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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2011, 12:50:45 PM »
 

Kanped

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They appear to cater to (crooked) gamblers about as much as they do to magicians.
http://www.markedcards.org/cards-square.html

Thank you... so much. ;)
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2011, 10:49:15 PM »
 

xela

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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2011, 04:11:29 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Another gambling-oriented site I've used for getting cards and such is
http://gamblingincorporated.com

Mandolins for $2.95 is a good deal.  They have a limited selection compared to most magic/card third-party retailers, but what they do have is mostly cheaper than market price.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2011, 05:06:24 AM »
 

phantom1412

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Another gambling-oriented site I've used for getting cards and such is
http://gamblingincorporated.com

Mandolins for $2.95 is a good deal.  They have a limited selection compared to most magic/card third-party retailers, but what they do have is mostly cheaper than market price.

Very good site.
I found the split spade original, and wynns...
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2011, 12:45:05 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Yeah, you don't find too many people now selling Tally-Ho Split Spades for a price that's actually reasonable!

Their Wynns are the less-rare ones, though - I didn't see them selling the T11 Brown Wynns that don't have the Diamond Back on them.  Could've overlooked it, but be careful before you click "Purchase"...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 12:46:39 PM by Good@Sabacc »
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2011, 02:30:59 AM »
 

phantom1412

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Yeah, you don't find too many people now selling Tally-Ho Split Spades for a price that's actually reasonable!

Their Wynns are the less-rare ones, though - I didn't see them selling the T11 Brown Wynns that don't have the Diamond Back on them.  Could've overlooked it, but be careful before you click "Purchase"...


There is no brown wynns, and what should I be careful at if I wanna purchase?
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2011, 01:17:50 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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There is no brown wynns, and what should I be careful at if I wanna purchase?

Only that you get what you're looking for and not get something that looks like it but isn't.  I've purchased from them before and found them to be reliable.

BTW: spotted bricks of Bikes from Cincinnati selling at the1eyedjack.com for less than I pay at retail for Erlanger ones.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 01:18:21 AM by Good@Sabacc »
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2011, 06:12:07 PM »
 

xela

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Added two new myth debunkings. :)
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2011, 06:19:13 PM »
 

D_bag

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So the cambric finish is all a lie  then  :-[
 
If there is only two finishes then I wonder how many card stocks the uspcc has...
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2011, 06:22:20 PM »
 

xela

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So the cambric finish is all a lie  then  :-[
 
If there is only two finishes then I wonder how many card stocks the uspcc has...

Even they don't know. Stocks are still a giant mystery.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2011, 06:27:40 PM »
 

D_bag

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If there are only 2 finishes though, why is it that some cards clearly feel different than others, like dragon back vs standard? I might be tripping if they do feel the same. I gotta go to target to find out for sure with fresh packs  :)
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2011, 02:18:35 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Whoever said there's only two finishes?  USPC alone has or has had Air Cushion, Air-Flow, Linoid, Cambric, Ivory, Magic, Smooth, Linen...and that's just off the top of my head.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2012, 05:24:16 PM »
 

john

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Can we get some updated myths alex  :-X?
"I got my people, watching the corners, letting me know where the bitches are." - Zimos
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2012, 01:56:47 AM »
 

xela

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Don, USPCC currently only has Magic and Air-Cushion. The rest are mythical and there for branding purposes.

As for why some cards feel different than others, stock plays a much larger role than finishes do. Dragon Backs are probably printed on a higher end Bicycle stock, although I doubt that is the case. More than likely, you're just noticing the difference in ink saturation and quality control. The latter plays a huge role in how a deck feels, and standard Bikes lack a lot of QC. Dragon Backs and almost all other custom decks use higher standards and so you get a better feeling card.

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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2012, 02:30:52 AM »
 

Evan

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Don, USPCC currently only has Magic and Air-Cushion. The rest are mythical and there for branding purposes.

As for why some cards feel different than others, stock plays a much larger role than finishes do. Dragon Backs are probably printed on a higher end Bicycle stock, although I doubt that is the case. More than likely, you're just noticing the difference in ink saturation and quality control. The latter plays a huge role in how a deck feels, and standard Bikes lack a lot of QC. Dragon Backs and almost all other custom decks use higher standards and so you get a better feeling card.
What about linoid? I think there are some other... I just can't think of them at the moment
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2012, 03:43:53 PM »
 

DarrylDavis

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Haha it seems more like the idea that there is only two finishes is the myth. Not the other way around.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2012, 06:21:03 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Haha it seems more like the idea that there is only two finishes is the myth. Not the other way around.
Nope, I believe that is wrong. There are 4 different stocks and 2 different finishes if I am not mistaken. Some have different names just to sound cool lol but they're actually the exact same thing.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2012, 06:40:50 PM »
 

DarrylDavis

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I don't know, it really doesn't seem that likely that they're making up names for their finishes especially since it seems that Alex is the only one who is sure of this theory, while every one is treating his word as fact. So basically unless anyone other than Alex or Alex himself can confirm he knows this because he spoke directly with someone from the uspcc and they confirmed this, then I don't buy it
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2012, 06:43:32 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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I don't know, it really doesn't seem that likely that they're making up names for their finishes especially since it seems that Alex is the only one who is sure of this theory, while every one is treating his word as fact. So basically unless anyone other than Alex or Alex himself can confirm he knows this because he spoke directly with someone from the uspcc and they confirmed this, then I don't buy it
It's no theory. Alex, Don, Paul, or anyone else on these forums in close contact with USPCC can tell you that many decks have a different name for just a classic magic or standard finish.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2012, 08:43:32 PM »
 

DarrylDavis

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I agree with you that obviously some companies take artistic liberty in naming finishes. the "apocalypse" finish on the dooms day deck obviously isn't from the uspcc. However there are tons of others that I don't think are, like cambric and liniod.

And from the looks of it Don doesn't look like he quite understands this only two kinds of finishes thing.
Whoever said there's only two finishes?  USPC alone has or has had Air Cushion, Air-Flow, Linoid, Cambric, Ivory, Magic, Smooth, Linen...and that's just off the top of my head.

If any of those people you mentioned can say that they heard it from uspcc then I will definitely accept it, but from what I see it looks as though people are taking their own speculations and sharing them as fact.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2012, 11:24:59 PM »
 

Russell CircleCityCards

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Pssst... they are all the same.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2012, 01:56:06 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Pssst... they are all the same.

Well, a half-year ago I didn't know any better, but I do now.

Two finishes, regardless of naming conventions: standard and magic.  Third (experimental) finish being used on select Vortex decks as a trial run (much like they did with Magic Finish on the Gold Arcanes).

Four stocks: Bicycle, Aristocrat, Bee and Bee Casino, roughly in order from lowest to highest grade as well as thickness.  Bicycle Casino stock is discontinued, UV500 is prohibitively expensive and Tally Ho stock was replaced with a variant of Aristocrat.

"Variant?  What does THAT mean?"  Glad you asked.  After the paper has been sandwiched from two rolls into one with a yummy adhesive mixed with graphite (to keep cards from being translucent), there's two ways it can go.

For a big mass-produced deck like corner-store Bicycles and Bees, they're done on the web press because it's faster.  In the latter part of the Cincinnati years, people constantly clamored for their decks to be done on the web press instead of the sheet-fed press, thinking the quality of the method was superior.  Lee Asher informed me that it was due to the sheet-fed press in Cincinnati practically being on its last legs, being held together with spit, chewing gum and good wishes.

For a small-order deck, the sheet-fed press in Erlanger is used - and this one's state of the art, unlike the clunker in Cincinnati.  There was a shakedown period for both presses, but that was worked out by sometime in 2010, so any decks made 2011 or later are better quality-wise.  The rolled paper gets cut into sheets, which will then go in the press to become "uncut sheets", and then into the cutter for most of them, since nowadays collectors seem to have taken a liking to the unfinished product so much that they'll pay more for it!  :))

But before either printing process happens, the paper is stored in a warehouse.  The temperature and humidity of the warehouse is carefully controlled, because it can change the characteristics of the paper when it leaves the warehouse goes to press.

One does need to remember, however, there's a bit of a wild card factor at play here as well - and that's recycled content in the paper.  Paper made with a larger percentage of recycled content has fewer and fewer long, strong fibers from the original wood, and has a negative impact on the paper quality.  But nobody doing anything in the paper business DOESN'T recycle - it costs less, it's environmentally friendly and it keeps Greenpeace protestors away...  In time, you can expect the quality of paper diminish over the years, until some genius discovers a substitute material that handles like a dream and sells for a song, all while not increasing the USPC carbon footprint.

Want to see an example of variant stocks?  Pick up a recent pack of both the Aristocrat reprints and Tally Hos.  The Aristocrats are soft like butter, right out of the box - some flourishers dislike this characteristic.  The Tally Ho cards are notably firmer and stiffer out of the box, brand new.  Same exact paper, handled in different ways at the time of manufacture.  Of course, there are other factors at play, too, like the amount of ink absorbed into the paper.  Zenneth Kok said in these forums that he noticed a subtle but detectable difference between his black New Fan Backs and his white ones.  No surprise there - the white ones absorbed much less ink on the card back.

But to be 100% frank about all this, even USPC can't completely guarantee consistent manufacturing from print run to print run, just due to the fact that the paper itself isn't always exactly the same.  They have no control over how the paper itself is made in the paper mill, and slight differences from batch to batch do occur all the time.  They can get it to within a certain range of quality, but that's it.  You won't notice the difference between two decks from the same brick box, but you will notice the difference between two decks manufactured months apart from each other and kept sealed until they were opened at the same time.  (Or maybe you won't notice it because the differences are often rather subtle...)

As far as pricing, USPC currently charges the same amount for Bee Bicycle or Aristocrat stock.  There's premium costs involved with using Bee or Bee Casino, not the least of which being that they farm out the tuckbox manufacturing to a third-party company (and all this time you thought the tucks were the same, right?).  Standard finish comes, well, STANDARD in the price of a deck.  If you make your deck using one of USPC's brand names, it will cost you a bit more, but Magic Finish is offered as a free upgrade if the designer chooses to use it.

Russell - or anyone else with knowledge on these points - PLEASE correct me if any of this is wrong.  I care less about being wrong than I do about finding the unvarnished truth.

Edited for inaccuracy in red.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 02:10:24 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2012, 04:58:53 AM »
 

Russell CircleCityCards

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Bicycle and Aristocrat are the same price, Bee is a little more.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2012, 10:59:03 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Bicycle and Aristocrat are the same price, Bee is a little more.


I did mention that.  See?


Quote
As far as pricing, USPC currently charges the same amount for Bee or Aristocrat stock.  There's premium costs involved with using Bee or Bee Casino, not the least of which being that they farm out the tuckbox manufacturing to a third-party company (and all this time you thought the tucks were the same, right?).  Standard finish comes, well, STANDARD in the price of a deck.  If you make your deck using one of USPC's brand names, it will cost you a bit more, but Magic Finish is offered as a free upgrade if the designer chooses to use it.

WAIT A SEC...  I SEE IT NOW...  Meant to say "Bicycle" in the first sentence, said "Bee" instead!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 11:00:35 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2012, 11:48:20 AM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Very interesting post Don! Now we can refer people to another thread for info on stocks and finishes. How do you learn all this stuff? Through direct contact with USPCC?