Gallivant (KS)

[Justin O.]

Gallivant playing cards
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1928711254/gallivant-playing-cards?ref=card

Themed around exploration travel, touching on space exploration for the black suits, representing the furture of exploration, and Sea faring exploration for the 'red' suits that pays homage to our past, with a card back that marriages the two. One way courts. Looking like NPCC but the designer is in talks with EPCC right now trying to see if that is a possible option

[Amperset]

Hi, my name is Connor, I'm one half of the duo that created the cards seen above, and also managing the Kickstarter project.

I'd just like to introduce myself so anyone here knows I'm available to answer any queries and concerns for any potential backers.

I'd also like to thank our backer, Justin, for creating this discussion, I appreciate the support!

[Don Boyer]

Avoid NPCC - that's Noir Arts, right?  I haven't heard a good thing yet about a Noir Arts print job.  Use MPC if you can't get Expert.  I daresay from what I've heard that crayons and oaktag paper would be a better alternative, but bear in mind my information is all second-hand.  All I know about them is that their website is an awful mess including large swaths of text stolen from other sites about their own printing work.  Don't take my word for it - copy a hunk of text and do a Google search like I did and see for yourself.

OK, pros and cons.

Pros:
* Original theme, one I haven't seen anywhere.
* Good artwork, for the most part - not to everyone's tastes, but still appealing.
* Organic feel to the drawings - not a computer-generated line in sight from the looks of it.

Cons:
* One-way back design will be less appealing to players and some collectors, though this is more of an art deck.  It's inaccurate to describe your design as having symmetry - only the outer portion is symmetrical, while the inner area is completely one-way.  I know card players that won't touch one-way designs because of the potential for someone to use them as a cheating device.
* Monochrome backs are good, but monochrome courts tend to be a little less interesting to look at.  Unless it's critical to the theme, throw in a few colors in the courts - three or four at the minimum.
* Your courts are TINY for the amount of real estate on that card - why so small?  Are you trying to make me squint?  Art decks should have BIG ART and relatively little negative space.  And for all the space you have, you could give the figures their proper titles/names on the cards to identify them, unless you're planning to use an extra card for that.  (But bear in mind that many printers use 54-card deck sheets, meaning you'd have to have no ads and sacrifice a joker unless you shelled out extra cash for the extra cards needed.)
* Indices need to go DEEPER into the corners for better functionality and should be darker.
* Speaking of darker, that shade of blue is terrible for visibility, especially with all that hand-drawn detail - it's so pale, it lacks adequate contrast with the white background!  If you insist on blue, make it a DARKER shade - ocean blue rather than what appears to be sky blue in those photos.
* While it's in-theme to have a modern typeface for spacefarer cards and an old-timey one for the seafarer cards, it drastically cuts into the usability of the cards - use ONE typeface uniformly throughout the indices.  Indices should be clearly and quickly readable as well as uniform in design from card to card (same height, same width, as close to the corner as possible, same general appearance).
* $18 for UK-domestic, more for international including the shipping is VERY expensive for a deck of cards that doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles attached.  A lower price would help you move more of them.  Want to fetch a higher price?  Use a higher-quality printer and make a very limited run, something like a thousand decks of cards.  And it would help to explain to Americans what an A6 or an A2 paper size is, in English measures - we're slow that way! 

Overall, the design is good - it just needs tweaks.  Good luck with it!

[Amperset]

Hi, thanks for your feedback!

I received our quote from NPCC this morning, they gave me a fantastic quote. IF we go with them, we will get the linen finish cards we wanted without exceeding our goal and even have small seal stickers which I was hoping to look into.

The decks will be a limited run of 1000, they're not going into mass production, this is just a small job, I guess I should have stated that on the kickstarter, I'll be sure to add it now.

Also many of the cons you mentioned are things we already have in mind to be edited before the deck goes into print, larger face cards and a darker blue, for example.

I will say however, I feel these cards are more targeted towards collectors as an art piece, more than a professional poker deck, if you know what I mean? It's a limited run and it's more art-work focused. I'll be sure to adjust the information on the kickstarter accordingly.

[Don Boyer]

Hi, thanks for your feedback!

I received our quote from NPCC this morning, they gave me a fantastic quote. IF we go with them, we will get the linen finish cards we wanted without exceeding our goal and even have small seal stickers which I was hoping to look into.

The decks will be a limited run of 1000, they're not going into mass production, this is just a small job, I guess I should have stated that on the kickstarter, I'll be sure to add it now.

Also many of the cons you mentioned are things we already have in mind to be edited before the deck goes into print, larger face cards and a darker blue, for example.

I will say however, I feel these cards are more targeted towards collectors as an art piece, more than a professional poker deck, if you know what I mean? It's a limited run and it's more art-work focused. I'll be sure to adjust the information on the kickstarter accordingly.

Even if you must pay a little more, the expression "you get what you pay for" applies here, big-time.  Using a printer like MPC, you can make your print run super-short - as little as a single deck if you want!  I've seen many KS projects using MPC have a goal as low as only $1,000 - it practically guarantees success and, despite the higher per-deck costs, the lower print runs make the overall project more affordable on a small scale, as few as even just a few hundred decks.  MPC isn't perfect, but for a deck made for its art, they've improved significantly and would be a good fit for what you're looking to achieve.

[Bryan Richards]

Avoid NPCC - that's Noir Arts, right?  I haven't heard a good thing yet about a Noir Arts print job.  Use MPC if you can't get Expert.  I daresay from what I've heard that crayons and oaktag paper would be a better alternative, but bear in mind my information is all second-hand.  All I know about them is that their website is an awful mess including large swaths of text stolen from other sites about their own printing work.  Don't take my word for it - copy a hunk of text and do a Google search like I did and see for yourself.

Yet another hate speech from person, that never had any of NPPC's deck in hands.
Followed your advice - googled. And haven't found ANY stolen text. Yes, the website isn't perfect, but let's be honest anyways.

My advice to you - don't lie to people here, and explain the real reason why you hate them.

For those, who'd like to find out why - on very beginning, NoirArts asked don boyer for his feedback on one of their first projects. The response was something like "blah-blah-blah, I'm super cool professional, all best decks in the world was created under my supervision...", and then he asked to pay money for his FEEDBACK! And this "offer" was reasonably rejected.

DUDE! ARE YOU FOR REAL? Most of the projects are created by people, and FOR people who have PASSION for playing cards. Who collect and LOVE them! Who enjoy them!

And you care only about money. Very cool, "professional" attitude: "If you don't pay me, I will lie and do everything to ruin your reputation". 

I disrespect such miserable, greedy people. And very sorry for those deceived people, who believe such "professionals" as don boyer.

You, don, turned this forum into hate-speech-sump, which will never have the same outstanding reputation as unitedcardists, for instance

PS -
regarding NPCC as a printer:
- cardstock is ok
- coating could be better
- tuck boxes - amazing (got both Chivalry and Indictus decks - BEAUTIFUL)
- cool seals with non-standard shapes
I hope their next decks would be even better. It is very interesting to observe how they improve and become more recognizable. A lot of things has to be done, but the progress (from Demon deck and to Indictus) is already noticeable.

[Justin O.]

Hi, thanks for your feedback!

Hey Amperset, so glad to see you engaged here on the forum, and still really awesome to see you open to advice and changes!! One thing I would say, while I really want to give good advice and steer you in the right direction to see this project succeed, I think that Don is an invaluable resource for you, he has substantial experience and perspective for playing card design/creation and I would really encourage you to give thought to his advice.

Can't wait to see where this project goes!!!

[Don Boyer]

Avoid NPCC - that's Noir Arts, right?  I haven't heard a good thing yet about a Noir Arts print job.  Use MPC if you can't get Expert.  I daresay from what I've heard that crayons and oaktag paper would be a better alternative, but bear in mind my information is all second-hand.  All I know about them is that their website is an awful mess including large swaths of text stolen from other sites about their own printing work.  Don't take my word for it - copy a hunk of text and do a Google search like I did and see for yourself.

Yet another hate speech from person, that never had any of NPPC's deck in hands.
Followed your advice - googled. And haven't found ANY stolen text. Yes, the website isn't perfect, but let's be honest anyways.

My advice to you - don't lie to people here, and explain the real reason why you hate them.

For those, who'd like to find out why - on very beginning, NoirArts asked don boyer for his feedback on one of their first projects. The response was something like "blah-blah-blah, I'm super cool professional, all best decks in the world was created under my supervision...", and then he asked to pay money for his FEEDBACK! And this "offer" was reasonably rejected.

DUDE! ARE YOU FOR REAL? Most of the projects are created by people, and FOR people who have PASSION for playing cards. Who collect and LOVE them! Who enjoy them!

And you care only about money. Very cool, "professional" attitude: "If you don't pay me, I will lie and do everything to ruin your reputation". 

I disrespect such miserable, greedy people. And very sorry for those deceived people, who believe such "professionals" as don boyer.

You, don, turned this forum into hate-speech-sump, which will never have the same outstanding reputation as unitedcardists, for instance

PS -
regarding NPCC as a printer:
- cardstock is ok
- coating could be better
- tuck boxes - amazing (got both Chivalry and Indictus decks - BEAUTIFUL)
- cool seals with non-standard shapes
I hope their next decks would be even better. It is very interesting to observe how they improve and become more recognizable. A lot of things has to be done, but the progress (from Demon deck and to Indictus) is already noticeable.

Let's get a few things straight here - when I offer people advice freely, it's just that, freely.  If you hire me as a consultant, that's a different story.

I only care about money?  That's why I give away advice free of charge right here in this forum and have even given away consultations for free to artists/designers I thought had serious potential.  It's also why my rates are pretty freaking low to begin with, and why most of the magic gigs I perform are on a volunteer basis for children in a hospital, right?  'Cause I'm all about the Benjamins, I have deep pockets filled with cash and my bank account is bursting at the seams...  (In the event you haven't noticed, that entire paragraph is the textbook definition of New York-style sarcasm, served over-easy...)

Don't like my opinion about Noir Arts?  Try reading a few opinions from backers who've bought their decks and said they wouldn't buy from them again.  Here's one such customer: http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=8268.msg119412#msg119399

Here's some info on their website - they've updated it since I wrote this, hopefully because they took some of the advice I gave: http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=7997.msg112817#msg112817
I did initially and mistakenly think that the website was owned by Egor but later learned I was wrong.

This deck's designer eventually jumped ship and sold this design to Gambler's Warehouse.  Side note: I helped broker the deal.  Guess how much money I earned from it?  If you guessed anything above "zero dollars," you're completely wrong...  I didn't even ASK for any money for the deal - I just wanted to see Egor make a quality deck, a few bucks and a good reputation for his work.

And about the plagiarism on their site?  I took screen grabs.  You can read about it here.  http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=6512.msg114185#msg114185

They just went and stole swaths of text from another site to describe their own printing process without so much as a word of acknowledgement that the text was 0% of their own creation.  If that doesn't sound dodgy, there's a bridge in Brooklyn I'd love to sell to you...  And again, that text appears to have been updated - so again, hopefully they either took my advice or got wise on their own and realized how bad it made them look.  Some people are terrifically stubborn even when in the wrong - perhaps Roman Kotiv and NA aren't among them; as far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on that one.

Now, is it possible that they've gotten better?  That they've improved their business practices?  That they make fine quality decks today?  Sure it is.  You're right in that I don't personally own any of their decks - and I've never made any claims to the contrary.  I've commented that other people who DO own them have griped about poor quality; that's not a difficult thing to prove around here.  If you think they're great, fantastic - congratulations on owning some Noir Arts decks, I'm sure they give you great pleasure.  But thus far, you're a tiny minority, at least around here.

If others you know have had good experiences with NA decks they own, I'm happy to hear it - have them stop by and offer their opinions, too.  This is a free and open forum, all opposing opinions are welcome.  Just don't expect sugar-coating and frosting on opinions that differ from your own, whether they're mine or someone else's.  I do my best to avoid being rude, but I'm not one for being politically correct, either - much of the people here do the same.  "Cardstock is OK" and "coating could be better" don't sound like ringing endorsements to me and certainly won't to the collectors that frequent the forum and know good stock from bad.

I don't hate Noir Arts - I just don't like what I've seen so far from them.  Show me that they're better, prove to me that they've improved, instead of resorting to personal insults, and perhaps people will care what you have to say.  Insults of a personal nature are the last resort of the ill-equipped, the mental equivalent of arriving at a battle of wits unarmed.

United Cardists has their audience, we have ours - and yes, they do occasionally mix.  We have good relations with UC, even if there are some people there who don't like it here and vice versa; I myself am a member of both forums, though I don't frequent there as much as here, largely due to time constraints.  We're bigger than all the old pissing-contest nonsense that used to take place and we each recognize the value of both forums in the world of card collecting.  The owner of UC, Mike Ratledge, is not just a member here, he's a member of the club that sponsors this forum, 52 Plus Joker - and I welcome his posts whenever he makes them.

Now, do you have anything to add that isn't either incorrect or just a bald-faced insult?