Sketch deck v1

[Lukas]

Hey there!

I am new here but I want to show you the last deck I designed.
A picture of it is attached.
It was printed by http://www.makeplayingcards.com/ with a simple 310gsm linen stock. I used the simple linen stock because it has no minimum order amount. Otherwise I would have chosen the linen air stock.
All cards are custom. The face cards, the suits and even the numbers.
Hope you like it and please give feedback.

Best wishes,
Lukas

PS: sorry for the horrible spread ^^

[Don Boyer]

Hey there!

I am new here but I want to show you the last deck I designed.
A picture of it is attached.
It was printed by http://www.makeplayingcards.com/ with a simple 310gsm linen stock. I used the simple linen stock because it has no minimum order amount. Otherwise I would have chosen the linen air stock.
All cards are custom. The face cards, the suits and even the numbers.
Hope you like it and please give feedback.

Best wishes,
Lukas

PS: sorry for the horrible spread ^^

It's very hard to evaluate cards that one can barely distinguish.  Better photos, please!

Indices are too far from the edge for easy use.  Push them further into the corners.

[Lukas]

Thank you very much for the response.
I attached some artworks of the deck. Should be better quality now.
Hope you like it
I will push the indices a bit more to the corner for the next print run.

[Don Boyer]

Thank you very much for the response.
I attached some artworks of the deck. Should be better quality now.
Hope you like it
I will push the indices a bit more to the corner for the next print run.

Use a full-sized zero in the numeral 10 - that small zero makes it look like a 1 with a decimal.  Some French decks do still use a 1 instead of an A for the ace.

The font is clean and neat in comparison to the rest of the art.  Looks almost odd in the way that they don't blend.  I'm all for a neat, easy-to-read index, but perhaps there's a typeface you can chose that's more in the same theme as the artwork.  And speaking of those indices - the values appear to be off-center compared to the suit pips.  It gives them an overall sloppy appearance.

[Lukas]

Thank you!
I tried the full sized zero before, but i really disliked it. The smaller one fits better to the sketchy way it is drawn.
Actually, there is no real font used. I drew all the letters and numbers by myself to make it match the suits.
What do you think about filling two of the index suits for better distinction? (e.g. spades and hearts)
You are right. Now, that you speak of the positions of the indices, they are way too much on the right side. I think of putting them to the left side instead of centering them. Personally I think the sloppy way makes the deck more "unique" and it fits much better. But that is only my opinion
What do you think?

[Don Boyer]

Thank you!
I tried the full sized zero before, but i really disliked it. The smaller one fits better to the sketchy way it is drawn.
Actually, there is no real font used. I drew all the letters and numbers by myself to make it match the suits.
What do you think about filling two of the index suits for better distinction? (e.g. spades and hearts)
You are right. Now, that you speak of the positions of the indices, they are way too much on the right side. I think of putting them to the left side instead of centering them. Personally I think the sloppy way makes the deck more "unique" and it fits much better. But that is only my opinion
What do you think?

"Unique" does not necessarily equal "good."  I make something unique every time I sit on a toilet bowl - you don't see anyone trying to collect it, do you?  Forgive my harshness - it's a very common misconception among artists making decks for the first time.  You try so hard to stand out and be unique, you toss every design rule of what makes a functional playing card deck out the window in the process.  Don't try so hard!

Indices are critical to a modern playing card design.  An easy-to-read index makes the cards easier to use, period.  No one likes to play with difficult-to-use cards.

[Lukas]

I moved the index a bit more to the corner.
Additionally, I "filled" the spades and the diamonds for an easier distinction.
Is it better now?

[Don Boyer]

I moved the index a bit more to the corner.
Additionally, I "filled" the spades and the diamonds for an easier distinction.
Is it better now?

It's better.  Consider stretching the width of the values (letters and numbers) to match the width of the pips beneath them, and insure they're about the same size on every card.  At the least, you should center the values relative to the index pips for a neater appearance.  Values are usually larger - about twice as tall and the same width on a standard deck's indices - because in games, values are often more important than suits.

[Lukas]

Thank you!
I increased the letter size a bit, decreased the size of the pips and centered the letters above the pips. Looks pretty neat now.
Example is attached.

[Sarah F]

The indices looks much better, made a big difference!

Ok, as a designer, I always hate when the client say "make the logo bigger!" So I'm sorry for what I'm about to suggest   I feel like the pips on your number cards are kinda small, and the cards might benefit from making them larger.  Same with your courts. I feel like they could be increased in size as well.

Also, the hearts and clubs could have more contrast by being filled in more - like you did for the diamonds and spades. For a nice functional game, I know it's great to be able to identify cards from across the table for tired eyes or low light.

The arrangement of the pips on the number cards is a great solution!

[Don Boyer]

The indices looks much better, made a big difference!

Ok, as a designer, I always hate when the client say "make the logo bigger!" So I'm sorry for what I'm about to suggest   I feel like the pips on your number cards are kinda small, and the cards might benefit from making them larger.  Same with your courts. I feel like they could be increased in size as well.

Also, the hearts and clubs could have more contrast by being filled in more - like you did for the diamonds and spades. For a nice functional game, I know it's great to be able to identify cards from across the table for tired eyes or low light.

The arrangement of the pips on the number cards is a great solution!

I'm of a different opinion on this one.  I understand Sarah's points and there's some sense to them.  But as far as pip size, that can vary from deck to deck - it depends on the look you're trying to achieve.  Maybe a little bigger would make them clearer, but I wouldn't go too big.  And as far as filling in the hearts and clubs, he left them less filled intentionally, in order to allow one to more easily tell the difference between the two suits of the same color - spades and clubs are both black, but spades are dark and clubs are light, so they're easier to tell apart.  Same for the hearts and diamonds.  With a unique design like this, hand drawn and less distinct than carefully designed and printed shapes that have sharp edges to them, it helps make differentiation easier.

Overall, it reminds me a little of Bill Plympton's animation work.  I like it.

[sprouts1115]

Lukas - Borders on pips is always a bad idea.  Borders on courts is a tradition.  It seems you have a lot of white space and small pips.  Are you going minimal and sloppy?  If so, don't change a thing, but your cards may be a little hard to read at a distance....

[Don Boyer]

Lukas - Borders on pips is always a bad idea.  Borders on courts is a tradition.  It seems you have a lot of white space and small pips.  Are you going minimal and sloppy?  If so, don't change a thing, but your cards may be a little hard to read at a distance....

If one is going to break a design rule, one should have a reason for it.  It's not entirely unheard of for a spot card to have a border - it's just not commonly done.  In this case, because of the smaller center pips and the whole sketch theme, it seems to fit - it's a frame for the art.  At least that's my take on it.  If the indices are VERY EASY to read, he can get away with the center pips being a little more of a challenge, especially if it serves his theme.

[Lukas]

Thank you all for the replies.
@Sarah F: I made the pips a bit bigger. But making them too big looks horrible in my opinion. ^^
Yeah, the courts are a bit too small, I will increase the size for sure.
@sprouts1115: In my opinion, the border fits quite well for the spot cards. I think the "minimal and sloppy" way fits pretty good for the sketchy theme. Additionally, I wanted a bit more white space than usual.
@Don Boyer: Thank you for the support.
I will print the deck once more in a few days to see if the indices are easy to read. I hope so

[Lukas]

Hey there!
Do you think this deck is worth a Kickstarter campaign?
I definitely want to sell this deck, but in order to get a good quality stock, you have to order at least a thousand decks.
And this could be accomplished by a Kickstarter campaign, but if there are no people who would buy this deck, it is kinda difficult ^^
What do you think?

[Don Boyer]

Hey there!
Do you think this deck is worth a Kickstarter campaign?
I definitely want to sell this deck, but in order to get a good quality stock, you have to order at least a thousand decks.
And this could be accomplished by a Kickstarter campaign, but if there are no people who would buy this deck, it is kinda difficult ^^
What do you think?

I've been told that makeplayingcards.com has upped their game a bit, making better quality print work, though I think the ability to faro might leave something to be desired.  However, they're a popular choice for beginners coming out with their first deck - their minimum print run size is 1.  Yep, you can make as few as a single deck - many artists use them to make proofs of decks they later plan to print with other companies.  I've seen KS projects using MPC have goals as small as US$1,000 - and most projects with such a low goal succeed, unless the work being offered is really awful, and yours isn't.

Just be sure that you've crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's before launching.  There's a lot of factors to consider financially with receiving all those decks - however many you sell - and getting them shipped, especially when you have overseas clients and have to work out international shipping rates and fill out Customs forms for EACH package.  Not saying it's impossible, just that you need to account for every padded envelope, rigid box and strip of packing tape when working out goals and reward levels.

[Lukas]

Thank you so much for the answer. I really appreciate it.
The shipping is the difficult part, but as far as I can see, MPC offers a fulfillment service. This lowers my effort pretty much.
I planned to do a campaign with at least a 100 decks using the MPC linen stock (it is not that bad at all in my opinion). As I reach a thousand decks I would print them with LPCC. I really love the LPCC quality.
Both offer fulfillment services.
Do you have any ideas regarding advertisment?

[Don Boyer]

Thank you so much for the answer. I really appreciate it.
The shipping is the difficult part, but as far as I can see, MPC offers a fulfillment service. This lowers my effort pretty much.
I planned to do a campaign with at least a 100 decks using the MPC linen stock (it is not that bad at all in my opinion). As I reach a thousand decks I would print them with LPCC. I really love the LPCC quality.
Both offer fulfillment services.
Do you have any ideas regarding advertisment?

Hit up the collector forums.  Hit up game forums.  Hit up art forums.  Hit up design forums.

Ask admin Lee Asher about paid banner advertising on the forum and ad placements in 52 Plus Joker's two club magazines.

Remember that any ads you take out anywhere will cost money that you need to both factor into the project's cost AND pay up front, with no guarantee of the project succeeding.  In other words, spend your "mad money," not your rent and groceries money.

[Lukas]

Thanks!
I think I will promote the deck in those forums.
Banner advertising is a nice idea, but I don't have the resources ^^
As you mentioned, there is no guarantee of the project succeeding.

[Lukas]

Hey there!
Finally, I redesigned my website. Now I offer a wishlist for those who want to have this deck.
The wishlist provides only an estimation of the amount of decks, which would be bought on Kickstarter. I do not want to start a campaign, if there are to less decks, because of the minimum order amount of course. ^^
So, please sign up to the wishlist and share this deck for a Kickstarter success.
I think I will give out free decks for a few which are on the wishlist.
Here's the link to the deck and my website: http://lukasirzl.at/cards/sketch-deck
The images are a bit old and will be changed as soon as the new deck arrives.

[JackofDiamonds]

You know the whole point of Kickstarter is to set a threshold for your project, right? Calculate out what it will cost to print and ship a minimum run, and set that as your Kickstarter goal. You aren't obliged to do anything if the goal isn't met.

[Lukas]

Thank you for the response.
I calculated pretty much everything. I even calculated the costs for different manufacturers like LPCC, MPC, USPCC, ...
All in all I have the estimated costs and know how much the scenarios (worst, best) will cost.
But I do not want to start a Kickstarter campaign for about 10 decks. My goal is at least 500 decks. Otherwise the printing would be too expensive.
This is actually the reason I have the wishlist, to get an idea of how many people would like to have the deck.

[Don Boyer]

Thanks!
I think I will promote the deck in those forums.
Banner advertising is a nice idea, but I don't have the resources ^^
As you mentioned, there is no guarantee of the project succeeding.

You have no way of knowing that if you don't ask.  Our ad rates are low.  We're a popular site with a worldwide audience, but we're not exactly playboy.com, either!

Thank you for the response.
I calculated pretty much everything. I even calculated the costs for different manufacturers like LPCC, MPC, USPCC, ...
All in all I have the estimated costs and know how much the scenarios (worst, best) will cost.
But I do not want to start a Kickstarter campaign for about 10 decks. My goal is at least 500 decks. Otherwise the printing would be too expensive.
This is actually the reason I have the wishlist, to get an idea of how many people would like to have the deck.

You will never get an accurate measure of how many people want your deck on Kickstarter without launching a Kickstarter project.  Tire's too many ways serendipity comes into play when people discover projects they want to back.

The concept is simple.  If 500 decks is the minimum you need to print to make the deck affordable, then you price out your project and set your goal based on producing at least 500 decks (including some level of profit, of course).  You won't have to provide a single deck unless your project hits goal, so you won't be stuck paying higher per-deck costs for a small amount of deck orders.

At an order of 100 decks, MPC will charge you around $6-7 a pack depending on the features you seek - the price drops by close to half at a hundred decks and gets lower from there as you print more.  Price that at somewhere between $10-12 dollars and charge shipping separately - voila, you have a deck project.  Your goal could be as low as about $1,000 depending on your pricing - an easy goal to meet.  You want more features or a better printer?  Set stretch goals that allow you to pay for these features, covering your costs while still making you a little cash as profit.  There's no reason why you couldn't make 100 decks a suitable target and it almost insures success because the goal is so low.

[Don Boyer]

Thanks!
I think I will promote the deck in those forums.
Banner advertising is a nice idea, but I don't have the resources ^^
As you mentioned, there is no guarantee of the project succeeding.

You have no way of knowing that if you don't ask.  Our ad rates are low.  We're a popular site with a worldwide audience, but we're not exactly playboy.com, either!

Thank you for the response.
I calculated pretty much everything. I even calculated the costs for different manufacturers like LPCC, MPC, USPCC, ...
All in all I have the estimated costs and know how much the scenarios (worst, best) will cost.
But I do not want to start a Kickstarter campaign for about 10 decks. My goal is at least 500 decks. Otherwise the printing would be too expensive.
This is actually the reason I have the wishlist, to get an idea of how many people would like to have the deck.

You will never get an accurate measure of how many people want your deck on Kickstarter without launching a Kickstarter project.  There's too many ways serendipity comes into play when people discover projects they want to back.

The concept is simple.  If 500 decks is the minimum you need to print to make the deck affordable, then you price out your project and set your goal based on producing at least 500 decks (including some level of profit, of course).  You won't have to provide a single deck unless your project hits goal, so you won't be stuck paying higher per-deck costs for a small amount of deck orders.

At an order of 100 decks, MPC will charge you around $6-7 a pack depending on the features you seek - the price drops by close to half at a hundred decks and gets lower from there as you print more.  Price that at somewhere between $10-12 dollars and charge shipping separately - voila, you have a deck project.  Your goal could be as low as about $1,000 depending on your pricing - an easy goal to meet.  You want more features or a better printer?  Set stretch goals that allow you to pay for these features, covering your costs while still making you a little cash as profit.  There's no reason why you couldn't make 100 decks a suitable target and it almost insures success because the goal is so low.

[Lukas]

Well then. I think I will give the ads a try as my campaign starts.
I am sure it's paying off.
Of course there is no way of knowing how many decks are wanted. With the wishlist, I just want to get an idea of how many there are.

Yeah, I guess 100 decks is kinda affordable. The only problem I have are the shipping costs. As far as I can see, the fulfillment service costs about 1$ - 2.5$ per delivery without the shipping itself. The shipping itself is pretty expensive. I think it was about 5$ per deck regarding to http://www.makeplayingcards.com/shipping.aspx.
That means, that the shipping costs raise with the amount of decks which also means, that two decks have a shipping charge of about 11$ - 12.5$.
Am I right with my calculation?
I just ordered small amounts of decks, so I have almost no information about the shipping costs for huge amounts.
In my calulations for the campaign, I simply calculated with 5$.

For sure I will set stretch goals. At least I want to mention the LPC quality as a stretch goal.

[Don Boyer]

Well then. I think I will give the ads a try as my campaign starts.
I am sure it's paying off.
Of course there is no way of knowing how many decks are wanted. With the wishlist, I just want to get an idea of how many there are.

Yeah, I guess 100 decks is kinda affordable. The only problem I have are the shipping costs. As far as I can see, the fulfillment service costs about 1$ - 2.5$ per delivery without the shipping itself. The shipping itself is pretty expensive. I think it was about 5$ per deck regarding to http://www.makeplayingcards.com/shipping.aspx.
That means, that the shipping costs raise with the amount of decks which also means, that two decks have a shipping charge of about 11$ - 12.5$.
Am I right with my calculation?
I just ordered small amounts of decks, so I have almost no information about the shipping costs for huge amounts.
In my calulations for the campaign, I simply calculated with 5$.

For sure I will set stretch goals. At least I want to mention the LPC quality as a stretch goal.

You missed my point.  Your wishlist won't give you an accurate picture.  It's like taking a telephone poll to ask registered voters who they plan to vote for in the next election, but you're calling home telephones between 3:00 and 4:00 PM, almost guaranteeing that most of the people you speak to will be children that are too young to vote.  This fails to account for all the voters not at home at that hour and, worse, doesn't even consider the voters who no longer possess landline phones, using cellphones for all their phone needs.  Your wishlist will maybe capture a fraction of the actual level of interest so the number will be too inaccurate to be useful in any way.

The number you have for shipping/handling costs sounds high.  Have you considered contacting other companies for order fulfillment?  I know that Gambler's Warehouse and Collectable Playing Cards both offer fulfillment services - see if they offer a better deal.  And a $5 estimate per deck when shipping ordinary First Class is way too high.  A pack of cards is approximately four ounces by itself, plus packaging makes that about eight ounces, tops - if it's more than that, you're doing something wrong!  A eight-ounce envelope is $2.52 by First Class, and a box weighing the same is $3.54.  The overall weight per deck will be lower when shipping more decks as the decks will be in essence sharing the packing material weight - two decks might be only 14 ounces, while three might only be 18 ounces, etc., all depending on how you pack them up.

[Lukas]

ok. I removed my wishlist.
The number I have comes from the shipping costs calculator of the MPC site. I think it was about 5$ per deck, for 3 decks it's 3$ per deck and so on. It actually has a "bulk discount". But this one is per delivery, which makes it pretty expensive I guess.
But I am not 100% sure if this calculation is right.
I asked at Gamblers Warehouse and currently I am waiting for a response. Lets see what they offer.

[Don Boyer]

ok. I removed my wishlist.
The number I have comes from the shipping costs calculator of the MPC site. I think it was about 5$ per deck, for 3 decks it's 3$ per deck and so on. It actually has a "bulk discount". But this one is per delivery, which makes it pretty expensive I guess.
But I am not 100% sure if this calculation is right.
I asked at Gamblers Warehouse and currently I am waiting for a response. Lets see what they offer.

The $5 per deck quote may have been for postage PLUS materials/handling - that would make the difference right there.  Some deck creators will subsidize the shipping cost by including part of it in the cost of the deck, while others might simply offer a single per-deck price that includes the shipping/handling costs, with an extra kick-in for overseas orders.

[Lukas]

Yes, as far as I know the handling and packaging is included within the shipping costs. The fulfillment service costs extra (of course).
To include a part of the shipping costs in the deck price was a thought of me too.
I do not want to include the whole shipping costs in the deck price, because the price of the deck would be pretty high. Sure, the price is the same actually, but I think high deck prices distract people. Even if there are no shipping costs at all.

[Don Boyer]

Yes, as far as I know the handling and packaging is included within the shipping costs. The fulfillment service costs extra (of course).
To include a part of the shipping costs in the deck price was a thought of me too.
I do not want to include the whole shipping costs in the deck price, because the price of the deck would be pretty high. Sure, the price is the same actually, but I think high deck prices distract people. Even if there are no shipping costs at all.

It's not a distraction if you claim up front that domestic shipping and handling is included on all decks.  It used to be the common practice that you had to include shipping and handling in deck prices because there was no separate method for tracking shipping costs.

"Handling" IS SUPPOSED TO BE the fulfillment center cost!  You pay them for postage, you pay them for packaging and you pay them for the humans that put the items in the packaging and slap the postage on it (the handling)!  Handling tends to cost extra for international shipments because of the necessity of printing pre-filled Customs forms and sticking them to the packages.

You should really nail down EXACTLY what costs you have, or you're doing little more than guessing what what things cost, which means you're likely doing it incorrectly.

[DoubleOOJ]

I really like the sketchy art style of your cards, especially the Joker, Jack, and Queen.

I definitely agree with making the court images bigger. Show off those lines. ~_^

And, listen to Don. He has great advice. ^_^

As someone currently running a Kickstarter project I can vouch for it taking a lot time to get decent estimates, and even more time to do the calculations.

Jamey Stegmaier has some great blog articles about using Kickstarter where you can find a ton of great information about manufacturing, shipping, international fulfillment, and common mistakes, etc. It is mainly focused on board games but the information still mostly applies.
http://stonemaiergames.com/e-newsletter/blog/

Good luck with your project!

[Lukas]

Thank you both!
I received the fulfillment service prices from gamblers warehouse. They are way better than the shipping costs from MPC.
Now I will calculate what it costs to ship all the decks to gamblers warehouse and then let them handle the fulfillment.

@Don Boyer: Now that I do have pretty much all the costs (shipping, printing, advertising) I will start to calculate all over again to get the exact costs I have. As exact as possible ^^

@DoubleOOJ: Thank you!
My redesigned deck should arrive next week I guess. As soon as I have the cards I will shoot a few more images.
Don really has great advise. Thank you Don!
Thank you for the link! I will definitely take a look.

[Don Boyer]

Thank you both!
I received the fulfillment service prices from gamblers warehouse. They are way better than the shipping costs from MPC.
Now I will calculate what it costs to ship all the decks to gamblers warehouse and then let them handle the fulfillment.

@Don Boyer: Now that I do have pretty much all the costs (shipping, printing, advertising) I will start to calculate all over again to get the exact costs I have. As exact as possible ^^

@DoubleOOJ: Thank you!
My redesigned deck should arrive next week I guess. As soon as I have the cards I will shoot a few more images.
Don really has great advise. Thank you Don!
Thank you for the link! I will definitely take a look.

I look forward to seeing it.