Black Lions - David Blaine

[Card Player]

Black Lions, Silver Edition - David Blaine

[CBJ]

Black Lions - David Blaine

You beat me to it!

[Anthony]

Well that is a pretty slick tuck case, let's see what ends up inside 

[Nurul]

That tuck case does look rather cool. Isn't his Gatorbacks, something similar?

[Wilko]

Just wondering but where does the silver edition come from in the title of this thread.
I can see there black lions but just wondered where the silver edition came from.

[Wilko]

Ignore me. I just zoomed in on the tuck box to see it says it at the bottom!

[Don Boyer]

Ignore me. I just zoomed in on the tuck box to see it says it at the bottom!

No sweat - I was wondering that myself until you posted the answer!

I'm still curious about what the actual cards will look like.  If I had to guess, I'd say he's doing the White Lions over with inverted color - color where the white was, white where the color was.  He did the same with the Split Spades Lions.  Gotta admit, though, that's a pretty cool-looking box - that matte-black stuff is becoming all the rage with deck designers these days.

[Don Boyer]

Has anyone heard jack about this deck lately?

[PrincessTrouble]

Coming on Black Friday from David Blaine:

[Justin O.]

Oh man.. I am a sucker for anything gloss on matte...

[Mark]

But it's just a re-color and tuck-swap.

[Don Boyer]

But it's just a re-color and tuck-swap.

It's a little bit more than that - though admittedly not much more.

The White Lions were a very popular deck - I imagine these will be as well.

[Fess]

But it's just a re-color and tuck-swap.

It's a little bit more than that - though admittedly not much more.

The White Lions were a very popular deck - I imagine these will be as well.

I agree it is more than that. haha, we just visited this topic in the other thread. I also agree it will be very popular. I'll probably pick up a handful of these.

[Mark]

I was joking. I like the big lion face on the tuck. Hopefully they don't sell out immediately.

[Marcus]

Not counting the red Gatorbacks (which were teased as a very limited deck even before the release), Blaine's decks have been large print-runs so far. Shouldn't be a problem to get your hands on a few.

[Don Boyer]

Not counting the red Gatorbacks (which were teased as a very limited deck even before the release), Blaine's decks have been large print-runs so far. Shouldn't be a problem to get your hands on a few.

...and the White Lions Series A Red...
...and the White Lions "Rainbow Edition" purple...
...and the White Lions "Rainbow Edition" UV blue.

He's had a good number of limited print runs.  And this doesn't count the prototype Bicycle Split Spades magic decks, or the unreleased David Blaine "Microsoft" decks...

[Marcus]

Not counting the red Gatorbacks (which were teased as a very limited deck even before the release), Blaine's decks have been large print-runs so far. Shouldn't be a problem to get your hands on a few.

...and the White Lions Series A Red...
...and the White Lions "Rainbow Edition" purple...
...and the White Lions "Rainbow Edition" UV blue.

He's had a good number of limited print runs.  And this doesn't count the prototype Bicycle Split Spades magic decks, or the unreleased David Blaine "Microsoft" decks...

While I can't say you're wrong, I can't say I agree with all of that either. The Series A Red wasn't exactly hard to get, from what I remember it was easier than the green Gatorbacks even. I had a chance to get them and changed my mind quite a few times before deciding. The Rainbow editions were not a separate print-run, they were just the result of switching colors without cleaning the plates during the print so those aren't exactly comparable here. (Edit: A friend pointed out that the UV and the red Rainbow decks were indeed separate print-runs. Mea culpa.) The Microsoft deck has never even been released and was not meant to either, so that hardly works to compare with either.

Add to that, when Blaine teased the red gatorbacks he was very clear about how limited they were. Nothing like that has been said for these so far. These might sell out day one, but I doubt it'll be that hard to get some if you are around for the launch.

(However, I've grown to learn that you and I rarely see things from the same perspective, so I fully expect a response along those lines yet again.  )

[hecrob]

 

Im salivating over my phones screen right now...

This are the white lions all over again but with a better tuck case...

Im hoping this come marked too...

Now under heavy observation this look like they are marked... just check the upper left corner of the card in this image... notice anything?

[Don Boyer]

(However, I've grown to learn that you and I rarely see things from the same perspective, so I fully expect a response along those lines yet again.  )

"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking." — General George S. Patton

The Series A White Lions were unique in that they were one of only two such print runs to have a color change mid-run.  The purples came into being because during the print run on the blues, red ink was forced in behind the blue ink, resulting in the purple transition color and eventually in the remaining decks being red.  Or perhaps the red was first followed by blue, but either way, the purple came about because of the color transition you mentioned.

The other print run to have this unique color change mid-run was the Bicycle Professional Skull & Bones Back in Air-Cushion Finish by CARC.  They transitioned between red and black, resulting in a "blood red" transition color.  Unlike Blaine's White Lions Series A, however, the red and black decks exist in roughly equal amounts while the red Series A decks were made in a short run - I don't know the exact numbers, but I think it might have been as few as a thousand.

In both cases, the color of the transition decks is not consistent, sometimes even on the same deck sheet, resulting in the backs having slightly different colors from deck to deck and in some cases from card to card within a deck.  Additionally, the transition color was made in a series of only a handful of hundreds each, well under a thousand.  I never got a White Lions purple deck, but I did see an uncut sheet of one at Blaine's office downtown, and I do have the blood red Bicycle Pro S&B Back deck.

I'd be surprised as hell if USPC ever did another such print run - I can't imagine it was easy to pull off, and I'm thinking the only reason the both of them were done was because of the connection to Blaine (he's a member of the CARC Board of Directors).

[fenderdemon]

I wonder what hidden secrets David has in store for us this time? Obviously, new Jokers and AOS. Possibly slightly 'different' courts?? Numbers and signs???

[hecrob]

So, any guess on the deck if the is marked or not?

[CBJ]

Good news!  Gambler's Warehouse is taking over ALL shipping/fullfillment for the David Blaine website/store.


So your Black Friday orders will be packed safe and securely!







Jay

[fenderdemon]

Good news!  Gambler's Warehouse is taking over ALL shipping/fullfillment for the David Blaine website/store.


So your Black Friday orders will be packed safe and securely!





..

Jay

Cool. But does that mean reasonable international shipping costs? I live in the UK and have, unfortunately, spent a small fortune of inflated costs over the last few years.

[PrincessTrouble]

Silver Edition?

[Cardfool]

Silver Edition?

Apparently, the original tuck box had 'Silver Edition' at the bottom of the front, but the new version does not have it anymore, so I assume it should be just Black Lions

[HankMan]

Interesting, something obviously changed along the way 

[Don Boyer]

Cool. But does that mean reasonable international shipping costs? I live in the UK and have, unfortunately, spent a small fortune of inflated costs over the last few years.

Check into using a consolidation/forwarding service like Shipito.  You send them your packages to a US address, they consolidate them into a single package sent to you - only one international shipping charge instead of several.  Also look into partnering with fellow Brits from your area or this forum and creating a buyers' club for cost-per-item and cost-by-weight savings by buying in larger quantities.

[hecrob]

So this MIGHT mean that we have 2 editions coming?

That would be interesting...

Another thing that i would like to discuss is the price...

On recent years, every black friday we have seen cheap bricks... $60 each one...

Green Gatorbacks were $60 and Silver Splitspades were $60 too...

My bet is this deck is going to be $60 at launch...

[Don Boyer]

So this MIGHT mean that we have 2 editions coming?

That would be interesting...

Another thing that i would like to discuss is the price...

On recent years, every black friday we have seen cheap bricks... $60 each one...

Green Gatorbacks were $60 and Silver Splitspades were $60 too...

My bet is this deck is going to be $60 at launch...

I don't think we're going to see two editions, per se.  I think "Black Lions, Silver Edition" might have simply been the name before they just called it "Black Lions", or maybe the full name is "Black Lions, Silver Edition" but it's just shortened to "Black Lions" since no other editions are out yet.

Lately, Blaine's been releasing decks one color at a time - the last time he did otherwise was with the White Lions Series B, plus he closely timed the releases of Silver Split Spades and White Lions Black Label.  With the Gatorbacks, each color came out one color at a time, each in its own release.  I'm guessing that is what we're going to see here - a single color Friday, perhaps another color or two down the road.  At most, maybe two colors will come out Friday - but it's hard to picture what, since white's perhaps the only other thing that would look good with so much black, and compared to metallic silver, it won't look nearly as nice nor as different.  Now if he called them Black Lions but made the field of black in different colors than black, like a solid blue or a solid red, that's a different story... 

[ksi]

So, any guess on the deck if the is marked or not?

My guess is, this deck is likely to be a marked deck (following the White Lions Series B).  But this is just my wild guess.

However, I do hope it is not marked.  So that I can treat it as normal playing cards and can play card games with friends.

[fenderdemon]

Cool. But does that mean reasonable international shipping costs? I live in the UK and have, unfortunately, spent a small fortune of inflated costs over the last few years.

Check into using a consolidation/forwarding service like Shipito.  You send them your packages to a US address, they consolidate them into a single package sent to you - only one international shipping charge instead of several.  Also look into partnering with fellow Brits from your area or this forum and creating a buyers' club for cost-per-item and cost-by-weight savings by buying in larger quantities.

That's a good idea about Shipito.. I'll look into that. Thank you.

I'm actually a misanthrope and, as such, don't have very many friends at all, so that rules the second option out 😂😂😂 Thanks anyway. 😉

[PrincessTrouble]

Silver Edition?

Apparently, the original tuck box had 'Silver Edition' at the bottom of the front, but the new version does not have it anymore, so I assume it should be just Black Lions

Maybe we should change the title of the thread and eliminate Silver Edition...

[hecrob]

30% off all* the items in the store...

Still nothing about the Black Lions price...


The * stands for itesm that are not already on sale.

[fenderdemon]

30% off all* the items in the store...

Still nothing about the Black Lions price...


The * stands for itesm that are not already on sale.

IRO the 30% OFF ENTIRE STORE* DB 'probably' won't include the SS and WL autographed uncut sheets. He only put those on the site, when it was resurrected, so I can't really see him reducing those bad boys.

However, if has has, I'll be furious, as I've just taken delivery of all 3 SS uncut sheets    Then again, who knows what goes through/on in that mind of his 

I say, the BL's will be by the brick for a bare minimum of $60, as he's done before.

[Don Boyer]

30% off all* the items in the store...

Still nothing about the Black Lions price...


The * stands for itesm that are not already on sale.

IRO the 30% OFF ENTIRE STORE* DB 'probably' won't include the SS and WL autographed uncut sheets. He only put those on the site, when it was resurrected, so I can't really see him reducing those bad boys.

However, if has has, I'll be furious, as I've just taken delivery of all 3 SS uncut sheets    Then again, who knows what goes through/on in that mind of his 

I say, the BL's will be by the brick for a bare minimum of $60, as he's done before.

The SS uncuts are new - it's the first time he's offered them for sale.  They weren't available for purchase when he gave me one - only as a personal gift from him.

It's entirely possible they'll go on sale - but if you write to them, they might be kind enough to credit you with the difference.

[hecrob]

David sent an email stating that the discount doesn't apply to the new arrivals...

So it wont apply to the Black Lions :/

Also it wont probably apply to the uncut sheets.

 

[PrincessTrouble]

Black Lions available now for $7 a deck.

[BiggerDee]

I bought a quantity and completed checkout at 12:02. Went back to get a few more 2 minutes later, and they were showing as sold out.

[HolyJJ]

I bought a quantity and completed checkout at 12:02. Went back to get a few more 2 minutes later, and they were showing as sold out.

I've just checked the black lions page... still shows as available.

[hecrob]

Well once again David destroyed the competition...

He released several items including 2 collectors boxes that i wasnt ready for... 

[BiggerDee]

They show available there but when placed in your cart, it will refresh the cart and show sold out. That's what it did at around 12:05. It says that the cart quantity is adjusted to reflect current inventory, which is 0, thus the sold out cart message. I saw the same during the red Gatorbacks. I was excited that I had snagged some, until I tried to check out and saw the sold out message.The main page is updated much later with the sold out text.

Edit: Just tried again and saw the sold out message. Attempted a second time, and didn't get the sold out message. Maybe it's a fluke generated by the cart system due to heavy demand. Hope that everyone is able to snag them if they want!

[Card Player]

I passed on these.

I like the idea behind black lions. However, the white lions tuck design was more sophisticated. I just dont think its Stutzman's best work. I would rather buy more black white lions.

[Don Boyer]

I just ordered some Black Lions - they're still available, apparently not a highly limited edition.  Those Variety Boxes are another story.  The Signature box had only 16 available to begin with and contained the "Create Magic" Microsoft deck, so I'm not surprised at all that it's long gone, but the Premium box is still available at $300, and has red Gatorbacks.

Red Gatorbacks can be had just a little more cheaply with a lizard-skin deck clip in the Accessories section: $275.  Only one of the models available comes with anything - the rest are just clips themselves, many of which come in a variety of colors and/or patterns.

[fenderdemon]

Has anybody seen any of the BL playing cards, complete, with the exception of one Joker? Seems like standard faces. What do the AOS and courts look like?

[Don Boyer]

Has anybody seen any of the BL playing cards, complete, with the exception of one Joker? Seems like standard faces. What do the AOS and courts look like?

Most of Blaine's decks have the same courts - his faces are mostly standard, but he replaced the faces of the court cards with people he knows.  He's on the King of Spades, his girlfriend is on the Queen of Spades, Bill Kalush is on the King of Hearts, etc.  Most decks designed for magicians and used by magicians will have faces that are standard or close to it - it's the familiarity factor for their spectators.  Most T11 decks are standard faces, not counting the commissioned work that they do for other companies (NoMad, Rarebit, JAQK Wineries, etc.).

[Siegismyname]

They are apparently printing some metallic blue and red ones for the holidays https://www.instagram.com/p/-1V9uQjPU8

[hecrob]

 

YES!

This is definitely hitting my wallet, after investing heavily in cards this black friday.

Its funny but Black "Blue" / "Red" Lions are going to sound weird, I hope the Metallux "process" really delivers for this decks.

UPDATE

After carefully looking at the vid, I cant confirm this is going to be a metallux deck

[PrincessTrouble]

Here is a screen capture from the IG video.

[ksi]

If these Red/Blue are in Metal Luxe, I probably would be broke.

[HankMan]

after the release I am going to be officially broke.

This is where my wallet says "NO!!!" but my hand keeps clicking the buy button anyway.

[fenderdemon]

Has anybody seen any of the BL playing cards, complete, with the exception of one Joker? Seems like standard faces. What do the AOS and courts look like?

Most of Blaine's decks have the same courts - his faces are mostly standard, but he replaced the faces of the court cards with people he knows.  He's on the King of Spades, his girlfriend is on the Queen of Spades, Bill Kalush is on the King of Hearts, etc.  Most decks designed for magicians and used by magicians will have faces that are standard or close to it - it's the familiarity factor for their spectators.  Most T11 decks are standard faces, not counting the commissioned work that they do for other companies (NoMad, Rarebit, JAQK Wineries, etc.).

HI Don. I think you're used to my 'late' replies, by now! 😉

I knew that. Don't forget, I had a gross oF the MGGs. I posted a picture of them on another thread. Down to my last 10 bricks 😏 Tons of other DB decks, Variety Boxes, as well. I was one of the lucky 16. Can't wait to receive the Create Magic deck! Yeah, baby!

I was wondering whether he'd done anything different to the courts this time. Will they be 'normal' or metallic, as in the MGGs and the MRGs. The AOS will most probably be different, et cetera. Naturally, lots of new secrets were mentioned on his BL page.

Has anybody received theirs, yet? Any pictures??

[BiggerDee]

Mine were "picked up" 3 states over on 12/4 by USPS, but there hasn't been any tracking update beyond that. Tracking states Priority 2-day. It looks like Gambler's Warehouse is fulfilling them (I received shipment notifications from both Blaine's store and Gambler's on the same day, same tracking number).

[Don Boyer]

Mine were "picked up" 3 states over on 12/4 by USPS, but there hasn't been any tracking update beyond that. Tracking states Priority 2-day. It looks like Gambler's Warehouse is fulfilling them (I received shipment notifications from both Blaine's store and Gambler's on the same day, same tracking number).

Didn't someone announce a few days back that GW is doing Blaine's fulfillment?  I recall Blaine was having problems with his fulfillment at one point, so hopefully this will put that to rest.

[Cardfool]

Yes, GW is doing fulfilment, but apparently USPC only initially sent GW enough decks to fulfil half their orders and then messed up on the second shipment to GW (sent the decks to another customer) and had to express another pallet to GW...as per Eddie, once they receive the decks, GW will expedite the orders

[Don Boyer]

Yes, GW is doing fulfilment, but apparently USPC only initially sent GW enough decks to fulfil half their orders and then messed up on the second shipment to GW (sent the decks to another customer) and had to express another pallet to GW...as per Eddie, once they receive the decks, GW will expedite the orders

"Another customer?"  Imagine being the lucky guy who has half of all the Black Lions show up on his doorstep...

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

The "other customer"  was Focus Mailing - DB/GW has only physically "shipped" 8 cases - the rest of those tracking numbers were generated but no physical packages have been mailed

[Blockheads88]

Looks like they shipped out today!!!!!

Tracking number Updated and I should Have Tuesday.

FYI - I am in NY.

[BiggerDee]

No update on my tracking number...still the same "Picked up" that it's shown since the 4th. A "Hey we've had some issues, sorry for the delay" e-mail would have been nice. I'm anxious to get these and check them out.

[Don Boyer]

Received an email 12 days ago announcing they were "shipped."  Checked the link in the email a moment ago to see the status online - no, they HAVEN'T shipped, not yet...  Wrote to them asking for an update, included my "official signature" in hopes I might get a more prompt reply.

Official sig:


Don Boyer
Vice-President/Director of Digital Media
52 Plus Joker

Main Site: 52PlusJoker.com
Forum: PlayingCardForum.com

[ksi]

I am happy to share that my shipping status got some progress couple of hours ago.  (Before this, it was idle since 4Dec).

It is now "arrived at USPS facility".

Hope everyone should have progress as well soon.

[PrincessTrouble]

I ordered the day they were released and haven't even gotten a tracking number.  I guess I wasn't part of the 500 pre-printed shipping labels.  Hoping to get a shipping notice soon, though.

[GBrown]

Latest response from Gamblers to my queries:

'Not yet but hopefully this week'.  Quite literally as blunt as that (in response to my Q as to whether any decks had actually shipped yet.

When prompted as to why they haven't updated people out of courtesy, response as follows

'Its the duty of the seller. we are just the fulfillment company and still did post in forums'.

OK then...........

[BiggerDee]

Wow, that's an interesting response. I can see their point, but still...


On that note, I contacted the Blaine store and asked what was going on with my order. Should be interesting to see the response, if there is one.

[fenderdemon]

Received this earlier today: -

"...Hello Raymond,

Your order without Black Lions has been shipped. Sorry about the confusion regarding the Black Lions delay. Your tracking number for order #***** has already been shipped and should be there any day.
Your Black Lions order is shipping this week.

Sincerely,

Customer Service
dborders@davidblaine.com ..."

Tracking numbers ALL show as 'Not Found' on USPS's website, as of typing this post.

I also know Madison is the KOD, yet again along with a couple of other court changes.

[Don Boyer]

Here's a bit of irony for you...  I complain about the cards not being here, I check my mail after work before the PO opens (they have 24-hour lobby access for box holders and use of the automated kiosk), they're sitting in my PO Box...  They were there while I was typing my complaint!

Bizarre that the tracking numbers don't seem to be really tracking anything in a useful manner.

[fenderdemon]

Here's a bit of irony for you...  I complain about the cards not being here, I check my mail after work before the PO opens (they have 24-hour lobby access for box holders and use of the automated kiosk), they're sitting in my PO Box...  They were there while I was typing my complaint!

Bizarre that the tracking numbers don't seem to be really tracking anything in a useful manner.

Oh, that's priceless!!! Hahaha 😂 😂 😂

So, what do you think of them, Don? Some nice pictures, perchance??

[Don Boyer]

Here's a bit of irony for you...  I complain about the cards not being here, I check my mail after work before the PO opens (they have 24-hour lobby access for box holders and use of the automated kiosk), they're sitting in my PO Box...  They were there while I was typing my complaint!

Bizarre that the tracking numbers don't seem to be really tracking anything in a useful manner.

Oh, that's priceless!!! Hahaha   

So, what do you think of them, Don? Some nice pictures, perchance??

Gimme a chance to open them!  :-P

UPDATE: I cracked them open.  I've already started to decipher the markings on the back - it is indeed a marked deck!  I've found and interpreted the suit markings and will post some photos when I've made progress on the values.

[Don Boyer]

OK, I have fully cracked the marking system on the Black Lions.  It's very similar to that of the White Lions, but with a few noteworthy differences.

First, I'll upload some photos - note the labels I shall give them.

First, the four deuces.  Then look at the upper left corners of the back designs of each deuce.  I've isolated four of the split-spade designs in each, and you'll notice that along the center line, one of each of them is lighter than the other three.  That's the indicator for suit - the position of the lighter split-spade tells you if the card is a spade, heart, club or diamond.

Continued next post.

[Don Boyer]

Now, on to the values...

Before, you had to look for the linework in the center of each split spade in a diagonal line in order to determine value.  Now, you're looking instead at the GAP BETWEEN the diagonal lines of the split spades.  Two gaps (or in the case of the aces, one line) will be wider than the others.  It's hard to spot with the eye but you can train yourself to see it and it's especially obvious if you sort the cards by value, then perform a riffle test on the entire deck in that sorted state.  I've drawn a black line at the start of each wider gap and angled it in the direction of the gap that indicates the card's value.  This will take three posts in total to show you all the values - the examples given are all diamonds...

[Don Boyer]

Part two of three...

[Don Boyer]

Part three of three.  Forgive the crude drawing - I only have a simple drawing tool, Seashore.  I did notice something interesting about the pattern.  Looked at as vertical lines of split spades, there's a pattern which alternates as two columns pointing up, two columns pointing down, two up, two down, etc.  I think it was only one column each in the original White Lions, no?  I'm going just by memory, I don't have a pack in front of me.

[ksi]

This is amazing!
Great job, Don!!  Thank you very much!!

I personally not prefer marked deck.  Because I would like to play card games with friends.  But it seems not a big problem for me on this deck.  Coz I am not sensitive on the lighter/darker nor thinner/thicker and it is very difficult for me to recognise those marks.

[fenderdemon]

Good posts, Don! Thank you :-)

[BiggerDee]

Good work/posts, Don! Thank you!

I never received a response to my inquiry to the Blain store, but in the last hour, my tracking number has updated to a "Departed NTX" (USPS shipping center in TX) status with a delivery in 3 days.

[fenderdemon]

Now, on to the values...

Before, you had to look for the linework in the center of each split spade in a diagonal line in order to determine value.  Now, you're looking instead at the GAP BETWEEN the diagonal lines of the split spades.  Two gaps (or in the case of the aces, one line) will be wider than the others.  It's hard to spot with the eye but you can train yourself to see it and it's especially obvious if you sort the cards by value, then perform a riffle test on the entire deck in that sorted state.  I've drawn a black line at the start of each wider gap and angled it in the direction of the gap that indicates the card's value.  This will take three posts in total to show you all the values - the examples given are all diamonds...

Hey Don

I've attached a picture of the back of the 7♦️ (WL SB B). Would you mind using your marker (or MS Paint) to show where the value would be, please, because I can't see for looking 😉

Thank you :-)

[Don Boyer]

Hey Don

I've attached a picture of the back of the 7♦️ (WL SB B). Would you mind using your marker (or MS Paint) to show where the value would be, please, because I can't see for looking 😉

Thank you :-)

If you search for the old topic on the White Lions, I'm sure someone's detailed the entire marking system for that deck.  I'm going with the assumption that you've presented a Seven of Diamonds and what I remember of the marking system.

Notice I made two marks on your card image.  The top mark points to a full split spade - picture a diamond made of four split spades and that's the leftmost spade in the diamond.  Notice it's DARKER along the center line than the other three.  That's your suit indicator.

Now look at the second mark, pointing to a half split spade along the card's edge.  Notice how the long vertical line at the edge of that half-spade is THINNER than the same line on the spades above and below it.  Now notice the gap line that the half-spade is pointing to and follow it diagonally going up, seeing that it's WIDER than the gap of neighboring gap lines.

This is very similar to the Seven of Diamonds in the Black Lions, except that I can't tell any difference between the half-spades on the card edge for the Black Lions.  While its not immediately apparent, the gap positioning looks to be the same if you mirror the image of the Black Lion card, flipping it along the vertical axis - when you do that, the gaps in both decks are located in the same place.  The suit marker, however, is now using what appears to be different positioning, unless the White Lions Series B card presented isn't a diamond and is some other suit.

Need more info?  Go to the homepage and search "white lions marking system" and you'll find the older posts covering the marking systems used on the Series A and Series B decks.  I don't know if the markings were carried over into the Black Label - can't honestly say if I've looked or not - but I'd wager they're probably the same as Series B, considering the timing of the release.

[fenderdemon]

Hey Don

I've attached a picture of the back of the 7♦️ (WL SB B). Would you mind using your marker (or MS Paint) to show where the value would be, please, because I can't see for looking 😉

Thank you :-)

If you search for the old topic on the White Lions, I'm sure someone's detailed the entire marking system for that deck.  I'm going with the assumption that you've presented a Seven of Diamonds and what I remember of the marking system.

Notice I made two marks on your card image.  The top mark points to a full split spade - picture a diamond made of four split spades and that's the leftmost spade in the diamond.  Notice it's DARKER along the center line than the other three.  That's your suit indicator.

Now look at the second mark, pointing to a half split spade along the card's edge.  Notice how the long vertical line at the edge of that half-spade is THINNER than the same line on the spades above and below it.  Now notice the gap line that the half-spade is pointing to and follow it diagonally going up, seeing that it's WIDER than the gap of neighboring gap lines.

This is very similar to the Seven of Diamonds in the Black Lions, except that I can't tell any difference between the half-spades on the card edge for the Black Lions.  While its not immediately apparent, the gap positioning looks to be the same if you mirror the image of the Black Lion card, flipping it along the vertical axis - when you do that, the gaps in both decks are located in the same place.  The suit marker, however, is now using what appears to be different positioning, unless the White Lions Series B card presented isn't a diamond and is some other suit.

Need more info?  Go to the homepage and search "white lions marking system" and you'll find the older posts covering the marking systems used on the Series A and Series B decks.  I don't know if the markings were carried over into the Black Label - can't honestly say if I've looked or not - but I'd wager they're probably the same as Series B, considering the timing of the release.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Don! I understand completely, now.

I'll also do the search you recommend.

Cheers!

[HolyJJ]

I got a brick as part of a trade (got rid of some decks which I was not having any luck selling)... and now that I've opened a deck and checked them out, I seriously don't like them.

For starters, the deck I opened was not even traditionally cut. As for the back design... the marking system is exactly the same as the White Lions Series B. Yeah, it does have the advantage of allowing the magician (or cheater) to be able to read the card value from backs from across the table, but unless you have the eyesight of an eagle or binoculars strapped to your face, you won't be able to read the suit unless you're very close to the cards. Furthermore, the back design does fail the riffle test.

The Sharps by LPCC still retain their place as the best marked deck by far (can read the suits from across the table also, and the marking system passes the riffle test!), and the Lions (both white and black) by David Blaine are still the second best. Having that second place spot isn't terrible by any means... but I'm kind of disappointed seeing as it's a David Blaine deck, and nothing has been done to improve that marking system.

The edges on the Bicycle metal luxe deck that I got were pretty good (for USPCC standards), and so I thought maybe that improvement would be noticed on the Black Lions also... but sadly, the edges were as bad as they get.

On the plus side, the tuck on this deck is pretty awesome, as is the silver foil deck seal.

Overall I'm disappointed though. I'm going to have to try and sell off the remaining decks!

[Don Boyer]

I got a brick as part of a trade (got rid of some decks which I was not having any luck selling)... and now that I've opened a deck and checked them out, I seriously don't like them.

For starters, the deck I opened was not even traditionally cut. As for the back design... the marking system is exactly the same as the White Lions Series B. Yeah, it does have the advantage of allowing the magician (or cheater) to be able to read the card value from backs from across the table, but unless you have the eyesight of an eagle or binoculars strapped to your face, you won't be able to read the suit unless you're very close to the cards. Furthermore, the back design does fail the riffle test.

The Sharps by LPCC still retain their place as the best marked deck by far (can read the suits from across the table also, and the marking system passes the riffle test!), and the Lions (both white and black) by David Blaine are still the second best. Having that second place spot isn't terrible by any means... but I'm kind of disappointed seeing as it's a David Blaine deck, and nothing has been done to improve that marking system.

The edges on the Bicycle metal luxe deck that I got were pretty good (for USPCC standards), and so I thought maybe that improvement would be noticed on the Black Lions also... but sadly, the edges were as bad as they get.

On the plus side, the tuck on this deck is pretty awesome, as is the silver foil deck seal.

Overall I'm disappointed though. I'm going to have to try and sell off the remaining decks!

Traditionally cut?  When have any of Blaine's decks been traditionally cut?

I spoke with the USPC reps at the convention.  Once in a while, they have trouble feeding print sheets through the cutter, where it gets cut into strips and the cards are punched from the strips with a die cutter in the shape of a card.  They try feeding the sheet flipped over when this happens - it's why once in a while, a deck not traditionally cut becomes so for a least a portion of the print run.  But as a general rule, casino decks are usually requested as traditionally cut and non-casino decks are not, and USPC has been known in the past to discourage custom deck makers from requesting traditionally-cut cards because the cuts supposedly aren't as clean.

Most marked decks don't pass the riffle test.  Even the Ultimate Marked Deck doesn't.  Speaking of which, a batch was recently "accidentally" printed by USPC - the creators ordered it, no one spotted it until AFTER it was printed and by then it was too late.  This means you can find them on the market again, but they aren't cheap.  Well-hidden markings, not as bad a failure at the riffle test as either of the Lions and readable from across the table - in the traditional Rider Back design.  I can't speak for Sharps as I haven't seen them, but if the marks can be read with the naked eye, there's a chance that it can be detected in a riffle test with the naked eye - the more subtle and smaller the markings, the more difficult they are to spot, but no naked-eye visible marks are unspottable.  If they weren't, they wouldn't be marks, would they?

Best deck I've seen for defeating a riffle test: marked Bicycle Series 1800.  The weathered look on the backs have dozens and dozens of visible marks from back to back, making the suit/value markings as easy to spot as a single drop of water in a tsunami.  But the markings are VERY subtle - I can see them with my glasses on, but that's also because with glasses on my "arm's-length range" vision is 20/15, on par with a fighter pilot.  They require practicing to read them accurately, but they are readable at at least arm's length if not across the table.

Second best is that Madison deck that looks a lot like a Bee Diamond Back - there's so many Madison decks I stopped keeping track of the names long ago.  It came in a borderless and white-bordered version, and the marks are small enough to be very hard to spot, but unlike the UMD and the 1800s, you have to memorize a marking system, while those other two decks are plainly readable and unencoded.  You just have to know where to look!

[HolyJJ]

Don, to answer the question, the White Lions series B decks (at least the ones I used) were traditionally cut, as were the Silver Split spades. That's one of the reasons why Blaine decks were one of my go-to decks for practising with, before EPCC and LPCC started business.

In response to a question I posted in one of his KickStarter campaigns, Erik Mana also confirmed that even if you ask USPCC for your deck to be traditionally cut, every single deck won't be guaranteed to have the requested/demanded cut.

I think I've tested pretty much every single marked deck that's released in the past 4 years -- because card cheating/crooked gambling is what got me into cards in the first place, and so I marked decks do intruigue me.

The UMD deck is terrible. I was going to start putting it through the riffle test, but before I even started, I saw the blatant marking in the top corner. Wasn't impressed at all.

The Bicycle 1800 marked deck isn't bad, but it doesn't pass the riffle test -- that's how I found the markings, because I couldn't find the instructions video anywhere. As the 1800 design deliberately has different wears and tear patterns across different card backs, the markings are definitely better hidden than 90% of other marked decks... but as the markings are in "the usual place", after a few riffle tests, you can see them. It took me four riffles. Not bad.

The Madison Dealers fail the riffle test quite blatantly. Yeah, it does require one to figure out the dot code, but it's not difficult.

The Black and White Lions marking system is much better than the Madison Dealers, because although the Lions do also have a pattern type of code, even though they fail the riffle test, like the Bicycle 1800, the riffle test failure is difficult to detect, because the offsetting of the pattern is probably by only a couple of pixels.

The Sharps are the only marked (or rather, readable-via-back-design) deck that I know of. I trust that you know about "juiced" decks that cheaters use... that's what the Sharps use.

As per LPCC's Instagram account, they're producing a second edition of the Sharps. For me, that's probably the best news I've heard in months. I'm curious to see whether they really can top the first edition!

In the interim, for those who don't have the Sharps, the DB Lions decks are a decent alternative... if you don't mind the furry edges!

[Don Boyer]

Don, to answer the question, the White Lions series B decks (at least the ones I used) were traditionally cut, as were the Silver Split spades. That's one of the reasons why Blaine decks were one of my go-to decks for practising with, before EPCC and LPCC started business.

In response to a question I posted in one of his KickStarter campaigns, Erik Mana also confirmed that even if you ask USPCC for your deck to be traditionally cut, every single deck won't be guaranteed to have the requested/demanded cut.

I think I've tested pretty much every single marked deck that's released in the past 4 years -- because card cheating/crooked gambling is what got me into cards in the first place, and so I marked decks do intruigue me.

The UMD deck is terrible. I was going to start putting it through the riffle test, but before I even started, I saw the blatant marking in the top corner. Wasn't impressed at all.

The Bicycle 1800 marked deck isn't bad, but it doesn't pass the riffle test -- that's how I found the markings, because I couldn't find the instructions video anywhere. As the 1800 design deliberately has different wears and tear patterns across different card backs, the markings are definitely better hidden than 90% of other marked decks... but as the markings are in "the usual place", after a few riffle tests, you can see them. It took me four riffles. Not bad.

The Madison Dealers fail the riffle test quite blatantly. Yeah, it does require one to figure out the dot code, but it's not difficult.

The Black and White Lions marking system is much better than the Madison Dealers, because although the Lions do also have a pattern type of code, even though they fail the riffle test, like the Bicycle 1800, the riffle test failure is difficult to detect, because the offsetting of the pattern is probably by only a couple of pixels.

The Sharps are the only marked (or rather, readable-via-back-design) deck that I know of. I trust that you know about "juiced" decks that cheaters use... that's what the Sharps use.

As per LPCC's Instagram account, they're producing a second edition of the Sharps. For me, that's probably the best news I've heard in months. I'm curious to see whether they really can top the first edition!

In the interim, for those who don't have the Sharps, the DB Lions decks are a decent alternative... if you don't mind the furry edges!

There's a little secret I discovered to make it easier for a deck fail the riffle test if it's marked.  For the Black Lions, I first sorted the deck by suit only to find the suit markings, then I sorted them by value to find the value markings.  It makes it easier to spot the transitions because for suit, the back change you're looking for happens every thirteen cards and for value, every four cards.  I couldn't spot the value changes off the bat at first, but after sorting for value, they stood out like sore thumbs.  It's like watching a flipbook-type movie but it takes place in slow-motion, making the changes easier to detect than the rapid flicker you might get in a randomized deck.

Most people I show the UMD to never spot the markings unless I point them out.  Magicians might not be fooled as easily, but how often do you perform for magicians?  My local magic shop used to sell them regularly to a poker cheat who came in for them.  I know of juiced decks but haven't yet experienced one first-hand, so I can't comment on them authoritatively.

[ksi]

I got a brick as part of a trade (got rid of some decks which I was not having any luck selling)... and now that I've opened a deck and checked them out, I seriously don't like them.

For starters, the deck I opened was not even traditionally cut. As for the back design... the marking system is exactly the same as the White Lions Series B. Yeah, it does have the advantage of allowing the magician (or cheater) to be able to read the card value from backs from across the table, but unless you have the eyesight of an eagle or binoculars strapped to your face, you won't be able to read the suit unless you're very close to the cards. Furthermore, the back design does fail the riffle test.

The Sharps by LPCC still retain their place as the best marked deck by far (can read the suits from across the table also, and the marking system passes the riffle test!), and the Lions (both white and black) by David Blaine are still the second best. Having that second place spot isn't terrible by any means... but I'm kind of disappointed seeing as it's a David Blaine deck, and nothing has been done to improve that marking system.

The edges on the Bicycle metal luxe deck that I got were pretty good (for USPCC standards), and so I thought maybe that improvement would be noticed on the Black Lions also... but sadly, the edges were as bad as they get.

On the plus side, the tuck on this deck is pretty awesome, as is the silver foil deck seal.

Overall I'm disappointed though. I'm going to have to try and sell off the remaining decks!

Oh... so sad to hear that the deck seems disappointed.

How about the paper?  Feel like casino grade?  Or just close to normal bikes?

I personally more concern on the paper quality, handling and finish.  My recent experience on USPCC decks are not good.  All feel soft and relatively thin.  My hope is DB would be one of fews who are still able to push USPCC using more high quality paper.

And I am worrying about the delay issue.  If a majority portion of stock did lost by USPS, then DB would have to ask USPCC to print again immediately.  That might cause the decrease in quality control.  I hope this is not the reason that some of the decks are not traditionally cut.

[Don Boyer]

\Oh... so sad to hear that the deck seems disappointed.

How about the paper?  Feel like casino grade?  Or just close to normal bikes?

I personally more concern on the paper quality, handling and finish.  My recent experience on USPCC decks are not good.  All feel soft and relatively thin.  My hope is DB would be one of fews who are still able to push USPCC using more high quality paper.

I think it's more that the BUYER was disappointed.  The deck I'm sure is perfectly happy! 

The paper isn't as bad as cheap mass-produced Bikes, but it's not Bee Casino grade.  I'd say it's on the heavy end of Bike stock.  And yes, they are definitely not traditionally cut.  The quality is on par with the previous recent Blaine decks.

[HolyJJ]

Don, from my experience, juiced decks are the ultimate when it comes to marking systems -- my 8 year old cousin (who is obviously not a magician) found the marks on the Madison dealers, and so I'm never comfortable handing out decks like that for inspection. Sharps on the other hand, I don't mind if a person inspects them for hours!

The marking pattern on the Sharps is very similar to that on the black lions (at least for card value/number).

KSI, Don's assessment of the Black Lions is correct -- the card stock doesn't feel anywhere near as thick or study as the Bee Casino decks from around 8 years ago.

I personally preferred the card thickness and feel of the White Lions more.

Expert Playing Card Company's classic twins feature a stock which has much more of a Casino quality paper feel than anything that USPCC is putting out these days.

[ksi]

\Oh... so sad to hear that the deck seems disappointed.

How about the paper?  Feel like casino grade?  Or just close to normal bikes?

I personally more concern on the paper quality, handling and finish.  My recent experience on USPCC decks are not good.  All feel soft and relatively thin.  My hope is DB would be one of fews who are still able to push USPCC using more high quality paper.

I think it's more that the BUYER was disappointed.  The deck I'm sure is perfectly happy! 

The paper isn't as bad as cheap mass-produced Bikes, but it's not Bee Casino grade.  I'd say it's on the heavy end of Bike stock.  And yes, they are definitely not traditionally cut.  The quality is on par with the previous recent Blaine decks.

Don, from my experience, juiced decks are the ultimate when it comes to marking systems -- my 8 year old cousin (who is obviously not a magician) found the marks on the Madison dealers, and so I'm never comfortable handing out decks like that for inspection. Sharps on the other hand, I don't mind if a person inspects them for hours!

The marking pattern on the Sharps is very similar to that on the black lions (at least for card value/number).

KSI, Don's assessment of the Black Lions is correct -- the card stock doesn't feel anywhere near as thick or study as the Bee Casino decks from around 8 years ago.

I personally preferred the card thickness and feel of the White Lions more.

Expert Playing Card Company's classic twins feature a stock which has much more of a Casino quality paper feel than anything that USPCC is putting out these days.

Thanks a lot for the info.

My Black Lions is still not yet arrived.  I am dreaming if these Black Lions could be comparing with the Split Spades Lions in terms of the paper.  But likely I would be wake up soon...

Are the Classic Twins in "Classic Finish"?  Recently I got both Draconian (Classic Finish) and LUXX Palme (Elite Finish).  I don't know which one (or both?) are casino grade.  For me, both of the stocks are really impressive.  And by measurement they seems to be the same thickness.  Personally I prefer the Elite Finish a bit more.  The texture of the coating seems more subtle.

[HolyJJ]

KSI, I don't have any Silver Split Spades decks left... but from what I recall, the Silver Split Spades paper did feel very slightly sturdier than the Black Lions.

I wouldn't say it's David Blaine's fault... it's more USPCC's fault for not even attempting to improve their poor quality paper at a time where EPCC and LPCC paper stocks are tons better.

You're right about the Classic Twins (and also the Classic black and Classic gold) featuring the Classic Finish, as does the Draconian deck. The Elite Finish that the LUXX Palme uses I very good also. Whilst I'm not 100% sure about this, to me they feel like the same paper stock, but with a different embossing pattern (and possibly a slight variation in coating).

The Elite Finish pattern does appear to give the cards more durability than the Classic Finish. For what it's worth, I like the Elite Finish very much.

If only Blaine printed his cards with EPCC of LPCC... they'd be so much better than the badly cut, and cheap feeling, non-traditionally cut cards that they presently are.

[fenderdemon]

I don't under why people think the BL's are not traditionally cut. DB'S BL's are traditionally cut. It states so in the snippet in the first paragraph of the description, verbatim...

"... After a year of detailed development with the United States Playing Card Company, we are proud to introduce The Black Lions, printed on custom casino-quality card stock and traditionally cut with new blades to create our best feeling deck yet... "

Surely, making traditionally cut cards isn't a difficult process. After all, they managed to do so all those years ago, the majority of casino decks are, and Turner's Gold Seal decks are traditionally cut. I honestly can't see USPC 's problem with it, unless they like to play the 'superior' card, pardon the pun, and 'we want you you have non-traditionally cut cards', so there.

Then again, I've only just woken up and am drinking my first cup of delicious, fresh coffee 😜

[HolyJJ]

I don't know about "people", but as I said, the deck I opened was not traditionally cut.

Blaine may well have asked for the decks to be traditionally cut, but as has been established during some of the replies, USPCC are unable to guarantee that every single deck will receive the direction of cut that was requested.

I probably just ended up being one that was unlucky. I had a similar problem with the Madison Private Reserve Rounders deck that I opened -- despite that deck being touted as being traditionally cut, I got one that wasn't. I guess USPCC's quality control really is as bad as it's reputed to be.

Therefore, there really isn't any reason to think/not think about whether or not BL's are traditionally cut -- especially when people are able to test it themselves.

[fenderdemon]

My perspective of people, is, but not limited to, people; posters; narrators, commentators, et, cetera. The list is endless, but you get the general meaning. I wasn't being rude. Just damn tired, all the damn time, with all my damn prescription medications.

USPC can't guarantee anything, nowadays. +/- 10% of 'delivered decks', What the hell does that even mean? I order 1000, I want 1000. If you order, say, 1000 company cars, I'm sure as hell not going to accept +/-10%. That's a huge ratio and just plain ridiculous.

If traditionally cut can't be guaranteed, then it should state, +/-10%, or thereabouts 😜

(USPC speaking here) Were not too sure on the exact amount, here, chaps, however, if you don't get a traditionally cut deck, tough shit!!! Sorry and all that! Arf, Arf...

All hail our new Masters: EPCC and LPCC!

Oh, man...

I'm going back to bed 😉

[ksi]

KSI, I don't have any Silver Split Spades decks left... but from what I recall, the Silver Split Spades paper did feel very slightly sturdier than the Black Lions.

I wouldn't say it's David Blaine's fault... it's more USPCC's fault for not even attempting to improve their poor quality paper at a time where EPCC and LPCC paper stocks are tons better.

You're right about the Classic Twins (and also the Classic black and Classic gold) featuring the Classic Finish, as does the Draconian deck. The Elite Finish that the LUXX Palme uses I very good also. Whilst I'm not 100% sure about this, to me they feel like the same paper stock, but with a different embossing pattern (and possibly a slight variation in coating).

The Elite Finish pattern does appear to give the cards more durability than the Classic Finish. For what it's worth, I like the Elite Finish very much.

If only Blaine printed his cards with EPCC of LPCC... they'd be so much better than the badly cut, and cheap feeling, non-traditionally cut cards that they presently are.

HolyJJ, I actually mean the 1st Edition Split Spades Lions which was printed in OHIO.  I love this deck very much.  The thickness and handling is just like an UV500 or OHIO Casino Bee.

For the stock using by USPCC, I think I have similar view with you.  Since 2014 there seems very few Bee Casino stock being used.  I got some 1902 Erdnase Smith back (red and black), which said to be using the Bee 825 casino grade paper.  These decks are quite close to those OHIO Bee Casino stock in terms of thickness and stiffness.  But since then, I never have chance to get a deck with such thickness and stiffness.

And for the traditional cut.  I got a brick of HoneyBee, which said to be under traditional cut.  But the deck I opened, was not.  Yes I think this is an accident, an accident caused by USPCC.  And this accident appeared on your Black Lions again.

Recently I opened 2 decks of normal Tally-Ho, and a Bicycle Cupid back, and a Bicycle Speakeasy Deck, and a Bicycle Skull Deck, and a Bicycle Guardians v1 --  they are all traditionally cut.  My feeling is, it seems that for their in-house decks, there are a significant portion being cut traditionally.  But for those custom prints, the percentage is relatively small.  And even you requested to do so, sometimes accident appeared.

[Don Boyer]

I don't under why people think the BL's are not traditionally cut. DB'S BL's are traditionally cut. It states so in the snippet in the first paragraph of the description, verbatim...

"... After a year of detailed development with the United States Playing Card Company, we are proud to introduce The Black Lions, printed on custom casino-quality card stock and traditionally cut with new blades to create our best feeling deck yet... "

Surely, making traditionally cut cards isn't a difficult process. After all, they managed to do so all those years ago, the majority of casino decks are, and Turner's Gold Seal decks are traditionally cut. I honestly can't see USPC 's problem with it, unless they like to play the 'superior' card, pardon the pun, and 'we want you you have non-traditionally cut cards', so there.

Then again, I've only just woken up and am drinking my first cup of delicious, fresh coffee 😜

David Blaine can advertise them as whatever cut he wants.  A traditional cut, known in the trade as a face-down cut because of the orientation of the paper relative to the die when it's being punched, will faro and weave shuffle easily while face down from bottom to top straight out of the box.  The modern cut, known in the trade as a face-up cut, has to be face up in order to weave and faro shuffle straight out of the box.  Given a little breaking in, any deck will weave or faro either direction, unless they're really poorly cut and made of poor-grade paper like most dollar-store specials.

The Black Lions are NOT traditionally cut.  At least not the pack I opened.  Of the untold thousands of decks that were made (no one but David and USPC knows the size of the print run), it's indeed possible that some were traditionally cut - but clearly at least some if not most were not.

The problem with making a traditionally-cut deck is that it adds an extra step (flipping the sheet) to the process of feeding the paper through the cutting machine.  It's more efficient to make decks in the modern cut.  The Turner Gold Seal decks were made at the Cincinnati plant, no longer in operation.  I've spoken with USPC reps about the Erlanger plant - they do occasionally have trouble feeding paper into the new cutter, in which case they'll flip the paper over before feeding it.  It's why there's such confusion about traditional and modern deck cutting.  Anyone specifying that they want traditionally-cut decks has to pay extra for it and will be discouraged from their request, apparently not only because of the added step but because of the inconsistency of their own cutting equipment.

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

the black lions add copy "says" they are traditionally cut and my first deck out of the box was cut that way - I was actually surprised because I wasn't expecting it - so wasn't looking for it - went back and checked the add copy and bam - there it was. Am I going to open all the decks in my brick to verify? Nope. But the 1st one I pulled was.

[Blockheads88]

So there was a Post From David Blaine about the Red / Blue coming out Xmas?
Anyone have any update when they will be released?

Haven't heard anything since and nothing released yet.

[crazyfandecks]

thank you very much Don  i was dizzy while keep staring at the long side spades line just to see if  it have same marked of Series B. but the only i recognized is 7 - it still have the "marked to separate 7 & Queen" of series B. thank to you, now i know how to read all of them.
also anyone notice DB change the 4 of Hearts in Queen of Spades hands is now 4 of Clubs 
oh and is there anyone know why Labyrinth Hsieh closed his blog of Hidden Secret of White Lions  i really missed that site

[hecrob]

So in classic Blaine fashion, he said something and then later didnt deliver :/

[Don Boyer]

oh and is there anyone know why Labyrinth Hsieh closed his blog of Hidden Secret of White Lions  i really missed that site

It's still there.  I found it while I was looking for the old White Lions marking system.  We have links to it - go to the forum home page and search "white lions marking system" and one of the topics you hit will have the link you're looking for.

[crazyfandecks]

hmm, maybe because of my ISP blocked all blogspot, i forgot that, now i can only access his site by webcache.

anyway, after reading the "reversed court cards" trick of Jordan in Encyclopedia of Card Trick, i think i found out DB's have re-design the court cards with more than 3 have 1way face  if anyone can showed them first in here will be great because i won't touch the black lions again until next weekend due to my exam 

[fenderdemon]

Just received my bricks, along with lots of other goodies, in the post, today, and the first deck I opened, was.................. traditionally cut! 😏

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

 bing bing bing! Yea, I asked my friend to open his and he confirmed as well

Anyone else found the 5H reveal on the tuck back?

[fenderdemon]

Anyone else found the 5H reveal on the tuck back?

Under the lion's whiskers... 😉

[fenderdemon]

Would some kind soul tell me who the J♦️, Q♣️ and the K♣️ are based on, please.

On a side note, I love the deeper red hue on the pips and court cards. Possibly Madison's input, there.

Also, has anyone noticed what appears to be a very feint 1 2 3 on the Lion's overcoat, as well as a 4♦️ (I can't confirm the suit, as my magnifying glass isn't strong enough and I've misplaced my loupe) and a bordered back design on the two Jokers, respectively.

Overall, I really like these cards. I think they handle extremely well.

The one gripe I have, is that I wish they were of the same stock as the WL'S, although they are still of a very high quality stock. David's cards are always special when it comes to stock, finish, et cetera, IMHO.

[hawk199]

Friend got this in mail


Edit: This is fake

Looks fake to me.
Try using better lighting.

[Card Player]

Got this in mail

Looks fake to me.

Try using better lighting.

[Cardfool]

Got this in mail

Sweet!  Looks like the Red Black Lions that he showed on his IG account...how did you get them, with your order of regular Black Lions?

[hawk199]

was half-asleep when i posted this.

This deck belong to my friend he said he ordered half brick, regular Black Lions. But must been a shipping mistake

[Don Boyer]

Would some kind soul tell me who the J♦️, Q♣️ and the K♣️ are based on, please.

On a side note, I love the deeper red hue on the pips and court cards. Possibly Madison's input, there.

Also, has anyone noticed what appears to be a very feint 1 2 3 on the Lion's overcoat, as well as a 4♦️ (I can't confirm the suit, as my magnifying glass isn't strong enough and I've misplaced my loupe) and a bordered back design on the two Jokers, respectively.

Overall, I really like these cards. I think they handle extremely well.

The one gripe I have, is that I wish they were of the same stock as the WL'S, although they are still of a very high quality stock. David's cards are always special when it comes to stock, finish, et cetera, IMHO.

I don't know what changes if any he's made for this series, but you can compare it to decks from earlier series at the Playing Card Wiki (Google for it, you'll find it, no problem).  The info there is dated, but of excellent quality, including a breakdown of who appears on what cards in many of Blaine's earlier decks.

Stock quality is always an issue with USPC - it has a lot to do with recycling regulations requiring a certain amount of the paper be made of post-consumer recycled content.  Recycled paper has shorter fibers and is of a lower quality.  Ellusionist was lamenting about this in their blog a few years ago.  Factor in that they don't make the paper, they buy it on the open market, and there's less ability to insure a consistent high grade of paper print run after print run.  (They do their own gluing, laminating and embossing to make paperboard stock, but the paper they use comes from someone else.)

[GamblersWarehouse]

Looks fake...

[hawk199]

Just sharing, if you think it is fake then it is fake

[HolyJJ]

I genuinely don't like these cards (in comparison to the White Lions)... and I'm having a tough time selling them off on eBay also.

I picked up the deck I'd initially opened, and gave them around half an hour worth of shuffles... and they're already starting to feel like newspaper that's been trodden on by wet boots. The cards feel really cheap in comparison to the White Lions and Bee decks of times gone by. USPCC card stock really has gone down the toilet.

I guess they feel even more cheap now, because I've spent the past few days using only the Superior Brand Robusto Classic by EPCC... and so maybe that's changed my view of Black Lions being mediocre, to Black Lions being cheap, flimsy, and handling like newspaper.

If Blaine releases any more colour variations, then I'll be passing on them as my assumption is that they'll handle just like the these Black Lions.

[crazyfandecks]

guys? fake or not 


source from my facebook friends 

[Don Boyer]

OK, first photo:

The colors look WAY OFF, and why name the deck Black Lions and not use the previously-established black box design?  The autograph looks right, but it's not impossible to forge it - tons of examples exist, even online.  Hell, I posted photos of mine when David signed stuff for me.

Second photo:
That's the Gatorbacks back design!  Why make Gatorbacks, then release the same design under a different name?  Makes no sense.

Is it possible the photos are legit?  Sure, and it's possible I can win the lottery on the same day I survive a lightning strike, or I can randomly shuffle two previously-randomized decks back into new deck order, or I can stand on my head and spit out wooden nickels.  It's not terribly likely, though...

[hecrob]

I think the box is legit.

The ones we saw in the instagram vid say Black Lions

Also i don't think the blue version of the gatorbacks is meant to be the cards of that box in particular, we are watching 2 different decks here.

[fenderdemon]

Would some kind soul tell me who the J♦️, Q♣️ and the K♣️ are based on, please.

On a side note, I love the deeper red hue on the pips and court cards. Possibly Madison's input, there.

Also, has anyone noticed what appears to be a very feint 1 2 3 on the Lion's overcoat, as well as a 4♦️ (I can't confirm the suit, as my magnifying glass isn't strong enough and I've misplaced my loupe) and a bordered back design on the two Jokers, respectively.

Overall, I really like these cards. I think they handle extremely well.

The one gripe I have, is that I wish they were of the same stock as the WL'S, although they are still of a very high quality stock. David's cards are always special when it comes to stock, finish, et cetera, IMHO.

I don't know what changes if any he's made for this series, but you can compare it to decks from earlier series at the Playing Card Wiki (Google for it, you'll find it, no problem).  The info there is dated, but of excellent quality, including a breakdown of who appears on what cards in many of Blaine's earlier decks.

Stock quality is always an issue with USPC - it has a lot to do with recycling regulations requiring a certain amount of the paper be made of post-consumer recycled content.  Recycled paper has shorter fibers and is of a lower quality.  Ellusionist was lamenting about this in their blog a few years ago.  Factor in that they don't make the paper, they buy it on the open market, and there's less ability to insure a consistent high grade of paper print run after print run.  (They do their own gluing, laminating and embossing to make paperboard stock, but the paper they use comes from someone else.)

.

That site was the first thing I checked, Don. The cards I mentioned, are indeed, new people, or should I say, based on new people, therfore, it still remains a mystery.

I'm familiar with the stock issues at USPC. One run can be very good, the next, atrocious. Shame there is no consistency.

[fenderdemon]

The Red Black Lions deck in the carat case, looks genuine to me. I have the same deck, in the same case, with the exact same wording.

[crazyfandecks]

OK, first photo:

The colors look WAY OFF, and why name the deck Black Lions and not use the previously-established black box design?  The autograph looks right, but it's not impossible to forge it - tons of examples exist, even online.  Hell, I posted photos of mine when David signed stuff for me.

Second photo:
That's the Gatorbacks back design!  Why make Gatorbacks, then release the same design under a different name?  Makes no sense.

Is it possible the photos are legit?  Sure, and it's possible I can win the lottery on the same day I survive a lightning strike, or I can randomly shuffle two previously-randomized decks back into new deck order, or I can stand on my head and spit out wooden nickels.  It's not terribly likely, though...

The Red Black Lions i still not find the source, but the Blue Gatorbacks photo i found it from a UK card collector 

[PrincessTrouble]

The Red Black Lions i still not find the source

Here is a screen capture from the IG video.

[crazyfandecks]

The Red Black Lions i still not find the source

Here is a screen capture from the IG video.

i mean the source of my photo  my friend just spammed me that photo without any description or source. i think everyone in this thread knew about this IG video already

[hawk199]

It's real...my friend got that too and in taht same casing. (seen in my previous pic post but w/o the case)

So there is blue one too..interesting

[hecrob]

And how did they get those? 

[fenderdemon]

And how did they get those? 

Mine was part of a care package from David, personally. I had to promise not to post it until they are released, so the day they are released, I'll post mine.

[Magic_Orthodoxy]

"Would some kind soul tell me who the J♦️, Q♣️ and the K♣️ are based on, please."

Looks like

JD is Doug McKenzie
KC is Dan White
QC is Alizee Guinochet

those are my guesses......

[Wilko]

@fenderdemon, just out of interest, what qualifies you to receive a care package from David Blaine? I'm just curious as there seems to be a lot of people receive these from lots of different playing card people. To an extent I can understand David Blaine sending say Daniel Madison a few decks but these seem to be getting sent out to whoever. Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking it. I think it's great for these people but just wonders what qualifies someone for it. For all I know fenderdemon may be personal friends of David Blaine, in which case i'd totally understand. Or is it something more trivial like they get sent out to people who happen to spend a lot of money in the store.

[Don Boyer]

@fenderdemon, just out of interest, what qualifies you to receive a care package from David Blaine? I'm just curious as there seems to be a lot of people receive these from lots of different playing card people. To an extent I can understand David Blaine sending say Daniel Madison a few decks but these seem to be getting sent out to whoever. Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking it. I think it's great for these people but just wonders what qualifies someone for it. For all I know fenderdemon may be personal friends of David Blaine, in which case i'd totally understand. Or is it something more trivial like they get sent out to people who happen to spend a lot of money in the store.

I've met David Blaine.  He's an exceptionally nice guy and known for giving good customer service, which at times includes sending little surprises to a select few people, chosen sometimes at random or on a whim.  I met him because I had a customer service issue, lived in the city where he had his office and (here's the whim part) have the same initials he does.  When I suggested swapping the wrong product for the right one in person, he agreed and that's how I met him and was even invited to join him for dinner with his staff and guests.  I know someone else who had an issue with a damaged product that he paid a fair amount of money for - David sent him some gaff cards including several that are not included in any of the sets he's made available at retail; basically they were cards from his own personal stash that he uses when performing.

[cardician]

Nice,

[PrincessTrouble]

Just posted on IG.

"Blue Edition. Available January 15 at shop.davidblaine.com. First 24 hours only $6 per deck."

[Card Player]

Earth/Faith, tattoo or marker?

[Don Boyer]

Earth/Faith, tattoo or marker?

Elephants in Denmark.  No soap, radio!

[BiggerDee]

In case you haven't seen, Black Lions, Blue Edition, $6 each, today (1/15) only.

[ksi]

I received my Black Lions yesterday.

I opened one deck and took some measurements immediately.
The deck I opened is in modern cut. 
52 cards thickness is 14.8mm and weight is 86.5g.

The pictures were taken upon right out of the box, before any cutting and shuffling.

The deck seems thin, soft, and a bit naturally bended.  Not the type I like.

[fenderdemon]

"Would some kind soul tell me who the J♦️, Q♣️ and the K♣️ are based on, please."

Looks like

JD is Doug McKenzie
KC is Dan White
QC is Alizee Guinochet

those are my guesses......

Hey

Thanks for the reply, however, they are most definitely not your guesses, I'm afraid, with the possible exception of Dan White being K♣️.

Doug McKenzie is usually the K♣️ (but doesn't seem to appear in the Black Lions) and Alizee is always the Q♠️. The J ♦️ is still an enigma...

[Card Player]

Earth/Faith, tattoo or marker?

Elephants in Denmark.  No soap, radio!

LOL No Elephants or Hippos. Earth/Faith on DB's wrist. Is that a tattoo OR written in sharpie (marker) ink?

[Blockheads88]

So are we going have the shipping issues with the Blue Decks?

Got tracking number a couple a days ago and still no movement. Looks to be same issue as with Black Decks.

[HankMan]

I have not even get any tracking number..

[Wilko]

Not had any update on my order. No tracking number. Nothing.
I never found Blaines own shipping problematic. I can understand them wanting to farm it out to another company though. Problem is who do you contact to raise your concern. You contact Blaine, who has to contact GW, blaine then gets back to you with the update. Maybe it would be easier if they just handled it all themselves.
Plus I never had any customs charges when Blaine shipped out precious decks. The last decks I had (black lions) shipped by GW got caught for a charge!

[Don Boyer]

I received an email notification on the 19th.  Checked the tracking - they were received by the USPS at Grand Prairie, Texas on the 20th, the very next day.  I'm assuming that's a suburb of Dallas, as Gambler's Warehouse is also located in a Dallas suburb.

Not had any update on my order. No tracking number. Nothing.
I never found Blaines own shipping problematic. I can understand them wanting to farm it out to another company though. Problem is who do you contact to raise your concern. You contact Blaine, who has to contact GW, blaine then gets back to you with the update. Maybe it would be easier if they just handled it all themselves.
Plus I never had any customs charges when Blaine shipped out precious decks. The last decks I had (black lions) shipped by GW got caught for a charge!

As far as Customs charges, Wilko - that's not the fault nor responsibility of the shipper, it's the responsibility of the recipient and the fault of your nation's Customs regulations.  It's all a matter of whether your country's Customs Office decides your shipment falls in a category requiring Customs fees.  If you weren't paying them when Blaine was shipping them before, count yourself lucky but don't expect that to go on indefinitely.  If you don't like the fees, talk to your elected representatives (assuming you live in a democracy) about eliminating them.

Earth/Faith, tattoo or marker?

Elephants in Denmark.  No soap, radio!

LOL No Elephants or Hippos. Earth/Faith on DB's wrist. Is that a tattoo OR written in sharpie (marker) ink?

Looks like magic marker to me.  Tattoos are usually better-defined, even when done in a prison with a sewing needle and ballpoint pen ink - those look smeared by sweat and skin oils.

"Would some kind soul tell me who the J♦️, Q♣️ and the K♣️ are based on, please."

Looks like

JD is Doug McKenzie
KC is Dan White
QC is Alizee Guinochet

those are my guesses......

Hey

Thanks for the reply, however, they are most definitely not your guesses, I'm afraid, with the possible exception of Dan White being K♣️.

Doug McKenzie is usually the K♣️ (but doesn't seem to appear in the Black Lions) and Alizee is always the Q♠️. The J ♦️ is still an enigma...

This is a quote from the Playing Card Wiki with the most recent info they have on David's courts, coming from the Split Spades Lions:

"Some of the court cards feature special faces; The King of Spades is David Blaine, The Queen of Hearts is his mother, the Queen of Spades is Lonneke Engel (a close friend), the Queen of Clubs is Denise (one of the producers), the King of Hearts is Bill Kalush, the King of Clubs is his friend from HS named Lou, the Jack of Hearts is Mark Stutzman (who drew the deck), the Jack of Spades is his brother, the Jack of Diamonds is Dan White, and the Jack of Clubs is Doug McKenzie."

PCW was a great resource in its day but is woefully out-of-date today.  I wish it could have been maintained.

[Blackjacker]

So are we going have the shipping issues with the Blue Decks?

Got tracking number a couple a days ago and still no movement. Looks to be same issue as with Black Decks.

I got a shipping notice and tracking # on the 19th for a blue brick.

Just got notice that it was delivered at 11:11 this morning. Hopefully I get home before the blizzard buries it.

[PrincessTrouble]

FWIW, the registration on my blue decks is better than the registration on my black decks.  Though it's probably just luck of the draw.

[krisnapati]

Hi, just got my black lion 3 days ago and its traditionally cut, but for me it doesn't matter if it's not, the more important is how the card handle and feels, over all they not good as Gator back, i had my gator last longer than black lion, 1st i pull the card from the box hold it in my hand the bottom and the top card start to banded, after few table shuffle the start bending all of them, but after few break spring cut etc i place them into the box clip in card clip they good to go again, i don't like the fact that the marking system is really hard to read, especially when you are performer, i prefers madison marking system more easy to read, if you magician, hidden or not people not really care about it as long as they enjoy your performance. but over all i love the black lion, they stand out and really cool deck by it self

CMIIW

[Don Boyer]

Hi, just got my black lion 3 days ago and its traditionally cut, but for me it doesn't matter if it's not, the more important is how the card handle and feels, over all they not good as Gator back, i had my gator last longer than black lion, 1st i pull the card from the box hold it in my hand the bottom and the top card start to banded, after few table shuffle the start bending all of them, but after few break spring cut etc i place them into the box clip in card clip they good to go again, i don't like the fact that the marking system is really hard to read, especially when you are performer, i prefers madison marking system more easy to read, if you magician, hidden or not people not really care about it as long as they enjoy your performance. but over all i love the black lion, they stand out and really cool deck by it self

CMIIW

The marking system is more of an unadvertised extra feature - they aren't ideal for many applications because of the difficulty of reading them, but at the same time they're more difficult for a spectator to notice, especially because they aren't in the typical location for card markings (the top left and bottom right corners, as these are the corners most likely to be exposed when a player is holding a hand of cards and you can only see the backs).

[52whitelions]

Has anyone else noticed that the cut of the black lions vs the white lions (black label) is different?  Im not 100% sure, but the stock, quality, and cut feel different.

For instance, I cant faro shuffle consistently with any of my white lions, but the black lions will practically faro themselves.  Anyone else have a hard time faro'ing with the white lions (series b/black label)  ?

[Don Boyer]

Has anyone else noticed that the cut of the black lions vs the white lions (black label) is different?  Im not 100% sure, but the stock, quality, and cut feel different.

For instance, I cant faro shuffle consistently with any of my white lions, but the black lions will practically faro themselves.  Anyone else have a hard time faro'ing with the white lions (series b/black label)  ?

Regarding faro shuffles, I noticed that the White Lions will faro top to bottom while the Black Lions are the reverse, faro shuffling from bottom to top.  It has to do with the cut made when the cards were die-punched from the paper.  White Lions use the "modern cut", where cards are punched face-up, from back to front as the die penetrates the paper, making them beveled for a top-to-bottom faro.  Modern cut is more efficient for manufacturers, but not as good for table shuffles.  Traditionally-cut cards are cut out face-down, with the die penetrating the face and coming out the back.  This allows for easier shuffling and bottom-to-top faro shuffles, meaning you can table shuffle them face down and make a faro rather than having to hold them face up.

I learned from USPC at the last 52+Joker convention that the company occasionally has trouble feeding paper in the cutter one way and will flip it before cutting it if this is the case, so the Black Lions were "accidentally" traditionally cut likely because of paper feed problems.  Many magicians prefer the traditional cut and casinos for the most part insist on it for their custom-made decks.

The quality of the paper is a little more subjective, but the consensus seems to be that the WLs had a better stock than the BLs.

[52whitelions]

Regarding faro shuffles, I noticed that the White Lions will faro top to bottom while the Black Lions are the reverse, faro shuffling from bottom to top.  It has to do with the cut made when the cards were die-punched from the paper.  White Lions use the "modern cut", where cards are punched face-up, from back to front as the die penetrates the paper, making them beveled for a top-to-bottom faro.  Modern cut is more efficient for manufacturers, but not as good for table shuffles.  Traditionally-cut cards are cut out face-down, with the die penetrating the face and coming out the back.  This allows for easier shuffling and bottom-to-top faro shuffles, meaning you can table shuffle them face down and make a faro rather than having to hold them face up.

I learned from USPC at the last 52+Joker convention that the company occasionally has trouble feeding paper in the cutter one way and will flip it before cutting it if this is the case, so the Black Lions were "accidentally" traditionally cut likely because of paper feed problems.  Many magicians prefer the traditional cut and casinos for the most part insist on it for their custom-made decks.

The quality of the paper is a little more subjective, but the consensus seems to be that the WLs had a better stock than the BLs.

Thanks Dan! You seem to have a plethora of knowledge when it comes to cards!  So, are  you saying that if I take my White Lions and flip them (face up), i should be able to faro them as normal as I can with the traditionally cut Black lions? 

[HankMan]

Thanks Dan! You seem to have a plethora of knowledge when it comes to cards!  So, are  you saying that if I take my White Lions and flip them (face up), i should be able to faro them as normal as I can with the traditionally cut Black lions? 

Well practically yes, that will be the case. However it you continue to break in the deck you should be able to get both deck to faro easily both way facing up or facing down.

As I did to the black lion, I start with the face down faro and repeat that a few times then try doing the face up faro. If it doesn't work repeat the process. You can also add other things such as riffle shuffle, dribble, spring lepaul spread in between.

Check out on youtube (52kards) the break in process and once you get that done, faro shouldn't be a problem both way.

[52whitelions]

As I did to the black lion, I start with the face down faro and repeat that a few times then try doing the face up faro. If it doesn't work repeat the process. You can also add other things such as riffle shuffle, dribble, spring lepaul spread in between.

Thanks!  Did your black lions come traditionally cut as mine did?  A lot of people seem to have received theirs modern cut and arent able to faro them out of the box.  I think we may have lucked out and got some from a batch that was cut traditionally...   

[HankMan]

Yup I got mine traditional cut as well. but I only open 1 out of the 12..

[52whitelions]

Yup I got mine traditional cut as well. but I only open 1 out of the 12..

Just opened my second deck of my brick and its traditionally cut as well...so far so good!

[HolyJJ]

Whilst I'm definitely not the world's biggest USPCC fan, I did like the White Lions decks very much -- the cards where thicker, and definitely a lot more durable than present day USPCC output.

I used quite a lot of White Lions decks back in the day, and all of them were traditionally cut, and that was another reason why I liked them so much.

The Black Lions cards were probably amongst the worst I've ever handled... but the White Lions were definitely amongst the best USPCC decks I've ever handled, along with the Richard Turner gold seal Bee decks

[fenderdemon]

Whilst I'm definitely not the world's biggest USPCC fan, I did like the White Lions decks very much -- the cards where thicker, and definitely a lot more durable than present day USPCC output.

I used quite a lot of White Lions decks back in the day, and all of them were traditionally cut, and that was another reason why I liked them so much.

The Black Lions cards were probably amongst the worst I've ever handled... but the White Lions were definitely amongst the best USPCC decks I've ever handled, along with the Richard Turner gold seal Bee decks

I couldn't agree more, Holy. The stock the White Lions Series Series A (Blue) offered and Series B offer, is exceptionally good. I'm sure the Series A Red is just as good, however, I don't see the point of opening one of mine.

When David was selling the Series B Collectors Boxes, (12 decks in each box) I managed to snag 8 of them for $99.99 each. That equates to $8.33 or £5.78 at today's conversion rate. An absolute steal, IMHO.

In fact, I'd go as far as saying, that they're one of the best decks I've ever handled and they last ages, to boot.