered as add ons if used at all as a higher tier.


Limited Editions are used to create demand.  Take the demand you have and under supply it. This artificially creates a high demand which can be used to create an even higher demand and visibility (a feeding frenzy  is hard to miss). A  much higher price can now be justified not only because of the  exclusiveness but the appearance that a purchase is also an investment.

I have no problem with Limited editions, or the method of using them. I also have no problem with the higher level tiers having less backing slots. My problem is when a reward for the top tier isn’t something with a higher intrinsic value or personal connection with the project. The use of a limited edition to me feels wrong. When the top tier is in fact a separate mass produced product whose higher backing amount is being justified by a artificially created demand I feel it has no place on kick starter.  The extra revenue it generates is completely standing on the shoulders of the lower tiers. As a separate project many limited editions would fail due to price.Many wouldn't sell in the  real world market at the price. I have a problem when the tool that brought together a community to share and believe in an artists vision are turned around and used to limit the communities ability to share in  his or her vision as a higher tier . I feel it degrades the tool it degrades the community and hurts the chances of the next  artist attempting to  follow the same footsteps.

 If an artist is going to use the l safety net provided by the kickstarted formula I say they should leave the marketing and salesmanship at the door. Or rock it hard in the real world.

Like I said I am not leveling any of this at Mr Robinson. It is the trend I have a problem with.

[JacksonRobinson]

I have a lot of  respect for Mr Robinson. His work shows an incredible amount of effort and ability. This is not something he started  but it is a trend that when used I on principal do not back. I have no quarrel with the term limited edition being used. I have a problem with it being printed and sold on kick starter. Mass produced products  should be offered as add ons if used at all as a higher tier.


Limited Editions are used to create demand.  Take the demand you have and under supply it. This artificially creates a high demand which can be used to create an even higher demand and visibility (a feeding frenzy  is hard to miss). A  much higher price can now be justified not only because of the  exclusiveness but the appearance that a purchase is also an investment.

I have no problem with Limited editions, or the method of using them. I also have no problem with the higher level tiers having less backing slots. My problem is when a reward for the top tier isn’t something with a higher intrinsic value or personal connection with the project. The use of a limited edition to me feels wrong. When the top tier is in fact a separate mass produced product whose higher backing amount is being justified by a artificially created demand I feel it has no place on kick starter.  The extra revenue it generates is completely standing on the shoulders of the lower tiers. As a separate project many limited editions would fail due to price.Many wouldn't sell in the  real world market at the price. I have a problem when the tool that brought together a community to share and believe in an artists vision are turned around and used to limit the communities ability to share in  his or her vision as a higher tier . I feel it degrades the tool it degrades the community and hurts the chances of the next  artist attempting to  follow the same footsteps.

 If an artist is going to use the l safety net provided by the kickstarted formula I say they should leave the marketing and salesmanship at the door. Or rock it hard in the real world.

Like I said I am not leveling any of this at Mr Robinson. It is the trend I have a problem with.

First off Darkderp I want to thank you for speaking your mind and deciding to pull out your backing my project. We as collectors create the industry we want with our wallets and I encourage everyone who backs my projects that if they are not completely satisfied or don't like something to not back it.

I guess my only response would be there is no such thing as "the real world" and kickstarter. They are the same thing. All roads to Rome end in someone deciding to spend their money. The real world fact is the big card companies are starting to feel the heat of the creative force of kicks tarter. We are competing against them and they with us cuz it all comes back to someone's wallet, no matter what the tool or vehicle. Take for example how many people out there are "dumping" their modern decks because collectors are realizing that the quality they have been fed is pretty crappy.

Also there is no such thing as artificial demand. If something is scares or "limited edition" it doesn't matter if it's real "artificial" it all goes back to people having the choice to not swipe their card.

Thank you again for speaking your mind in a constructive way and backing your words up with your wallet. If more collectors did that we would wouldn't have as much lifeless work out there. 

[HandSkillz]

Have to agree with Jackson - you have the choice to pull the trigger or not, and the choice is only yours.  The only people who might get burned are people that are new to collecting or people that are indecisive (some can't afford it as well, me being one in some circumstances, but that's just life).  Not to mention that I know from personal experience that Jackson in particular has gone out of his way on numerous occasions to make sure people have the opportunity to experience his art.

[MrMollusk]

You can choose the run of a deck of cards (or anything else for that matter) and then limit the distribution of that product to create high demand and low supply. Even when it's done preemptively, it's a limited edition.

The cost for a deck is determined by the creator. If a deck has a back, AoS, and joker design upgrade in addition to an extremely cool box and some very nice packaging, of course it's going to cost more. And the designer isn't obligated to make enough decks to match the demand. If a deck is limited edition, then hell. It's limited edition.

As for the purchase being an investment, do you remember what happened with the Fed 52s? They were $12 on Kickstarter, and went for as much as $50 on the aftermarket. For the most part, every deck on KS is limited, because they're done in single print runs.

[Sher143]

I have no problem with Limited editions, or the method of using them. I also have no problem with the higher level tiers having less backing slots. My problem is when a reward for the top tier isn’t something with a higher intrinsic value or personal connection with the project. The use of a limited edition to me feels wrong. When the top tier is in fact a separate mass produced product whose higher backing amount is being justified by a artificially created demand I feel it has no place on kick starter.  The extra revenue it generates is completely standing on the shoulders of the lower tiers. As a separate project many limited editions would fail due to price.Many wouldn't sell in the  real world market at the price.

I'm really sorry I keep asking for explanations, but I'm not sure I understand your argument correctly. You say that you have no problem with the limited editions or the method of using them, so I feel that everyone rebutting you about this isn't really providing a complete counter-argument. But then you mention that, "the use of a limited edition to me feels wrong" and you talk about top tiers being "a separate mass produced product whose higher backing amount is being justified by artificially created demand." Do you mean the wooden boxes? Because I feel those prices are justified considering that they're hand-made. It's $350 for the tier. If it includes one of each decks, that's a $95 value, so the box itself would be $255. If you mean the SL22 tier with two of each, I don't see how they're a "separate mass produced product."

Also, I believe Jackson's Limited Editions would definitely sell in the real world. All the decks he's sold on Kickstarter sold much higher after Kickstarter, which is what I believe you mean by "real world."

[JacksonRobinson]

After reading all the comments I too am confused with what your beef is with "limited edition"

I will repeat something I said in the Independence Thread.

There is no difference in the "Real World" and Kickstarter. In the end all card companies whether on Kickstarter or D&D or T11 are aiming at one goal, to get you to make the choice to spend your money. This fact equalizes the playing field and makes it all the same, no matter what you vehicle of distribution.

I in the end, as a Kickstarter creator am competing with T11 & D&D for the costumer's attention and ultimately wallet.

Limited Editions are simply decks that are not printed again. The ultimate price of a deck is determined by how much a consumer would pay for it. I could price one of my decks at $500 but it would most likely not ever sell because no one would be willing to pay for it. I have priced my decks at a price at which I thought was equal to both the demand of the decks and also my time and effort put into the decks. The price of decks historically matters not if you can justify your asking price and also a consumer would pay for it.

The only thing I ask is to be mindful that our sometimes laser focused attention to "Buy Low Sell High" as a collector over times erodes the very art that we all love, because it drives the direction of the companies in which make the products that we buy. My decks are expensive, because I pay a higher price both with production and my time to create the decks. In my eyes there are only about 3-4 companies/designers who are really pushing the envelope and propelling the craft forward, the rest are settling for "just ok" and putting out decks that show it. Demand the best, demand the highest standards and if its not to those standards (my decks included) don't spending your money. Go take you mom out for dinner, take your kids to the ice cream store, go to your favorite pizza place and buy the pizza that you know is the best anywhere, but please don't by a crappy deck, because buying a crappy deck just because you are a card collector just means that "they" will keep making crappy cards.

Sorry if that got a whee bit off topic but I think it was relevant.

[52plusjoker]

This is good advice that is equally applicable to Vintage and Antique decks

[bamabenz]

"Demand the best, demand the highest standards and if its not to those standards (my decks included) don't spending your money"

Now I'm gonna feel guilty about not asking for a refund for the Moriarty decks.

[JacksonRobinson]

"Demand the best, demand the highest standards and if its not to those standards (my decks included) don't spending your money"

Now I'm gonna feel guilty about not asking for a refund for the Moriarty decks.

Ha Ha for real ask for the refund then. But then you wouldn't own the "errored" version if and when I reprint the corrected one.

[jwats01]

Ha Ha for real ask for the refund then. But then you wouldn't own the "errored" version if and when I reprint the corrected one.

Wait... you didn't do that mistake on purpose did you?!

Nice! LOL! Now that is how you play the market!! I need the error and correct pair! 

I'm taking notes...

Edit: Because sometimes it's hard to detect... I'm kidding here.

[Anthony]

This is why I don't buy as an investment or for resale and only buy what appeals to me. I think it always boils down to your "Intention".....whether you admit it or not.

[bhong]

This is why I don't buy as an investment or for resale and only buy what appeals to me. I think it always boils down to your "Intention".....whether you admit it or not.

That probably says it best. I can understand a lot of people that go into limited edition for the (monetary) value of it. We all have our own reasons to collect. Personally, I enjoy limited edition stuff as something extra special to my collection.

As to the economics of it, I can't fault Kickstarter creators for wanting to create limited edition stuff. There's a lot of decks on Kickstarter now and backers only have so much money. They want their project funded and want to raise as much money as possible. And part of the limited edition does help drive sales and buzz to a project. Ultimately, backers can speak with their wallet on what's worth what. As expensive as those limited edition decks are, at least it's better than buying a brick for a "free" re-colour exclusive deck.

[MrMollusk]

Ha Ha for real ask for the refund then. But then you wouldn't own the "errored" version if and when I reprint the corrected one.

Wait... you didn't do that mistake on purpose did you?!

Nice! LOL! Now that is how you play the market!! I need the error and correct pair! 

I'm taking notes...

...If Jackson were playing the market, the mistakes would probably be much more significant. As it is, the goofs are pretty minor.

Seems like a honest mistake and a honest correction to me.

[Don Boyer]

Jackson's words were very intelligent - there are a lot of people who will buy a deck not because they like it, but because they're either "completists" who must have all the versions of a certain type, brand, etc. or they're speculators who are buying in hopes of selling down the road for a significant profit.  These are the people who will end up most dissatisfied with a purchase over the people who buy simply what they like.  But the industry loves those two categories of buyers because completists will continue buying as long as the company or companies making them continue to make them and the speculators buy in bulk quantities - it gives them an outsized ability to steer the market.  But that doesn't mean that Joe Deckbuyer can't counter their effect on the market, because when there's enough Joe Deckbuyers out there, they'll carry more weight.

[S. Carey]

After reading all the comments I too am confused with what your beef is with "limited edition"

I will repeat something I said in the Independence Thread.

There is no difference in the "Real World" and Kickstarter. In the end all card companies whether on Kickstarter or D&D or T11 are aiming at one goal, to get you to make the choice to spend your money. This fact equalizes the playing field and makes it all the same, no matter what you vehicle of distribution.

I in the end, as a Kickstarter creator am competing with T11 & D&D for the costumer's attention and ultimately wallet.

Limited Editions are simply decks that are not printed again. The ultimate price of a deck is determined by how much a consumer would pay for it. I could price one of my decks at $500 but it would most likely not ever sell because no one would be willing to pay for it. I have priced my decks at a price at which I thought was equal to both the demand of the decks and also my time and effort put into the decks. The price of decks historically matters not if you can justify your asking price and also a consumer would pay for it.

The only thing I ask is to be mindful that our sometimes laser focused attention to "Buy Low Sell High" as a collector over times erodes the very art that we all love, because it drives the direction of the companies in which make the products that we buy. My decks are expensive, because I pay a higher price both with production and my time to create the decks. In my eyes there are only about 3-4 companies/designers who are really pushing the envelope and propelling the craft forward, the rest are settling for "just ok" and putting out decks that show it. Demand the best, demand the highest standards and if its not to those standards (my decks included) don't spending your money. Go take you mom out for dinner, take your kids to the ice cream store, go to your favorite pizza place and buy the pizza that you know is the best anywhere, but please don't by a crappy deck, because buying a crappy deck just because you are a card collector just means that "they" will keep making crappy cards.

Sorry if that got a whee bit off topic but I think it was relevant.

I admit there are crappy decks out there (some would even say my recent project was crappy) but I wouldn't limit it to just 3 to 4 companies/people really pushing the envelope. I think there are a lot of great designers making great products. I never thought of it as just 3 to 4.   

[JacksonRobinson]

In the words of Ron Burgandy "We can agree to disagree"