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Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links

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Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« on: October 27, 2011, 03:58:13 PM »
 

xela

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Without a doubt some of the most interesting details about how a deck of cards is made are obscured by uncertainty.
This thread is here to once and for all put a rest to some of the myths that circulate the community about cards. Have a myth you want debunked? Submit them to aethercards@gmail.com.

MYTH1 | Card production expenses are through the roof! FALSE
With the USPCC, production costs are reliant on so many variables that it will take decades to list them all. However, here are some basics that everyone should be aware of:

1. As of this post, Arrco faces cost significantly less - it costs more to use Bicycle faces, and even more to customize them.
2. Different stocks cost different amounts of money.
3. It actually costs extra to print under the Bicycle brand, but it can cost more to print without it if you choose to have custom face cards.
4. Metallic inks really are luxury! They cost significantly more per deck to use. Same goes for embossing and custom seals.
5. A huge chunk of spending of any good deck of cards is used on creating proofs/prototypes of the decks. Each prototype costs exponentially more than a deck of your standard cards. For example, the Vortex prototypes cost $250 each.
6. The more you print the cheaper it gets per deck! This one is pretty obvious, because quantity discounts apply to pretty much any business.

So as you can see, card production costs are only through the roof so long as you opt for high quality products. The higher quality you want, the more originality you create - it's very easy to drop over $10,000 on production. Likewise, for small businesses that want quality promotional items such as a deck of cards, it's also possible to spend half that for a simpler product with the USPCC.


MYTH2 | The reason decks aren't fully customized more often is because of legal issues! FALSE
More customization means more money spent, but it also means a longer development time. USPCC has all the obvious legal restrictions that center around copyright, but also allow for 100% custom decks to anyone that wants them.

MYTH3 | Clipart decks take under a week to develop, and are created for the sole purpose of ripping off collectors! TRUE
The unfortunate reality is that many "custom" decks being released now are made in just a few short hours, and don't use any real custom art. The purpose of these decks is to suck in anybody that is looking for a sweet, limited set of cards.

MYTH4 | The USPCC is responsible for all of the horrible decks we see! This is their doing! FALSE
The USPCC goes to great length to actually keep horrible decks from polluting our market. However, they are a client-oriented company and do what the client requests. If you see a horrible deck from them - it's not their fault. Blame the person that made the deck.

MYTH5 | Cards can be signed underneath the cellophane! FALSE
Decks are wrapped in cellophane in the production plants and then shipped out. There is no way to not damage the cellophane to get a signature underneath it.

MYTH6 | Q1 quality control is a real thing - it ensures that decks are printed without any huge mistakes! TRUE
Quality control is a huge must-have for any deck creator. Centered backs, smooth edges - all these things are the result of quality control. It works in a very simple way: all decks that don't meet X standard are chucked. That means it costs more money to print because the higher quality you demand, the more you end up chucking.

Here are some things quality control is NOT:

- Q1 is not a special machine made for those who have the money to print perfect decks.
- Q1 has nothing to do with how your cards handle with the exception that it ensures even edges.
- Q1 is not sheet-fed press vs. web-fed press. These two things have to do with the quantity of decks you're printing, not the quality.

MYTH7 | Web-press is far better for a deck than sheet-press! FALSE
The Web vs. Sheet battle has been going on for ages and it has actually been settled a while ago. The sheet-fed press at USPCC is not lower quality, and as of late many people have been arguing that sheet-fed cards have better quality-control standards. This is a myth I'll be investigating at a later date.

You can learn more about the Web Press and Sheet Press by clicking the respective links here.

MYTH8 | Ohio decks are always better than Kentucky decks. Quality has just gone down the drain lately! FALSE
It took a little while for the factory in Erlanger, Kentucky to begin printing high quality decks like its Ohio counterpart, but we are now at a point where Kentucky decks are actually superior in terms of quality control. For most of the higher-end decks, gone completely are rough and uneven edges. Backs are much more centered now as well, and the available stocks are optimized to last and are absolutely wonderful. In fact, unlike the old Ohio decks which had a nasty tendency to "bow" and create a U-shape in the deck (making flourishing a nightmare), Kentucky decks are known for how flat the cards are. No bowing, no contortions.

MYTH9 | The USPCC minimum run for a custom deck is now 5,000. TRUE
The number of decks that is a minimum requirement from the USPCC for printing is changing constantly. As of now, this minimum is 5,000 decks. Special deals are often arranged with the USPCC and you can print less but it costs significantly more to do so, and not as many options are available.

MYTH10 | The new "Standard Bicycles" are simply nowhere near as good as the old "Rider Backs" from Ohio! TRUE
The "Bicycle Standard" decks have a much lower quality control than their old counterparts. Riderbacks are still made in mass production with high standards for quality, but you aren't as likely to find them in your local department store anymore.

MYTH11 | The USPCC offers tons of different finishes! FALSE
Contrary to popular belief, the USPCC does not offer a large variety of finishes. Actually, there are only two kinds of coatings you can use on a deck of cards manufactured by the USPCC: Magic finish and Air Cushion finish. Cambric, Linoid, Linen, 909 Premium, Plastic Coated - these are just written on the box but either no longer exist (Linoid), or never existed in the first place (909 Premium). Unless you print a deck under the Bicycle brand, the USPCC actually allows you to write any made up finish name on the side of your box.

MYTH12 | The "finish" on a deck refers to the "dimpling" pattern pressed into the cards! FALSE
The finish on a deck of cards actually refers to the type of coating used on the cards in question. The dimpling has no real name, and a deck of cards either has the dimpling or does not. Cards that do not have the dimpling are commonly referred to as "smooth finish" despite the fact that the coating/finish applied can be Air-Cushion as well.



« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 12:03:51 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 09:35:56 PM »
 

D_bag

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Is it true that tally ho is superior to bicycle cards in terms of spreading, stock ,and finish?

Everybody I know tells me tally hos are pretty godly but I never tried them so I dont know sir.

Or is it a myth?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 09:36:15 PM by D_bag »
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 10:07:36 PM »
 

xela

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Is it true that tally ho is superior to bicycle cards in terms of spreading, stock ,and finish?

Everybody I know tells me tally hos are pretty godly but I never tried them so I dont know sir.

Or is it a myth?

The answer to that and more tomorrow night! Three more myths will be debunked.
Forum Founder.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2011, 10:16:01 PM »
 

john

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Mythbusters for cards, i like, i like.

Myth: There are only 2 finishes from the USPCC (smooth and air cushion) and every other finish are just variants on the air cushion either by using a different stock or a coating.

"I got my people, watching the corners, letting me know where the bitches are." - Zimos
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2011, 02:36:11 AM »
 

D_bag

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Mythbusters for cards, i like, i like.


I like the idea too.

Another thing I like to know is:
Are Ohio cincinatti card stock really stiffer than the erlanger kentucky cards or are they the same stuff and our minds playing tricks on us?
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2011, 04:09:27 AM »
 

phantom1412

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Another thing I like to know is:
Are Ohio cincinatti card stock really stiffer than the erlanger kentucky cards or are they the same stuff and our minds playing tricks on us?

When they first moved to KY, the machine is new and not ready yet (Not warmed up maybe)
So, the very first lots of decks did sucks.

But for now, the quality of cards came back and maybe even better.
However I hate the colored joker in the new bike.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2011, 10:58:06 AM »
 

loldudex2

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Speaking of Ohio vs. Kentucky The myth that Ohio bikes are much better then Kentucky decks.
I LIKE MAILBOXES!
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2011, 09:11:14 PM »
 

xela

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I totally forgot to update this with the fact that I added three more!
Forum Founder.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2011, 04:06:40 AM »
 

phantom1412

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I'm confusing about the myth10

MYTH10 | The new "Standard Bicycles" are simply nowhere near as good as the old "Rider Backs" from Ohio! TRUE
The "Bicycle Standard" decks have a much lower quality control than their old counterparts. Riderbacks are still made in mass production with high standards for quality, but you aren't as likely to find them in your local department store anymore.

Is riderback still produced? Then where can I buy it?
Is the one at D&D shop riderback or standard back?
(By the way I know the back is the same but I wanna know about the box)
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2011, 11:28:30 PM »
 

xela

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If the box says "Standard" at the bottom, they are the not-so-good Rider Backs. If it simply says "Rider Back" at the bottom - you know you're getting the good ones.
Forum Founder.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2011, 11:35:32 PM »
 

phantom1412

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If the box says "Standard" at the bottom, they are the not-so-good Rider Backs. If it simply says "Rider Back" at the bottom - you know you're getting the good ones.

I heard that the rider back (With the better looking box) is not produced anymore.
And form now on we have left with the standard back (with the ugly box).
Is that true? Or the rider back is still in production as well?
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2011, 11:53:54 PM »
 

Siegismyname

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I tink rider backs are still being produced. And standards are the ones with the perfect pips.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2011, 10:24:50 AM »
 

Mystery

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I tink rider backs are still being produced. And standards are the ones with the perfect pips.
Nope, Bicycle Rider Backs and no longer produced. :(
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2011, 02:43:29 PM »
 

John B.

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yea i find he riderbacks at some local stores that have had them forever, if anyone has a bunch your lucky, all mine were damage except one un-opened still in cellophane deck of rider backs.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2011, 02:46:14 PM »
 

Evan

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yea i find he riderbacks at some local stores that have had them forever, if anyone has a bunch your lucky, all mine were damage except one un-opened still in cellophane deck of rider backs.
My local magic shop just got a few bricks of the blue rider backs... but no red  :(
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2011, 02:47:34 PM »
 

John B.

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Lucky, I can not find blue only found red, hoping to look around at the dollar stores again soon and see what I can find. Wal-mart had one of each (one rider one standard) but I guess with no more riders they stoped.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2011, 03:48:50 PM »
 

xela

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There is a playing card store here that has hundreds if not thousand of them (hundreds on display, not sure how many are in the back).
Forum Founder.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2011, 03:56:47 PM »
 

john

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There is a playing card store here that has hundreds if not thousand of them (hundreds on display, not sure how many are in the back).

And you didn't tell us the store, are you hiding something, do you really love bikes and were hiding your love for them this whole time. :)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 03:58:34 PM by JDS1337 »
"I got my people, watching the corners, letting me know where the bitches are." - Zimos
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2011, 03:57:51 PM »
 

xela

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And you didn't tell us the store, are you hiding something, do you really love bikes and were hiding your love for them this hole time. :)

It's called the Gambler's General Store.

http://www.gamblersgeneralstore.com/pages/playing_cards/24.php?list=0
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 03:58:32 PM by alex. »
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2011, 04:00:26 PM »
 

john

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It's called the Gambler's General Store.

http://www.gamblersgeneralstore.com/pages/playing_cards/24.php?list=0

I thought they only sold canceled casino cards, whenever i looked that's all they had.
"I got my people, watching the corners, letting me know where the bitches are." - Zimos
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2011, 07:50:54 PM »
 

Mystery

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I was actually wondering, why are Fact 1 - 8 posted twice?

As for MYTH6, it is still very possible that decks with mistakes slip through though, just not as much as with Q2 or Q3 (the latter one being Standard Bicycles and Mandolins).

MYTH7 isn't entirely true. Things have been sorted out a while ago as of that the decks from the sheet press aren't actually crap anymore (these decks used to last way short), but as of today web press is still considered to be the better and more consistent one of the two with notable differences in quality.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 07:52:22 PM by Mystery »
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2011, 10:36:37 PM »
 

John B.

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can i ship these here? i need to come to vegas, i want all those.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2011, 12:01:42 AM »
 

6insider9

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Mythbusters for cards, i like, i like.

Myth: There are only 2 finishes from the USPCC (smooth and air cushion) and every other finish are just variants on the air cushion either by using a different stock or a coating.

This is pretty much true. Another variant to go along with stock and coating is embossing. There are different levels of embossing.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2011, 01:01:34 AM »
 

6insider9

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I'm confusing about the myth10

MYTH10 | The new "Standard Bicycles" are simply nowhere near as good as the old "Rider Backs" from Ohio! TRUE
The "Bicycle Standard" decks have a much lower quality control than their old counterparts. Riderbacks are still made in mass production with high standards for quality, but you aren't as likely to find them in your local department store anymore.

Is riderback still produced? Then where can I buy it?
Is the one at D&D shop riderback or standard back?
(By the way I know the back is the same but I wanna know about the box)

Let me shed some light on this. FALSE! The
quality control is no different. Yes there may
have been a few techinal hiccups going from
Cincinnati to Erlanger but it is all good now. And what your calling
"Rider Back" box is not being mass produced anymore.
The "Standard" box is simply an updated design using the
same cards as always. The word "Standard" only
refers to the "Standard Face Style" like the same way
"Jumbo" refers to the "Jumbo Face Style"
So the short ansewer is... Same cards with ugly box!
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2011, 08:35:52 AM »
 

John B.

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Let me shed some light on this. FALSE! The
quality control is no different. Yes there may
have been a few techinal hiccups going from
Cincinnati to Erlanger but it is all good now. And what your calling
"Rider Back" box is not being mass produced anymore.
The "Standard" box is simply an updated design using the
same cards as always. The word "Standard" only
refers to the "Standard Face Style" like the same way
"Jumbo" refers to the "Jumbo Face Style"
So the short ansewer is... Same cards with ugly box!

actually the riderback deck had more ink in the pips, and i think a little bigger if i was told right, standard is a cheaper version.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2011, 10:50:53 AM »
 

6insider9

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actually the riderback deck had more ink in the pips, and i think a little bigger if i was told right, standard is a cheaper version.

Actually the story about the smaller pip goes like this... The "Rider Back" box design was changed to the "Standard" box design. in the beginning both had the same faces & pips. Then for a short period of time, for like a couple of weeks the faces were changed to the smaller pips and perfectly double ended faces. So when people started griping about the smaller pips, the faces were changed
back to the original size. "Standard" is not a cheaper version, It's only a ugly redesign.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2011, 10:58:47 AM »
 

phantom1412

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And now the standard box has a color joker.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2011, 11:06:16 AM »
 

6insider9

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And now the standard box has a color joker.

The colored joker is not in all Standard boxes this was for only for certain customers
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2011, 11:11:36 AM »
 

phantom1412

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The colored joker is not in all Standard boxes this was for only for certain customers

What? Really?
So the color joker is not typical?
But I got it from costco Japan.

But I'm glad that the white joker is still remain. I like the white one more.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2011, 11:47:58 AM »
 

6insider9

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What? Really?
So the color joker is not typical?
But I got it from costco Japan.

But I'm glad that the white joker is still remain. I like the white one more.

Let me revise this just a bit, The colored Joker was originally meant for the Asian market, But it appears to be getting more common all over the place
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2011, 02:13:17 PM »
 

John B.

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all my jokers in my new standards are colored.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 07:43:36 PM by MrMagic322 »
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2011, 09:01:12 PM »
 

phantom1412

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all my jokers in my new standards are colored.

And You are in USA, right?
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2011, 10:49:28 PM »
 

6insider9

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And You are in USA, right?

I doubled checked my resources and the colored joker is becoming wide spread.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2011, 11:01:58 PM »
 

John B.

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And You are in USA, right?

yes i am and real quick anyone know about the 808's? i just found some riders in a small store and the back of the deck is the riderback but it the bottom says 808 and side says made in ohio.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2011, 11:06:07 PM »
 

john

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yes i am and real quick anyone know about the 808's? i just found some riders in a small store and the back of the deck is the riderback but it the bottom says 808 and side says made in ohio.

I'm confused, can you post some pictures.
"I got my people, watching the corners, letting me know where the bitches are." - Zimos
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2011, 11:10:40 PM »
 

6insider9

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yes i am and real quick anyone know about the 808's? i just found some riders in a small store and the back of the deck is the riderback but it the bottom says 808 and side says made in ohio.

Those are older decks, at least 3 years old. The 808 is being phased out with legal garbage since Jarden Corp bought USPCC
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2011, 11:21:22 PM »
 

John B.

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are they good or bad then? worth anything?
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2011, 11:23:15 PM »
 

phantom1412

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Worth more than a normal standard box nowadays.
But it's not getting more than $3 per deck.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2011, 11:25:19 PM »
 

John B.

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that was what it costed for these or standards.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2011, 11:28:56 PM »
 

phantom1412

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that was what it costed for these or standards.

Doesn't standard cost about 1.5-2$ in USA?
I got standard about 2$ at Japan.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2011, 11:31:19 PM »
 

John B.

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depends on where you go.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2011, 05:00:12 PM »
 

loldudex2

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Besides the fact that the Bucks promoted it, what's so special about the Absolut Decks?
I LIKE MAILBOXES!
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2011, 07:25:39 PM »
 

phantom1412

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Besides the fact that the Bucks promoted it, what's so special about the Absolut Decks?

It's non USPCC deck, which will give you different feeling in handle.
The cards are not in 3 piles as USPCC deck, it's one pile and much thinner.

(I don't have it, that's what I read)
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2011, 02:30:26 AM »
 

xela

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Besides the fact that the Bucks promoted it, what's so special about the Absolut Decks?

I'll add the full answer to this in the next update!
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2011, 07:06:23 PM »
 

vmagic

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Here's a question, if the minimum amount of decks one can order is 5000, how is it there are still limited editions being released?
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2011, 07:19:16 PM »
 

john

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Here's a question, if the minimum amount of decks one can order is 5000, how is it there are still limited editions being released?

lim·it·ed/ˈlimitid/
Adjective:   
Restricted in size, amount, or extent; few, small, or short: "a limited number of places are available".

Therefore if a deck will only be printed once it is in a sense "limited".
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2011, 07:19:46 PM »
 

CBJ

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Here's a question, if the minimum amount of decks one can order is 5000, how is it there are still limited editions being released?

Designers build up relationships with USPCC, then some are given special privileges to print smaller runs.  Or given special permission to print half one color/half another color.  Some return customers are also granted this power if their designs are of a certain caliber.

USPCC raised the limit to 5000 to try to diminish the low quality crap designs that people were approaching them with.  If you have the money, and want to do a 5000 print run... they will print it.  But at an average of 15-20 grand to print an order of that size, it really weeds out a lot of the bad designs.

Now sometimes a new artist comes along with a card design that is so good... that the rules are bent...
Alex Chin was given very special permission to print only 1250 of each color deck, I would imagine because of the reviews that his designs are getting from the entire playing card community.

CBJ
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 07:55:37 PM by CBJ »
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2011, 08:40:07 PM »
 

xela

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Designers build up relationships with USPCC, then some are given special privileges to print smaller runs.  Or given special permission to print half one color/half another color.  Some return customers are also granted this power if their designs are of a certain caliber.

USPCC raised the limit to 5000 to try to diminish the low quality crap designs that people were approaching them with.  If you have the money, and want to do a 5000 print run... they will print it.  But at an average of 15-20 grand to print an order of that size, it really weeds out a lot of the bad designs.

Now sometimes a new artist comes along with a card design that is so good... that the rules are bent...
Alex Chin was given very special permission to print only 1250 of each color deck, I would imagine because of the reviews that his designs are getting from the entire playing card community.

CBJ

Unless his numbers changed, the last thing I heard was 2,500 sets and 5k decks total for the Seasons.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2011, 08:52:03 PM »
 

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Yes.. You're right Alex.

Confirmed with the other Alex


Kinda blows my theory out of the water LOL

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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2011, 02:42:30 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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OK, so the "Standard" decks of today and the "Rider Back" decks of pre-2009 or so are essentially the same cards (style 808 Rider Backs), with "Standard" having an uglier box.  I know a lot of people have a real hate on for the new box design, especially those using gaffed boxes that match the old style.

But....

Someone out there is still making Bicycle Rider Backs in the old box design.  In fact, he uses Bee stock and has the cards traditionally cut for better shuffles and faroes.  It's Richard Turner, the same guy who co-designed the 809 Mandolin Backs for USPC.  And the cards are "Bicycle Gold Standard".  They look identical to the old boxes, except with a gold sticker on the back that reads "Traditionally Cut for the Professional" or something to that effect.  The best part?  They're only marginally more expensive than what I pay at retail for Bikes, or cheaper if you buy in bulk, while being far ahead in quality.  I have some and they are indeed worth it.

This is Turner's preferred retailer - there's a link to this page from his own website.  He also sells 809 Mandolin Backs.
http://waltonmagic.com/card-shop/

These guys sell the Gold Standards for fifty cents a pack less if you aren't buying in bulk.  I'm almost afraid to show you this page, because they have some AWESOME stuff for sale, including CUSTOM-CUT stripper decks in the design of your choice.  They appear to cater to (crooked) gamblers about as much as they do to magicians.
http://www.markedcards.org/cards-square.html
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2011, 12:50:45 PM »
 

Kanped

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They appear to cater to (crooked) gamblers about as much as they do to magicians.
http://www.markedcards.org/cards-square.html

Thank you... so much. ;)
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2011, 10:49:15 PM »
 

xela

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Turner Bikes are all I use for practice.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2011, 04:11:29 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Another gambling-oriented site I've used for getting cards and such is
http://gamblingincorporated.com

Mandolins for $2.95 is a good deal.  They have a limited selection compared to most magic/card third-party retailers, but what they do have is mostly cheaper than market price.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2011, 05:06:24 AM »
 

phantom1412

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Another gambling-oriented site I've used for getting cards and such is
http://gamblingincorporated.com

Mandolins for $2.95 is a good deal.  They have a limited selection compared to most magic/card third-party retailers, but what they do have is mostly cheaper than market price.

Very good site.
I found the split spade original, and wynns...
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2011, 12:45:05 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Yeah, you don't find too many people now selling Tally-Ho Split Spades for a price that's actually reasonable!

Their Wynns are the less-rare ones, though - I didn't see them selling the T11 Brown Wynns that don't have the Diamond Back on them.  Could've overlooked it, but be careful before you click "Purchase"...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 12:46:39 PM by Good@Sabacc »
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2011, 02:30:59 AM »
 

phantom1412

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Yeah, you don't find too many people now selling Tally-Ho Split Spades for a price that's actually reasonable!

Their Wynns are the less-rare ones, though - I didn't see them selling the T11 Brown Wynns that don't have the Diamond Back on them.  Could've overlooked it, but be careful before you click "Purchase"...


There is no brown wynns, and what should I be careful at if I wanna purchase?
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2011, 01:17:50 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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There is no brown wynns, and what should I be careful at if I wanna purchase?

Only that you get what you're looking for and not get something that looks like it but isn't.  I've purchased from them before and found them to be reliable.

BTW: spotted bricks of Bikes from Cincinnati selling at the1eyedjack.com for less than I pay at retail for Erlanger ones.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 01:18:21 AM by Good@Sabacc »
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2011, 06:12:07 PM »
 

xela

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Added two new myth debunkings. :)
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2011, 06:19:13 PM »
 

D_bag

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So the cambric finish is all a lie  then  :-[
 
If there is only two finishes then I wonder how many card stocks the uspcc has...
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2011, 06:22:20 PM »
 

xela

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So the cambric finish is all a lie  then  :-[
 
If there is only two finishes then I wonder how many card stocks the uspcc has...

Even they don't know. Stocks are still a giant mystery.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2011, 06:27:40 PM »
 

D_bag

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If there are only 2 finishes though, why is it that some cards clearly feel different than others, like dragon back vs standard? I might be tripping if they do feel the same. I gotta go to target to find out for sure with fresh packs  :)
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2011, 02:18:35 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Whoever said there's only two finishes?  USPC alone has or has had Air Cushion, Air-Flow, Linoid, Cambric, Ivory, Magic, Smooth, Linen...and that's just off the top of my head.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2012, 05:24:16 PM »
 

john

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Can we get some updated myths alex  :-X?
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2012, 01:56:47 AM »
 

xela

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Don, USPCC currently only has Magic and Air-Cushion. The rest are mythical and there for branding purposes.

As for why some cards feel different than others, stock plays a much larger role than finishes do. Dragon Backs are probably printed on a higher end Bicycle stock, although I doubt that is the case. More than likely, you're just noticing the difference in ink saturation and quality control. The latter plays a huge role in how a deck feels, and standard Bikes lack a lot of QC. Dragon Backs and almost all other custom decks use higher standards and so you get a better feeling card.

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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2012, 02:30:52 AM »
 

Evan

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Don, USPCC currently only has Magic and Air-Cushion. The rest are mythical and there for branding purposes.

As for why some cards feel different than others, stock plays a much larger role than finishes do. Dragon Backs are probably printed on a higher end Bicycle stock, although I doubt that is the case. More than likely, you're just noticing the difference in ink saturation and quality control. The latter plays a huge role in how a deck feels, and standard Bikes lack a lot of QC. Dragon Backs and almost all other custom decks use higher standards and so you get a better feeling card.
What about linoid? I think there are some other... I just can't think of them at the moment
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2012, 03:43:53 PM »
 

DarrylDavis

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Haha it seems more like the idea that there is only two finishes is the myth. Not the other way around.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2012, 06:21:03 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Haha it seems more like the idea that there is only two finishes is the myth. Not the other way around.
Nope, I believe that is wrong. There are 4 different stocks and 2 different finishes if I am not mistaken. Some have different names just to sound cool lol but they're actually the exact same thing.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2012, 06:40:50 PM »
 

DarrylDavis

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I don't know, it really doesn't seem that likely that they're making up names for their finishes especially since it seems that Alex is the only one who is sure of this theory, while every one is treating his word as fact. So basically unless anyone other than Alex or Alex himself can confirm he knows this because he spoke directly with someone from the uspcc and they confirmed this, then I don't buy it
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2012, 06:43:32 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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I don't know, it really doesn't seem that likely that they're making up names for their finishes especially since it seems that Alex is the only one who is sure of this theory, while every one is treating his word as fact. So basically unless anyone other than Alex or Alex himself can confirm he knows this because he spoke directly with someone from the uspcc and they confirmed this, then I don't buy it
It's no theory. Alex, Don, Paul, or anyone else on these forums in close contact with USPCC can tell you that many decks have a different name for just a classic magic or standard finish.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2012, 08:43:32 PM »
 

DarrylDavis

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I agree with you that obviously some companies take artistic liberty in naming finishes. the "apocalypse" finish on the dooms day deck obviously isn't from the uspcc. However there are tons of others that I don't think are, like cambric and liniod.

And from the looks of it Don doesn't look like he quite understands this only two kinds of finishes thing.
Whoever said there's only two finishes?  USPC alone has or has had Air Cushion, Air-Flow, Linoid, Cambric, Ivory, Magic, Smooth, Linen...and that's just off the top of my head.

If any of those people you mentioned can say that they heard it from uspcc then I will definitely accept it, but from what I see it looks as though people are taking their own speculations and sharing them as fact.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2012, 11:24:59 PM »
 

Russell CircleCityCards

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Pssst... they are all the same.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2012, 01:56:06 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Pssst... they are all the same.

Well, a half-year ago I didn't know any better, but I do now.

Two finishes, regardless of naming conventions: standard and magic.  Third (experimental) finish being used on select Vortex decks as a trial run (much like they did with Magic Finish on the Gold Arcanes).

Four stocks: Bicycle, Aristocrat, Bee and Bee Casino, roughly in order from lowest to highest grade as well as thickness.  Bicycle Casino stock is discontinued, UV500 is prohibitively expensive and Tally Ho stock was replaced with a variant of Aristocrat.

"Variant?  What does THAT mean?"  Glad you asked.  After the paper has been sandwiched from two rolls into one with a yummy adhesive mixed with graphite (to keep cards from being translucent), there's two ways it can go.

For a big mass-produced deck like corner-store Bicycles and Bees, they're done on the web press because it's faster.  In the latter part of the Cincinnati years, people constantly clamored for their decks to be done on the web press instead of the sheet-fed press, thinking the quality of the method was superior.  Lee Asher informed me that it was due to the sheet-fed press in Cincinnati practically being on its last legs, being held together with spit, chewing gum and good wishes.

For a small-order deck, the sheet-fed press in Erlanger is used - and this one's state of the art, unlike the clunker in Cincinnati.  There was a shakedown period for both presses, but that was worked out by sometime in 2010, so any decks made 2011 or later are better quality-wise.  The rolled paper gets cut into sheets, which will then go in the press to become "uncut sheets", and then into the cutter for most of them, since nowadays collectors seem to have taken a liking to the unfinished product so much that they'll pay more for it!  :))

But before either printing process happens, the paper is stored in a warehouse.  The temperature and humidity of the warehouse is carefully controlled, because it can change the characteristics of the paper when it leaves the warehouse goes to press.

One does need to remember, however, there's a bit of a wild card factor at play here as well - and that's recycled content in the paper.  Paper made with a larger percentage of recycled content has fewer and fewer long, strong fibers from the original wood, and has a negative impact on the paper quality.  But nobody doing anything in the paper business DOESN'T recycle - it costs less, it's environmentally friendly and it keeps Greenpeace protestors away...  In time, you can expect the quality of paper diminish over the years, until some genius discovers a substitute material that handles like a dream and sells for a song, all while not increasing the USPC carbon footprint.

Want to see an example of variant stocks?  Pick up a recent pack of both the Aristocrat reprints and Tally Hos.  The Aristocrats are soft like butter, right out of the box - some flourishers dislike this characteristic.  The Tally Ho cards are notably firmer and stiffer out of the box, brand new.  Same exact paper, handled in different ways at the time of manufacture.  Of course, there are other factors at play, too, like the amount of ink absorbed into the paper.  Zenneth Kok said in these forums that he noticed a subtle but detectable difference between his black New Fan Backs and his white ones.  No surprise there - the white ones absorbed much less ink on the card back.

But to be 100% frank about all this, even USPC can't completely guarantee consistent manufacturing from print run to print run, just due to the fact that the paper itself isn't always exactly the same.  They have no control over how the paper itself is made in the paper mill, and slight differences from batch to batch do occur all the time.  They can get it to within a certain range of quality, but that's it.  You won't notice the difference between two decks from the same brick box, but you will notice the difference between two decks manufactured months apart from each other and kept sealed until they were opened at the same time.  (Or maybe you won't notice it because the differences are often rather subtle...)

As far as pricing, USPC currently charges the same amount for Bee Bicycle or Aristocrat stock.  There's premium costs involved with using Bee or Bee Casino, not the least of which being that they farm out the tuckbox manufacturing to a third-party company (and all this time you thought the tucks were the same, right?).  Standard finish comes, well, STANDARD in the price of a deck.  If you make your deck using one of USPC's brand names, it will cost you a bit more, but Magic Finish is offered as a free upgrade if the designer chooses to use it.

Russell - or anyone else with knowledge on these points - PLEASE correct me if any of this is wrong.  I care less about being wrong than I do about finding the unvarnished truth.

Edited for inaccuracy in red.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 02:10:24 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #72 on: June 12, 2012, 04:58:53 AM »
 

Russell CircleCityCards

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Bicycle and Aristocrat are the same price, Bee is a little more.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #73 on: June 12, 2012, 10:59:03 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Bicycle and Aristocrat are the same price, Bee is a little more.


I did mention that.  See?


Quote
As far as pricing, USPC currently charges the same amount for Bee or Aristocrat stock.  There's premium costs involved with using Bee or Bee Casino, not the least of which being that they farm out the tuckbox manufacturing to a third-party company (and all this time you thought the tucks were the same, right?).  Standard finish comes, well, STANDARD in the price of a deck.  If you make your deck using one of USPC's brand names, it will cost you a bit more, but Magic Finish is offered as a free upgrade if the designer chooses to use it.

WAIT A SEC...  I SEE IT NOW...  Meant to say "Bicycle" in the first sentence, said "Bee" instead!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 11:00:35 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2012, 11:48:20 AM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Very interesting post Don! Now we can refer people to another thread for info on stocks and finishes. How do you learn all this stuff? Through direct contact with USPCC?
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2012, 12:04:03 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Very interesting post Don! Now we can refer people to another thread for info on stocks and finishes. How do you learn all this stuff? Through direct contact with USPCC?


Some, yes, but through official documents rather than direct contact.  Most of my sources I can't mention.  Make that ALL of them.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2012, 05:50:49 PM »
 

Assassino13

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So I asked USPCC if it were true there were only two finishes, and they basically said "Yes, but the amount of finish sprayed on also makes a difference. For instance, Tally's have more finish than Bikes." hope that clears things up a little.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2012, 02:48:26 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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So I asked USPCC if it were true there were only two finishes, and they basically said "Yes, but the amount of finish sprayed on also makes a difference. For instance, Tally's have more finish than Bikes." hope that clears things up a little.

Dude, that sounds more like snake oil to me...  I've never heard them even admit to having only two finishes in public, and it's a subject they're quite sensitive about.  As far as quantity of finish...  I just find that a little hard to swallow.
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Playing Card Facts from Around the Web
« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2012, 03:31:59 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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USPC's 2012 Catalog for Retailers
http://www.bicyclecards.com/catalogs/USPC_OnlineCatalog_R25.pdf

Anthropolgy Article on the Chinese Origin of Playing Cards (dated 2009)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/aa.1895.8.1.02a00070/pdf

Cardboard Illusions - a little dated, but has some cool info on cards, magic and other stuff
http://cardboardillusions.com/card_history_of_cards.php

"Mrs. Robinson's" - the legendary handbook displaying (almost) all known Bicycle backs as of 1955
http://www.cypressfilms.com/Bicycle//Robinson/Robinson.html

...and speaking of Cypress Films, here's their page on dating USPC decks.  The letter code list is out of date, but the info on tax stamps are "written gold" for vintage collectors.
http://www.cypressfilms.com/Bicycle/USPC_Dates/USPC_Dating_Codes.html

Lee Asher's more up-to-date list of USPC letter codes.  He actually gave me a "thank you" credit at the bottom of the list, right next to Tom and Judy Dawson!
http://www.leeasher.com/playground/articles/how_to_date_a_deck_of_cards.html

A couple of relevant Wikipedia articles, for good measure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_card
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Playing_Card_Company



Ladies and gentlemen!  If you also have some valuable or semi-precious links for information about playing cards, PLEASE, I IMPLORE YOU to reply here and share them with the rest of us!
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Re: Playing Card Facts from Around the Web
« Reply #79 on: July 31, 2012, 10:07:47 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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This comes to us courtesy of Atheosile.  Excellent videos - never knew a TRAGIC ROYALTY deck could actually perform!  The video on card conditioning should be must-see-YouTube for all cardists and a lot of the rest of you.



Hey guys, I was wondering if any of you had some advice/tips on deck conditioning...The deck, Tragic Royalty (bicycle) has a horrible finish, I'm sure most of us know lol...This guy Pred has a video where he uses these and has conditioned the deck to fan beautifully...I know it is old and saw it awhile back...Anyone have pointers?

Here is the link to the vid:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H-du5B7Wy4&feature=plcp

*EDIT*: Just found this video from him...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDOj6ycFAr4&feature=player_embedded
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2012, 10:10:13 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Alex, can you please update this? I find it very interesting! Thx!
 

Re: Playing Card Facts from Around the Web
« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2012, 06:29:19 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Yeah, pred is a freaking beast. I used his conditioning technique on my old style studs... I've been using them on a daily basis for months, and really 0 clumping. Plus they're very soft and nice to use.
 

Re: Playing Card Facts from Around the Web
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2012, 01:03:15 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I'm going to merge this topic with the "Fact or Fiction" topic and retitle it to reflect both topics.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #83 on: September 23, 2012, 03:01:34 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Alex, can you please update this? I find it very interesting! Thx!

It sounds like Alex is a little busy, so let me see what I can do about that...

Here's some quotes from Alex's first post - I'll go over them one by one and see if anything's changed since he wrote it.

Without a doubt some of the most interesting details about how a deck of cards is made are obscured by uncertainty.
This thread is here to once and for all put a rest to some of the myths that circulate the community about cards. Have a myth you want debunked? Submit them to aethercards@gmail.com.

MYTH1 | Card production expenses are through the roof! FALSE
With the USPCC, production costs are reliant on so many variables that it will take decades to list them all. However, here are some basics that everyone should be aware of:

1. As of this post, Arrco faces cost significantly less - it costs more to use Bicycle faces, and even more to customize them.
2. Different stocks cost different amounts of money.
3. It actually costs extra to print under the Bicycle brand, but it can cost more to print without it if you choose to have custom face cards.
4. Metallic inks really are luxury! They cost significantly more per deck to use. Same goes for embossing and custom seals.
5. A huge chunk of spending of any good deck of cards is used on creating proofs/prototypes of the decks. Each prototype costs exponentially more than a deck of your standard cards. For example, the Vortex prototypes cost $250 each.
6. The more you print the cheaper it gets per deck! This one is pretty obvious, because quantity discounts apply to pretty much any business.

So as you can see, card production costs are only through the roof so long as you opt for high quality products. The higher quality you want, the more originality you create - it's very easy to drop over $10,000 on production. Likewise, for small businesses that want quality promotional items such as a deck of cards, it's also possible to spend half that for a simpler product with the USPCC.


 Still pretty much correct.  Making a very basic deck with nothing custom but the backs would be very cheap in comparison to the custom decks we're used to seeing.  The only increase I'd see in production costs would have to do with the cost of fuel for transporting manufacturing materials and finished products.  My father was a contractor while he was still alive, and even then contractors were tacking on surcharges for fuel usage - I can't imagine this practice has gone away.  If anything, it's likely a higher charge today than it was then.
 
 
MYTH2 | The reason decks aren't fully customized more often is because of legal issues! FALSE
More customization means more money spent, but it also means a longer development time. USPCC has all the obvious legal restrictions that center around copyright, but also allow for 100% custom decks to anyone that wants them.


 Again, still pretty much the same.  Copyrighted works not owned by the deck's creator get scrutinized up the wazoo to make sure the proper legal clearances are in place, but if you're dealing with your own completely original art, it's not all that big an issue.
 
 
MYTH3 | Clipart decks take under a week to develop, and are created for the sole purpose of ripping off collectors! TRUE
The unfortunate reality is that many "custom" decks being released now are made in just a few short hours, and don't use any real custom art. The purpose of these decks is to suck in anybody that is looking for a sweet, limited set of cards.


 Merz67 lives and dies by this fact!  The moral of the story is don't buy a crappy deck just because it's a limited edition.  All that does is encourage more people to make crappy decks.
 
 
MYTH4 | The USPCC is responsible for all of the horrible decks we see! This is their doing! FALSE
The USPCC goes to great length to actually keep horrible decks from polluting our market. However, they are a client-oriented company and do what the client requests. If you see a horrible deck from them - it's not their fault. Blame the person that made the deck.


 All too true, what Alex stated...
 
 
MYTH5 | Cards can be signed underneath the cellophane! FALSE
Decks are wrapped in cellophane in the production plants and then shipped out. There is no way to not damage the cellophane to get a signature underneath it.


 Alex himself has proved this myth to be true now - he gave away some decks that were signed under the cellophane.  But the trick of it is that such decks would usually be signed after production.  With the purchase of a $50 resealer machine and the cellophane sheets with tear strips, you can remove the factory-issue cellophane, sign it, then reseal it for later sale or giveaway.  But it is a tedious process, one that most deck designers aren't in a position to deal with (or want to deal with).

The more common method of deck signing is unwrapping the cello and signing the box itself.  It's a permanent marking, but it means the deck's no longer sealed in cellophane.  The other option is to sign the cellophane.  But most markers will rub off cellophane if you accidentally handle the signed portion of the wrapping, and it also means you'll never open that deck because that means you might tear off part of the cello that's signed in the process.  Furthermore, cellophane does shrink with heat and time, eventually tearing open on its own (many still-sealed Jerry's Nugget decks are in this condition).  When the cellophane's gone, so is the autograph.
 
 
MYTH6 | Q1 quality control is a real thing - it ensures that decks are printed without any huge mistakes! TRUE
Quality control is a huge must-have for any deck creator. Centered backs, smooth edges - all these things are the result of quality control. It works in a very simple way: all decks that don't meet X standard are chucked. That means it costs more money to print because the higher quality you demand, the more you end up chucking.

Here are some things quality control is NOT:

- Q1 is not a special machine made for those who have the money to print perfect decks.
- Q1 has nothing to do with how your cards handle with the exception that it ensures even edges.
- Q1 is not sheet-fed press vs. web-fed press. These two things have to do with the quantity of decks you're printing, not the quality.


 Q1 will indeed get you the best quality that USPC has to offer.  But that doesn't mean that every single deck will be completely perfectly made.  It just means that in the overall print run, more defective decks get caught during the manufacture and packaging processes - but it doesn't mean they catch all of them.

And as Alex stated, it's not some special machine or different type of press.  It's simply the level of quality control offered by the company.  Q-levels range from Q1 (best) down to Q5 (worst).  The lower you go, the cheaper your manufacturing will be, but the greater chance that bad defects will get through to your customers' hands and the more refund/replacement requests you'll have to deal with.
 
 
MYTH7 | Web-press is far better for a deck than sheet-press! FALSE
The Web vs. Sheet battle has been going on for ages and it has actually been settled a while ago. The sheet-fed press at USPCC is not lower quality, and as of late many people have been arguing that sheet-fed cards have better quality-control standards. This is a myth I'll be investigating at a later date.

You can learn more about the Web Press and Sheet Press by clicking the respective links here.


 I went over this in a subsequent posting.  I spoke with Lee Asher about this.  He mentioned that in the latter days of the Ohio plant, the sheet-fed press was a dilapidated, ancient machine, thus more likely to make faulty decks.  The Kentucky plant, however, now has all state-of-the-art equipment.

In the sheet-fed press, the paper roll is cut into sheets before going into the press.  This is fine for a short-run deck with only a few thousand copies being made, but somewhat inefficient for decks with larger print runs.  In the web press, the paper goes into the machine as a roll, is printed, and then is cut into sheets, then later into individual cards.  This is the type of press you see in those movies and TV shows where a scene takes place at a newspaper plant - the paper winds though the machine like a really long belt.  This is a very fast press, perfectly suited for large print runs.

As far as quality, the current presses in use at Erlanger are about equal in quality.  Other factors might affect the quality than simply which press is used, such has how recently a press has been maintained, whether the cutting blades and dies are new and sharp, how the paper was stored before printing began, the quality and consistency of the paper from the source, etc.
 
 
MYTH8 | Ohio decks are always better than Kentucky decks. Quality has just gone down the drain lately! FALSE
It took a little while for the factory in Erlanger, Kentucky to begin printing high quality decks like its Ohio counterpart, but we are now at a point where Kentucky decks are actually superior in terms of quality control. For most of the higher-end decks, gone completely are rough and uneven edges. Backs are much more centered now as well, and the available stocks are optimized to last and are absolutely wonderful. In fact, unlike the old Ohio decks which had a nasty tendency to "bow" and create a U-shape in the deck (making flourishing a nightmare), Kentucky decks are known for how flat the cards are. No bowing, no contortions.


 This is very much the case.  The late Ohio decks were noticeably lower in quality than the current Kentucky decks, assuming all other factors to be equal (Q-level, paper type, etc.).  This was especially the case with the late Ohio sheet-fed press decks, as I described above.
 
 
MYTH9 | The USPCC minimum run for a custom deck is now 5,000. TRUE
The number of decks that is a minimum requirement from the USPCC for printing is changing constantly. As of now, this minimum is 5,000 decks. Special deals are often arranged with the USPCC and you can print less but it costs significantly more to do so, and not as many options are available.


 Since this posting, the minimum has been lowered to 2,500.  Subject to change with the weather and the whims of USPC's executives...
 
 
MYTH10 | The new "Standard Bicycles" are simply nowhere near as good as the old "Rider Backs" from Ohio! TRUE
The "Bicycle Standard" decks have a much lower quality control than their old counterparts. Riderbacks are still made in mass production with high standards for quality, but you aren't as likely to find them in your local department store anymore.


 The "classic box" Rider Backs are NOT easy to find these days.  If they're still making them, USPC's keeping it an awfully big secret.  I only see "Standard" boxes now.

But, should you want a better quality deck, there are other options, many of which exceed even the quality of the "classic" box decks from Ohio:

- There's still a lot of Richard Turner "gold seal" Rider Backs around.  Traditionally cut and printed on Bee Casino stock.  Most shops still carry them for $5/pack, so they cost a little more, but far less than the majority of custom decks on the market.

- Aside from the box reveals, a pack of the CARC "Professional" Rider Backs is practically identical to the Turner decks.  Better still, they also come in Ivory Finish as well as Air Cushion, in the event you prefer smoother-textured cards.  Smoother cards provide more resistance between each of the cards, making them great for intricate cuts, aerial stunts involving tossed packets and easier double- and triple-lifts.

- The two look-alike decks on the market, the Mandolin Backs and the Maiden Backs, are of equal or better quality than classic-box Rider Backs, they're traditionally cut, and you can buy newly-made gaffs for them with altered backs, something that's no longer available for Rider Backs.
 
 
MYTH11 | The USPCC offers tons of different finishes! FALSE
Contrary to popular belief, the USPCC does not offer a large variety of finishes. Actually, there are only two kinds of coatings you can use on a deck of cards manufactured by the USPCC: Magic finish and Air Cushion finish. Cambric, Linoid, Linen, 909 Premium, Plastic Coated - these are just written on the box but either no longer exist (Linoid), or never existed in the first place (909 Premium). Unless you print a deck under the Bicycle brand, the USPCC actually allows you to write any made up finish name on the side of your box.


Alex's words are all too true.  But there was a third, experimental finish that was used on some of Alex's Vortex decks.  So Alex, what was the verdict regarding those decks?  Is USPC going to go forward with that finish or have they shelved it (or is it still being tested)?

At some point in time, there were distinctly different finishes used on different decks - it's where names like Cambric, Air Cushion, Linoid, Linen and High Finish all came from.  The thing is, though, that not only was it cheaper to replace all of those finishes with a single finish, it turned out that the "standard" finish now used, being of a more-modern composition, is actually in most cases superior to the original finishes that bore those (and other) names.  However, the newer finish is also known for being fantastic out of the box, but not lasting as long.  From the perspective of USPC, this is a good thing - decks wear out faster today than decades ago, meaning people buy replacements more often and they sell more decks.

"Apocalypse" and "Premium 909" finishes are just brand names dreamed up by the companies that made those decks.  So are any other variant finish names you see these days.

Also, take note that simply because a deck says "Air Cushion", "Ivory", etc., that doesn't necessarily mean it has the "standard" finish on it.  During the early stage of the transition to using Magic Finish on all their decks, many of Ellusionist's decks still said "Air Cushion" on the box despite being coated with Magic Finish.  The first-ever deck to use Magic Finish, the Gold Arcane deck, says Air Cushion Finish on every single box made.  CARC produced one of the Acorn Back decks in three versions, all using black and metallic silver inks, all marked as either "Cambric" or "Ivory", all made using Magic Finish.  CARC only used that finish because of the silver ink, and preferred using the classic Bee finish names.  (To date, the Ivory version of that deck is the only one ever made using Magic Finish on a smooth-textured stock.)
 
 
MYTH12 | The "finish" on a deck refers to the "dimpling" pattern pressed into the cards! FALSE
The finish on a deck of cards actually refers to the type of coating used on the cards in question. The dimpling has no real name, and a deck of cards either has the dimpling or does not. Cards that do not have the dimpling are commonly referred to as "smooth finish" despite the fact that the coating/finish applied can be Air-Cushion as well.

Many moons ago, the dimpling patterns were indeed made by using dimpled cotton or linen rollers to apply the finish.  That process was expensive - rollers had to be replaced frequently, resulting in a fair amount of down time for the press and spending on a lot of extra rollers.  It's why a Jerry's Nugget card has a dimpled finish on one side and a smooth finish on the other.

Today, to save money, steel rollers are used for applying finish, and the paper is either made smooth or dimpled during the layering process when the paper is pressed into card stock.  Two separate paper rolls are run though a machine where a glue is applied that's laced throughout with graphite - this makes the cards opaque rather than translucent.  When they are pressed together, they're either dimpled with steel rollers containing many fine points on them that deboss the paper while being sandwiched together, or they're left smooth by using smooth steel rollers.  This is the major reason why the resolution of what gets printed on a dimpled card is limited - the surface being inked isn't smooth and can distort very fine detail art.

OK, gang, so how did I do?  :))
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #84 on: October 11, 2012, 07:00:00 AM »
 

FluffyKitten

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Bicycle and Aristocrat are the same price, Bee is a little more.

ok, this is my question:
how much more does printing on bee stock cost? 1%, 10%, 25% more? because it feels to me like bee (casino?) cards lasts much longer and feels much better in the hand for playing than does bicycle but most custom decks seem to print on bicycle rather than bee stock?

is it all in my head that bees feel a lot better than bicycle and last longer?

are there other reasons why makers of custom decks would choose bicycle stock over bee ?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 07:01:55 AM by FluffyKitten »
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #85 on: October 11, 2012, 09:12:16 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Bicycle and Aristocrat are the same price, Bee is a little more.

ok, this is my question:
how much more does printing on bee stock cost? 1%, 10%, 25% more? because it feels to me like bee (casino?) cards lasts much longer and feels much better in the hand for playing than does bicycle but most custom decks seem to print on bicycle rather than bee stock?

is it all in my head that bees feel a lot better than bicycle and last longer?

are there other reasons why makers of custom decks would choose bicycle stock over bee ?


Bee stock is indeed more expensive, though not insanely so.  Nowadays, USPC is down to only two stocks, Bicycle and Bee Casino, available in two versions each: smooth and embossed (with the little air-pocket dimples in the paper).  USPC pricing tends to literally change with the seasons, as does their options and volume discounts.  The most current pricing I have is nearly a year old, therefore likely to be totally out-of-date.


Bicycle stock is more than simply less-expensive.  Bicycle stock has certain handling properties that Bee Casino doesn't.  Bee is strong, thick and heavy, while Bicycle can be more supple while still providing good spring and strength.  Many custom deck makers use Bicycle stock over Bee for certain projects - HOPC's two biggest in-house brands, the Crown Deck and the NOC Deck, are both made with Bicycle stock and Magic Finish.


One of the factors in the higher cost of Bee decks is that due to the thickness of the stock, USPC farms out the manufacture of the tuck boxes to third-party contractors, which increases the cost.  They lack the ability (for reasons unknown) to print the correct box for Bee decks.  Casinos use Bee Casino because not only is it strong and highly durable, but it's also traditional.  Gamblers are traditionalists, and they don't like a great deal of change.


But remember that casinos are interested in one thing and one thing only - professional gaming, period.  And even with that, Bee is not as often seen at poker tables these days - it's more frequently used at games like blackjack, where the gamblers never actually make contact with the cards.  For poker, the preference is a plastic deck in bridge size - they're tougher to mark and otherwise alter, and they're washable and reusable.  The World Series of Poker doesn't use a single paper deck, nor are any of them actually "poker-sized" (nowadays referred to as "standard size").


For other, more diverse applications, there would be some desire for decks with different properties.  Which is why there's not just one card stock for all decks.  The only legitimate reason I can think of for USPC to reduce the variety of available stocks as they have would have more to do with costs of keeping a more diverse inventory than anything else - aside from custom-manufactured decks, the vast majority of their output uses either Bee Casino or Bicycle card stock.  Tally Ho is practically a boutique brand, since outside of a magic shop, the only place you'll find it is New York City; Aristocrat decks haven't been broadly available for a few decades; Bee playing cards, outside of casino use, are more popular in Asia than America because when it comes to playing cards Asians prefer quality while Americans go for acceptable quality at lower price (and sometimes they even sacrifice the quality).  Aviators are simply smooth-stock Bikes with a different back, as are Streamlines - Aviators are rarely seen outside of airports while Streamlines are practically the store brand of WalMart, also not often seen elsewhere.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 09:14:21 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2012, 11:55:30 AM »
 

FluffyKitten

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thanks so much for such an awesome and detailed answer so fast!

now to another question,

is there any big difference between a bee deck to and one from say 1989-1992? (My formative years which were spent playing spades with red bee decks at home and at the cafeteria at school.) as i was thinking of trying to get some bee decks from this era, but it might not be worth the trouble is they are largely unchanged?
 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #87 on: October 12, 2012, 02:03:07 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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thanks so much for such an awesome and detailed answer so fast!

now to another question,

is there any big difference between a bee deck to and one from say 1989-1992? (My formative years which were spent playing spades with red bee decks at home and at the cafeteria at school.) as i was thinking of trying to get some bee decks from this era, but it might not be worth the trouble is they are largely unchanged?


Well, if you're talking about the standard "Bee Diamond Back" decks found on sale in a variety of stores all over the country, then there's probably some differences but not enough to really be noticeable.  The biggest difference would be that the papers used today have both pre- and post-consumer recycled content in them, with the percentage getting larger as the years go by.  This has the unfortunate effect of degrading the paper quality - more re-pulped paper, less fiber from new wood.  There also may be some slight changes in the chemical formulation of the finish.


But as I stated, in all likelihood, none of these changes would be radical enough that you'd be able to tell the difference between the deck you used twenty-five years ago and the same make and model sold today.


One caveat: stay away from the "99-cent" stores when purchasing Bee decks.  There's a rash of cheaply-made counterfeits imported from China that have been making the rounds - the quality is horrible compared to the real thing.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #88 on: October 13, 2012, 06:31:47 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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I missed your long posts, Don :p I was just wondering, when you say nowadays there are basically only Bicycle and Bee casino stocks in use, what happenned to Standard Bee and Aristocrats stocks?
 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #89 on: October 14, 2012, 03:49:07 AM »
 

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I missed your long posts, Don :p I was just wondering, when you say nowadays there are basically only Bicycle and Bee casino stocks in use, what happenned to Standard Bee and Aristocrats stocks?


They're no longer being made.  You can get some variation out of the stocks with the humidity of the stock room and the pressure with which the "sandwich" of paper layers is put together, but Bicycle and Bee Casino are it now.  You might as well just call them "standard" and "casino".


This comes to me from a company that does a lot of custom deck work with USPC.  They also mentioned that Magic Finish is now the default finish for custom decks, offered at no extra charge any more.  To get "standard" finish, you actually have to request it.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #90 on: October 14, 2012, 07:23:42 PM »
 

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That's a bummer... Aristocrat and standard Bee stocks were actually my favorite of the four types of stocks: although I really like the NOCs, bicycle stock and magic finish, I loved the lightness and softness of the aristocrat stock, and the durability of the bee stock without having an extremely thick one like the casino stock. And so are the Aristocrats sold at T11 out of print or do they now have standard stock instead?
 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #91 on: October 14, 2012, 09:11:53 PM »
 

john

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I missed your long posts, Don :p I was just wondering, when you say nowadays there are basically only Bicycle and Bee casino stocks in use, what happenned to Standard Bee and Aristocrats stocks?


They're no longer being made.  You can get some variation out of the stocks with the humidity of the stock room and the pressure with which the "sandwich" of paper layers is put together, but Bicycle and Bee Casino are it now.  You might as well just call them "standard" and "casino".


When did this happen?
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2012, 12:23:41 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I missed your long posts, Don :p I was just wondering, when you say nowadays there are basically only Bicycle and Bee casino stocks in use, what happenned to Standard Bee and Aristocrats stocks?


They're no longer being made.  You can get some variation out of the stocks with the humidity of the stock room and the pressure with which the "sandwich" of paper layers is put together, but Bicycle and Bee Casino are it now.  You might as well just call them "standard" and "casino".


When did this happen?


No long, but I don't have an exact date.  My info isn't direct from USPC but from a customer of theirs.


There's also that new stuff used in (among other decks) the Bicycle Eco Edition and the Bicycle Archangels.  It's supposed to be 100% recycled and they use vegetable-based inks and starch-based lamination.  But for all I know, that IS the current-issue Bicycle stock...
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2012, 12:30:13 AM »
 

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No long, but I don't have an exact date.  My info isn't direct from USPC but from a customer of theirs.


If memory serves me correct the Mechanic deck is the last well known deck with bee stock. As are Ornate with aristocrat. Could you ask your buddy Kevin what they plan on doing when they have to reprint? Also who is this customer, if you don't mind me asking.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2012, 01:20:16 AM »
 

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No long, but I don't have an exact date.  My info isn't direct from USPC but from a customer of theirs.


If memory serves me correct the Mechanic deck is the last well known deck with bee stock. As are Ornate with aristocrat. Could you ask your buddy Kevin what they plan on doing when they have to reprint? Also who is this customer, if you don't mind me asking.


Sounds like you already know...


Bee stock is still around - but just the Bee Casino version.  As far as reprints of the Mechanic Deck, you'd have to ask Jimmy K or HOPC.


As I said, this isn't first-hand information.  You could always go to the source and ask Bill Schildman at USPC Custom.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2012, 07:50:08 AM »
 

john

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Sounds like you already know...


Bee stock is still around - but just the Bee Casino version.  As far as reprints of the Mechanic Deck, you'd have to ask Jimmy K or HOPC.


As I said, this isn't first-hand information.  You could always go to the source and ask Bill Schildman at USPC Custom.


I guess i do?

Ill be sire to ask Jimmy and Randy what they plan on doing.

But all of us haven't spoken to him like you have.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2012, 01:16:36 AM »
 

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That's a bummer... Aristocrat and standard Bee stocks were actually my favorite of the four types of stocks: although I really like the NOCs, bicycle stock and magic finish, I loved the lightness and softness of the aristocrat stock, and the durability of the bee stock without having an extremely thick one like the casino stock. And so are the Aristocrats sold at T11 out of print or do they now have standard stock instead?

Sorry - this question seemed to slip through the cracks.

The Aristocrats sold by T11 are not made by T11.  This is a standard USPC deck that T11 is simply reselling, just as they do for Bees, Tally-Ho and Bicycle Rider Backs.  There was, to my knowledge, one big print run for a healthy number of decks, and those decks were made on Aristocrat stock, which was still available at the time.

Any new decks (as in newly-made) that advertise "Aristocrat stock" are not being made on such stock - unless USPC has since changed its mind and decided to revive that product.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2012, 04:58:58 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I got a PM from Doris earlier this morning, which I'm reposting here with her permission.  It covers a lot of information that I thought other neophyte collectors would find worthwhile, so I felt it best to answer her questions here for all to read.

Thanks, Doris!

Dear Don,

Sorry to bother you! May I seek your advice on the above topic please?

From the "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks - I read your post saying the Bicycle Professional Deck is the better quantity bicycle rider back at the market now. I am in the market looking for some good quantity decks for practices use - bought the following:
1. "Rider Back" made from Ohio (the box said, but inside from the AoS, it was made from KY), they were OK, better than standard backs and cost AUD$5/deck, only bought 2 bricks, not sure should I be using them as practice deck.
2. Master Deck - bought 12 (some blue and red), opened a deck of blue, this is better than standard back but not as good as Rider back from KY. After awhile they clumped together. Not sure if it is just the blue deck (someone say the red one is better), it says on E site that Master Deck is 7 times better/last longer than standard back. But that was not my experience, it is better but NOT 7 times! Cost AUD$6.xx/deck
3. Standard deck - not good at all, cost AUD$3.30/deck.

I'm assuming when you say "quantity" you're also talking about quality - you want a deck that good for practicing and purchasing in bulk.

Of those three here's what I have for you:

1 - the Rider Backs with Cincinnati on the box but Erlanger on the guarantee joker are from the new factory's transition period, usually printed in 2009 or 2010.  They have a black USPC seal on the box instead of a blue one - when you see that on a Cincinnati box, there's a good chance that it was made in either location.

Decks that came from USPC during the transition tended to be of a bit rougher quality - there was a "shakedown" period at the new factory while they were getting the new equipment up and running to capacity.  The quality of these decks are generally considered somewhat inferior to both late Cincinnati decks and "Standard" decks from Kentucky.

2 - Masters from Ellusionist are actually good stuff.  They never went through an "Air Cushion" phase in their manufacturing like a lot of other E decks did.  They came originally in UV500 stock with "Air Flow" finish (just another brand name for air cushion, really), but it was the stock on those that made the difference.  The decks marked "Air Cushion" without UV500 were made on the no-longer available Bicycle Casino stock - not as good as UV500, but better than standard Bicycle.  Now, they come with Performance Coating on Bee Casino stock.

Since the Masters went straight from UV500 to Bee Casino, either version of that deck should be a top-notch deck.  You may have simply had a bum pack - it happens now and then.  The Performance Coating is Magic Finish under the original name the product was using while it was still in the testing phase - E liked it so much better than the name Magic Finish that they kept it.  I know some have complained that Magic Finish isn't as durable as Air Cushion, but I've yet to see this for myself.

3 - "Standard" Bicycle decks are the exact same decks as Bicycle Rider Backs in an uglier box - period.  Initially the quality wasn't good - remember what I said about the transition period.  But since then, this has improved considerably.  While hardly "bulletproof", these decks are better than both the transition decks of 2009-10 and the late Ohio decks of the latter half of the 2000s decade.  They started using a slightly thinner stock - some swear by this stock, others consider it inferior - but the manufacturing processes are superior now to the previously mentioned decks.

If you wanted a good practice deck, any of these should suit you.  The Standards are actually cheaper where you are than where I am - buying individually from a local shop, I'd typically pay around US$4.00 for "Standards", and the US$ and AU$ are trading at almost exactly 1:1 the last time I looked.  Masters, while more costly, will give you superior durability - but since they're thicker, you'll find transitioning to thinner decks a little jarring unless you perform with thicker decks as well.  Cross-training - using a variety of thicknesses - is always good for the versatile performer!

Quote
I am thinking of trying some Bicycle Professional from CARC, but they come in "Ivory" or "Cambric/Air-Cushion". I have read somewhere saying mix "Ivory" + "Air-Cushion" can make some cool trick. Is this true? I googled "Ivory" + "Cambric" could not find anything regarding cool trick. Do you think it is a good idea to buy a mix brick of these or should I just get 12 "Air-Cushion"? I mainly want to do some "card magic trick" and "fanning" practices with these decks.
Or should I focus on the Richard Turner "gold seal" Rider Backs as you mentioned they are similar to Professional.

"Air Cushion" and "Cambric" are trademark names for the same thing: standard USPC finish on an embossed (dimpled) playing card.  "Ivory" is the same thing in a smooth playing card, no dimpling.  The dimples improve glide between cards and helps with fanning - most smooth decks (Aladdins being the major exception) don't fan well).  But a smooth card is stiffer and better for certain sleights where you want cards to have a small amount of resistance keeping them together.

To me, the Richard Turner Gold Seal Bicycles and the CARC Professional Bicycles in Air-Cushion are essentially the same thing, the only difference being that the Turners are both out of print (though still cheaply available) and come in blue as well as red while the CARC decks are red only.  The CARC deck tuck boxes also have two card reveals, one printed in the tuck box and one printed in place of a standard UPC bar code on the bottom.  Both decks are made on Bee Casino grade stock using Air Cushion (standard) finish and are traditionally cut for easier shuffling and table faros.

The Ivory CARC Pro-Bikes, however, are a very different animal.  Because of the lack of dimples, the smooth stock is less pliable and significantly stiffer - they're a beast to shuffle, requiring a firm grip and strong hands.  I'd say get perhaps one or two Ivory if you get any at all, just to see how much you love or hate them, before investing in them by the brick.

Quote
I recently bought a brick of Ace Fulton (Blue + Red + Midnight Fulton deal) without knowing that they are all ivory! I was blinded by the deal and the brick box  :-[ Now I thinking if I should go and get a brick of the Orange + Brown from an ebayer to marry these Blue+Red...
May I also ask is there any decks from CARC that I should NOT buy please? (Bad quantity decks)

I personally haven't run into any really bum decks from CARC.  The director of CARC, Bill Kalush, has a reputation for being a real stickler for quality.  I'm personally fond of the Pro-Bikes and the Bee Erdnase Silver and Black Acorn Back in Ivory - it's the first (and as far as I know, only) smooth-finish deck to use Magic Finish.  In general, CARC doesn't use Magic Finish, but because this deck (and the two Air Cushion counterparts to it) had metallic ink, to not use it would have meant letting the deck's performance take a hit.

Quote
I like the "White Lions" stock (but not the back design) , they feel so good :) Is there any decks on the market in reasonable price similar to the Lions please?

For a quality practice deck, one that's even suitable for performance (be it for cardistry or for magic), there are some cheaper models that it would be hard to go wrong with.  For a deck with a firm feel but not as stiff as Bee Casino, try using Tally Ho, available in two colors and two back designs that are currently in print.  They're not as easy to obtain even in the US - USPC considers them a regional brand and as such, they're only sold in magic shops and within New York City - but they're reasonably priced and of good quality.  Many magicians and cardists swear by them.

If you'd like something with a more pliable, supple feel to it, try the Aristocrat 727 Banknote reprints.  The Aristocrat stock used in this deck is a softer version of the stock used in the Tally Hos.

If you're looking for something in-between, believe it or not, late-model Bicycle decks are good to work with.  If the quality control is a bother for you and you're willing to spend just a bit extra, the Crown Deck from the Blue Crown and HOPC uses the same stock, printed at Q1 and printed with Arrco faces - some hate these faces, while others like the "throwback" feel to them and how they're immediately recognizable but not yet another deck with USPC standard faces.  For a dash more performance, the NOC deck from HOPC should fit the bill nicely - another Bicycle stock deck, this one uses Magic Finish and is probably one of the cheapest decks on the market that does, though for some the minimalist design takes getting used to.  NOCs use USPC standard faces and, as a nod to magicians, come with two identical jokers and an extra Queen of Hearts.

Quote
May I also ask if you agree with the rating on this site please?
http://www.custom-playing-card.com/best.html
They rated Fournier 605 a 5 stars deck.
Would it be similar to Bicycle Tactical Field playing cards?

As far as the site - I've seen this site before.  These ratings, like any ratings, are highly subjective.  One man's gold is another man's garbage.

I'm very fond of the Fournier 605 deck and even had the pleasure of visiting Lee Asher at his home in Toronto earlier this year.  While Fournier was purchased in the past few decades by USPC, their manufacturing processes are nothing like what's used here by USPC.  Excellent registration from front to back, very precisely cut and the stock is so durable, well-made and well-finished, you can actually WASH the cards by briefly dunking them in water and wiping them down, something you'd never dare try with any USPC-made deck.  They're excellent for magic, card playing and doing flashy cuts.  However, like most smooth-surfaced decks, they don't fan very well at all.

Quote
May I ask one more thing please?
Have you came across this?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/REN-PLAYING-CARDS-limited-edition-RARE-like-MOTH-WATCHER-same-factory-made-/181014934967?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a2554b5b7&_uhb=1#ht_1906wt_1295
Is it as they stated from the same company of Moth and Watcher? MSM??

Thank you very much for your kind attention, Don!
Sorry for taking up your time!

Best regards,
Doris

Actually, Doris, I spotted that ad myself yesterday and was seriously tempted to make a purchase!

There's one issue that I have regarding that claim you mentioned.  Moth/Myth and the Watcher are both designed by "Misdirection's Mystery" (MSM), which as you know is a company based in Taiwan.  I recently spoke with Kete Moon asking him about this company and who does their printing.  Unfortunately, Kete informed me that MSM keeps the identity of their printer a closely-guarded industry secret and that he was not at liberty to reveal the name.

To me, unfortunately, that means this seller could claim the cards were made by the same printer, and I'd have no way of knowing whether the claim was true or false.  It's not the seller's fault, but it still doesn't make the claim any more provable.

If you do happen to get this deck, please, let me know what you think of it!
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #98 on: November 12, 2012, 03:04:11 AM »
 

DC

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Thank you so much Don for your well explained answers!

Sorry, I meant "quality" but typed "quantity"!

Now I would not buy a mix brick of Bicycle Professional, I will go mainly for Air-Cushion instead.
Thanks for pointed out "Richard Turner Gold Seal Bicycles" has TWO colours! I might go to the link that you posted earlier to get some Red + Blue. I will also give the Master Deck another go - will open another deck to see if this one clumps easily. (Just got some more with the Sultan Treasury decks today from E). Will start to play with a Crown deck to see. Most of the decks that I collected, I just opened ONE of them and see/enjoy the design but have not actually play with them, don't want to damage them!

Regarding the REN deck, will let you know when I got them. Just ordered some decks (Myth/Moth) from this EBayer, but I did not include the REN.

Thank you so much, Don, for taking your time to give me so much details on different decks!
 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2012, 06:02:01 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Thank you so much Don for your well explained answers!

Sorry, I meant "quality" but typed "quantity"!

Now I would not buy a mix brick of Bicycle Professional, I will go mainly for Air-Cushion instead.
Thanks for pointed out "Richard Turner Gold Seal Bicycles" has TWO colours! I might go to the link that you posted earlier to get some Red + Blue. I will also give the Master Deck another go - will open another deck to see if this one clumps easily. (Just got some more with the Sultan Treasury decks today from E). Will start to play with a Crown deck to see. Most of the decks that I collected, I just opened ONE of them and see/enjoy the design but have not actually play with them, don't want to damage them!

Regarding the REN deck, will let you know when I got them. Just ordered some decks (Myth/Moth) from this EBayer, but I did not include the REN.

Thank you so much, Don, for taking your time to give me so much details on different decks!

Hey, don't sweat it.

If I recall, Alex has said that Gold Seal Bicycles are all that he practices with.  Despite being out of print, they're still fairly common and only slightly more expensive than a pack of Standards here in the States.

If you're getting your Masters direct from E with your order of the Treasury Edition of Sultan Republic, then it's nearly guaranteed that you'll be getting the latest version of those decks: Bee Casino stock and Magic Finish.  BTW: E did an excellent job with the Treasury Edition; despite adding the weathered look like the Series 1800 decks, they still remain completely symmetrical (1800s have an obvious one-way back due to the irregular placement of the stain/dirt effects).

Keep me posted on that REN deck - I'm still very tempted to get it myself!
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Re: The New Deck Report - UPDATED 6-12x/week
« Reply #100 on: November 13, 2012, 04:20:47 PM »
 

john

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E doesn't use Bee Casino stock anymore.

http://imgur.com/CIcWh
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Re: Re: The New Deck Report - UPDATED 6-12x/week
« Reply #101 on: November 13, 2012, 05:06:14 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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E doesn't use Bee Casino stock anymore.

http://imgur.com/CIcWh


I see - and I've seen that image before.  Looks like they're using standard Bicycle stock now.  Has anyone noticed this on new printings of the older decks?


I'm moving this to the "Fact or Fiction" topic - it's a better fit there.
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Re: Re: The New Deck Report - UPDATED 6-12x/week
« Reply #102 on: November 13, 2012, 07:28:11 PM »
 

john

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E doesn't use Bee Casino stock anymore.

http://imgur.com/CIcWh


I see - and I've seen that image before.  Looks like they're using standard Bicycle stock now.  Has anyone noticed this on new printings of the older decks?


I'm moving this to the "Fact or Fiction" topic - it's a better fit there.

You saw it from me :D
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Re: Re: The New Deck Report - UPDATED 6-12x/week
« Reply #103 on: November 13, 2012, 11:19:07 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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You saw it from me :D

Hey, when you're my age, the details will start getting fuzzy for you, too!  :))

Thanks for the redirect.  I would have thought that they would have used thicker stocks for the older decks, from Arcane backwards through the product line.  Who doesn't remember some people griping about how thick the Masters were and how difficult to handle.  Now I'm curious to refresh my stock of E decks...
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #104 on: November 19, 2012, 06:54:51 PM »
 

xela

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Hey Don, without revealing too much about how I sign my decks under the cellophane:

Quote
With the purchase of a $50 resealer machine and the cellophane sheets with tear strips, you can remove the factory-issue cellophane, sign it, then reseal it for later sale or giveaway.

While that is one method, I sign them under the USPCC factory cellophane without the use of a resealer machine. I do own one, but that's for wrapping my vintage pretties to prevent them from taking more environmental damage. :)

The cellophane you can buy for resealing decks comes with a clear tear away strip that is positioned slightly lower than USPCC cellophane's. It's also MUCH smaller, and so it's really easy to tell a resealed deck from a factory sealed deck if you know what to look for.

The Vortex SUC decks all have the original red tear strip too. :D

You were right about one thing though, it's not a feasible process for mass production in any way. It takes me about an hour to make one and that's after spending dozens of hours perfecting the process (and there is STILL room for improvement!)
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #105 on: January 23, 2013, 03:42:31 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I've been doing some thinking on USPC card stocks recently...

Someone with inside knowledge recently told me that yes, USPC only offers Bicycle and Bee Casino stock at this point in the game - but with a large caveat.

USPC uses the same paper to make the card stock for both models.  This card stock is fed through a press using two rolls - one for the front, one for the back - and from there, the graphite-laced glue is added and large steel rollers squish the sheets into the paper sandwich we know today.  It's also at this point that the stock is either left flat for smooth decks or embossed for "air cushion, linen, linoid, etc." dimpled-surface decks.

The amount of pressure applied at the rollers, humidity levels, variations in the quality and thickness of the paper and who knows how many other factors all have a hand in just how thick or thin, heavy or light the finished product will be.  In fact, because of there being so many variables affecting the final product, USPC stopped describing their stocks using the industry-standard grams per square inch meter (gsm) and instead offer thickness of stock as their measuring stick.

But the thing is, the standard for Bicycle stock and the standard for Bee Casino stock now covers a fairly wide range of thicknesses - and there's even some OVERLAP between the two categories!  It's actually possible to end up with a Bicycle stock deck that's thicker than some Bee decks, and a Bee deck that's thinner than some Bicycle decks.  It's as if USPC threw in the towel about being precise on just how heavy a stock will be and instead of offering several stocks with small thickness ranges, they just offer two with a broader range in each.

In a way, you could picture this in your head and say, "Well, in a sense, all those other stocks that we knew and loved are really still being made - they're just being lumped into larger categories and you can never really know in advance precisely which decks will have a thickness consistent with, for example, Tally Ho stock, Bicycle Casino stock or Aristocrat stock."  To make life easier on themselves, however, USPC will only offer you a range - pick Bicycle, the range is from X1 to X2; pick Bee Casino and the range is from Y1 to Y2.  You can't pick the thickness you want with any greater a degree of accuracy than that.  And as mentioned above, X2 falls within the range of Y1 and Y2, just as Y1 falls within the range of X1 and X2.  I'm going to try including a primitive but effective graphic to illustrate this.

If you ask me, USPC's mission of being the best card company, period, seems to be taking a back seat to making acceptable cards while cutting costs and making it easier on themselves - ever since the company changed hands so many times in the latter third of the last century.

It's almost enough to make me want to create my own playing card company!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 03:02:09 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #106 on: January 25, 2013, 10:37:30 AM »
 

Russell CircleCityCards

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Hey Don most of that above isn't quite right.

After touring the factory floor, talking with line employees and seeing first hand how the decks are made I have found a few discrepancies with your previous post. To over simplify I will go through the whole process...
(colors indicate a new 'area')
1. Two rolls of single-ply paper get fed into a hundred foot long machine.
2. The first part of the machine makes the paper/glue/paper sandwich.
3. There are a few rolls that compress (NOT IMPORTANT) to keep everything together.
4. Still in the 100ft long machine, it finishes in the oven/dryer.

5. Move to the printing machine.
6. Rollers print the design on the front and back.
7. Finish coating.
8. Embossing or Smoothing machine*
9. Cut into 'uncut' sheet size (56 cards on one page)

10. Sits on warehouse floor until they are done printing all the decks for the week.
11. Printing and sandwiching/drying machine shut down, cutting machines start up.
12. Cards are cut into wide strips and are punched out into cards.
14. cards are gathered and placed into boxes
15. seal machine then cello machine
17. put in 'bricks' then by hand placed into 'gross' boxes



* this simple machine is just two rolling drums with the paper being fed in between them. You can set the machine to different pounds of pressure which decides how thick the final product will be. This is why I roll my eyes when people compare thickness of decks. True, a casino deck will be thicker 99.99% of the time. I hate it when people compare two standard decks together and say one is better because it is thicker. That is BS and just an opinion. Setting the machine for a thinner card will make it more snappier and harder to bend. Setting it thicker will allow the card to bend easier. It's a personal preference, neither is right or wrong.

As for Casino vs Standard, I'll have to go through my emails and notes to myself, but I know how you described above is partially incorrect.  They are not the same thing only squeezed differently.

---edit---
As always, I might have made a small mistake in the exact order of operations, but by-and-large the above is correct.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 10:38:51 AM by Russell CircleCityCards »
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #107 on: January 25, 2013, 06:09:44 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Well, much of what I was talking about was conjecture, based on a few simple facts that I knew.  I was bound to be wrong at times.  I do appreciate your input here, Russ - you're among the few who would have more first-hand insight as to how this all works.

I have been told by Lee Asher in the business that the pressure applied can make a difference in the finished product.

And there's a difference in the order IF you're using the sheet-fed press.  The paper gets cut into sheets before it gets printed.  It's the reverse on the web press.

I've been told that the paper gets embossed before printing - it happens at the time the paper layers are glued.  Is it possible that the process is handled differently for web press and sheet-fed press projects?
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #108 on: January 25, 2013, 06:43:37 PM »
 

Russell CircleCityCards

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I was describing the web-press process. The sheet fed is a bit different, cut before the printing. I don't recall if it is embossed before or after printing, surely it must be after otherwise the print would come out funny.

Lee is a great guy and he knows his shit. We both agree there is a difference in how a card feel when pressed tightly or not. Again, neither is good or bad, they are opinions based on how YOU use the deck.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 06:44:36 PM by Russell CircleCityCards »
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #109 on: January 25, 2013, 06:54:56 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I was describing the web-press process. The sheet fed is a bit different, cut before the printing. I don't recall if it is embossed before or after printing, surely it must be after otherwise the print would come out funny.

Lee is a great guy and he knows his shit. We both agree there is a difference in how a card feel when pressed tightly or not. Again, neither is good or bad, they are opinions based on how YOU use the deck.

I forget who it was that told me this, but for a sheet-fed deck, USPC supposedly limits the fineness of the detail in any given design on embossed paper, because when printed too finely, the embossings will show more prominently and ruin the detail work.  But again, I could be wrong on this - I probably forgot more things about cards than I can remember!  :))
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #110 on: March 04, 2013, 08:42:26 AM »
 

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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #111 on: March 04, 2013, 08:42:29 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I promised I do:

My blog about playing cards – http://playingcardcollector.wordpress.com

Several additional words about it:
http://playingcardcollector.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/this-blog-about-this-blog-1st-month-on-wordpress/

This is a blog worth catching up on - for new decks as well as vintage.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #112 on: March 05, 2013, 08:44:09 AM »
 

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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #113 on: April 15, 2013, 05:35:11 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I've been doing some thinking on USPC card stocks recently...

Someone with inside knowledge recently told me that yes, USPC only offers Bicycle and Bee Casino stock at this point in the game - but with a large caveat.

USPC uses the same paper to make the card stock for both models.  This card stock is fed through a press using two rolls - one for the front, one for the back - and from there, the graphite-laced glue is added and large steel rollers squish the sheets into the paper sandwich we know today.  It's also at this point that the stock is either left flat for smooth decks or embossed for "air cushion, linen, linoid, etc." dimpled-surface decks.

The amount of pressure applied at the rollers, humidity levels, variations in the quality and thickness of the paper and who knows how many other factors all have a hand in just how thick or thin, heavy or light the finished product will be.  In fact, because of there being so many variables affecting the final product, USPC stopped describing their stocks using the industry-standard grams per square inch meter (gsm) and instead offer thickness of stock as their measuring stick.

But the thing is, the standard for Bicycle stock and the standard for Bee Casino stock now covers a fairly wide range of thicknesses - and there's even some OVERLAP between the two categories!  It's actually possible to end up with a Bicycle stock deck that's thicker than some Bee decks, and a Bee deck that's thinner than some Bicycle decks.  It's as if USPC threw in the towel about being precise on just how heavy a stock will be and instead of offering several stocks with small thickness ranges, they just offer two with a broader range in each.

In a way, you could picture this in your head and say, "Well, in a sense, all those other stocks that we knew and loved are really still being made - they're just being lumped into larger categories and you can never really know in advance precisely which decks will have a thickness consistent with, for example, Tally Ho stock, Bicycle Casino stock or Aristocrat stock."  To make life easier on themselves, however, USPC will only offer you a range - pick Bicycle, the range is from X1 to X2; pick Bee Casino and the range is from Y1 to Y2.  You can't pick the thickness you want with any greater a degree of accuracy than that.  And as mentioned above, X2 falls within the range of Y1 and Y2, just as Y1 falls within the range of X1 and X2.  I'm going to try including a primitive but effective graphic to illustrate this.

If you ask me, USPC's mission of being the best card company, period, seems to be taking a back seat to making acceptable cards while cutting costs and making it easier on themselves - ever since the company changed hands so many times in the latter third of the last century.

It's almost enough to make me want to create my own playing card company!

I'm quoting myself here because I have an addendum to this.

I spoke with some of USPC's larger and smaller custom deck customers and learned something new.  The above generally will apply to small design shops, the ones that produce two or three decks in a year in print runs of 5,000 or less.  Bigger firms have greater options; we're talking about companies that might do about a half-dozen decks or more in a year (counting color/texture variations as separate decks due to the necessity for a separate print run for each) and in larger numbers, large enough to warrant the use of the larger, high-capacity web press.  At USPC, as one would expect in any business, the customer who drops more cash is the customer they're more willing to be flexible with and accommodate.

So, are there other stocks out there?  If you want to really split hairs, there's a near-infinite number of different stocks, if you define a stock as being of a certain grade of paper, sandwiched with a certain amount of glue, pressed together with a certain amount of pressure, stored under certain humidity conditions, weighing a certain number of grams per square inch meter, etc.  Under those criteria, practically every roll of paperboard USPC makes would be considered a different stock from all the others, because it's practically impossible to make an organic, composite material like paper, and more specifically like the source paper they use, that's consistent from batch to batch and roll to roll.  While "the little guy" is told there's two stocks, each falls within a certain thickness range, the ranges overlap, etc., if a big customer says, "I'd like you to do this for my order of (three, four, six, eight) print runs of (10,000 / 20,000 / 30,000) decks each," well...  It's like in the military, when an officer tells a trainee to jump - the only question from the trainee at that point is "How high?"  The more you're spending, the more eager USPC is to jump however high you request - up to a point, of course.

Some prime examples of this:
- David Blaine's White Lions Series A "rainbow edition" purple - created through a transition process from red ink to blue ink on the card backs in mid-run.
- CARC's Professional Bicycle Skull & Bones series "red/black" deck - same as above.
- CARC's Erdnase 216 - created on a unique, smooth stock with a unique coating that Bill Kalush has been developing with USPC over the course of many months and many experimental print runs, the end result being a deck that's thinner than most and has a very different feel to it, unlike anything else USPC produces today.

As sort of a codicil to this addendum, if you're a customer not from the US and looking to make a custom USPC deck, the process becomes at least one degree more complicated as a result of international custom deck orders being handled by the International Department rather than the Custom Department.  I'm sure you guys have heard the headaches that Zenneth Kok had to deal with on the Coterie Bee decks...  It's been a little while since I've been in touch with him, but at that time the issues still hadn't been satisfactorily resolved.  A tip to international designers seeking to make a USPC deck - if you can, find an American business partner to work with, in order to get the Custom Department to handle your project from start to finish.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 03:07:43 AM by Don Boyer »
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Learning about the birds and the "BEE's"
« Reply #114 on: October 05, 2013, 11:04:54 AM »
 

Anthony

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Time for another edition of "Noob Questions" hosted by yours truly  ;)

So as always, trying to do my homework, because while I go with what appeals to me ascetically, it is always a plus to learn about what your adding to your collection.

So, Bee brands, seems these are more of the "Classic" design professional playing cards, used by Casino's etc...OR is it a finish? I see this tossed around here and there, "Bee Casino Finish". I do like the more classic design on the Club Specials Stinger Backs for instance ( I hear the Black version is tough to come by), but what am I really looking at when looking at a Bee Deck? I'll be honest, I'm still kind of figuring out the "Pecking Order" as it were with playing cards, I know USPCC prints most decks, but then you have Bicycle, Bee, Hoyle, Aviator, Km and a few other smaller "Brand" I guess? I think my confusion lies in descriptions such as this " Bicycle XYZ Deck designed by T11, manufactured by USPCC" there seems to be 3 different things going on there.

Maybe an easier example would be the recent Black Book of Cards on Kickstarter. They offered "Bicycle" branded decks, so it's the same deck, but with Bicycle branding...why is this such a bit deal? Or is it?

As always I appreciate the feedback and apologize if this is a simplistic question that I'm making complicated. When I started it seemed it was more like, "OOOHHH, Pretty Cards!" now as I learn more it seems to bread more questions.

Thanks in advance  :)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 08:54:07 PM by Sparkz »
 

Re: Learning about the birds and the "BEE's"
« Reply #115 on: October 05, 2013, 11:28:00 AM »
 

kdklown

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Time for another edition of "Noob Questions" hosted by yours truly  ;)

So as always, trying to do my homework, because while I go with what appeals to me ascetically, it is always a plus to learn about what your adding to your collection.

So, Bee brands, seems these are more of the "Classic" design professional playing cards, used by Casino's etc...OR is it a finish? I see this tossed around here and there, "Bee Casino Finish". I do like the more classic design on the Club Specials Stinger Backs for instance ( I hear the Black version is tough to come by), but what am I really looking at when looking at a Bee Deck? I'll be honest, I'm still kind of figuring out the "Pecking Order" as it were with playing cards, I know USPSS prints most decks, but then you have Bicycle, Bee, Hoyle, Aviator, Km and a few other smaller "Brand" I guess? I think my confusion lies in descriptions such as this " Bicycle XYZ Deck designed by T11, manufactured by USPCC" there seems to be 3 different things going on there.

Maybe an easier example would be the recent Black Book of Cards on Kickstarter. They offered "Bicycle" branded decks, so it's the same deck, but with Bicycle branding...why is this such a bit deal? Or is it?

As always I appreciate the feedback and apologize if this is a simplistic question that I'm making complicated. When I started it seemed it was more like, "OOOHHH, Pretty Cards!" now as I learn more it seems to bread more questions.

Thanks in advance  :)

So I'll prime the pump here for Don.  Don't confuse stocks and finishes.  USPCC offers two different stocks.  Bicycle and Bee.  Bee is the more expensive slightly beefier of the two. 

As far as the Black Book Decks go...  The cards inside the tuck are exactly the same.  It's just the difference between branded and unbranded.  Bicycle branded decks appeal to a specific audience.  Some folks only collect bicycle branded decks.  It's a subset of this community. 

The default for custom made decks is Bicycle stock with magic finish. 

It is possible to have a Bicycle branded deck with Bee stock.  USPCC plays it pretty loose with the terminology you can put on your tuck box so you may come across several bizarre stocks and finishes that don't really exist.  They all boil down to the basic few. 

Check the sticky thread, I think you'll find it at the top of the PCP Forum.  Sheds way more light on this. 

Hope this helped a little. 

EDIT: here's the link to all the knowledge you may desire.
http://aethercards.com/discourse/playing-card-plethora/playing-cards-fact-or-fiction-myths-debunked-here/
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 11:32:26 AM by kdklown »
 

Re: Learning about the birds and the "BEE's"
« Reply #116 on: October 05, 2013, 12:30:28 PM »
 

Anthony

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Thanks kd, yes I've read the Fact or Fiction thread quite a bit. Its making more sence but can still be a bit confusing when your coming in completely green. It seems everyone has a slightly different way of explaining something and within those explanations you can make sence of it all.

I'm sorry if the thread is a bit re dundent.
 

Re: Learning about the birds and the "BEE's"
« Reply #117 on: October 05, 2013, 04:27:58 PM »
 

Mydnyghte

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I'm like you Sparkz, trying to make sense of all this wonderful madness. Like a baby in a titty bar, I just don't know which way to go.

From the Kickstarters I've back, I gathered Bicycle branding is just that; branding. Other than collector appeal, is there really any reason to pay the extra money for the name?

The whole coating thing threw me off too. It seems everyone has their own term for the same thing.
 

Re: Learning about the birds and the "BEE's"
« Reply #118 on: October 05, 2013, 07:55:34 PM »
 

bhong

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As another newbie to the playing card world. I totally understand the confusion. I think half the problem is usage of older terms that are no longer applicable.
 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2013, 12:44:58 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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EDIT: here's the link to all the knowledge you may desire.
http://aethercards.com/discourse/playing-card-plethora/playing-cards-fact-or-fiction-myths-debunked-here/

I've merged this topic with that one - that's really where a meaty discussion like this belongs.

Time for another edition of "Noob Questions" hosted by yours truly  ;)

So as always, trying to do my homework, because while I go with what appeals to me ascetically, it is always a plus to learn about what your adding to your collection.

So, Bee brands, seems these are more of the "Classic" design professional playing cards, used by Casino's etc...OR is it a finish? I see this tossed around here and there, "Bee Casino Finish". I do like the more classic design on the Club Specials Stinger Backs for instance ( I hear the Black version is tough to come by), but what am I really looking at when looking at a Bee Deck? I'll be honest, I'm still kind of figuring out the "Pecking Order" as it were with playing cards, I know USPCC prints most decks, but then you have Bicycle, Bee, Hoyle, Aviator, Km and a few other smaller "Brand" I guess? I think my confusion lies in descriptions such as this " Bicycle XYZ Deck designed by T11, manufactured by USPCC" there seems to be 3 different things going on there.

Maybe an easier example would be the recent Black Book of Cards on Kickstarter. They offered "Bicycle" branded decks, so it's the same deck, but with Bicycle branding...why is this such a bit deal? Or is it?

As always I appreciate the feedback and apologize if this is a simplistic question that I'm making complicated. When I started it seemed it was more like, "OOOHHH, Pretty Cards!" now as I learn more it seems to bread more questions.

Thanks in advance  :)

OK, from the top working my way down...

Bee is considered a classic design.  It's USPC's oldest brand, dating back to before the creation of the company - part of how USPC grew to the monolith that it is was by "the Microsoft method" - find any company doing any good work and buy them!  The "traditional" version sold in stores all over the world is the Bee Diamond Back, with the pattern that's printed into the bleed (past the edge of the cut line, resulting in a borderless card), creating an illusory effect when spread, making it hard to know where one card ends and another begins.  They're still sold in stores this way, but casinos have for the most part dropped that and similar designs.  In addition to the not-entirely-perfect cut on the card back creating what was in essence marked cards, but because many card mechanics took advantage of that visual effect I mentioned to conceal some of their card sleights.  The majority of casino decks today now use a back with a border to it, be it white or some other color, but not a pattern on the edge.  One of the popular designs, used on Bee and old Aristocrat decks created for casinos, was the Stinger Back - basically a Diamond Back with a fade-to-white border.  On casino-designed decks, they were usually accompanied by the casino's name or logo, and a tiny oval with a Bee logo in each corner - hence the name Stingers.  The Aristocrat version, while still called Stingers, had an image of the four suits in the tiny ovals of their decks.

I believe that the Stingers you're referring to are the Theory11 decks.  T11 got permission from USPC to create the first-ever Stinger Back made for a non-casino deck.  In addition to removing the casino names, they did away with the Bee logos on the corners, creating a very simple, elegant back design.  They were originally sold only in black (and just called "Stingers", not the name we know them by today, "Black Stingers" - much like how World War I was "The Great War" until World War II began), and those sold out.  A couple of years later, the Red Stingers were made - same design, new color, very popular.  They were using a stock that's no longer available for custom decks, Aristocrat stock, which has a slightly beefier feel to it and aren't quite as stiff as Bee Casino stock.  Anyway, those, too, are sold out now.  But...it's been noticed that while the original print run of Black Stingers was made in Cincinnati, many decks came on the market labeled that they were made in Erlanger.  It was soon discovered that T11 was still reprinting some of their older decks, but for unknown reasons only selling them through other retailers and not on their own site.  We know of at least one other instance where this occurred, with the Propaganda deck, one of the first designs T11 created.  As people started learning of this, price differentials developed between the Ohio and Kentucky decks, with Kentucky decks fetching a lower price.

In regards to paper stock...

I wrote a rather nice article about them here with an addendum here.  I'll tell you that at one time, there were many, MANY different stocks at USPC - Bicycle (Standard), Bicycle Casino, Bee, Bee Casino, Aristocrat, Tally Ho.  At one time, E was using the Bicycle Casino stock for all of their decks, but they switched to a thinner stock when the company moved to Erlanger due to problems USPC was having getting the thicker stock to print properly on the new hardware.  Tally Ho got the axe early on, and they started using Aristocrat stock for Tally Ho decks.  Then Aristocrat itself was removed.  Lastly, Bee (Standard) was axed, and it was around that time that USPC stopped using the industry standard for measuring the weight of paper, grams per square meter (gsm) and switched to measuring paper by its thickness range instead, with Bicycle being the thinner and Bee Casino the thicker - but as you'll see in the articles linked above, I've learned that there's actually some overlap between the two papers' thickness ranges...

The way most people saw it was that Bicycle was the thinnest and Bee Casino was the thickest, much as today.  Bicycle Casino was a bit thicker and stiffer.  Aristocrat and Tally Ho were about the same thickness, heavier than Bicycle Casino, but Tally Ho was stiffer while Aristocrat was more pliant.  Then came Bee followed by Bee Casino.

Lastly, there was one oddball stock, UV500.  Early Ellusionist decks were marked as having "UV500 Air-Flow Finish".  The UV500 part was the stock name.  It was a heavy stock, on par with something like Tally Ho or perhaps even thicker/stiffer.  What made it unique was that the paper was UV-sensitive - it fluoresced under a UV lamp, a lot like someone wearing a white outfit, making for some inpressive looking cards - ordinary white card stock didn't react at all under blacklight.  It was their go-to stock - until the plant making the paper jacked up the price high enough to make it prohibitively expensive.  I could be mistaken, but I think the last company to use it was David Blaine for his UV-sensitive version of the White Lions Series A in blue.  It was considered one of the "Rainbow Series" decks in that run, the other two being the red deck and the transitional purple deck - that deck shifted gradually in the production run between blue and red, allowing Blaine to have two different deck colors in a single print run.  But I digress...

Now about finishes...

At one time in history, these words meant something and represented actual, different finishes of differing formulae: Cambric Finish, Ivory Finish, Air Cushion Finish, Linoid Finish, Linen Finish, High Finish and probably a few more I don't know about.  Today, we associate these finish names with the different brands that used them: Cambric and Ivory are most often found on Bee decks (Ivory much less so today), Linoid is found on Tally Ho decks, Air Cushion is found on Bicycle decks, etc.

First, let's clear something up that USPC loves to get muddled: a card's finish is actually referring to the embossing more so than the laminate applied to the cards.  Back in the day, USPC's decks were all made on smooth paper, and it was in the laminating process that the embossing was applied (which is probably where people start muddling things, right there).  The laminate was applied to the paper using textured cloth rollers - different fabrics created different textures, so that's where the embossing came from.  It's also why some of the finish names (such as Cambric, Linen, Linoid) are derived from the names of fabrics.  Anyone fortunate enough to own older decks like Jerry's Nugget or the Japanese Friar's Club may notice this difference, especially on the Jerry's - I'm told that it's textured on one side, smooth on the other, which is believed to contribute to the deck's beloved handling characteristics.

I forget when the change took place - it was either late 1970s or early 1980s, probably around the same time they stopped using a traditional cut for their standard decks - but eventually USPC did away with the cloth roller process altogether.  The rollers tended to wear out more quickly and needed frequent replacement, slowing down production.  To the best of my knowledge, they now put the embossing on the paper when the graphite glue is applied, using heavy steel rollers that press into the surface of the paper itself.  (Pasteboard, which is what cards are made of, consists of two layers of paper held together with a layer of glue in between.  The glue is laced with graphite in order to make the cards opaque - they're only translucent without it, allowing one to read the cards from the back under the right lighting.  Some cheap decks today are made without the graphite or with inadequate amounts, which is why some cheap decks will show light through them when held to a lamp.)  There's a video that USPC created for one of the educational/reality networks on cable which shows the manufacturing process.

Today, the only real difference between the "finishes" is the marketing.  Linoid, Cambric, Air Cushion - it's all pretty much different ways of saying the same thing - basically a "standard" finish, which is how USPC refers to it internally.  They all use the same basic laminate and get pressed together in between the same rollers.  (Of course, the smooth decks are pressed between smooth steel rollers...)

But, there is one new wrinkle - what you know as "Magic Finish", a new laminate introduced by the company a couple of years ago.  I've heard some say there's no actual difference, but I've actually noticed that fresh out of the cellophane, a Magic Finish deck has a sharper chemical smell than the standard finish does - my wife can tell the difference at a distance because she likes the smell of Magic Finish!  I can tell it as well.  Crack open a pack of basic Bikes and a pack of some new custom deck and you'll probably notice it as well.  At one time, Magic Finish was an option you had to pay extra for, whereas now, it's the automatic finish selection for custom decks - you actually have to request the "standard" finish laminate.

In addition, particularly in the early days of the finish, many companies had their custom decks labeled using the traditional names rather than calling it Magic Finish.  The very first deck to have Magic Finish on it was the Gold Arcane deck, and it's labeled as "Air Cushion".  The first deck to have Magic Finish and to say so on the tuck box was the Bicycle Cargoyles by Lance Miller.  The first smooth-finish deck to have Magic Finish, to the best of my knowledge, was the black and silver Bee Erdnase 1902 Acorn Back deck in Ivory Finish produced by Bill Kalush at CARC.  It's believed that the creation of the finish was in part motivated by the problems some early metallic-ink decks were having with handling.  Anyone who's handled a Stephen Rook/Diavoli deck knows what I mean.  The cards are pretty nice to look at, but clump like cold, wet mud.

Did you catch my earlier mention of "Traditional Cut"?  As mentioned, circa 1980 plus/minus a few years, USPC stopped using Traditional Cut.  Traditional Cut is what's known as a "face-down" cut, meaning that the individual cards are pressed through the cutting die facing toward the blades.  The beveled edge this created not only made the cards easier to shuffle, but also permitted one to make a table faro, face-down, right out of the box.  For reasons unknown, this required the card sheet to be inverted at some point after printing (and for web press decks, after cutting the sheets from the roll).  USPC got hardware that allowed them to speed up the process of making a deck, something that didn't require the sheet to be turned, but that created what we call a "Modern Cut", which is a face-up cut, with the cards being pressed into the die with the backs facing the blades.  They don't shuffle as well, and can't be faroed face down until they've had a good deal of breaking in.  Casinos, being the traditionalists that they are, generally insist on Traditionally-Cut decks.  A good example of a traditionally cut deck would be the Richard Turner Gold Seal Bicycle Rider Backs as well as the Professional Bicycle Rider Backs from CARC.

Almost any new, uncanceled deck from a casino will also be traditionally cut, but because paper decks are no longer used in poker, most of the decks you'll find will have "Tech-Art" faces - those are the ones with the four Ace indices, the ones on the left being short of the corner, as well as all the number cards up to 9 falling short.  These cards were designed so a blackjack dealer could know immediately if he was dealt a blackjack by the use of a mirror built into the table - cards worth ten had a high index in the left corner while Aces had a high index in the right corner.  They're also usually jumbo-index, as that's the preference these days for most blackjack tables.  Many people aren't fans of either Tech-Art or jumbo indices - T-A isn't good for standard card play and may look a little too alien for some spectators.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2013, 01:03:04 AM »
 

kdklown

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Don quick question for you...  You always refer to the United States Playing Card Company as USPC.  Most others myself included refer to them as USPCC, using all five initials.  However, I can't remember ever seeing you correct anyone on the forums.  Maybe you tried and have given up or maybe you just shorten it for ease of operation.  I would want to correct my usage if it wrong.  Just curious.  Thanks. 
 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2013, 01:10:38 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Don quick question for you...  You always refer to the United States Playing Card Company as USPC.  Most others myself included refer to them as USPCC, using all five initials.  However, I can't remember ever seeing you correct anyone on the forums.  Maybe you tried and have given up or maybe you just shorten it for ease of operation.  I would want to correct my usage if it wrong.  Just curious.  Thanks.

The company used to use all five initials.  They've shortened it to only the four in recent years.  On their own websites they refer to themselves as USPC.  It's pretty much like the difference between to-MAY-to and to-MAH-to...
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #122 on: October 06, 2013, 01:16:46 AM »
 

kdklown

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Roger that.  Thanks Don.   
 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #123 on: October 06, 2013, 10:55:39 AM »
 

Anthony

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Wow, that was quite the explanation Don....but greatly appreciated and most importantly answered a boat load of questions. So it seems at this point, for a beginner, there really isn't too much to really consider when picking up current/modern decks especially if our intention is based more on collecting than practical/professional use and even then it seems to be a personal preference. I would say when chasing more vintage decks more of the dated details would come into play.

So finishes for the most part are just identified by different names depending on the brand that they are attached to, but I have to admit that I know what you mean by the stronger smell and have noticed it on certain decks. And if I read correctly there are only 2 different card "Stocks", of course taking your thickness research into consideration when making that statement.

As I mentioned, this did clear up a lot of questions for me and I'm sure others as well and I appreciate the time you took to go into such great detail....I've also copied your response into a Word dock to review on occasion or when the need arises.


 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #124 on: October 06, 2013, 02:29:00 PM »
 

bhong

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A quick question for anyone that might know the answer. Technically there's only two real finishes by USPCC, air cushion and magic finish, but CARC developed the special finish on the Erdnase 216 playing cards. Is that finish exclusively CARC or will others be allowed to use that finish for their own decks in the future?
 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links
« Reply #125 on: October 06, 2013, 09:20:39 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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A quick question for anyone that might know the answer. Technically there's only two real finishes by USPCC, air cushion and magic finish, but CARC developed the special finish on the Erdnase 216 playing cards. Is that finish exclusively CARC or will others be allowed to use that finish for their own decks in the future?

It's a CARC exclusive.  It's as I mentioned about the USPC version of the Golden Rule - he who spends the gold, makes the rules.  CARC is a BIG customer at USPC.  So if Bill Kalush is willing to pay for it, they'll make this custom deck to his specifications.  I actually have a few test decks that led up to the creation of the Erdnase 216 - the man was paying for a number of complete deck runs JUST to test his ideas about a finish.  He's one serious card man.
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