Developing new card technology

[xela]

As printing capabilities advance, I am starting to wonder what else can be possible to have on a deck of standard playing cards. I always feel restrained by the capabilities of the USPCC, and their unfortunate unwillingness to invest in an R&D department.

Would it be possible to have holographic foil on a deck of cards that handles well? What about perfectly centered faces and backs? Would it be possible to create a plastic deck that has a finish of its paper counterparts yet all the elasticity and durability of a plastic deck? What about black paper for black decks, or blue paper for blue decks? What about a printer that can handle the level of detail that modern designers require?

What new ideas would you like to see incorporated into playing cards, and perhaps even tuck cases and gaff cards, in the future? Discuss.

[NathanCanadas]

I would love to see a box made out of a material other than cardboard. This is a great thread!

[loldudex2]

I think it would be awesome if you could due the paper so you could have colored stocks. Also, holographic foil, like that of Trading Cards, such as Yu-Gi-Oh would be awesome!

[Evan]

1. FIND BLACK PAPER TO PRINT ON!!!!!  :-*

2. The LED Deck that Ellusionist joked about would be cool.

3. Debossed deck that handles well

[loldudex2]

1. FIND BLACK PAPER TO PRINT ON!!!!!  :-*

2. The LED Deck that Ellusionist joked about would be cool.

3. Debossed deck that handles well

A debossed deck would be cool, but it would be near impossible to make it handle well. Also it would get annoying if some of the embossing/ devising got "squished" and flattened out.

[Kanped]

Holographic gaff cards that appear to be one card from a certain angle and another card from another angle.  I've always wanted to do an ambitious card routine where two (or, preferably, 52) spectators agree that the card you produced was the selected card, but disagree on what the value of the card actually was.  Any other ideas on how you could do that would be welcome, BTW (or steal it if you can work it out, I don't mind; just wanna see it).

[moonexe]

Metallic ink that actually looks metallic, like the foil on boxes, would be a good start.

Replacing the ink by dye would be a possible solution for the colored paper... but would probably be bad for precision and small details.

Ink that doesn't affect the handling, for black decks that handle the same as their white counterparts.

Tuck boxes that are more durable.

Cards that faro perfectly regardless of the orientation.

[xela]

@Kanped: It would be interesting to incorporate two images into the calendering on the cards. As you know, the double-image hologram is produced because two different images are printed on different sides of the ridges. I'm sure by modifying the embossing it's possible, but I think it would take an insane amount of money to research that into reality.

[jriffel]

The real R&D needs to go into better paper stock, finer inks, and a digital press system.  The current press, inks, and paper define how fine the design is and how saturated the paper can get.  We have the technology to get a fully digital press design in place.  Until this happens, we won't get better color or more detailed designs.  As far as centering goes, other presses do this just fine (Piatnik, Desjgn, Fournier, Modiano....) it's USPCC that can't seem to get their internal act together.  Even the "Q1" falls unprofessionally short in this catagory.

[xela]

The real R&D needs to go into better paper stock, finer inks, and a digital press system.  The current press, inks, and paper define how fine the design is and how saturated the paper can get.  We have the technology to get a fully digital press design in place.  Until this happens, we won't get better color or more detailed designs.  As far as centering goes, other presses do this just fine (Piatnik, Desjgn, Fournier, Modiano....) it's USPCC that can't seem to get their internal act together.  Even the "Q1" falls unprofessionally short in this catagory.

I agree wholeheartedly jriffel - and the things you brought up are what I struggle with every day as a result.

You do seem to know quite a bit about card production, do you mind me asking how that came to be? 

[Don Boyer]

Guys, read this - I wrote it in the topic on the censored Karnival Inferno deck:

It does suck that the deck is being censored.

It would be very nice indeed if there was an independent company out there for manufacturing playing cards that dealt specifically with small-batch and specialty designs like the ones we're always buying - and with a quality level that could meet (or even EXCEED) the quality offered by USPC.  It's about time their monopolistic hold on the marketplace got challenged.  Has this ever gone before the Justice Department?  The closest thing they have to competition in the US is U.S. Games Systems and perhaps Paulson - but USGS deals almost exclusively in Tarot decks (and their quality of playing cards is meh) and Paulson deals largely with casinos.

It would need to be a company much like Dark Horse was when it first started publishing comics - a company where artists have near-total control and freedom over their work and retain the rights afterwards (except on licensed properties like Star Wars, Predator, etc.).  You could get ANY deck printed, and the company would merely be a contractor working for you.  No "you use my brand or pay more," no "you can't print that," no "that'll take two months...no, wait, three months...no, hold on, six months," no "oh, we did this for you without asking - it costs extra" - none of the crap that little companies with big aspirations and ideas have to deal with.

I think I need to talk with my fiancee about a new business model...

The ideas I expressed here seem to mesh very well with what's being discussed.

The USPC is the 800-pound gorilla of the market - they MASS-PRODUCE like it's going out of style.  They're less concerned about someone's little art project and the needs/desires of a handful of designers as opposed to the needs/desires of the major retailers and casino chains.  As such, they can run rough-shod over your ideas and not really care much.

But if there was a specialty printer that could MATCH or EXCEED their quality, who's main goal WASN'T mass-produced decks (though that would certainly be possible) but limited-edition and short-run decks.  A company that didn't charge a princely ransom for a single prototype deck.  A company that treated your order as if it was just as important as every other order from all their customers.  A company willing to invest in new playing card technologies.

I want to really make such a company happen.  Seriously.

[xela]

Don, Cartamundi, not Paulson, are their other US competition (Jarden acquired Gemaco). Paulson is based out of Mexico I believe.

I admit, the USPCC business model is all kinds of wrong. It's very short-sighted and in no way long-term. They partnered with T11, which means that every last designer and card company will switch over to a competitor that can actually rival USPCC quality and market their brand name properly.

Unfortunately, here is the reality of things:

To start up a card production company would cost hundreds of thousands of investment money. Now, anyone business savvy will only have to put in 5-10% of that in their own money, and will acquire the rest from investors. The next problem is with printing. There are two routes, hire people who know the industry but want to expand it and pay their salaries, or do it yourself. Odds are you can't be a business executive and a card guru at the same time, so you'll hire people at competitive pay with the USPCC. Next comes developing your product line. You will be testing samples and getting the perfect finish and stock combinations possible. Of course, to be competitive with the USPCC, you will want to give people options.

Next you'll have to spend thousands of dollars sending samples to everyone for free. Not just people that ask, but to every last magician in the world. After that comes getting in a big name to print with you, like Ellusionist. Once they're on board, 100% of the little guys will be okay with switching because they will no longer be reliant on USPCC branding.

Then, of course, you will want to also contact casinos for a steady income.

And when you are successful, USPCC or Jarden will just buy you out like they have with pretty much every other company in existence. Recently, Gemaco, Fournier and Hoyle were all acquired.

[Don Boyer]

Now THAT'S the way to think positive, ALEX.  (I'm so laughing my ass off right now!)

Another way to go about it is to find a small printing company that's losing business - many of them are these days, with desktop publishing and everything getting printed on the Internet instead of on paper.  They have the printing experience, they may even have the right hardware and software already in place.  There's still the issue of getting the testing done and getting samples out to all of creation.

I wasn't even thinking of going after casino business, at least not at first.  It would be a stable income source, but it would also make those casino customers my prime focus, at the expense of the smaller design companies like yours.  I want to make a company that's a "boutique" house for making cards in small-medium volume without it costing a fortune.  As a business idea, it needs refinement, but it's not an impossible dream.

Boil it down to brass tacks: everyone who works with them complains about USPC, but no one is doing anything about it.  I want to do something about it.

[zaganh]

has anyone heard of liquipel its like a spray and it locks on a molecular level with like nano protection or somthing and you need a microscope to see it you cant tell its there it waterproofs tech as its a spray it waterproofs all the inside and everywhere if it was aplied to cards the water would just glide right off them ^^

[Lara Krystle "Lane"]

has anyone heard of liquipel its like a spray and it locks on a molecular level with like nano protection or somthing and you need a microscope to see it you cant tell its there it waterproofs tech as its a spray it waterproofs all the inside and everywhere if it was aplied to cards the water would just glide right off them ^^

Will that affect the finish or handling of the cards?

[moonexe]

has anyone heard of liquipel its like a spray and it locks on a molecular level with like nano protection or somthing and you need a microscope to see it you cant tell its there it waterproofs tech as its a spray it waterproofs all the inside and everywhere if it was aplied to cards the water would just glide right off them ^^

Do you mean that crazy-strong water repellent that makes the water glide right off as if it was magically pushed away? It would be amazing if we could protect a deck of cards like that! The only problem would be that the finish would probably feel like new even after the deck is broken in...

[zaganh]

has anyone heard of liquipel its like a spray and it locks on a molecular level with like nano protection or somthing and you need a microscope to see it you cant tell its there it waterproofs tech as its a spray it waterproofs all the inside and everywhere if it was aplied to cards the water would just glide right off them ^^

Will that affect the finish or handling of the cards?

im not sure i wondred that maybe it could make the cards better maybe they would always feel like new or they would handle horrible ><

[zaganh]

has anyone heard of liquipel its like a spray and it locks on a molecular level with like nano protection or somthing and you need a microscope to see it you cant tell its there it waterproofs tech as its a spray it waterproofs all the inside and everywhere if it was aplied to cards the water would just glide right off them ^^

Do you mean that crazy-strong water repellent that makes the water glide right off as if it was magically pushed away? It would be amazing if we could protect a deck of cards like that! The only problem would be that the finish would probably feel like new even after the deck is broken in...

yeah ^^ that uses the power of the sun to bind it or somthing crazy i know right or what about this just the box is coated then the water coudlnt get in and your cards would be protected you could drop your deck box in the pool and they would be fine tae them out in the rain etc

[Lara Krystle "Lane"]

has anyone heard of liquipel its like a spray and it locks on a molecular level with like nano protection or somthing and you need a microscope to see it you cant tell its there it waterproofs tech as its a spray it waterproofs all the inside and everywhere if it was aplied to cards the water would just glide right off them ^^

Do you mean that crazy-strong water repellent that makes the water glide right off as if it was magically pushed away? It would be amazing if we could protect a deck of cards like that! The only problem would be that the finish would probably feel like new even after the deck is broken in...

yeah ^^ that uses the power of the sun to bind it or somthing crazy i know right or what about this just the box is coated then the water coudlnt get in and your cards would be protected you could drop your deck box in the pool and they would be fine tae them out in the rain etc

i'd love to use them on the box! But if you drop it in the pool the water will still seep through the seams and gaps hahaha but still.

http://www.liquipel.com/

i think its an awesome product![/color]

[moonexe]

If the product is affordable, someone should try it on a deck of rider backs or something to see how it goes!

[Kanped]

that uses the power of the sun to bind it

Did I lose conciousness while reading this thread?  It was all about how the USPCC is controlling the market by buying up all competition and now it appears to be nonsense.  What's going on?

[zaganh]

has anyone heard of liquipel its like a spray and it locks on a molecular level with like nano protection or somthing and you need a microscope to see it you cant tell its there it waterproofs tech as its a spray it waterproofs all the inside and everywhere if it was aplied to cards the water would just glide right off them ^^

Do you mean that crazy-strong water repellent that makes the water glide right off as if it was magically pushed away? It would be amazing if we could protect a deck of cards like that! The only problem would be that the finish would probably feel like new even after the deck is broken in...

yeah ^^ that uses the power of the sun to bind it or somthing crazy i know right or what about this just the box is coated then the water coudlnt get in and your cards would be protected you could drop your deck box in the pool and they would be fine tae them out in the rain etc

i'd love to use them on the box! But if you drop it in the pool the water will still seep through the seams and gaps hahaha but still.

http://www.liquipel.com/

i think its an awesome product!

haha we need more box tech now

If the product is affordable, someone should try it on a deck of rider backs or something to see how it goes!

imagine if it made cards feel amazing turned rider backs into feeling like jerrys

that uses the power of the sun to bind it

Did I lose conciousness while reading this thread?  It was all about how the USPCC is controlling the market by buying up all competition and now it appears to be nonsense.  What's going on?

laughs i think the stuff about the USPCC was more off topic the holograms and waterproof cards and other dream tech and advancements in playing card technology is what this thread is about not censoring or buying people out or things

[Don Boyer]

that uses the power of the sun to bind it

Did I lose conciousness while reading this thread?  It was all about how the USPCC is controlling the market by buying up all competition and now it appears to be nonsense.  What's going on?

laughs i think the stuff about the USPCC was more off topic the holograms and waterproof cards and other dream tech and advancements in playing card technology is what this thread is about not censoring or buying people out or things

ACTUALLY, the discussion was turning towards how the USPC doesn't invest much in R&D, happy to churn out the same products in the same way ad nauseum.

I suggested the idea that there should be a printer of playing cards dedicated to the small-run designers.  I suggested it VERY SERIOUSLY because I thought it was something whose time has come.  USPC is a practical monopoly on the US market - Cartamundi is a distant second, the others are all also-rans...

Then you jumped in with this spray-on product and the topic veered from one curb to the other with no signal lights blinking. 

I'll grant you that a waterproofing spray with a "nano-finish" might be a great thing for playing cards.  But until you actually test it, everything else said is pure conjecture.  And it could also completely suck, because the cards themselves require a certain amount of moisture in the paper; it practically breathes.  But still - conjecture and guesswork, nothing more.

Now, is anyone else interested in the idea of a printer meant for the designers like the ones we see around here?  A company that caters to you rather than the other way around?

[Evan]

Having a printing thing for the small designers? Thats a great idea Good@Sabacc
All of their prints are being postponed over and over and a separate one for them would solve that problem

[zaganh]

that uses the power of the sun to bind it

Did I lose conciousness while reading this thread?  It was all about how the USPCC is controlling the market by buying up all competition and now it appears to be nonsense.  What's going on?

laughs i think the stuff about the USPCC was more off topic the holograms and waterproof cards and other dream tech and advancements in playing card technology is what this thread is about not censoring or buying people out or things

ACTUALLY, the discussion was turning towards how the USPC doesn't invest much in R&D, happy to churn out the same products in the same way ad nauseum.

I suggested the idea that there should be a printer of playing cards dedicated to the small-run designers.  I suggested it VERY SERIOUSLY because I thought it was something whose time has come.  USPC is a practical monopoly on the US market - Cartamundi is a distant second, the others are all also-rans...

Then you jumped in with this spray-on product and the topic veered from one curb to the other with no signal lights blinking.

I'll grant you that a waterproofing spray with a "nano-finish" might be a great thing for playing cards.  But until you actually test it, everything else said is pure conjecture.  And it could also completely suck, because the cards themselves require a certain amount of moisture in the paper; it practically breathes.  But still - conjecture and guesswork, nothing more.

Now, is anyone else interested in the idea of a printer meant for the designers like the ones we see around here?  A company that caters to you rather than the other way around?

haha i understand what you was saying now thats a good idea it would be awesome it must feel amazing to have your own deck out

[NathanCanadas]

Hey, we are planning on making a deck called the Discourse deck together, with most Discourse members. If you want, you could be a part of it. Here is the thread where we plan it all out. We could use your doodles!
http://aethercards.com/discourse/index.php?topic=1595.40

[SpiritsCrusader]

Tuck boxes that are more durable.

I absolutely agree, after just a few uses the edges and corners start bending or splitting apart and the box's break, Better box's that last would be great!

[zaganh]

Hey, we are planning on making a deck called the Discourse deck together, with most Discourse members. If you want, you could be a part of it. Here is the thread where we plan it all out. We could use your doodles!
http://aethercards.com/discourse/index.php?topic=1595.40

im in if you like my desighns

http://aethercards.com/discourse/index.php?topic=1584.new;topicseen#new

[NathanCanadas]

I do like them. Welcome. Feel free to pick what you would like to work on. All the funds with go to Aether Cards.

[zaganh]

I do like them. Welcome. Feel free to pick what you would like to work on. All the funds with go to Aether Cards.

has anyone drawn anything for it yet are they any doodles up ? what would you like me to try help desighn ? the gaff card would be cool to draw

[NathanCanadas]

We have just started yesterday, and there will be some doodles up by Sunday.

[zaganh]

We have just started yesterday, and there will be some doodles up by Sunday.

i oculd do a quick doodle now if you would like of somthing ? what theme did everyone decide on ?

i just did one

[xela]

Back on topic guys. There is an entire thread for that in D&D.

Don, finding the right combo can't be too impossible. take a look at Misdirections Mystery. they are based out of china but wow, their decks handle like a dream!

as for a printing company for the little guys, we would all love that, but it needs to be marketed well.

[jriffel]

I suggested the idea that there should be a printer of playing cards dedicated to the small-run designers.  I suggested it VERY SERIOUSLY because I thought it was something whose time has come.

We all wish such a thing existed, but the economics just aren't there:: 
To set up presses, computers, fast paper cutters, a conveyor line and finishing tanks think of investing a couple million USD. 
For the humidity/temp controlled building, utilities, local fees, OSHA, environtmental waste permits for the used ink and finishing chemicals, think another couple million USD. 
Contracts for large paper stock supplies, huge ink supplies, intelligent labor for running the presses, graphics artists to re-work designs to work on the presses... lots of investment capital.
Then there's marketing/sales, production control costs, and the department that everybody hates ---- legal.
Someone that invests this much to get a good printshop running will not be able to run small playing card deck runs and keep in business.  Unless you are given a multi-million dollar grant without strings attached.
[rant]
I dont see the above happening any time soon.  The best we can try to do is show Bicycle/USPCC/Jardan corp. that they are the ruin of an entire profit center/industry.  We have to demonstrate the economic cost of ignoring or shunning the little guy. 
Perhaps we can convince USPCC to reopen the old production floor for small runs or experimental processes.
I won't hold my breath.
[/rant]

[Kanped]

I have a sneaking suspicion that a gifted graphic designer and chemist could find a work-around to print runs of about 100 decks for much less than USPCC and rival or better the quality.  Definitely not the thousands that we expect from a run now, though.

[Derek]

I've always wondered why they can't make black decks on black paper. it'd be so much simpler and it would take away the chipping issues, and just look cooler overall.

[Evan]

I've always wondered why they can't make black decks on black paper. it'd be so much simpler and it would take away the chipping issues, and just look cooler overall.

I said that in my post too. It really bothers me!
I heard that they can't find a black paper that is that good of quality

[moonexe]

if the paper was black, the ink color would probably not show up as well. That's what I think the problem is here, not the quality of the paper.

Kanped, I've been thinking about that too - good stock shouldn't be that big a deal, all we really need is to develop a good finish. If their prototypes are handmade and are of decent quality, it can't be that hard - it just requires equipment that no individual can afford without some serious savings.
Do we have a poker player here that is rolling on money? Or a blackjack cheat?

[Paul Carpenter]

I think one of the biggest changes that could (reasonably) happen in the production process, while boring, would be a super precise cutting method so that every card is 100% exactly the same registration as every other card. I envision a computer controlled laser cutter that optically aligns every sheet and then uses a laser to cut the cards out.

Having perfect precision would afford designers some ability to do interesting things in terms of the design, bringing details to within a micron of the edges.

Ask me why this particular subject is fresh in my mind...

As to printing on black stock, do get any kind of full color on it properly you'd essentially need to print a base pass in white then print the color on top of that. Otherwise, the colors will take on the black base and be very dull. Just take a black piece of construction paper and bust out some markers to see what I mean.

[moonexe]

I think one of the biggest changes that could (reasonably) happen in the production process, while boring, would be a super precise cutting method so that every card is 100% exactly the same registration as every other card. I envision a computer controlled laser cutter that optically aligns every sheet and then uses a laser to cut the cards out.

For a laser cutter to work out, the finish on the decks would need to be very resistant to heat, or it would melt/burn a little during the cutting and make for pretty crappy edges. And edges make or break the faro ability of a deck.

[Kanped]

Yeah, any computer controlled cutting machine could do an exactly precise job; why do you have to use lasers?  They're really expensive.

[jriffel]

In many large paper cutters, lasers are used for precise alignment and blades are still used for the cut.  If you look on uncut sheets, you can see the registration marks and alignment symbols between the cards.  The tools are there already, for whatever reason, the marks are not used by the cutters.

[moonexe]

Because USPCC, that's why. Pure laziness.
The only way to make them change would be to have casinos and other big customers actually care.

[Don Boyer]

It's simply a matter of quality control, regarding the cutters.  Also, there's the sharpness of the blades to take into account.  Laser cutting isn't so crazy, really - more in electric costs for running a cutting laser but less in terms of blade replacement, and every cut is sharp, not just the first few hundred on the sharp blade.


Black stock printing could be achieved if the "ink" was more like a laminate layer, like silkscreen.  If you can silkscreen a black t-shirt without having to make a white one first, I see no reason why it couldn't work on cards.  You'd have to evenly coat the cards after printing to insure a flat surface - that would be the tricky part.  Without that, the cards would never fan or shuffle smoothly.

[jriffel]

Black stock printing could be achieved if the "ink" was more like a laminate layer, like silkscreen.  If you can silkscreen a black t-shirt without having to make a white one first, I see no reason why it couldn't work on cards.  You'd have to evenly coat the cards after printing to insure a flat surface - that would be the tricky part.  Without that, the cards would never fan or shuffle smoothly.

That's getting to be a pretty thick card!  It would be tricky to keep it flexible enough with enough of a snap to keep everyone fairly happy.

[Gunshy1]

smooth magic finish needs to happen. or half smooth half air-cushioned magic finish.