Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?

[Don Boyer]

I'm a guy who can appreciate originality in a person's work, whether it's in card design or anything else this world has to offer.  But I'm noticing a few not-so-great trends.

Some new decks are pushing so hard to be original, they're simply original for the sake of being original.  To make this more succinct, peanut butter and spam ice cream with sardine sprinkles and bat guano whipped cream is original - but would YOU want to eat it?

Originality is a great thing, yes.  But too much of anything stops being great, fast.  Pushed too far, it goes from being desirable into the 52-Pick-Up of train wrecks.

Everyone wants metallic ink on everything lately as well, or at least enough people to make me take notice.  A subtle use of the stuff can be gorgeous when done well, but slathering the stuff on doesn't do it for me.  Getting back to the ice cream metaphor, would more sardine sprinkles and a steamy-fresh rat turd on top make that nightmare of a dessert more palatable to you (or any living human being with taste buds and a sense of smell)?  Might as well just dunk the whole sheet in gold and call it a day.

And these limited editions?  It used to be the case that people made limited editions because quite frankly they had no choice - Kickstarter offers people one shot to make their dream deck and that's it - unless you plan the project to make more than just a deck, but a whole company.  A few deck companies have sprung out of Kickstarter, perhaps one or two of which don't have to keep going to Kickstarter for their funds anymore.

People keep pushing lower and lower and lower for their limited editions.  At one time, 5,000 was the Holy Grail of rarity - these days that's practically mass-market in the eyes of some collectors and designers. Then 2,500, now a thousand - what's next?  Go all the way to the extreme - there's an artist in the UK, forgive me for not remembering her name, but she makes HANDMADE decks in quantities of perhaps a few dozen, that's it.  Is that where the market is headed?

I have an idea for a deck design of my own, but I don't want it to be limited.  I want the entire f**kin' WORLD to have my deck in their hands, or at least a huge percentage of it, certainly more than all the collectors in the world combined.  I'd settle for two decks each in half of the homes in America - or even just half the homes in New York City!  I might make less per deck, but if I'm selling so many extra that I might as well have a license to print money, why the hell would I care?  What is so damned spectacular about having a deck that's so rare, only a few hundred people in a world of billions get to own one, and most will never see the light of day, never mind get opened and played with.

Piss on USPC and their shoddy workmanship all day long if you want, but Bicycle Rider Backs are out there in the BILLIONS.  If you dumped every pack of that deck design every made into a pile, you could probably smother Australia with it.  There's probably enough Bees and Aristocrats, not counting the custom work for casinos, to choke a mid-sized Pacific Island nation.

Another metaphor - if I was a movie actor who wanted to be a world-renown star, would I pick the role in the movie that's being made by a teeny movie studio (really more like a few guys in a basement) with a potential audience of a few dozen or maybe a few hundred, or would I pick the equally-good role in the movie that's being made by a major studio in Hollywood that's aiming for world-wide distribution to every freakin' screen on Earth as well as any orbiting in space stations, rocket capsules and shuttlecraft?  The first film might win me the award for "best role in a movie shot in the neighborhood and edited in the director's mom's basement", but the second might get me the whole ball of wax - awards, money, recognition, fame, etc. on a global scale.

Is it just me?  Am I just being cranky?

And I'm not even touching on all the UNoriginal decks out there, every zombie, Lovecraftian, pirate, steampunk, minimalist, faux-aged pile of paper refuse...

[Vadim Smolenskiy]

I think it's all trend related, Don. People see an awesome deck that used metallic inks, see that it got overly funded (in the case of Kickstarters) and want do the same thing. Eventually, everyone is doing it (like you mentioned) and it gets old. Then it goes away for a while and eventually someone makes another awesome deck that tastefully uses metallic inks and everything comes back full circle.

Same with Zombies, Pirates, Lumberjacks (yeah, I said it. Lumberjacks are definitely trendy) etc, etc.

[Fess]

I understand the points you're making. I think the underlying meaning is, you're worried for the industry. I also think you're being cranky. Those powers combined.

[Don Boyer]

I think it's all trend related, Don. People see an awesome deck that used metallic inks, see that it got overly funded (in the case of Kickstarters) and want do the same thing. Eventually, everyone is doing it (like you mentioned) and it gets old. Then it goes away for a while and eventually someone makes another awesome deck that tastefully uses metallic inks and everything comes back full circle.

Same with Zombies, Pirates, Lumberjacks (yeah, I said it. Lumberjacks are definitely trendy) etc, etc.

Actually, I think you're still running on the road less traveled, as far as lumberjack-themed decks are concerned!

The trend I'm most concerned with is the trend toward more carelessly-made crap by creators who think that all that's needed are some bells and whistles combined with an artificially-short number of decks in existence and they can make fat stacks of cash like the people and companies appearing on the list of top ten decks by income on Kickstarter.  "Throw some zombies on it, perhaps a steampunk sugar skull, slather it in gold and order only 500 copies, of which I'll only sell 400."  This is NOT a formula for big success, despite the existing trend.  It's like trying to get on the New York Times bestsellers' lists by printing a few hundred books at a boutique press.  I can't see custom card-making as an industry thriving by using such a formula.

I understand the points you're making. I think the underlying meaning is, you're worried for the industry. I also think you're being cranky. Those powers combined.

More concerned than worried, and more fed-up than cranky.  OK, maybe a little cranky.  I know playing cards in general will be around for centuries to come - there are no forms of gaming entertainment and play that are as versatile as a pack of playing cards.  Hundreds of games, if you run out just invent new ones - and it fits in your shirt pocket.  And that's before you consider magic or cardistry!

Custom decks, however...  This can be a bit more difficult to pin down.  But I certainly can't see the industry of custom decks "expanding" by manufacturing fewer units of each deck rather than more.  Ours is a niche hobby because the decks themselves are becoming more and more difficult to come by!

The deck that likely began the modern wave of custom design work, the Bicycle Black Tiger deck with red and white pips, is still in print today, largely unchanged since the first pack was made other than tweaks to the stock and coating, the tuck box and swapped extra cards from print run to print run, depending on what Ellusionist is trying to promote at a given point in time.  I think one could safely say that many thousands of this deck are in print - over a hundred thousand at the least, over the years.  But as collectors, many consider any deck made in quantities of greater than 5,000 as ridiculously common!  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Assume that 100,000 packs of Black Tigers exist - that means that the typical American (among a population of 400,000,000 Americans) has a 0.025% chance of owning just one pack, based solely on number of decks versus number of people and given a distribution of only one pack per person!  The reality being that many collectors will buy multiple packs, that chance drops significantly.

Using the same math but applying it to a "common" deck with a print run of 5,000 yields a result of a 0.00125% chance of the typical American owning a pack (again, the percentage is much smaller when you account for the fact that collectors frequently buy more than just one pack).  A "common" deck, and only 1 in 80,000 people have even a chance at owning a pack!

More importantly than my rough math and estimates, consider that this isn't even taking into account the world at large.  Going globally, assuming as even a distribution as possible, those numbers absolutely shrivel.  As of last year, the estimated world population was 7,125,000,000 people.  Not more than 1 in 71,250 people have a chance at owning a pack of Black Tigers, and not more than 1 in 1,425,000 people have a shot at getting a deck from any typical print run of 5,000.  Considering buying patterns and attrition due to destroyed decks, I've probably overestimated those odds of ownership by as much as ten times the actual chance, but there's no way I could have underestimated the chances, assuming my numbers are reasonably accurate.  But that's "common", according to some people frequenting this forum.

More decks in more hands means more people are interested, more decks get sold, more money gets made, and without having to charge a king's ransom for just one pack!  I still consider the idea of a pack of cards selling for $15 or more ludicrous, even with shipping by first class mail included.  My city is insanely overpriced and I can still get a pack of plain Bikes for under $5 a pack - aside from the time and trouble spent designing the cards, what makes them so special that they cost that much?  Most people can buy Bikes for $2 or $3 purchased individually, no bulk discounts for buying a brick at a time.  I understand profit as a motivating factor for making the cards, but taking in a bit less profit per deck while selling a LOT more decks means you can make them cheaper AND make a bigger profit on the project overall.

Yes, a custom deck costs more to make, especially when you go all crazy with the bells and whistles.  But are all the bells and whistles necessary - do they improve your project, your design, or do they simply attract people like birds looking at shiny objects?  Strip out the bells and whistles and a pack of cards made through USPC Custom can cost under $3 a pack - and probably even less still if you went with LPCC or EPCC.  I can make a thousand of them, sell them at $15 a pack, sure - fat profit, but really short supply.

Assuming a cost of $3 a pack, an average shipping cost of $2 per deck and a print run of only a thousand, that hypothetical deck would earn you a total of $12,000.  Take that same project, drop the price to $7 but make ten times as many decks - right there you've made $20,000 instead of $12,000 and in the process got more of your decks to more people.  Many customers that might buy just one or two at $15 a pack could go as high as a half-brick or more at only $7 a pack.

I can't possibly be the only person who sees the math here.  Bigger print runs and lower prices will get your art, your labor of love, into the hands of more people - people who have the potential to become fans of your work and repeat customers for your future projects, making your business GROW to the point that maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't even need Kickstarter anymore to hold your hand while you cross the street to profitability.

[Anthony]

I can't possibly be the only person who sees the math here.  Bigger print runs and lower prices will get your art, your labor of love, into the hands of more people - people who have the potential to become fans of your work and repeat customers for your future projects, making your business GROW to the point that maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't even need Kickstarter anymore to hold your hand while you cross the street to profitability.

Your not Don, I think you'll start to see a bit of a shift from some in the industry. There is a happy medium out there for both, Limited Editions are great if they are trully thought out and presented in a resonable fashion, every single project out there doesn't need and LE. This conversation has come up alot here and there and I think the companies and designers who start to see this, what seems like a simple dynamic, will be better for it in the long run.

[Justin O.]

As a relatively new collecter who collects mainly contemporary decks I like the bells and whistles, and I definitely want something fewer people have more than I want something lots of people have. Knowing I can get a deck anytime anywhere makesw me likely to never pick one up because I know that my money is better spent on decks that will only be availiable briefly while there is stock in hand. I don't think that excuses poor design, or cheap shortcuts like popular themes churned out to just make a profit, but I want foil, I want embossing and printing inside of the tuck, and I definitely want to have a deck with a number on it slash a slightly bigger number that makes me appreciate that deck more knowing I could have missed it and might not have gotten a second chance to get it. I like the exclusivity. But I'm not a deck designer, and I agree, I would want everyone's coffee table to have my deck of cards on it, I wouldn't want to be a nerdy niche name, I would want to be a household one.

I think anything can be overdone, but I don't want to see people stop doing it, and I love seeing when it is done well.
I think you are being cranky Don, but I also agree with your points, to a point.

[sprouts1115]

I live for looking for the guy who comes on the scene and breaks the rules and makes it work.  You can always break the rules, but it's hard to bend them and make it look good.  Usually, it's some schmuck who starts a Kickstarter who makes the same mistakes over and over again and we try to help him out before his Kickstarter expires.  Now that gets old.....

[Fess]

I was just typing up a big long reply on here and I realized I was typing a rant too. 

Haha, so not my style so I stopped that. These super limited print runs bother me too. When I really love a deck, I buy at least a brick of it. I don't really care if they're $7 or $10 or $15 a deck. That brick is going to be delicious and we'll feast on it at the poker table. Sans, one deck (sometimes, sometimes I can't stop haha) since I've embraced the collector in me not just the deck consumer. The reason low print runs bother me, is it's a pain in the ass to replace some of the things, and sometimes they limit how many I can have. Can you believe that? Oh it's true, sometimes they do. I'm the bad guy for wanting more than four? Print more instead! Seems like a pretty good solution to me. I'm a big fan of a limited print run being 5,000 decks myself, and even then some of them could use a few more thousands right out of the gate. Still, I can understand with costs all that, 2,500 print run being necessary for some decks. Seems like a pretty nice sweet spot too, not everyone can afford a larger run. 1,000 not so sweet, just sayin.

I'm probably the worst collector in the world, I have a hard time seeing decks in terms of money. I know what I spent, but I've already spent it. That cash is already used up. I don't intend on seeing dollars and cents springing forth from the cellophane when I pop the deck. The memories I have of using the decks are priceless though. That's what spurs me to find another copy of a certain deck that was consumed nine years ago. That's why I smile when I pick up a deck of STUD, or think of family no longer with us when I see a deck of Virginia Slims. Making new memories is why I pick up decks now. That and I love a well made deck. So much pleasure from them. I use my Gnostic rose gold deck to play solitaire or blackjack sometimes instead of working haha. I often use one way back decks this way.

I love playing cards, I love the limited ones, I love the unlimited ones. They're beautiful, magical, gorgeous, fun, pure pleasure to me. I can't be cranky about a well made deck. It's hard for me to be upset over a super limited deck that I don't have because I've never had it anyway. Also gives me something for me to hunt.

Nothing but venom for a poorly put together PoS some people pass off as bei... haha I'll stop right here.

But yea Don, I think all of us to some degree understand where you're coming from.

[Leif]

Don, it's not just you. I agree with everything you say.

But from a business standpoint:
Limited sells, because collectors feel that they might be left behind if they don't buy, when there's a limited supply. Example: iPhone.
Bells and whistles sells because the more extra perceived value you can add to an item, the more it sells, and the more you can charge. Example: iPhone
Series sells, because collectors tend to want a complete set.

Fever items at a higher price works like this:
When you sell something at a higher price you need to sell fewer items to recoup the initial investment.
By charging a premium you create a perceived sense of extra value.
By charging a premium only the ones who easily can afford to buy, buy it, those are often the least prone to return stuff. 

If you try to sell many decks cheap, you get much more competition, those standard bikes for example, and there's always someone willing to sacrifice some profit, and sell theirs even cheaper.

From a customer standpoint.
Awesome design and bells and whistles, at a cheap price, and no limited stuff, yes, please.




 

[Don Boyer]

Don, it's not just you. I agree with everything you say.

But from a business standpoint:
Limited sells, because collectors feel that they might be left behind if they don't buy, when there's a limited supply. Example: iPhone.
Bells and whistles sells because the more extra perceived value you can add to an item, the more it sells, and the more you can charge. Example: iPhone
Series sells, because collectors tend to want a complete set.

Fever items at a higher price works like this:
When you sell something at a higher price you need to sell fewer items to recoup the initial investment.
By charging a premium you create a perceived sense of extra value.
By charging a premium only the ones who easily can afford to buy, buy it, those are often the least prone to return stuff. 

If you try to sell many decks cheap, you get much more competition, those standard bikes for example, and there's always someone willing to sacrifice some profit, and sell theirs even cheaper.

From a customer standpoint.
Awesome design and bells and whistles, at a cheap price, and no limited stuff, yes, please.

As much as I enjoy using my iPhone (MOST of the time!), it's not a good example.  IPhones aren't in limited supply, at least not here - it's been a few years since they had total sellouts all over the place, especially on launch day.  But that doesn't really matter, as I get the general gist of what you're saying.

If you want to talk about limited supplies, look at the customer base.  There's only so many people that are willing to pay the kind of prices collectors pay for a brand new pack of cards - in the eyes of most people, it's just a stack of paper, barely more valuable than a newspaper.

Obviously, going the mass market Rider Backs route is a losing game - they're just barely this side of being commoditized.  But as a famous Buddhist once taught, why must we choose from extremes?  There's a sweet spot, a point where decks are looked at as premium merchandise, but are also less expensive and thus more desirable - more desirable than a pack of Rider Backs AND some uber-premium deck that goes for 20 or 25 bucks a pack and only a small number of people ever get the chance to own them.

The premium end stuff has a limited audience.  If there are companies capable of doing this, even without having to dip in the Kickstarter pool - and we all know which companies they are - then why aren't more people aiming for that sweet spot and turning a project here and a project there into an honest, ongoing business of their own.  I would love to see more people using Kickstarter merely as the launch pad it was meant to be, weaning themselves off of it and becoming businesspeople and employers rather than someone else's employee.

[Leif]

Don, it's not just you. I agree with everything you say.

But from a business standpoint:
Limited sells, because collectors feel that they might be left behind if they don't buy, when there's a limited supply. Example: iPhone.
Bells and whistles sells because the more extra perceived value you can add to an item, the more it sells, and the more you can charge. Example: iPhone
Series sells, because collectors tend to want a complete set.

Fever items at a higher price works like this:
When you sell something at a higher price you need to sell fewer items to recoup the initial investment.
By charging a premium you create a perceived sense of extra value.
By charging a premium only the ones who easily can afford to buy, buy it, those are often the least prone to return stuff. 

If you try to sell many decks cheap, you get much more competition, those standard bikes for example, and there's always someone willing to sacrifice some profit, and sell theirs even cheaper.

From a customer standpoint.
Awesome design and bells and whistles, at a cheap price, and no limited stuff, yes, please.

As much as I enjoy using my iPhone (MOST of the time!), it's not a good example.  IPhones aren't in limited supply, at least not here - it's been a few years since they had total sellouts all over the place, especially on launch day.  But that doesn't really matter, as I get the general gist of what you're saying.

If you want to talk about limited supplies, look at the customer base.  There's only so many people that are willing to pay the kind of prices collectors pay for a brand new pack of cards - in the eyes of most people, it's just a stack of paper, barely more valuable than a newspaper.

Obviously, going the mass market Rider Backs route is a losing game - they're just barely this side of being commoditized.  But as a famous Buddhist once taught, why must we choose from extremes?  There's a sweet spot, a point where decks are looked at as premium merchandise, but are also less expensive and thus more desirable - more desirable than a pack of Rider Backs AND some uber-premium deck that goes for 20 or 25 bucks a pack and only a small number of people ever get the chance to own them.

The premium end stuff has a limited audience.  If there are companies capable of doing this, even without having to dip in the Kickstarter pool - and we all know which companies they are - then why aren't more people aiming for that sweet spot and turning a project here and a project there into an honest, ongoing business of their own.  I would love to see more people using Kickstarter merely as the launch pad it was meant to be, weaning themselves off of it and becoming businesspeople and employers rather than someone else's employee.

Oops, well, iPhones used to be in short supply, at least here, and I still hear about people waiting in line several hour on release day. Great that you understood my meaning anyway.

The problem seems to be that designers today apparently thinks that their decks must have all the bells and whistles, a box made of unicorn skin, and be hand numbered by the Lord above and then some extra features on top of that, in order to sell. Or is it us collectors that are creating this circle by buying decks with extra everything?

Those companies you mention, they seem to pound out custom, and even semi-custom decks regularly, decks that seems to sell rather well. There is no reason why, as you say, someone could create a thriving business there. However, I can't keep from wondering, how big part of E's or T11's sales are decks? (Assuming those are the companies you meant.)

[sprouts1115]

@Don - Well, don't look to the casinos.  Those bastards want to convert to bridge cards.  Yea it saves 5% on paper, but ......

[Justin O.]

When you see Deck of Skeletons selling at $15 a deck through makeplayingcards.com with zero feautures and looking like it will succeed you will see designers that expect that their US/E/LPCC decks with any features whatsoever should be more valuable than that. Adversely because of the Fed 52s, Oracle and Pegan decks out there you will have more people expecting bells that whistle from customs decks because we are getting spoiled by amazing decks that have all of those features. I just picked up one of my decks of Oracles the other day and was reminded how nicely the Bee stock yields to my will. And then I looked over my KS backed projects and frowned that so few of them include it; projects that pulled in more than enough pledge money to include it.

[Anthony]

Limited does sell...........to the uneducated Leif, lol.

I mean no offense to anyone, but collectors that have been aroound will look passed the word limited, then the print run and focus on the deck. I'm guilty of loving my "Lmited Editions" but only the ones that deserve the moniker. I'm ok with a 1000 deck print run if the deck was really presented and thought out well, I'm even good with a 2500 deck run, hell, I'll take 10K if the desk was well thought out an designed...........but I guess that's what this discussion is really about.

I wouldn't mind seeing 1 in 10 decks offering an LE, the rest can be "really nice" cards available in abundance.......I'll even accept the marketing shout of "Never to be printed again"

[Don Boyer]

@Don - Well, don't look to the casinos.  Those bastards want to convert to bridge cards.  Yea it saves 5% on paper, but ......

I can always trust you to come up with something from left field having little to do with the discussion...    On top of that, your math is wrong - it saves 10% on card stock, a bit less on tuck boxes.

As much as people "demand" those bells and whistles, the foil, the embossing, the metallic inks, the custom stickers, the super-elastic-spastic-plastic coating, there's a lot more who'd be happy just seeing good design work, something that no amount of bells and whistles can improve.  Companies (as realized by Leif) such as E and T11 do this stuff every day.  Sure, they have added income from the magic, but they make a whole lot of decks.  There's far more people buying their cards than are buying their magic, 'cause not everyone into cards is into magic.  (I'm including cardistry in that statement, as well.)

Deck of Skeletons is my biggest concern.  This deck is very inexpensive to make.  It has a great design.  There's pretty much no bells or whistles - he's using a budget printer.  But because the market has "adjusted" to the $15 price (granted, it includes shipping, but still, it's $15), people are willing to pay for it.  Apparently not quite so many, though, since this deck still hasn't hit the rather low goal it's presented for itself.  This is a deck that's also cutting its potential audience short - if this was sold more cheaply, more people would buy it, the designer would make less per deck but he'd sell more decks and each deck would be cheaper to produce, resulting in more profit, and most critically, he'd broaden the potential number of buyers to the point that this hobby of ours would grow, really grow, and not in little trickles.  The deck gets into a hundred pairs of hands, it's nice; some will check out the next project, some won't, some more will look, but the progress will be slow.  But if the cheaper version of this came out and gets into a thousand pairs of hands, now this designer has the start of a serious fan base.

I think it's a very attractive deck.  I also think it's too expensive for me to add to my collection - yet another I add to that list.

This was never a cheap hobby to start with, but why must it become a rich man's hobby exclusively?  That's the direction things are taking right now.  If in a year or two you can't afford any of the new decks coming out except what's coming from Ellusionist, Blue Crown, etc., you now know why.

[Marcus]

I've been arguing for this for longer than I care to admit, honestly. I'm not really the average collector, though. I'd rather be able to pick up a brick (preferably for closer to $70-80 + shipping than $200 + shipping) or more so that I'm free to use them as I please. Owning just one or two decks of the same design (usually for around $15 + $10-15 shipping each) just ends up with me not using them and if I can't use them they're not worth it.

Of course there is a place for decks in smaller runs for different reasons. I'd just prefer not to see that as a standard, and not something done intentionally by each and every designer.

[variantventures]

Nothing's wrong.  We've just had a couple of technological innovations come around that have made it possible for people to produce decks that weren't even marginally possible just a few years ago.  Advances in printing, in crowd-funding, in digital design software, in global communication... Now anyone with an idea can make a deck.  Odds are most of them won't be any good.  But a few will be and as people work with printers they are pushing the boundaries of what can be done with playing cards.  Think of it as evolution in action and sit back and enjoy the ride and try to pick the gems from the dross as they pass by.

[sprouts1115]

@Don - Yea $15 per deck is probably becoming the norm.  Hell, we might even see it become $25 per deck when we get older.  I remember buying a candy bar for .25 with a cent tax when I was younger. The skeleton deck is a good deck.  It looks vintage. If you like it get it.  You're not planning on killing yourself are you?  You need to stick around.  Yea, you're probably right with the 10% savings.  In the long run, I'm planning on making a game better than "BlackJack" using Poker sized cards and the casinos have to buy my cards.  Imagine that.  Has anyone ever done that?  I would have to make them through the USPCC and they would have to be Q1 in quality control, but thats another headache.   

[Don Boyer]

Nothing's wrong.  We've just had a couple of technological innovations come around that have made it possible for people to produce decks that weren't even marginally possible just a few years ago.  Advances in printing, in crowd-funding, in digital design software, in global communication... Now anyone with an idea can make a deck.  Odds are most of them won't be any good.  But a few will be and as people work with printers they are pushing the boundaries of what can be done with playing cards.  Think of it as evolution in action and sit back and enjoy the ride and try to pick the gems from the dross as they pass by.

I think you've missed the idea I was trying to get across.

Yes, it's possible - more easily now than at any time before - for nearly anyone to make a deck.  And yes, there will be crap decks and good decks, and it's largely subjective as to which fall into which category.

I'm specifically talking about how the costs of decks are rising and the size of print runs are falling, making the hobby more and more rarefied with each new release.  If taken to the logical extreme, there will be a release of a one-deck print run made of solid gold paper with laser-etched embossed cards, debossed boxes with limited edition "1 of 1" stickers, hermetically sealed cellophane impervious to the elements and depths up to 100 meters, etc. - and the few hundred of us still bothering to collect will be fighting tooth and nail over it, while the thousands who used to collect but gave up will shrug our shoulders.  Artificial rarity and higher costs versus a deck "for the masses" that people can afford as well as admire and will use and enjoy, confident in the knowledge that there's more where that came from.

@Don - Yea $15 per deck is probably becoming the norm.  Hell, we might even see it become $25 per deck when we get older.  I remember buying a candy bar for .25 with a cent tax when I was younger. The skeleton deck is a good deck.  It looks vintage. If you like it get it.  You're not planning on killing yourself are you?  You need to stick around.  Yea, you're probably right with the 10% savings.  In the long run, I'm planning on making a game better than "BlackJack" using Poker sized cards and the casinos have to buy my cards.  Imagine that.  Has anyone ever done that?  I would have to make them through the USPCC and they would have to be Q1 in quality control, but thats another headache.   

And people say I make tangents...  At least it takes me more than a single paragraph to go in different directions!

Your first two sentences make about the most sense - but they're still off the mark.  Yes, prices go up, but there are legitimate reasons, like the buying power of our cash getting weaker over time, and there's "man-made" reasons, like someone making a super-short, super-expensive print run.  We can set aside your twenty-five cent candy bars and focus on the real point here, the man-made reasons.  I hesitate to call the reasons "artificial" because they are indeed very real.

And no casino ever has to buy your cards.  Never ever.

[variantventures]

Nothing's wrong.  We've just had a couple of technological innovations come around that have made it possible for people to produce decks that weren't even marginally possible just a few years ago.  Advances in printing, in crowd-funding, in digital design software, in global communication... Now anyone with an idea can make a deck.  Odds are most of them won't be any good.  But a few will be and as people work with printers they are pushing the boundaries of what can be done with playing cards.  Think of it as evolution in action and sit back and enjoy the ride and try to pick the gems from the dross as they pass by.

I think you've missed the idea I was trying to get across.

Yes, it's possible - more easily now than at any time before - for nearly anyone to make a deck.  And yes, there will be crap decks and good decks, and it's largely subjective as to which fall into which category.

I'm specifically talking about how the costs of decks are rising and the size of print runs are falling, making the hobby more and more rarefied with each new release.  If taken to the logical extreme, there will be a release of a one-deck print run made of solid gold paper with laser-etched embossed cards, debossed boxes with limited edition "1 of 1" stickers, hermetically sealed cellophane impervious to the elements and depths up to 100 meters, etc. - and the few hundred of us still bothering to collect will be fighting tooth and nail over it, while the thousands who used to collect but gave up will shrug our shoulders.  Artificial rarity and higher costs versus a deck "for the masses" that people can afford as well as admire and will use and enjoy, confident in the knowledge that there's more where that came from.

I see what you mean.  It may be possible that economics play a role in this.  While the technology has made it possible for people to do small print runs, the economics of large print runs are pretty much unchanged.  Selling a small batch of cards can be a lot easier than raising the funding for a large run of cards and then trying to find distributors.  And when you're working at those mass-production levels the profit per deck is measured in cents not dollars.

That said, people do seem to be going out of their way to create artificial scarcity.  Maybe it's because they're afraid of being stuck with unsold cards at the higher volumes or perhaps they're only interested in doing 'art' rather than 'business'.  You mentioned the woman making handmade decks.  I know of three people who make hand-made batches of playing cards.  They're much in demand amongst a very small group of collectors who can afford the prices they charge (which are very low when you consider the work that goes into those decks).  Those people are interested in making and owning pieces of art, not playing cards.

[Don Boyer]

I see what you mean.  It may be possible that economics play a role in this.  While the technology has made it possible for people to do small print runs, the economics of large print runs are pretty much unchanged.  Selling a small batch of cards can be a lot easier than raising the funding for a large run of cards and then trying to find distributors.  And when you're working at those mass-production levels the profit per deck is measured in cents not dollars.

That said, people do seem to be going out of their way to create artificial scarcity.  Maybe it's because they're afraid of being stuck with unsold cards at the higher volumes or perhaps they're only interested in doing 'art' rather than 'business'.  You mentioned the woman making handmade decks.  I know of three people who make hand-made batches of playing cards.  They're much in demand amongst a very small group of collectors who can afford the prices they charge (which are very low when you consider the work that goes into those decks).  Those people are interested in making and owning pieces of art, not playing cards.

Of course economics play a role.  And yes, there's extra decks to be sold in most cases after the Kickstarter is over, unless the run was very short and funding just stopped - I've seen that happen a few times, though in most cases the creator simply releases an "unlimited" version of the deck, typically in a different color.

I'm not saying a deck of cards has to be sold in the quantities of a Bicycle Rider Back and at the same price points.  There is a middle ground, a sweet spot, where there's plenty of cards to go around at a decent price.  If there wasn't, the Bicycle Masters decks wouldn't exist, nor would the three basic colors of the Crown deck, the assorted non-rare colors of the NOC, Artifice, the Monarchs, etc. - without shipping or tax, these decks all sell for well under ten dollars a pack, and in most cases at discount for larger orders, often as little as buying three decks at once.

It's not cheap to order a deck in huge quantities, but it is manageable to order a print run of what would now be considered a "huge" amount - 5,000-deck runs used to be the norm because USPC was the only quality printer around and that was their minimum.  They weren't twice as expensive all the way around because of the lower per-deck costs.  Imagine finding a price point low enough that people are happy to buy these cards in bulk, or at least in greater amounts than they'd normally be able to afford if the deck was at least twice as rare and more than double the cost.  A company making a go of it could order 10,000, 15,000 or even 20,000 decks at a time if they sold well enough.

If Ellusionist and many others can do it, why can't more people?  They don't employ a zillion people - most of the companies we'd call "the majors" employ perhaps a dozen or less people, at least for their retail operations.  In other words, they're all manageable small businesses - one of the greatest sources of new employment in this country over the past decade.

[Collector]

Do people still believe in Limited Editions?

[Don Boyer]

Do people still believe in Limited Editions?

I'm afraid they do.

[Justin O.]

I like limited edition, I don't think that is a negative thing. Limited edition shouldnt be a derogatory term.

[Don Boyer]

I like limited edition, I don't think that is a negative thing. Limited edition shouldnt be a derogatory term.

When it's as heavily used and abused as it is today, it might as well be a four-letter word.

[variantventures]

I see what you mean.  It may be possible that economics play a role in this.  While the technology has made it possible for people to do small print runs, the economics of large print runs are pretty much unchanged.  Selling a small batch of cards can be a lot easier than raising the funding for a large run of cards and then trying to find distributors.  And when you're working at those mass-production levels the profit per deck is measured in cents not dollars.

That said, people do seem to be going out of their way to create artificial scarcity.  Maybe it's because they're afraid of being stuck with unsold cards at the higher volumes or perhaps they're only interested in doing 'art' rather than 'business'.  You mentioned the woman making handmade decks.  I know of three people who make hand-made batches of playing cards.  They're much in demand amongst a very small group of collectors who can afford the prices they charge (which are very low when you consider the work that goes into those decks).  Those people are interested in making and owning pieces of art, not playing cards.

Of course economics play a role.  And yes, there's extra decks to be sold in most cases after the Kickstarter is over, unless the run was very short and funding just stopped - I've seen that happen a few times, though in most cases the creator simply releases an "unlimited" version of the deck, typically in a different color.

I'm not saying a deck of cards has to be sold in the quantities of a Bicycle Rider Back and at the same price points.  There is a middle ground, a sweet spot, where there's plenty of cards to go around at a decent price.  If there wasn't, the Bicycle Masters decks wouldn't exist, nor would the three basic colors of the Crown deck, the assorted non-rare colors of the NOC, Artifice, the Monarchs, etc. - without shipping or tax, these decks all sell for well under ten dollars a pack, and in most cases at discount for larger orders, often as little as buying three decks at once.

It's not cheap to order a deck in huge quantities, but it is manageable to order a print run of what would now be considered a "huge" amount - 5,000-deck runs used to be the norm because USPC was the only quality printer around and that was their minimum.  They weren't twice as expensive all the way around because of the lower per-deck costs.  Imagine finding a price point low enough that people are happy to buy these cards in bulk, or at least in greater amounts than they'd normally be able to afford if the deck was at least twice as rare and more than double the cost.  A company making a go of it could order 10,000, 15,000 or even 20,000 decks at a time if they sold well enough.

If Ellusionist and many others can do it, why can't more people?  They don't employ a zillion people - most of the companies we'd call "the majors" employ perhaps a dozen or less people, at least for their retail operations.  In other words, they're all manageable small businesses - one of the greatest sources of new employment in this country over the past decade.

What's the sweet spot?  Would the Masters decks exist if the Rider decks didn't exist?  Is it possible for a big company to do things a smaller company can't?  Sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative but I don't have answers to these questions.

I think you're correct that there is a niche for some smaller companies out there, but I also think most of the designers are doing this part time.  I did some back of the napkin calculations for my micro-business and determined that I could do it full-time with myself and two full time employees (preferably three) but in any event I would have to be a full time administrator (and part time sales guy) to do it.  Which meant I would have even less time to do design work than I have right now.  In effect, making my hobby my business would kill my hobby.  And I'd be taking a big pay cut even if I was wildly successful.

Maybe the niche is for a company that has the marketing skills and connections to take a design from the hobby stage to the middle ground.  I know I'd take a smaller profit per deck if a company took a lot of the marketing and fulfillment work out of my hands AND could sell to a larger audience.  My designs, of course, are a bad example here, but assume we're talking about someone with a contemporary design.  I haven't looked at any numbers to see if anyone can make a profit doing this, though.

Sorry.  Wish I had some answers when all I've got are more questions.

[Don Boyer]

What's the sweet spot?  Would the Masters decks exist if the Rider decks didn't exist?  Is it possible for a big company to do things a smaller company can't?  Sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative but I don't have answers to these questions.

I think you're correct that there is a niche for some smaller companies out there, but I also think most of the designers are doing this part time.  I did some back of the napkin calculations for my micro-business and determined that I could do it full-time with myself and two full time employees (preferably three) but in any event I would have to be a full time administrator (and part time sales guy) to do it.  Which meant I would have even less time to do design work than I have right now.  In effect, making my hobby my business would kill my hobby.  And I'd be taking a big pay cut even if I was wildly successful.

Maybe the niche is for a company that has the marketing skills and connections to take a design from the hobby stage to the middle ground.  I know I'd take a smaller profit per deck if a company took a lot of the marketing and fulfillment work out of my hands AND could sell to a larger audience.  My designs, of course, are a bad example here, but assume we're talking about someone with a contemporary design.  I haven't looked at any numbers to see if anyone can make a profit doing this, though.

Sorry.  Wish I had some answers when all I've got are more questions.

Would the Masters decks exist without the existence of the Rider Backs?  Of course they would - they'd simply use the same back design as whatever the predominant market design was.  They could just as easily have been made with Hoyle Shellbacks or Tally Ho Fan Backs or even Bee Diamond backs.  The choice of the Rider Back was simple - it's the most mass-produced deck in America and there are probably more magic tricks, gaffed cards and gaffed decks in that design than any other design in the world.  The point of it being made in the first place was to make an improved, more durable version of that most popular design, whichever design it happened to be - in this "timeline", it was the Rider Back.  The question has nothing to do with the situation we're talking about.

There are other decks I named that have been in production for some years now and continue to be produced on an ongoing basis.  They're not as massively popular as the Bicycle Rider Back deck, but companies are making them at reasonable prices and bulk quantities - probably print runs of at least 20K each.

I suppose the biggest issue about creating such decks is warehousing.  A typical one-and-done designer won't have ample space to warehouse unsold decks and time to spend marketing them to retailers and wholesalers as well as to the general public (or at least the card collector community).  Even if you had the money to make the deck, it costs more money to store it, and while it remains stored it COSTS you money in the process.  Any product that lies around in storage long enough may even be sold below cost just to get rid of it and either reduce your storage requirements or allow you to stock new, fresh products.

When I worked in retail about two lifetimes ago, the company I worked for eliminated all stockrooms for their stores, including the flagship store.  They "stored" all the product on the showroom floor, since products in a stock room earn nothing and cost the rent of the square footage.  If a customer asked, "Do you have a size (whatever) in back?", the answer is "No, we have no stock room - what you see here is all we have."  But two lifetimes ago was also the pre-GUI days of the Internet, back when only the government, military and universities had wide access to it.  Companies exist today that have no showroom floor and are thriving businesses.  Storage space costs a lot less than a retail store, unless you're talking about some bare-bones place like Home Depot or Costco - which are in essence just giant stockrooms open to the public.

To rein this all back in, there has to be a sweet spot where you haven't printed too many decks that it costs a fortune to store them before they're all sold, but also not so few that the per-deck cost to you is high and you have to pass that on to the customer.  Ellusionist and Theory11 and the others didn't just sprout out of the ground fully-grown - they had to be built one product at a time.  They're also not the huge companies people seem to think they are - each one employs in the ballpark of a dozen people each, plus or minus a few.  That's not much bigger than the micro-company you just described to me.  Sure, at first it would be your full-time job, but ownership of a growing company has rewards as well as risks.  Grow just enough and you can start delegating some of the heavy lifting while you get to do a bit more of the fun stuff like making deck ideas become reality.  It's a matter of whether you're willing to commit to that idea of creating a company instead of just a sideline.

Jackson Robinson appears to be moving in just that direction, and not strictly on the sale of his own products.  He created a Kickstarter project for a 20,000-run deck sold at $6 a pack, but unfortunately there's been so much more talk about the limited-edition 2,000-run deck he's giving away with it that it has overshadowed the entire project - with a week left he's less than 40% of the way to his goal.  I was really hoping it would succeed, but honestly, I think he would have done better just taking pre-orders for the $6 basic edition and using KS just for the limited edition.  He of all the people making decks on KS right now has the greatest potential to become the next full-time deck company.

[Collector]

I like limited edition, I don't think that is a negative thing. Limited edition shouldnt be a derogatory term.

"Limited" is one of the three turtles for any collector world... only when that word really means something. It does mean nothing for collecting of modern playing cards. Why? Don will explain you better

[Anthony]

I like limited edition, I don't think that is a negative thing. Limited edition shouldnt be a derogatory term.

"Limited" is one of the three turtles for any collector world... only when that word really means something. It does mean nothing for collecting of modern playing cards. Why? Don will explain you better

Collector, the problem with the word "Limited" has always been the definition and assumed definition..............poor word didn't do anything wrong, lol

[Don Boyer]

I like limited edition, I don't think that is a negative thing. Limited edition shouldnt be a derogatory term.

"Limited" is one of the three turtles for any collector world... only when that word really means something. It does mean nothing for collecting of modern playing cards. Why? Don will explain you better

Collector, the problem with the word "Limited" has always been the definition and assumed definition..............poor word didn't do anything wrong, lol

I think what he's trying to get across is that once practically everything is "limited", the word effectively starts losing the power it once had.  "Limited" suddenly becomes commonplace.  There may only be 5,000 or 2,500 or 1,000 decks in THIS design, but there's five, ten, twenty, a HUNDRED more designs that share this characteristic, stripping away that which made it so special.  Reducing the size of the print run is an attempt to end-run around this fact, but it's only a matter of time before others are doing exactly the same thing, again practically sucking the meaning out of the word like an open airlock sucking out the air out of a spacecraft.  In card collecting, it's like an empty husk it's lost so much of its meaning and power.

Limited isn't derogatory - it's effectively been rendered meaningless instead, which I suppose is an even worse fate than being derogatory.

[Collector]

I like limited edition, I don't think that is a negative thing. Limited edition shouldnt be a derogatory term.

"Limited" is one of the three turtles for any collector world... only when that word really means something. It does mean nothing for collecting of modern playing cards. Why? Don will explain you better

Collector, the problem with the word "Limited" has always been the definition and assumed definition..............poor word didn't do anything wrong, lol

...Limited isn't derogatory - it's effectively been rendered meaningless instead, which I suppose is an even worse fate than being derogatory.

+1
I don't have anything against words. Their meaning is more important.

Let's turn to the classics. Not Uusi but Numismatics.
 
Show me "re-coinage" (non-existent word but you will understand) of commemorative coins from the United States Mint. Can it add one dot to the design of the minted coins and mint them again as a "new edition"? Can it make a new packaging for minted coins and justify a new issue of them in that way? Can it sell the design to someone who will mint them as a new run of American dollars? The United States Mint isn't represented by some Bob who orally promises "People, 2500 coins, no more, I swear on my honour, honestly, honestly, honestly... at least this month".

I hope you understand what I am talking about. But all producers of playing cards consciously try to get the effect of "the U.S. Mint's limited run of coins" by their Limited editions. So, the only guarantee of limited run for playing cards is a word of some person. But any person is a human and quite often has weak will.

My summary:
Pay more attention to decks' design and the content of your wallet instead of "Limited Edition" label. Do you still want real limited editions of playing cards? The world of vintage playing cards welcomes you. And memorize the magic (or even magick) word “chromolithography” in this case.

[Anthony]

Pay more attention to decks' design and the content of your wallet instead of "Limited Edition" label

Exactly

[Don Boyer]

+1
I don't have anything against words. Their meaning is more important.

Let's turn to the classics. Not Uusi but Numismatics.
 
Show me "re-coinage" (non-existent word but you will understand) of commemorative coins from the United States Mint. Can it add one dot to the design of the minted coins and mint them again as a "new edition"? Can it make a new packaging for minted coins and justify a new issue of them in that way? Can it sell the design to someone who will mint them as a new run of American dollars? The United States Mint isn't represented by some Bob who orally promises "People, 2500 coins, no more, I swear on my honour, honestly, honestly, honestly... at least this month".

I hope you understand what I am talking about. But all producers of playing cards consciously try to get the effect of "the U.S. Mint's limited run of coins" by their Limited editions. So, the only guarantee of limited run for playing cards is a word of some person. But any person is a human and quite often has weak will.

My summary:
Pay more attention to decks' design and the content of your wallet instead of "Limited Edition" label. Do you still want real limited editions of playing cards? The world of vintage playing cards welcomes you. And memorize the magic (or even magick) word “chromolithography” in this case.

I'm not sure this is an apt comparison in this case.  There's been practically no cases of Kickstarter or even "big-name" decks reprinting what was once a limited edition.  I will say, however, that there's PLENTY of cases of people (and "big names") who make a new box, drop the same cards in it and call it "new".  There are also cases of new limited edition decks being released in the same design but with a new color - LTD., Monarchs and Artifice come to mind immediately.

I think there will always be collectors who are eager and willing to snap up every box variant, color change, etc. - I knew of one who tried tracking different print runs, using the slightest changes as a cue.  But for the rest of us who aren't obsessive-compulsive about their collections, we have to learn to tell the difference between something really worth owning and something that one can pass on.  The line in the sand will be personal to each individual, but there should be a line there, a point at which we decide, "Yes, I'll buy these but NOT those, because I'm not forced to have a complete collection as they define it and prefer to buy decks I enjoy.  I do not have to be a completist, I do not have to (and can't afford to) buy every single new deck that comes out."

Limited editions feed into that compulsion - they practically amplify it.  That's fine for wealthy compulsives, but I'm an ordinary guy who happens to get a kick out of some of the cool deck designs out there and I'm NOT filthy rich, so I buy what I like and let someone else deal with the rest.

[variantventures]

Limited editions feed into that compulsion - they practically amplify it.  That's fine for wealthy compulsives, but I'm an ordinary guy who happens to get a kick out of some of the cool deck designs out there and I'm NOT filthy rich, so I buy what I like and let someone else deal with the rest.

I think the second market is far larger than the first, but it's harder to reach them and harder to get money out of them in the same volumes.

[Anthony]

+1
I don't have anything against words. Their meaning is more important.

Let's turn to the classics. Not Uusi but Numismatics.
 
Show me "re-coinage" (non-existent word but you will understand) of commemorative coins from the United States Mint. Can it add one dot to the design of the minted coins and mint them again as a "new edition"? Can it make a new packaging for minted coins and justify a new issue of them in that way? Can it sell the design to someone who will mint them as a new run of American dollars? The United States Mint isn't represented by some Bob who orally promises "People, 2500 coins, no more, I swear on my honour, honestly, honestly, honestly... at least this month".

I hope you understand what I am talking about. But all producers of playing cards consciously try to get the effect of "the U.S. Mint's limited run of coins" by their Limited editions. So, the only guarantee of limited run for playing cards is a word of some person. But any person is a human and quite often has weak will.

My summary:
Pay more attention to decks' design and the content of your wallet instead of "Limited Edition" label. Do you still want real limited editions of playing cards? The world of vintage playing cards welcomes you. And memorize the magic (or even magick) word “chromolithography” in this case.

I'm not sure this is an apt comparison in this case.  There's been practically no cases of Kickstarter or even "big-name" decks reprinting what was once a limited edition.  I will say, however, that there's PLENTY of cases of people (and "big names") who make a new box, drop the same cards in it and call it "new".  There are also cases of new limited edition decks being released in the same design but with a new color - LTD., Monarchs and Artifice come to mind immediately.

I think there will always be collectors who are eager and willing to snap up every box variant, color change, etc. - I knew of one who tried tracking different print runs, using the slightest changes as a cue.  But for the rest of us who aren't obsessive-compulsive about their collections, we have to learn to tell the difference between something really worth owning and something that one can pass on.  The line in the sand will be personal to each individual, but there should be a line there, a point at which we decide, "Yes, I'll buy these but NOT those, because I'm not forced to have a complete collection as they define it and prefer to buy decks I enjoy.  I do not have to be a completist, I do not have to (and can't afford to) buy every single new deck that comes out."

Limited editions feed into that compulsion - they practically amplify it.  That's fine for wealthy compulsives, but I'm an ordinary guy who happens to get a kick out of some of the cool deck designs out there and I'm NOT filthy rich, so I buy what I like and let someone else deal with the rest.

Excelent points Don, and I mean that, because when we were developing Aquila that was a big part of the discussion. We decided we wanted to make two decks, but wanted to make sure that each deck was "Unique" on it's own, so outside of the name, they are two unique decks. I understand it's simpler, but I'm not a big fan of Tuck Swaps, especially "Simple" ones where its just a color variant. Yes, I'm guilty of jumping on some of the "Blinged" out tucks out there, I think some look amazing and you can tell that at least some effort was put into them, unlike just shifting the "Hue" in Photo Shop.

Limited Editions are part of collecting, I just hope that if they're here to stay, some consideration is made in making them somehting special and not just a base variation.

[Don Boyer]

Excelent points Don, and I mean that, because when we were developing Aquila that was a big part of the discussion. We decided we wanted to make two decks, but wanted to make sure that each deck was "Unique" on it's own, so outside of the name, they are two unique decks. I understand it's simpler, but I'm not a big fan of Tuck Swaps, especially "Simple" ones where its just a color variant. Yes, I'm guilty of jumping on some of the "Blinged" out tucks out there, I think some look amazing and you can tell that at least some effort was put into them, unlike just shifting the "Hue" in Photo Shop.

Limited Editions are part of collecting, I just hope that if they're here to stay, some consideration is made in making them somehting special and not just a base variation.

New colors by themselves aren't a bad thing.  Without them, the "poker pair" wouldn't exist.  Some people prefer one color over another, so that's fine.  As long as they aren't ridiculously limited editions, more expensive even before they reach the secondary market, nearly impossible to obtain, yada yada yada - that's the point where I start to zone out.

As far as limited editions being special - that Pandora's box has already been opened, and it's too late to close it.  It's in the nature of Kickstarter to make limited editions because most people think on a smaller scale and make a project to create a deck, not to create a company that makes decks.  Producers need to find something OTHER than the concept of a limited edition to catch my eye.  Frankly, I like that companies like Ellusionist and the rest have "common" decks that have a designer's flair to them but aren't rare, impossible to find, expensive, out of print, etc.  It's nice to know that if my supply of Arcanes or Masters wear out, I can go buy more, no sweat, at least until the company goes out of business (hopefully not any time soon).  I know this will never be the case with all decks - the economics simply wouldn't support it - but I'd consider it a breath of fresh air in a stuffy, overheated room to have "common" decks out there more often.

[Anthony]

I think "Common" decks are going to be left to the "Companies" and Kickstarter, is what it is. I mean Uusi in my opinion is a good example, they are a "Company" and they decided to bring their vision to the playing card world in their six deck series. That's done and it's time for them to move on, they didn't want to be a "Playing Card Company" and Kickstarter, in my opinion, isn't really built for that "Standard" deck when it comes to playing cards, it is as you like to phrase it, a "Boutique" for the Custom Card designers. I agree with your point that I can get a "Standard" deck without breaking the bank from E or T11 and for the most part they'll be there for a good while, but.......like you said, they are a "Company" they don't want to produce a deck that "Cost" them more than $2, and they can do that because of the huge following, audience and deep pockets, not to mention other revenue streams within the company.

And more times than not, regardless of if we like it or not, "Those" KS backers seem to be looking for that exact thing, something shinny and limited, regardless of if its a contrived scarcity or not. 

To each his own, the problem I think is that a lot of people are starting to make the two, one and the same................and they're not.

[Don Boyer]

I think "Common" decks are going to be left to the "Companies" and Kickstarter, is what it is. I mean Uusi in my opinion is a good example, they are a "Company" and they decided to bring their vision to the playing card world in their six deck series. That's done and it's time for them to move on, they didn't want to be a "Playing Card Company" and Kickstarter, in my opinion, isn't really built for that "Standard" deck when it comes to playing cards, it is as you like to phrase it, a "Boutique" for the Custom Card designers. I agree with your point that I can get a "Standard" deck without breaking the bank from E or T11 and for the most part they'll be there for a good while, but.......like you said, they are a "Company" they don't want to produce a deck that "Cost" them more than $2, and they can do that because of the huge following, audience and deep pockets, not to mention other revenue streams within the company.

And more times than not, regardless of if we like it or not, "Those" KS backers seem to be looking for that exact thing, something shinny and limited, regardless of if its a contrived scarcity or not. 

To each his own, the problem I think is that a lot of people are starting to make the two, one and the same................and they're not.

Uusi was a company long before they showed up on Kickstarter, so yeah, their focus is very different.

I used to think the idea of a boutique card company would be cool, but at least here and now, I'm not so sure.

It's still pretty clear to me and a lot of other collectors, I believe, that "limited edition" by itself isn't enough, and that producers are engaging in a bells-and-whistles arms race with each other, trying to see who can make the deck that has the most of them.  Smaller print run, metallic foil, metallic ink, embossing, debossing, serial-numbered custom seals (I remember when people wanted decks WITHOUT deck seals), chromatic foil, custom pips, artwork inside the box...where does it end?

Maybe I should release "The Emperor's New Deck."  The fanciest tuck box money can buy, with projected holograms, LED lights and paper imported from Olympus itself - and no cards inside.  There are many collectors who might well be interested - it's not like they open the box in the first place, right?  The batteries for the lights will make up the difference in weight!

[Anthony]

Maybe I should release "The Emperor's New Deck."  The fanciest tuck box money can buy, with projected holograms, LED lights and paper imported from Olympus itself - and no cards inside.  There are many collectors who might well be interested - it's not like they open the box in the first place, right?  The batteries for the lights will make up the difference in weight!

LOL, oddly enough Don, I think this would sell   

[Justin O.]

Isn't this exactly what JR was trying to do with his mat recent project? Create a deck that wasnt limited, that didn't rely on its upgraded features to sell? His goal got buried under the outcry for the limited Pearl deck. Even though it didn't have any premium features, solely because it was limited. People would have paid $20 to add one to their pledge.

[Don Boyer]

Isn't this exactly what JR was trying to do with his mat recent project? Create a deck that wasnt limited, that didn't rely on its upgraded features to sell? His goal got buried under the outcry for the limited Pearl deck. Even though it didn't have any premium features, solely because it was limited. People would have paid $20 to add one to their pledge.

Isn't WHAT exactly what Jackson Robinson was trying to do?  He certainly wasn't making the Emperor's New Deck and you didn't quote anyone, so we have no reference to what you're talking about.

If it's printing in bulk for cheap, yes, that's what, among other things, we've been talking about.  And we also covered the fact that the entire project got overshadowed by the presence of a rare version of the deck.  I understand the reasoning of what he was trying to do - reward his most loyal customers for buying in larger amounts - but it also flies right in the face of his other stated goal, that of leveling the playing field and offering the same deal for the big spender as for the little spender; $6 a deck no matter how many you buy.  Sure, the Pearl Edition was also $6, but it came with a prerequisite of buying 11 Slates to get one (later changed to buying two Pearls when you get ten Slates).  The mixed message hampered his promotion efforts.  If he had simply not made a Pearl Edition or offered it as a direct purchase item with no prerequisites, the campaign would have become a bigger success.

I still think it would have been better still on his website, since he's got the kind of following to pull something like that off.  He could have taken enough pre-orders to pay for the entire print run and sold off the remainder as profit.  He did make some kind of crowdfunding thing but so far only one deck has go through the process, am I right?

[Anthony]

The problem is too many make something into something it's not, Jackson tried to give a little something back for those who made large purchases and while I understand your "Mixed Message" comment Don, people didn't even take the time to read about the Pearl deck.

They've become so conditioned that they just got there undies in a twist because of the non existent limited edition. I'm starting to feel that you could have had a rock signed by Jackson in place of the Pearl and had the same reaction. I know what Jackson was trying to accomplish and I'm really surprised and disappointed in the reaction and outcome.........just my opinion as always.

[Don Boyer]

The problem is too many make something into something it's not, Jackson tried to give a little something back for those who made large purchases and while I understand your "Mixed Message" comment Don, people didn't even take the time to read about the Pearl deck.

They've become so conditioned that they just got there undies in a twist because of the non existent limited edition. I'm starting to feel that you could have had a rock signed by Jackson in place of the Pearl and had the same reaction. I know what Jackson was trying to accomplish and I'm really surprised and disappointed in the reaction and outcome.........just my opinion as always.

I dunno, bro.  A lot of the guys talking about it here on the deck's topic were all about the Pearls and why they had to buy so many Slates to get them.  They weren't so concerned about Slates being so "common" as they were about the difficulties in getting Pearls.  I'd wager some would have even bought Pearls outright for nearly the same price it would have cost if they bought the whole brick and got the deal - it's wasn't just a price issue but a volume issue - "What would I do with all those Slate decks?"

[Anthony]

People had the option of just buying a few Slate decks, but since they built up the furvor over the Pearl deck into something it wasn't they all fixated on why they had to buy a brick to get 2 Pearls....2 Pearls which were not Limited Edition, or anything outside of a "Thank you" for spending $72.........Basicly a color swap. This is one of those converstaions that will just go around in a circle. So at this point, in my opinion, there really isn't anything to discuss, people made up their own minds as to what this project was about, people made up their own minds what the Pearl deck was or wasn't and that's pretty much it.

Being an armchair quarterback is always easy, and I'm not saying one side is right or wrong, but I do know that this campaign turned into something that it was not, no if ands or butts.

[Justin O.]

People had the option of just buying a few Slate decks, but since they built up the furvor over the Pearl deck into something it wasn't they all fixated on why they had to buy a brick to get 2 Pearls....2 Pearls which were not Limited Edition, or anything outside of a "Thank you" for spending $72.........

I beg to differ. The Pearl decks were a limited edition deck. There wasn't any idication they would be sold after the project, they were only going to be available at the highest tiers of the project and in small quantities without the option to get them directly through adding on.
And I think Don is right, people would have bought them at an exporbitant price because of that, I reckon you could have sold just one on ebay after the fact and made back most of your pledge for the entire brick, still had 10 slates and kept one of the Pearls for your collection. People know there is percieved value there and they want to own a peice of that.

[Anthony]

I reckon you could have sold just one on ebay after the fact and made back most of your pledge for the entire brick, still had 10 slates and kept one of the Pearls for your collection.

Well based on what I keep reading, this advice wouldn't work because you still have all those decks that you don't need "What am I going to do with 10 Slate decks?" I'm pretty sure I read that a lot, but I think your right. As I mentioned earlier, this conversation will just go around and around.

That being said, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this and that's perfectly fine. 

[Don Boyer]

Being an armchair quarterback is always easy, and I'm not saying one side is right or wrong, but I do know that this campaign turned into something that it was not, no if ands or butts.

Agreed.

People know there is percieved value there and they want to own a peice of that.

That right there is a major part of the problem.  Perceived value doesn't necessarily mean actual value.  Your perceptions could be entirely different than someone else's - I guarantee you that if you tried selling this $72 brick to the typical CostCo or Sam's Club customer, they'd perceive a much lower value since they can buy a brick of Bikes for $10-$15 depending on what part of the country they're in.  Sure, they're prettier and nicer, but maybe not $57-$62 nicer...

This perceived value is why a deck that once sold for fifty cents now commands prices in the ballpark of $300-$400 or more.  It's not even a pure rarity issue - they're vintage, but no one knows just how rare they really are.  They perceive scarcity solely based on their own inability to get a pack whenever they want.  If someone who would know told you the print run was 100,000, would you be rushing so fast to buy a Jerry's Nugget deck at those prices?  But we're unlikely to ever know, since the deck was made 44 years ago, there's probably no one still working there today who was there when the deck was made and record-keeping on print runs becomes spottier the older the deck is.  To be fair, most companies selling manufactured products wouldn't hang onto their sales records from over four decades ago, but it would be interesting to see what a piece of news like that, if it were true, would do to the Jerry's Nugget price.

[Anthony]

Your spot on with the perceived value statement Don, and I'll add that when that happens with a deck that hasn't even been printed yet, you tend to fall into that "Speculator" category. I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, but when a given deck comes out everyone seems to fall into one category, collector, professional, or speculator. And depending on which you fall into, whether you want to admit it or not  , will change your opinion of how the "Numbers" and "Availability" play out.

On a side note, opinions are great, we all have them, and while we may not agree all the time, it is refreshing that a conversation like this can be had without it getting ugly....kudos to the members of the PCF.

K, back on topic.............

[cbkimble]

Personally "Limited Edition" has become $$$$ in many eyes. There are several people, including companies, that buy all they can get there hands on for resell purposes. The resell market is kinda faltering, IMO, at the moment due to the dozens of designs coming out. People either aren't able or aren't willing pay to the high prices for the moment. This will probably change around mid-February to March when everyone is getting tax returns. I'm willing to bet there will be a surge on decks again.

Artists are trying to make better and better decks, ex. Lotrek's Gold Venexiana. This serves as example of both limited and design. These were a limited run of only 212 decks(200 released) and made with actual Gold foil. These decks cost $100 each and are worth it, IMO not because they're limited but because of how beautiful they are. I was really surprised when they didn't resell for $200-300.

[Don Boyer]

On a side note, opinions are great, we all have them, and while we may not agree all the time, it is refreshing that a conversation like this can be had without it getting ugly....kudos to the members of the PCF.

K, back on topic.............

It's the kind of environment I try to foster here.  I'm glad to hear that it's appreciated.  I may be a bit of a big mouth, but I'm self-aware enough to realize that not everything I say should be inscribed in gold on fine parchment!  I'm human, I make mistakes, and hopefully I learn from them as well as apologizing for them.  In the process, I encourage the exchange of differing ideas.  Without such "discourse", this board would become old and stale in no time flat, too homogenous and boring to be worth the time to read, never mind post.  People CAN disagree without it becoming a flame war and with a great degree of civility and respect.

I, too, give kudos to the members of this forum, for making it a truly open, welcoming environment.  Without you, PCF is nothing.

[Rose]

Yes, originality is great, in the way the playing card world is right now there is a lot out there. 95% of the current KS look terrible, but the 5% that are good, are great. This over saturated place I believe has forced greater decks.
If you look at KS from 2 years ago the successful ones would now be considered average. Therefore the great designers NEED to be better. Win/win for collectors. Much more difficult however for designers.

Disagree. Shiny is good. (Done tastefully).

Agree, I do NOT understand limited editions.
As a designer I would want as many people seeing my decks AND opening them, appreciating them, and using them.
As a collector every time I see a post saying limited editions only 500, Starting at 12am EST, blah, blah, blah I never even click on the link. I know I probably cannot afford to buy a deck that I would never allow myself to open, for fear I am destroying something so precious.

Agree. The zombie, steampunk, skulls, etc are so overdone.

[RandCo]

After reading this topic, I believe Don’s comment on ‘Perceived’ versus ‘Actual’ value is the most insightful. I think the ‘Perceived Value’ of a ‘Limited Edition’ comes from sources other than playing cards, mainly the art world and the trading card world.

In the art world a limited edition is valuable. When artists make prints of their work it is almost always in a limited edition (retail posters excepted). This makes sense because the prints are usually done using serigraphy, etching techniques, or stone lithography. The printing method and the paper is expensive. The editions are usually somewhere between 50 and 250 and are always signed and numbered.

In the sports trading card and collectibles world a limited edition has value also. For example in an Upper Deck NFL 2010 card series there would be no limit, other than the market, to how many cards could be printed. But within the overall amount of cards there would be limited edition cards which would be randomly placed within the boxes or packets. These were special cards that were signed by the athlete or had game-used material. Depending on the athlete, some of these special limited edition cards can be worth hundreds of dollars. There is very rarely more than 100 limited edition cards for any given athlete in a series.

There is also the matter of rarity which adds value. Very old decks of playing cards are valuable the same way that old trading cards are valuable, because they are made of paper they rarely survive over 50 years or so. A limited edition implies a certain amount of rarity, but this is a very different type of rarity compared to antique rarity. This is why old comic books are so valuable even though there were thousands printed.

The main value of a work of art or a trading card is the fame of the artist or the athlete, the rarity is secondary.

In the custom playing card world, the limited editions are 1,000, 2,500 or even 5,000. Compared to art prints and limited edition trading cards, this is not very limited. Most Kickstarter custom decks are printed in these amounts whether they are ‘Limited Edition’ or not. When Jackson Robinson, who sells hundreds of thousands of his decks, makes a limited edition of 1,000, that means something. For the majority of custom card makers ‘Limited Edition’ doesn’t mean much.

When the successful established designers like Theory 11, Ellusionist, etc. make a deck with metallic foil and embossing on the tuck, which makes it more valuable than a normally printed deck, use ‘Limited Edition’ it has some meaning. But I think the value of these special premium decks is from how good they look, not how limited they are.

As a budding card designer I think putting ‘Limited Edition’ on a deck looks cool, but Don is right, it is almost meaningless. In the custom playing card market the perceived value of ‘Limited Edition’ is a far cry from real value.

[Don Boyer]

After reading this topic, I believe Don’s comment on ‘Perceived’ versus ‘Actual’ value is the most insightful. I think the ‘Perceived Value’ of a ‘Limited Edition’ comes from sources other than playing cards, mainly the art world and the trading card world.

In the art world a limited edition is valuable. When artists make prints of their work it is almost always in a limited edition (retail posters excepted). This makes sense because the prints are usually done using serigraphy, etching techniques, or stone lithography. The printing method and the paper is expensive. The editions are usually somewhere between 50 and 250 and are always signed and numbered.

In the sports trading card and collectibles world a limited edition has value also. For example in an Upper Deck NFL 2010 card series there would be no limit, other than the market, to how many cards could be printed. But within the overall amount of cards there would be limited edition cards which would be randomly placed within the boxes or packets. These were special cards that were signed by the athlete or had game-used material. Depending on the athlete, some of these special limited edition cards can be worth hundreds of dollars. There is very rarely more than 100 limited edition cards for any given athlete in a series.

There is also the matter of rarity which adds value. Very old decks of playing cards are valuable the same way that old trading cards are valuable, because they are made of paper they rarely survive over 50 years or so. A limited edition implies a certain amount of rarity, but this is a very different type of rarity compared to antique rarity. This is why old comic books are so valuable even though there were thousands printed.

The main value of a work of art or a trading card is the fame of the artist or the athlete, the rarity is secondary.

In the custom playing card world, the limited editions are 1,000, 2,500 or even 5,000. Compared to art prints and limited edition trading cards, this is not very limited. Most Kickstarter custom decks are printed in these amounts whether they are ‘Limited Edition’ or not. When Jackson Robinson, who sells hundreds of thousands of his decks, makes a limited edition of 1,000, that means something. For the majority of custom card makers ‘Limited Edition’ doesn’t mean much.

When the successful established designers like Theory 11, Ellusionist, etc. make a deck with metallic foil and embossing on the tuck, which makes it more valuable than a normally printed deck, use ‘Limited Edition’ it has some meaning. But I think the value of these special premium decks is from how good they look, not how limited they are.

As a budding card designer I think putting ‘Limited Edition’ on a deck looks cool, but Don is right, it is almost meaningless. In the custom playing card market the perceived value of ‘Limited Edition’ is a far cry from real value.

Even in the worlds of sports memorabilia and comic books, there's really just one thing that determines value.  It has nothing to do with the fame of the player or artist, the rarity of the collectible, etc.  The sole determining factor is "What is someone willing to pay for this object?"  You mentioned limited edition trading cards with pieces of game-used material, typically a piece of a jersey, a slice of wood from a bat, etc.  Yes, they're rare and yes, they're associated with the famous people who used them.

But remember there was a huge bottoming-out of the market for baseball memorabilia which started with the most recent players' strike and it took years for the market to recover - many would argue it still hasn't fully recovered.  At that point, very few people were willing to pay the top-dollar prices some articles once commanded.  Even now, with the economy being pretty soft still for everyone except the one-percenters, who seem to be rolling in cash, luxury items like sports cards of all kinds of varieties are either selling for a fraction of what they once did or they've been taken off the market by sellers hoping to wait out the economic climate in order to make the kinds of profit they would have before the market collapse.

So there could be 10,000 of something, or 2,500 of it or even 100.  If you can't find someone willing to pay a given dollar amount, it's NOT WORTH THAT AMOUNT.  I don't care how rare it is, or who made it, or what materials were used.  A clothing retailer in 1985 could have spent hundreds of dollars getting a shipment of Sergio Valente jeans into his store - if they were left forgotten in the stock room, he'd be lucky to get tens of dollars for them today, even with them being pretty rare in this market.  Heck, I make "rare pre-fossilized coprolites" every day in highly limited editions, but there's absolutely no one that's going to bang on my door offering to buy any, no matter how rare.

[Fess]

- Post comes from the Ancient CPC Bike branded deck, thing can be found Here -

CPC retail sells a lot of custom decks. They have a great reputation of customer service too. They're doing a great job in that, what they do buy and sell decks to the public. I wish I could say the same about their creation of custom decks, it's almost as if they know absolutely nothing about playing cards with some of these designs they're throwing up on kickstarter lately. I mean, pop up their created list and it reads like a whats what of what not to do when implementing design of playing cards. Some of the ideas have been outstanding, it's the execution that's seriously lacking.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's me who knows absolutely nothing about playing cards and CPC has it's finger on the pulse of what really works. I don't think the KS numbers reflect that, but hey like I said. Maybe I'm wrong and this is exactly whats missing from the card industry. If it's not, please for the love of all things in this world quality! Please take the crayon set away and lock it in a booby trapped treasure chest, stick it in a concrete tomb filled with cat shit, seal it up, then cover said tomb with broken glass, and bury it deep deep in the bowels of the earth somewhere where they do not fraq.

Don you brought up an interesting thing in the thread for Anicent whatever crap deck CPC is trying to kickstart. (Sorry sum up version I don't know what the decks name is and don't care)

USPC has allowed the Bicycle brand to become so diluted and polluted with all the utter garbage they've permitted people to put out in its name, it's been rendered worthless.  Who cares about yet-another craptacular Bicycle deck from some guy I've never heard of before and will probably never hear about again - unless he gets a job at CPC, naturally...  CPC is making Bill Merz's Bicycle decks look good, and to me, that's an incredible feat previously thought impossible.

USPC is facilitating this trash.  Why the hell would I want to buy USPC decks again?  Over 125 years in the business and they have yet to master proper registration between faces, backs and the cutting die, despite getting a state-of-the-art facility only five years ago!  Their new motto might as well be "Good enough for government work!"  Bicycle has become the "government cheese" of the playing card industry!

I think if USPCC implemented some from of quality check in the design of custom decks to wear the bike badge, there wouldn't be anything other than rider backs coming out of USPCC. Maybe that's good, maybe that's bad. I don't think it would help anything at all actually. I think it's the custom decks that wear the bike badge that drive things forward. USPCC's designs lately, well they suck. So them saying yay or nay to a deck based upon whatever artistic impression they get by a deck is a very bad idea. Remember, they thought 808 Perspective was a delightful deck worthy of the club brand.

Even a vote system online where a bunch of non-card buyers can vote is a very bad idea. There is no accounting for taste. It's something entirely subjective and that by it's nature  scatters things all over there place. Believe it or not  there are some people, maybe four, who think that latest CPC kickstarter deck, whatever the hell it's called, is the greatest thing since sliced cheese and it's exactly what they've been searching for their entire lives. This deck will complete them. As they say, there is one born every minute.

This kind of pig vomit that's been pouring out of CPC this year is not going to kill the industry in my opinion. While it's not ever going to enhance the industry or the hobby, I think it's a great resource for new designers on what NOT TO DO. These decks are very unlikely to ever sell out and years from now if CPC survives, they likely will, will be a reminder to them of what not to do.

I just wish it would end. I think they've shown everyone what not to do by now.

[Don Boyer]

I, too, wish it would end - but it won't.

I think I'm starting to see something in USPC's logic regarding the mishandling of their Bicycle brand.  Think about it: Bicycle Rider Backs are printed in the millions each year.  (I'm actually guessing, because I could find no sales figures for USPC in a quick search, but it's a fairly safe assumption, what with 400 million people in the US and the fact that they sell in other countries as well, though in much smaller amounts.)  The typical Bicycle-branded custom deck these days is printed in the very low thousands - and some want to print even smaller amounts.  A deck printed in the millions annually will probably be seen by most of the nation's population at some point in their lives while a deck printed just once in a run that's a fraction of the size will be seen, statistically speaking, by almost no one.  2,500 decks of a particular design, if only sold in the US, means there's one deck for every 160,000 people.  So while they are indeed throwing dirt on the Bicycle name by using few to no criteria at all for a deck's inclusion, they don't care because it's just a tiny spot near the back and no one will notice it...

If CPC was printing these, ahem, "decks" in quantities much larger, say a million-deck run, I wonder if USPC or Jarden would say anything about it, or just let them produce the deck that sinks the brand?  I'm inclined to think they'd just take the money and run, worrying about the name brand only after the damage was done.