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Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?

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Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« on: September 29, 2014, 02:13:51 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I'm a guy who can appreciate originality in a person's work, whether it's in card design or anything else this world has to offer.  But I'm noticing a few not-so-great trends.

Some new decks are pushing so hard to be original, they're simply original for the sake of being original.  To make this more succinct, peanut butter and spam ice cream with sardine sprinkles and bat guano whipped cream is original - but would YOU want to eat it?

Originality is a great thing, yes.  But too much of anything stops being great, fast.  Pushed too far, it goes from being desirable into the 52-Pick-Up of train wrecks.

Everyone wants metallic ink on everything lately as well, or at least enough people to make me take notice.  A subtle use of the stuff can be gorgeous when done well, but slathering the stuff on doesn't do it for me.  Getting back to the ice cream metaphor, would more sardine sprinkles and a steamy-fresh rat turd on top make that nightmare of a dessert more palatable to you (or any living human being with taste buds and a sense of smell)?  Might as well just dunk the whole sheet in gold and call it a day.

And these limited editions?  It used to be the case that people made limited editions because quite frankly they had no choice - Kickstarter offers people one shot to make their dream deck and that's it - unless you plan the project to make more than just a deck, but a whole company.  A few deck companies have sprung out of Kickstarter, perhaps one or two of which don't have to keep going to Kickstarter for their funds anymore.

People keep pushing lower and lower and lower for their limited editions.  At one time, 5,000 was the Holy Grail of rarity - these days that's practically mass-market in the eyes of some collectors and designers. Then 2,500, now a thousand - what's next?  Go all the way to the extreme - there's an artist in the UK, forgive me for not remembering her name, but she makes HANDMADE decks in quantities of perhaps a few dozen, that's it.  Is that where the market is headed?

I have an idea for a deck design of my own, but I don't want it to be limited.  I want the entire f**kin' WORLD to have my deck in their hands, or at least a huge percentage of it, certainly more than all the collectors in the world combined.  I'd settle for two decks each in half of the homes in America - or even just half the homes in New York City!  I might make less per deck, but if I'm selling so many extra that I might as well have a license to print money, why the hell would I care?  What is so damned spectacular about having a deck that's so rare, only a few hundred people in a world of billions get to own one, and most will never see the light of day, never mind get opened and played with.

Piss on USPC and their shoddy workmanship all day long if you want, but Bicycle Rider Backs are out there in the BILLIONS.  If you dumped every pack of that deck design every made into a pile, you could probably smother Australia with it.  There's probably enough Bees and Aristocrats, not counting the custom work for casinos, to choke a mid-sized Pacific Island nation.

Another metaphor - if I was a movie actor who wanted to be a world-renown star, would I pick the role in the movie that's being made by a teeny movie studio (really more like a few guys in a basement) with a potential audience of a few dozen or maybe a few hundred, or would I pick the equally-good role in the movie that's being made by a major studio in Hollywood that's aiming for world-wide distribution to every freakin' screen on Earth as well as any orbiting in space stations, rocket capsules and shuttlecraft?  The first film might win me the award for "best role in a movie shot in the neighborhood and edited in the director's mom's basement", but the second might get me the whole ball of wax - awards, money, recognition, fame, etc. on a global scale.

Is it just me?  Am I just being cranky?

And I'm not even touching on all the UNoriginal decks out there, every zombie, Lovecraftian, pirate, steampunk, minimalist, faux-aged pile of paper refuse...
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2014, 03:12:46 PM »
 

Vadim Smolenskiy

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I think it's all trend related, Don. People see an awesome deck that used metallic inks, see that it got overly funded (in the case of Kickstarters) and want do the same thing. Eventually, everyone is doing it (like you mentioned) and it gets old. Then it goes away for a while and eventually someone makes another awesome deck that tastefully uses metallic inks and everything comes back full circle.

Same with Zombies, Pirates, Lumberjacks (yeah, I said it. Lumberjacks are definitely trendy) etc, etc.
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2014, 05:12:49 PM »
 

Fess

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I understand the points you're making. I think the underlying meaning is, you're worried for the industry. I also think you're being cranky. :) Those powers combined. :P
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2014, 05:47:45 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I think it's all trend related, Don. People see an awesome deck that used metallic inks, see that it got overly funded (in the case of Kickstarters) and want do the same thing. Eventually, everyone is doing it (like you mentioned) and it gets old. Then it goes away for a while and eventually someone makes another awesome deck that tastefully uses metallic inks and everything comes back full circle.

Same with Zombies, Pirates, Lumberjacks (yeah, I said it. Lumberjacks are definitely trendy) etc, etc.

Actually, I think you're still running on the road less traveled, as far as lumberjack-themed decks are concerned!

The trend I'm most concerned with is the trend toward more carelessly-made crap by creators who think that all that's needed are some bells and whistles combined with an artificially-short number of decks in existence and they can make fat stacks of cash like the people and companies appearing on the list of top ten decks by income on Kickstarter.  "Throw some zombies on it, perhaps a steampunk sugar skull, slather it in gold and order only 500 copies, of which I'll only sell 400."  This is NOT a formula for big success, despite the existing trend.  It's like trying to get on the New York Times bestsellers' lists by printing a few hundred books at a boutique press.  I can't see custom card-making as an industry thriving by using such a formula.

I understand the points you're making. I think the underlying meaning is, you're worried for the industry. I also think you're being cranky. :) Those powers combined. :P

More concerned than worried, and more fed-up than cranky.  OK, maybe a little cranky.  I know playing cards in general will be around for centuries to come - there are no forms of gaming entertainment and play that are as versatile as a pack of playing cards.  Hundreds of games, if you run out just invent new ones - and it fits in your shirt pocket.  And that's before you consider magic or cardistry!

Custom decks, however...  This can be a bit more difficult to pin down.  But I certainly can't see the industry of custom decks "expanding" by manufacturing fewer units of each deck rather than more.  Ours is a niche hobby because the decks themselves are becoming more and more difficult to come by!

The deck that likely began the modern wave of custom design work, the Bicycle Black Tiger deck with red and white pips, is still in print today, largely unchanged since the first pack was made other than tweaks to the stock and coating, the tuck box and swapped extra cards from print run to print run, depending on what Ellusionist is trying to promote at a given point in time.  I think one could safely say that many thousands of this deck are in print - over a hundred thousand at the least, over the years.  But as collectors, many consider any deck made in quantities of greater than 5,000 as ridiculously common!  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Assume that 100,000 packs of Black Tigers exist - that means that the typical American (among a population of 400,000,000 Americans) has a 0.025% chance of owning just one pack, based solely on number of decks versus number of people and given a distribution of only one pack per person!  The reality being that many collectors will buy multiple packs, that chance drops significantly.

Using the same math but applying it to a "common" deck with a print run of 5,000 yields a result of a 0.00125% chance of the typical American owning a pack (again, the percentage is much smaller when you account for the fact that collectors frequently buy more than just one pack).  A "common" deck, and only 1 in 80,000 people have even a chance at owning a pack!

More importantly than my rough math and estimates, consider that this isn't even taking into account the world at large.  Going globally, assuming as even a distribution as possible, those numbers absolutely shrivel.  As of last year, the estimated world population was 7,125,000,000 people.  Not more than 1 in 71,250 people have a chance at owning a pack of Black Tigers, and not more than 1 in 1,425,000 people have a shot at getting a deck from any typical print run of 5,000.  Considering buying patterns and attrition due to destroyed decks, I've probably overestimated those odds of ownership by as much as ten times the actual chance, but there's no way I could have underestimated the chances, assuming my numbers are reasonably accurate.  But that's "common", according to some people frequenting this forum.

More decks in more hands means more people are interested, more decks get sold, more money gets made, and without having to charge a king's ransom for just one pack!  I still consider the idea of a pack of cards selling for $15 or more ludicrous, even with shipping by first class mail included.  My city is insanely overpriced and I can still get a pack of plain Bikes for under $5 a pack - aside from the time and trouble spent designing the cards, what makes them so special that they cost that much?  Most people can buy Bikes for $2 or $3 purchased individually, no bulk discounts for buying a brick at a time.  I understand profit as a motivating factor for making the cards, but taking in a bit less profit per deck while selling a LOT more decks means you can make them cheaper AND make a bigger profit on the project overall.

Yes, a custom deck costs more to make, especially when you go all crazy with the bells and whistles.  But are all the bells and whistles necessary - do they improve your project, your design, or do they simply attract people like birds looking at shiny objects?  Strip out the bells and whistles and a pack of cards made through USPC Custom can cost under $3 a pack - and probably even less still if you went with LPCC or EPCC.  I can make a thousand of them, sell them at $15 a pack, sure - fat profit, but really short supply.

Assuming a cost of $3 a pack, an average shipping cost of $2 per deck and a print run of only a thousand, that hypothetical deck would earn you a total of $12,000.  Take that same project, drop the price to $7 but make ten times as many decks - right there you've made $20,000 instead of $12,000 and in the process got more of your decks to more people.  Many customers that might buy just one or two at $15 a pack could go as high as a half-brick or more at only $7 a pack.

I can't possibly be the only person who sees the math here.  Bigger print runs and lower prices will get your art, your labor of love, into the hands of more people - people who have the potential to become fans of your work and repeat customers for your future projects, making your business GROW to the point that maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't even need Kickstarter anymore to hold your hand while you cross the street to profitability.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 06:10:06 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2014, 12:17:33 PM »
 

Anthony

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Quote
I can't possibly be the only person who sees the math here.  Bigger print runs and lower prices will get your art, your labor of love, into the hands of more people - people who have the potential to become fans of your work and repeat customers for your future projects, making your business GROW to the point that maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't even need Kickstarter anymore to hold your hand while you cross the street to profitability.

Your not Don, I think you'll start to see a bit of a shift from some in the industry. There is a happy medium out there for both, Limited Editions are great if they are trully thought out and presented in a resonable fashion, every single project out there doesn't need and LE. This conversation has come up alot here and there and I think the companies and designers who start to see this, what seems like a simple dynamic, will be better for it in the long run.
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2014, 07:37:58 PM »
 

Justin O.

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As a relatively new collecter who collects mainly contemporary decks I like the bells and whistles, and I definitely want something fewer people have more than I want something lots of people have. Knowing I can get a deck anytime anywhere makesw me likely to never pick one up because I know that my money is better spent on decks that will only be availiable briefly while there is stock in hand. I don't think that excuses poor design, or cheap shortcuts like popular themes churned out to just make a profit, but I want foil, I want embossing and printing inside of the tuck, and I definitely want to have a deck with a number on it slash a slightly bigger number that makes me appreciate that deck more knowing I could have missed it and might not have gotten a second chance to get it. I like the exclusivity. But I'm not a deck designer, and I agree, I would want everyone's coffee table to have my deck of cards on it, I wouldn't want to be a nerdy niche name, I would want to be a household one.

I think anything can be overdone, but I don't want to see people stop doing it, and I love seeing when it is done well.
I think you are being cranky Don, but I also agree with your points, to a point.
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2014, 12:12:27 AM »
 

sprouts1115

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I live for looking for the guy who comes on the scene and breaks the rules and makes it work.  You can always break the rules, but it's hard to bend them and make it look good.  Usually, it's some schmuck who starts a Kickstarter who makes the same mistakes over and over again and we try to help him out before his Kickstarter expires.  Now that gets old.....
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2014, 02:52:44 AM »
 

Fess

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I was just typing up a big long reply on here and I realized I was typing a rant too.  >:(

Haha, so not my style so I stopped that. These super limited print runs bother me too. When I really love a deck, I buy at least a brick of it. I don't really care if they're $7 or $10 or $15 a deck. That brick is going to be delicious and we'll feast on it at the poker table. Sans, one deck (sometimes, sometimes I can't stop haha) since I've embraced the collector in me not just the deck consumer. The reason low print runs bother me, is it's a pain in the ass to replace some of the things, and sometimes they limit how many I can have. Can you believe that? Oh it's true, sometimes they do. I'm the bad guy for wanting more than four? Print more instead! Seems like a pretty good solution to me. I'm a big fan of a limited print run being 5,000 decks myself, and even then some of them could use a few more thousands right out of the gate. Still, I can understand with costs all that, 2,500 print run being necessary for some decks. Seems like a pretty nice sweet spot too, not everyone can afford a larger run. 1,000 not so sweet, just sayin.

I'm probably the worst collector in the world, I have a hard time seeing decks in terms of money. I know what I spent, but I've already spent it. That cash is already used up. I don't intend on seeing dollars and cents springing forth from the cellophane when I pop the deck. The memories I have of using the decks are priceless though. That's what spurs me to find another copy of a certain deck that was consumed nine years ago. That's why I smile when I pick up a deck of STUD, or think of family no longer with us when I see a deck of Virginia Slims. Making new memories is why I pick up decks now. That and I love a well made deck. So much pleasure from them. I use my Gnostic rose gold deck to play solitaire or blackjack sometimes instead of working haha. I often use one way back decks this way.

I love playing cards, I love the limited ones, I love the unlimited ones. They're beautiful, magical, gorgeous, fun, pure pleasure to me. I can't be cranky about a well made deck. It's hard for me to be upset over a super limited deck that I don't have because I've never had it anyway. Also gives me something for me to hunt.

Nothing but venom for a poorly put together PoS some people pass off as bei... haha I'll stop right here. :)

But yea Don, I think all of us to some degree understand where you're coming from.
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 06:49:58 AM »
 

Leif

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Don, it's not just you. I agree with everything you say.

But from a business standpoint:
Limited sells, because collectors feel that they might be left behind if they don't buy, when there's a limited supply. Example: iPhone.
Bells and whistles sells because the more extra perceived value you can add to an item, the more it sells, and the more you can charge. Example: iPhone
Series sells, because collectors tend to want a complete set.

Fever items at a higher price works like this:
When you sell something at a higher price you need to sell fewer items to recoup the initial investment.
By charging a premium you create a perceived sense of extra value.
By charging a premium only the ones who easily can afford to buy, buy it, those are often the least prone to return stuff. 

If you try to sell many decks cheap, you get much more competition, those standard bikes for example, and there's always someone willing to sacrifice some profit, and sell theirs even cheaper.

From a customer standpoint.
Awesome design and bells and whistles, at a cheap price, and no limited stuff, yes, please.




 








 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2014, 03:13:51 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Don, it's not just you. I agree with everything you say.

But from a business standpoint:
Limited sells, because collectors feel that they might be left behind if they don't buy, when there's a limited supply. Example: iPhone.
Bells and whistles sells because the more extra perceived value you can add to an item, the more it sells, and the more you can charge. Example: iPhone
Series sells, because collectors tend to want a complete set.

Fever items at a higher price works like this:
When you sell something at a higher price you need to sell fewer items to recoup the initial investment.
By charging a premium you create a perceived sense of extra value.
By charging a premium only the ones who easily can afford to buy, buy it, those are often the least prone to return stuff. 

If you try to sell many decks cheap, you get much more competition, those standard bikes for example, and there's always someone willing to sacrifice some profit, and sell theirs even cheaper.

From a customer standpoint.
Awesome design and bells and whistles, at a cheap price, and no limited stuff, yes, please.

As much as I enjoy using my iPhone (MOST of the time!), it's not a good example.  IPhones aren't in limited supply, at least not here - it's been a few years since they had total sellouts all over the place, especially on launch day.  But that doesn't really matter, as I get the general gist of what you're saying.

If you want to talk about limited supplies, look at the customer base.  There's only so many people that are willing to pay the kind of prices collectors pay for a brand new pack of cards - in the eyes of most people, it's just a stack of paper, barely more valuable than a newspaper.

Obviously, going the mass market Rider Backs route is a losing game - they're just barely this side of being commoditized.  But as a famous Buddhist once taught, why must we choose from extremes?  There's a sweet spot, a point where decks are looked at as premium merchandise, but are also less expensive and thus more desirable - more desirable than a pack of Rider Backs AND some uber-premium deck that goes for 20 or 25 bucks a pack and only a small number of people ever get the chance to own them.

The premium end stuff has a limited audience.  If there are companies capable of doing this, even without having to dip in the Kickstarter pool - and we all know which companies they are - then why aren't more people aiming for that sweet spot and turning a project here and a project there into an honest, ongoing business of their own.  I would love to see more people using Kickstarter merely as the launch pad it was meant to be, weaning themselves off of it and becoming businesspeople and employers rather than someone else's employee.
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2014, 07:15:20 PM »
 

Leif

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Don, it's not just you. I agree with everything you say.

But from a business standpoint:
Limited sells, because collectors feel that they might be left behind if they don't buy, when there's a limited supply. Example: iPhone.
Bells and whistles sells because the more extra perceived value you can add to an item, the more it sells, and the more you can charge. Example: iPhone
Series sells, because collectors tend to want a complete set.

Fever items at a higher price works like this:
When you sell something at a higher price you need to sell fewer items to recoup the initial investment.
By charging a premium you create a perceived sense of extra value.
By charging a premium only the ones who easily can afford to buy, buy it, those are often the least prone to return stuff. 

If you try to sell many decks cheap, you get much more competition, those standard bikes for example, and there's always someone willing to sacrifice some profit, and sell theirs even cheaper.

From a customer standpoint.
Awesome design and bells and whistles, at a cheap price, and no limited stuff, yes, please.

As much as I enjoy using my iPhone (MOST of the time!), it's not a good example.  IPhones aren't in limited supply, at least not here - it's been a few years since they had total sellouts all over the place, especially on launch day.  But that doesn't really matter, as I get the general gist of what you're saying.

If you want to talk about limited supplies, look at the customer base.  There's only so many people that are willing to pay the kind of prices collectors pay for a brand new pack of cards - in the eyes of most people, it's just a stack of paper, barely more valuable than a newspaper.

Obviously, going the mass market Rider Backs route is a losing game - they're just barely this side of being commoditized.  But as a famous Buddhist once taught, why must we choose from extremes?  There's a sweet spot, a point where decks are looked at as premium merchandise, but are also less expensive and thus more desirable - more desirable than a pack of Rider Backs AND some uber-premium deck that goes for 20 or 25 bucks a pack and only a small number of people ever get the chance to own them.

The premium end stuff has a limited audience.  If there are companies capable of doing this, even without having to dip in the Kickstarter pool - and we all know which companies they are - then why aren't more people aiming for that sweet spot and turning a project here and a project there into an honest, ongoing business of their own.  I would love to see more people using Kickstarter merely as the launch pad it was meant to be, weaning themselves off of it and becoming businesspeople and employers rather than someone else's employee.

Oops, well, iPhones used to be in short supply, at least here, and I still hear about people waiting in line several hour on release day. Great that you understood my meaning anyway.

The problem seems to be that designers today apparently thinks that their decks must have all the bells and whistles, a box made of unicorn skin, and be hand numbered by the Lord above and then some extra features on top of that, in order to sell. Or is it us collectors that are creating this circle by buying decks with extra everything?

Those companies you mention, they seem to pound out custom, and even semi-custom decks regularly, decks that seems to sell rather well. There is no reason why, as you say, someone could create a thriving business there. However, I can't keep from wondering, how big part of E's or T11's sales are decks? (Assuming those are the companies you meant.)
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2014, 08:36:05 PM »
 

sprouts1115

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@Don - Well, don't look to the casinos.  Those bastards want to convert to bridge cards.  Yea it saves 5% on paper, but ......
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2014, 09:47:13 PM »
 

Justin O.

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When you see Deck of Skeletons selling at $15 a deck through makeplayingcards.com with zero feautures and looking like it will succeed you will see designers that expect that their US/E/LPCC decks with any features whatsoever should be more valuable than that. Adversely because of the Fed 52s, Oracle and Pegan decks out there you will have more people expecting bells that whistle from customs decks because we are getting spoiled by amazing decks that have all of those features. I just picked up one of my decks of Oracles the other day and was reminded how nicely the Bee stock yields to my will. And then I looked over my KS backed projects and frowned that so few of them include it; projects that pulled in more than enough pledge money to include it.
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2014, 12:57:44 PM »
 

Anthony

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Limited does sell...........to the uneducated Leif, lol.

I mean no offense to anyone, but collectors that have been aroound will look passed the word limited, then the print run and focus on the deck. I'm guilty of loving my "Lmited Editions" but only the ones that deserve the moniker. I'm ok with a 1000 deck print run if the deck was really presented and thought out well, I'm even good with a 2500 deck run, hell, I'll take 10K if the desk was well thought out an designed...........but I guess that's what this discussion is really about.

I wouldn't mind seeing 1 in 10 decks offering an LE, the rest can be "really nice" cards available in abundance.......I'll even accept the marketing shout of "Never to be printed again" :)
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2014, 09:50:26 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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@Don - Well, don't look to the casinos.  Those bastards want to convert to bridge cards.  Yea it saves 5% on paper, but ......

I can always trust you to come up with something from left field having little to do with the discussion...  :))  On top of that, your math is wrong - it saves 10% on card stock, a bit less on tuck boxes.

As much as people "demand" those bells and whistles, the foil, the embossing, the metallic inks, the custom stickers, the super-elastic-spastic-plastic coating, there's a lot more who'd be happy just seeing good design work, something that no amount of bells and whistles can improve.  Companies (as realized by Leif) such as E and T11 do this stuff every day.  Sure, they have added income from the magic, but they make a whole lot of decks.  There's far more people buying their cards than are buying their magic, 'cause not everyone into cards is into magic.  (I'm including cardistry in that statement, as well.)

Deck of Skeletons is my biggest concern.  This deck is very inexpensive to make.  It has a great design.  There's pretty much no bells or whistles - he's using a budget printer.  But because the market has "adjusted" to the $15 price (granted, it includes shipping, but still, it's $15), people are willing to pay for it.  Apparently not quite so many, though, since this deck still hasn't hit the rather low goal it's presented for itself.  This is a deck that's also cutting its potential audience short - if this was sold more cheaply, more people would buy it, the designer would make less per deck but he'd sell more decks and each deck would be cheaper to produce, resulting in more profit, and most critically, he'd broaden the potential number of buyers to the point that this hobby of ours would grow, really grow, and not in little trickles.  The deck gets into a hundred pairs of hands, it's nice; some will check out the next project, some won't, some more will look, but the progress will be slow.  But if the cheaper version of this came out and gets into a thousand pairs of hands, now this designer has the start of a serious fan base.

I think it's a very attractive deck.  I also think it's too expensive for me to add to my collection - yet another I add to that list.

This was never a cheap hobby to start with, but why must it become a rich man's hobby exclusively?  That's the direction things are taking right now.  If in a year or two you can't afford any of the new decks coming out except what's coming from Ellusionist, Blue Crown, etc., you now know why.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 09:54:28 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2014, 05:56:18 PM »
 

Marcus

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I've been arguing for this for longer than I care to admit, honestly. I'm not really the average collector, though. I'd rather be able to pick up a brick (preferably for closer to $70-80 + shipping than $200 + shipping) or more so that I'm free to use them as I please. Owning just one or two decks of the same design (usually for around $15 + $10-15 shipping each) just ends up with me not using them and if I can't use them they're not worth it.

Of course there is a place for decks in smaller runs for different reasons. I'd just prefer not to see that as a standard, and not something done intentionally by each and every designer.
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2014, 06:36:36 PM »
 

variantventures

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Nothing's wrong.  We've just had a couple of technological innovations come around that have made it possible for people to produce decks that weren't even marginally possible just a few years ago.  Advances in printing, in crowd-funding, in digital design software, in global communication... Now anyone with an idea can make a deck.  Odds are most of them won't be any good.  But a few will be and as people work with printers they are pushing the boundaries of what can be done with playing cards.  Think of it as evolution in action and sit back and enjoy the ride and try to pick the gems from the dross as they pass by.
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2014, 06:57:46 PM »
 

sprouts1115

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@Don - Yea $15 per deck is probably becoming the norm.  Hell, we might even see it become $25 per deck when we get older.  I remember buying a candy bar for .25 with a cent tax when I was younger. The skeleton deck is a good deck.  It looks vintage. If you like it get it.  You're not planning on killing yourself are you?  You need to stick around.  Yea, you're probably right with the 10% savings.  In the long run, I'm planning on making a game better than "BlackJack" using Poker sized cards and the casinos have to buy my cards.  Imagine that.  Has anyone ever done that?  I would have to make them through the USPCC and they would have to be Q1 in quality control, but thats another headache.   

« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 06:58:32 PM by sprouts1115 »
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2014, 02:03:19 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Nothing's wrong.  We've just had a couple of technological innovations come around that have made it possible for people to produce decks that weren't even marginally possible just a few years ago.  Advances in printing, in crowd-funding, in digital design software, in global communication... Now anyone with an idea can make a deck.  Odds are most of them won't be any good.  But a few will be and as people work with printers they are pushing the boundaries of what can be done with playing cards.  Think of it as evolution in action and sit back and enjoy the ride and try to pick the gems from the dross as they pass by.

I think you've missed the idea I was trying to get across.

Yes, it's possible - more easily now than at any time before - for nearly anyone to make a deck.  And yes, there will be crap decks and good decks, and it's largely subjective as to which fall into which category.

I'm specifically talking about how the costs of decks are rising and the size of print runs are falling, making the hobby more and more rarefied with each new release.  If taken to the logical extreme, there will be a release of a one-deck print run made of solid gold paper with laser-etched embossed cards, debossed boxes with limited edition "1 of 1" stickers, hermetically sealed cellophane impervious to the elements and depths up to 100 meters, etc. - and the few hundred of us still bothering to collect will be fighting tooth and nail over it, while the thousands who used to collect but gave up will shrug our shoulders.  Artificial rarity and higher costs versus a deck "for the masses" that people can afford as well as admire and will use and enjoy, confident in the knowledge that there's more where that came from.


@Don - Yea $15 per deck is probably becoming the norm.  Hell, we might even see it become $25 per deck when we get older.  I remember buying a candy bar for .25 with a cent tax when I was younger. The skeleton deck is a good deck.  It looks vintage. If you like it get it.  You're not planning on killing yourself are you?  You need to stick around.  Yea, you're probably right with the 10% savings.  In the long run, I'm planning on making a game better than "BlackJack" using Poker sized cards and the casinos have to buy my cards.  Imagine that.  Has anyone ever done that?  I would have to make them through the USPCC and they would have to be Q1 in quality control, but thats another headache.   

And people say I make tangents...  At least it takes me more than a single paragraph to go in different directions!

Your first two sentences make about the most sense - but they're still off the mark.  Yes, prices go up, but there are legitimate reasons, like the buying power of our cash getting weaker over time, and there's "man-made" reasons, like someone making a super-short, super-expensive print run.  We can set aside your twenty-five cent candy bars and focus on the real point here, the man-made reasons.  I hesitate to call the reasons "artificial" because they are indeed very real.

And no casino ever has to buy your cards.  Never ever.
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2014, 10:44:30 AM »
 

variantventures

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Nothing's wrong.  We've just had a couple of technological innovations come around that have made it possible for people to produce decks that weren't even marginally possible just a few years ago.  Advances in printing, in crowd-funding, in digital design software, in global communication... Now anyone with an idea can make a deck.  Odds are most of them won't be any good.  But a few will be and as people work with printers they are pushing the boundaries of what can be done with playing cards.  Think of it as evolution in action and sit back and enjoy the ride and try to pick the gems from the dross as they pass by.

I think you've missed the idea I was trying to get across.

Yes, it's possible - more easily now than at any time before - for nearly anyone to make a deck.  And yes, there will be crap decks and good decks, and it's largely subjective as to which fall into which category.

I'm specifically talking about how the costs of decks are rising and the size of print runs are falling, making the hobby more and more rarefied with each new release.  If taken to the logical extreme, there will be a release of a one-deck print run made of solid gold paper with laser-etched embossed cards, debossed boxes with limited edition "1 of 1" stickers, hermetically sealed cellophane impervious to the elements and depths up to 100 meters, etc. - and the few hundred of us still bothering to collect will be fighting tooth and nail over it, while the thousands who used to collect but gave up will shrug our shoulders.  Artificial rarity and higher costs versus a deck "for the masses" that people can afford as well as admire and will use and enjoy, confident in the knowledge that there's more where that came from.
I see what you mean.  It may be possible that economics play a role in this.  While the technology has made it possible for people to do small print runs, the economics of large print runs are pretty much unchanged.  Selling a small batch of cards can be a lot easier than raising the funding for a large run of cards and then trying to find distributors.  And when you're working at those mass-production levels the profit per deck is measured in cents not dollars.

That said, people do seem to be going out of their way to create artificial scarcity.  Maybe it's because they're afraid of being stuck with unsold cards at the higher volumes or perhaps they're only interested in doing 'art' rather than 'business'.  You mentioned the woman making handmade decks.  I know of three people who make hand-made batches of playing cards.  They're much in demand amongst a very small group of collectors who can afford the prices they charge (which are very low when you consider the work that goes into those decks).  Those people are interested in making and owning pieces of art, not playing cards.
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2014, 12:47:37 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I see what you mean.  It may be possible that economics play a role in this.  While the technology has made it possible for people to do small print runs, the economics of large print runs are pretty much unchanged.  Selling a small batch of cards can be a lot easier than raising the funding for a large run of cards and then trying to find distributors.  And when you're working at those mass-production levels the profit per deck is measured in cents not dollars.

That said, people do seem to be going out of their way to create artificial scarcity.  Maybe it's because they're afraid of being stuck with unsold cards at the higher volumes or perhaps they're only interested in doing 'art' rather than 'business'.  You mentioned the woman making handmade decks.  I know of three people who make hand-made batches of playing cards.  They're much in demand amongst a very small group of collectors who can afford the prices they charge (which are very low when you consider the work that goes into those decks).  Those people are interested in making and owning pieces of art, not playing cards.

Of course economics play a role.  And yes, there's extra decks to be sold in most cases after the Kickstarter is over, unless the run was very short and funding just stopped - I've seen that happen a few times, though in most cases the creator simply releases an "unlimited" version of the deck, typically in a different color.

I'm not saying a deck of cards has to be sold in the quantities of a Bicycle Rider Back and at the same price points.  There is a middle ground, a sweet spot, where there's plenty of cards to go around at a decent price.  If there wasn't, the Bicycle Masters decks wouldn't exist, nor would the three basic colors of the Crown deck, the assorted non-rare colors of the NOC, Artifice, the Monarchs, etc. - without shipping or tax, these decks all sell for well under ten dollars a pack, and in most cases at discount for larger orders, often as little as buying three decks at once.

It's not cheap to order a deck in huge quantities, but it is manageable to order a print run of what would now be considered a "huge" amount - 5,000-deck runs used to be the norm because USPC was the only quality printer around and that was their minimum.  They weren't twice as expensive all the way around because of the lower per-deck costs.  Imagine finding a price point low enough that people are happy to buy these cards in bulk, or at least in greater amounts than they'd normally be able to afford if the deck was at least twice as rare and more than double the cost.  A company making a go of it could order 10,000, 15,000 or even 20,000 decks at a time if they sold well enough.

If Ellusionist and many others can do it, why can't more people?  They don't employ a zillion people - most of the companies we'd call "the majors" employ perhaps a dozen or less people, at least for their retail operations.  In other words, they're all manageable small businesses - one of the greatest sources of new employment in this country over the past decade.
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2014, 03:28:24 PM »
 

Collector

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Do people still believe in Limited Editions?


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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2014, 01:18:34 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Do people still believe in Limited Editions?

I'm afraid they do.
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2014, 01:58:46 AM »
 

Justin O.

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I like limited edition, I don't think that is a negative thing. Limited edition shouldnt be a derogatory term.
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2014, 02:32:46 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I like limited edition, I don't think that is a negative thing. Limited edition shouldnt be a derogatory term.

When it's as heavily used and abused as it is today, it might as well be a four-letter word.
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