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[LAUNCHED] Limited set of 168 custom playing cards

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[LAUNCHED] Limited set of 168 custom playing cards
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2015, 07:12:52 AM »
 

cardlover

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« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 07:07:12 AM by cardlover »
During the last year I’ve working on my own deck. It's time to say thank you all very much for helpful information and advice! Thank you, PLAYING CARD FORUM that you are exist! This project started with your support!
Finally, our project on kickstarter
 

Re: "NOT NAMED YET" Playing Cards. Bicycle LIMITED USPCC Deck
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2015, 06:37:02 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hi, All! Firstly, thank you for each advice and opinion!
We are still here working hard on the deck design
We are wondering what you like, what do you expect from a good deck?
Any opinions are welcomed (e.g. stock / finish quality, important details of design, etc.)
We will bear in mind your opinions in design of our deck of cards.
Thank you in advance!

Who is "we?"  You're only permitted one user per username...

Don, as I am working on the project together with talented people, it would be indelicate to say "I am"  :)

Well, you weren't terribly clear on that, and I didn't think you were royalty, so...  :))
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« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2015, 07:21:12 AM »
 

cardlover

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« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 05:45:54 AM by cardlover »
During the last year I’ve working on my own deck. It's time to say thank you all very much for helpful information and advice! Thank you, PLAYING CARD FORUM that you are exist! This project started with your support!
Finally, our project on kickstarter
 

Re: "NOT NAMED YET" Playing Cards. Bicycle LIMITED USPCC Deck
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2015, 11:52:52 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Don, as I am working on the project together with talented people, it would be indelicate to say "I am"  :)

Well, you weren't terribly clear on that, and I didn't think you were royalty, so...  :))

I see)) I do not feel lonely on this project. For example, without your forum and advice each decision would be much more difficult. Although you added works))

I'm glad that you feel that we've been useful.  I'm also glad to see you asking questions and participating in other topics as well.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 11:53:17 AM by Don Boyer »
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2015, 03:24:32 PM »
 

cardlover

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« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 05:46:05 AM by cardlover »
During the last year I’ve working on my own deck. It's time to say thank you all very much for helpful information and advice! Thank you, PLAYING CARD FORUM that you are exist! This project started with your support!
Finally, our project on kickstarter
 

Re: Need Help To Make Right Decision!
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2015, 04:14:03 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hi!  :) We design a new deck of cards and got stuck with placement of pips. There are four variants for consideration:



Please, pay attention to placement of pips and help me to choose variant which would be more convenient for card games (e.g. poker, including hold'em, bridge etc.)
I'll appreciate references to really usable and universal decks.
Thank you in advance!

Take version one, REMOVE the small indices in the upper-left/lower-right corners and move the large indices into those corners.  Then you have something better.  None of the remaining images are practical at all.  That will also give you room under the index to place the president's signature.

I would further advise making the right index just a bit shorter - close to standard size or slightly shorter.  This way, the large index is the "primary" index positioned for holding by right-handed players, while the left index is not only suitable for lefties but makes for a nice "poker peek" index.  Poker peek indices have to be on the small side, to prevent flashing cards to opposing players.

I don't know what that thing is in the middle of the first image, but lose it.  It looks terrible and is superfluous.  It will be finer without it.
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Re: Need Help To Make Right Decision!
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2015, 05:57:10 PM »
 

Fess

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I think six sets of indices are a bit much. Whats the thing in the center of the first three versions and stamped on each side of version four? I don't understand the point of that but it's drawing my eye because of the lighter color or illusion of lighter color, but I think it's a lighter shade used, used inside it. That's not a good thing in my opinion.

Anyway back on track, you asked about which pip placement. I agree the first is the only one here that could be considered even with it's collection of indices all over it. The others are horribly ineffective.
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« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2015, 08:05:07 PM »
 

cardlover

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« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 05:46:16 AM by cardlover »
During the last year I’ve working on my own deck. It's time to say thank you all very much for helpful information and advice! Thank you, PLAYING CARD FORUM that you are exist! This project started with your support!
Finally, our project on kickstarter
 

Re: "NOT NAMED YET" Playing Cards. Bicycle LIMITED USPCC Deck
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2015, 01:15:36 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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A couple of things.  First, I only just noticed you've a) made a new topic for the same deck and b) posted it in the wrong board - Deck Reviews! is for decks that have ALREADY BEEN MADE, not ones people are still working on, and furthermore they go there when a CUSTOMER is reviewing them, not a CREATOR.

I've fixed all of the above.

Now, Cardlover, to you design...

You've modeled the multi-index design off of the Modiano Poker Peek, which is itself modeled after the USPC Bicycle Poker Peek.  USPC's design TANKED at the World Series of Poker, to the point that the players forced the venue to swap out the decks.  Too many players were confusing jumbo-index 6s and jumbo-index 9s for each other.

If you want that doodad in the design to look like a Treasury seal, then make it really look like a Treasury seal.  What you have now looks NOTHING like a Treasury seal.

Regarding what the professional bridge player told you - IGNORE IT.  Sure, it's great to have four indices for better visibility.  But professional bridge players general don't use a poker-sized deck because of the number of cards they have to hold at once at the start of the game - each player is holding a quarter of the deck, 13 cards.  It's why bridge decks are more narrow.

Another thing to bear in mind is that while some people will love the extra index, there are others who hate four-index decks with a passion.  Some might argue that it's bigotry against left-handed people (they're estimated to make up only 10% of the global population), some are so locked in their minds as to what a playing card should and shouldn't have that the four indices causes their mental engines to seize for lack of oil and some are concerned that when holding a hand of cards, the extra index might get accidentally flashed to an opposing player when they catch a glimpse of what might normally be an empty corner.  Boiled down to brass tacks, there are some players who love them, there are some players who hate them with a passion.  I suggested you make them smaller because of those who could complain about the accidental flash.  It keeps them functional for lefties, though smaller than a standard index, and can be used for a discreet peek at one's own hand at a game such as Texas Hold 'Em.

A pro poker player wouldn't use a deck like this in first place; not a hardcore, dyed-in-the-wool, casino-style player, anyway.  They use what nearly all casinos today use - standard index, standard faces, bridge-sized plastic decks.  The plastic tolerates wear better and doesn't crimp or nick as easily.  But a casual player might break this out, if he really liked US Presidents.

Make your design not based on what a poker player or a bridge player wants or the person with poor vision wants.  Base your design on what YOU want and what you believe the audience you're selling to wants.  Collectors are your primary audience, to be sure, but not your only audience - for example, US history buffs might find your deck intriguing, but that's not because of how well or poorly the deck works at the poker table.  They're more interested in gorgeous artwork of their favorite subjects and having as little as possible get in the way of that artwork.

Don't depend exclusively on the collector market to carry your deck to success - if you look at the highest-grossing decks out there, none made it on ordinary deck collectors alone.  They pulled in people that ordinarily wouldn't shell out ten or fifteen dollars for a pack of cards, but fell in love with some aspect of the project that made it easier for them to part with the money.  They could have been artists or art fans (Uusi decks have a good following with the art world), they could have been fans of the movie ("The Princess Bride" decks from Albino Dragon, "Star Wars" decks from Cartamundi), book ("The Name of the Wind" deck also from AB, the most successful deck project on KS to date) or TV show ("Firefly" decks, "Breaking Bad" decks, etc.).  They might love nostalgic design (the Hornets deck from now-defunct Circle City Cards is a fine example of this).  Reach out further, but don't forget your focus.
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« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2015, 01:59:00 PM »
 

cardlover

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« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 05:46:34 AM by cardlover »
During the last year I’ve working on my own deck. It's time to say thank you all very much for helpful information and advice! Thank you, PLAYING CARD FORUM that you are exist! This project started with your support!
Finally, our project on kickstarter
 

Re: "NOT NAMED YET" Playing Cards. Bicycle LIMITED USPCC Deck
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2015, 06:58:15 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I see... and jumbo-indexes 6s/9s seems far more clear in Modiano Poker Peek than USPC Bicycle or Copag Poker Peek

Most Poker-Peek decks have some kind of flaw to them when it comes to sixes and nines.  I've seen decks in the past that used a bar to indicate the bottom of a number and I've seen decks that will actually print SIX and NINE instead of 6 and 9.  But it's more of a poker thing, really - Poker Peek decks aren't common in any other game.


Thank you, Don. I'll come back with new variants of placement of pips based on your current and previous suggestions and my own ideas. As a designer I'm trying to think as a customer of the product which I design) Although it's possible that I'm trying to consider the needs of too broad audience

You can't please everyone - there's little point in trying.  The object is to find a core group and make something that this core group will find so appealing, they absolutely can't live without what you're making.  Then you have to insure they actually know it exists - or that it will exist, if they back it.

Quote

What do you think - are there any plastic cards brand suitable for cardistry e.g. Kem or Copag? 

Not that I've seen yet, no.  Plastic doesn't have the same handling characteristics as paper.  Firm plastic tends to be thicker than paper, thin plastic tends to be too flexible.  There may be such a deck out there, but I haven't found it yet.

Quote

Thank you for very valuable advice and references! I think largelyin the same way. I have quite a solid idea and try to make it viable (it is not about how the cards look and not about their theme)

Actually, it IS in part about the appearance and theme!  You find a design and a theme that your target audience wants.  I'm simply saying that the collectors' market, while far from devoid of buying power, is usually not enough on its own to make a deck go from a hit to a blockbuster.  And when I say "collectors' market," it's not like they all move together in a herd and buy the same decks to begin with - different deck styles appeal to different collectors.  I've even seen collectors who practically don't care about what's in the box - they're interested in the box itself (design, intricacy, etc.) or they're simply interested in having a complete set or in the practice of the collecting itself rather than what's being collected.  Some are even in it strictly as speculators - buying decks at low prices in hopes of selling later at a premium.  It's not exactly something I'd build my retirement portfolio on, however.
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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2015, 05:31:14 AM »
 

cardlover

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« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 05:46:45 AM by cardlover »
During the last year I’ve working on my own deck. It's time to say thank you all very much for helpful information and advice! Thank you, PLAYING CARD FORUM that you are exist! This project started with your support!
Finally, our project on kickstarter
 

Re: "NOT NAMED YET" Playing Cards. Bicycle LIMITED USPCC Deck
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2015, 06:45:11 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hi =) Designing of the faces was completed. It will be exceptionally convenient for any card games, suitable for magic tricks on stage and close-up and safe for poker playing. Now we are switched to design of the backs of the cards. The current progress will be shown here. Best regards!

Was there a particular reason why you opted for a one-way back design?  The overall design is fine, if a bit intricate, but the center logo makes every last one of them one-way images.  Collectors don't buy as many one-way backs and poker players avoid them like the plague (they can be used for cheating).
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« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2015, 07:15:11 AM »
 

cardlover

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« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 05:47:00 AM by cardlover »
During the last year I’ve working on my own deck. It's time to say thank you all very much for helpful information and advice! Thank you, PLAYING CARD FORUM that you are exist! This project started with your support!
Finally, our project on kickstarter
 

Re: "NOT NAMED YET" Playing Cards. Bicycle LIMITED USPCC Deck
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2015, 11:23:43 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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You'll have to forgive me for sounding harsh, but this entire ad-hoc, make-it-up-as-you-go method for design isn't going to endear you to backers when you launch your project.  No one expects a fully-finished, perfected design the first time out, but it seems like you're throwing designs on the wall to see what sticks, polling for public opinion each time.  Design by committee never produces greatness.

Find a design.  Have a vision.  STICK to that vision.  I'm not saying be deaf to what others say, but I am saying what you have now as a method doesn't instill confidence that you know what you're doing.  Need proof of what I'm talking about?  This is the fortieth post in this topic and you've only just started to touch on the back design - you've expended all this energy working on improving the faces.  Never mind tuck boxes - you might get there by post #100.  By post #200, you might be ready to launch - but by that time, no one will care anymore.  There's no unifying vision, nothing cohesive holding the design together, no solid vision.  "Do you like this?  No?  Which of these four do you like?  Oh, you like that, then."  That's not how good design works.

You put out four designs on Facebook, asking the world for opinions, and when I point out a flaw, you tell me it's a "placeholder?"  Your tone sounds more like that of someone desperately trying to convince me to do something I don't want to do by promising me whatever I want to hear.  "I swear, it'll be better!  I'll get it right!"
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<deleted>
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2015, 01:34:03 PM »
 

cardlover

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« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 05:47:12 AM by cardlover »
During the last year I’ve working on my own deck. It's time to say thank you all very much for helpful information and advice! Thank you, PLAYING CARD FORUM that you are exist! This project started with your support!
Finally, our project on kickstarter
 

Re: "NOT NAMED YET" Playing Cards. Bicycle LIMITED USPCC Deck
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2015, 12:05:43 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Should it instill confidence to anyone? I do not care

...and THAT'S what shows through in your project, without you even having to say the words.  It's what will push backers away.  That was my point all along.  It's the difference between a project with vision and a project that's stumbling along blind and asking for directions.  The closest thing to a vision this project's had so far is to present all the presidents - but you're doing it in a way that's strikingly similar to other projects that beat you to the punch.  The deck has looked like a design variant on currency from day one and while it has evolved, it hasn't strayed from that at all - meaning that it looks a lot like a Federal 52 knockoff.  You might not care, but others will, and they won't back this because of it.

What stops you from being more unique?  And not just unique for the sake of being unique (doing that is pointless and useless), but being unique in an attractive way, in a way that's eye-catching?  There's so many other ways you could present your basic concept that WON'T imitate what came before it.  What if you made the presidential images look not like currency, but like presidential portraits in gold frames, all done in full color?  Or what if you made them all appear as if made from stone, as if all the presidents' faces were on Mount Rushmore - and it would give you a pretty wild idea for a joker at the same time, presenting ALL of the presidents' faces on Mount Rushmore in landscape view!  Currency's been done - people will compare the two projects and most will find this one lacking in comparison.

This project's vision is not much better than a photocopier with a warped, distorted lens.  Put the faces of a Fed 52 deck and the backs of an Aristocrat Banknote deck on the copier glass, hit "print" and you end up with this. My suggestion is that you abandon this direction and do something ORIGINAL if you want people to care.  Remember those first forty posts I mentioned?  They weren't from forty people, or even twenty people - they were from five people including yourself - two of which only posted once.  I'm willing to bet that the first forty posts of a Fed 52 project page or an Uusi page or an Encarded page have far greater diversity - and they're presenting a polished, finished deck design, needing the barest amount of tweaking at best, while yours is still deep in the weeds on the design phase.  You don't even have a TITLE for this mess, and you haven't for two months now because you finally realized the previous title was a disaster.  How can you expect anyone to care when they can't even call your project by a name other than "that hot, wet mess that looks like a Jackson Robinson knockoff?"  The fact that "Bicycle" and "LIMITED" are still in the topic title while the deck doesn't even have a new name yet is very telling, as if pushing the deck to collectors to make money was the biggest concern driving this deck, not some grand artistic vision.

Think I'm being harsh?  Prove me wrong - make the deck into a big, honking six-figure success.  But if you're smart and you realize this isn't some personal attack against you (how could it be if I don't even know you?), you'll consider some of what I've said and make some real changes in this.  Presented as it is, I can almost guarantee it will fail, if for no other reason than, and I quote you on this, "Should it instill confidence to anyone? I do not care."  Kickstarter is millions of people begging for money and millions of other people willing to give them money - if the ones doing the begging can convince the ones doing the giving that their project is worth it.  So YES, IT SHOULD INSTILL CONFIDENCE IN EVERYONE!!! AND YOU SHOULD CARE!!!  If it doesn't and you don't, stop wasting your time and ours and go play video games or watch cat videos on YouTube.
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« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2015, 05:42:05 AM »
 

cardlover

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discussion was turned into a clownery
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 07:25:22 AM by cardlover »
During the last year I’ve working on my own deck. It's time to say thank you all very much for helpful information and advice! Thank you, PLAYING CARD FORUM that you are exist! This project started with your support!
Finally, our project on kickstarter
 

Re: <deleted>
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2015, 05:43:52 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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discussion was turned into a clownery

What a waste.  At least we know the strength of your commitment to the project - absolutely nil.  When the time comes to launch, people will remember how YOU turned this into a "clownery."  They can see your comments in our quotes - you couldn't edit those away.  So go take your toys and run home to mommy, little boy - we'll still be here.

(Of course he's not really a little boy - but I treat people by the way they choose to behave.  Act like a child, get treated like a child.)
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[LAUNCHED] Limited set of 168 custom playing cards
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2015, 06:49:46 AM »
 

cardlover

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« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 06:12:06 AM by cardlover »
During the last year I’ve working on my own deck. It's time to say thank you all very much for helpful information and advice! Thank you, PLAYING CARD FORUM that you are exist! This project started with your support!
Finally, our project on kickstarter
 

Re: [LAUNCHED] Limited set of 168 custom playing cards
« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2015, 11:23:21 AM »
 

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What did I mean "I don't care" in response to the false assumptions made by Don? I explained Don my position: I don't care of HIS speculations about my knowledge or  experience. I really don't care of HIS doubts whether my project will be launched on kickstarter. Is there a sense of care of such things?

"Do your duty, come what may"

But I do care of how to do my job and how to make the deck of cards better. And I do listen to other people's advice

I had no doubt because I have enough experience. And now you can take a sober view of my work

The problem is that conversation with Don went off the topic to false speculations. My poll was senselessly merged earlier with another topic and then was deleted. His further posts sounded disrespectful, as though he talked to the silly schoolchild

And he finds it possible to make references to this shameful fact. Such behaviour is unacceptable for the professional

I don't regret about any of my words because I'm a polite person. Words and actions of Don forced me to regret that I began a conversation with him. I decided to delete this topic, but I have no such level of access and I edited out my posts. I am very disappointed with such attitude

Best Regards and Merry Christmas!
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 11:34:58 AM by cardlover »
During the last year I’ve working on my own deck. It's time to say thank you all very much for helpful information and advice! Thank you, PLAYING CARD FORUM that you are exist! This project started with your support!
Finally, our project on kickstarter
 

Re: [LAUNCHED] Limited set of 168 custom playing cards
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2015, 12:17:01 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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What did I mean "I don't care" in response to the false assumptions made by Don? I explained Don my position: I don't care of HIS speculations about my knowledge or  experience. I really don't care of HIS doubts whether my project will be launched on kickstarter. Is there a sense of care of such things?

"Do your duty, come what may"

But I do care of how to do my job and how to make the deck of cards better. And I do listen to other people's advice

I had no doubt because I have enough experience. And now you can take a sober view of my work

The problem is that conversation with Don went off the topic to false speculations. My poll was senselessly merged earlier with another topic and then was deleted. His further posts sounded disrespectful, as though he talked to the silly schoolchild

And he finds it possible to make references to this shameful fact. Such behaviour is unacceptable for the professional

I don't regret about any of my words because I'm a polite person. Words and actions of Don forced me to regret that I began a conversation with him. I decided to delete this topic, but I have no such level of access and I edited out my posts. I am very disappointed with such attitude

Best Regards and Merry Christmas!

I've consulted professionally on a few of the more popular short-run deck releases and I've been on this board now for a little more than four years.  I gave you opinions and advice in an effort to help your project.  I'll grant that I can be a little on the rough side at times, but everything I stated was sound - I was trying to inspire you to create something better.  Your Kickstarter project for this deck set is more than half over and you've not even reached 25% of your goal - to me, there's no more sober view one could take of your work than that.

Have a merry Christmas and a happy New Year.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/