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Tendril - It's Official

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Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #150 on: June 22, 2012, 05:52:15 AM »
 

frostchew

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Firstly, I'd like to congratulate Paul on this deck. The first time I saw the back design on kickstarter I know it was going to be a fantastic looking deck. Having the actual deck in my hands now, I can be sure this is one of the top decks, design wise, produced this year so far. Kudos to you on the fantastic design and theme.

Now on to my gripe. What happened to bee casino quality stock? I remember reading on your kickstarter page that this deck would be on bee casino quality. However, the decks are a little soft. Granted, the amount of ink plays a part in the stiffness of a deck, but when I stack the tendril deck side by side with a shadow masters deck from Ohio, the shadow masters deck is 3 cards thicker. You may argue its an Ohio deck, but when I stack the tendril deck alongside a CARC green acorn v2 deck made in kentucky, the CARC deck is also 3 cards thicker.

I would appreciate some clarification on this matter. Thanks!
 

Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #151 on: June 22, 2012, 07:23:07 AM »
 

Paul Carpenter

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I bet Don can speak to variations in paper stocks better than I can, but this is probably more a question for USPCC than me. Tendril is on Bee stock, that's what is on my contract and what I specced. I believe that Tendril is the first deck that is black, on bee stock with magic finish and I'd guess that variations you see in thickness come down to the batch I paper used. It's impossible to create paper that is 100% identical every time, but I'm pretty sure they didn't swap out the stock and not tell me. :)

The deck does feel an handle quite different from any other deck I own, and I've gotten lots of feedback along those lines. I think it ended up being a pretty unique combo 
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Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #152 on: June 22, 2012, 08:16:58 AM »
 

frostchew

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I want to make it clear that I am perfectly happy with the handling and feel of the deck. Its just something in me that clicked when my eyes read "bee casino quality" while my hands and comparisons say otherwise.

It was recently brought to light that there is "bee stock" and "bee casino stock". Could there have been some miscommunication somewhere?
 

Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #153 on: June 22, 2012, 01:58:10 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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I want to make it clear that I am perfectly happy with the handling and feel of the deck. Its just something in me that clicked when my eyes read "bee casino quality" while my hands and comparisons say otherwise.

It was recently brought to light that there is "bee stock" and "bee casino stock". Could there have been some miscommunication somewhere?
I just looked at the Kickstarter page, and here's what I read:

"Tendril will be printed by The United States Playing Card Company and will be the equal of any of the finest decks out there. Bee Casino grade stock, Q1 quality, Magic finish. There's no real upgrades in this design, it's already the best."

From what I've heard and what I've felt when I first handled this deck, it did seem like just standard Bee Stock, and not Casino stock, which is usually thicker and not as soft. However, I believe none of the decks you mentionned you compared sizes with have magic finish, which Tendril uses, so that may also be it. Not sure though.
 

Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #154 on: June 23, 2012, 01:02:48 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I bet Don can speak to variations in paper stocks better than I can, but this is probably more a question for USPCC than me. Tendril is on Bee stock, that's what is on my contract and what I specced. I believe that Tendril is the first deck that is black, on bee stock with magic finish and I'd guess that variations you see in thickness come down to the batch I paper used. It's impossible to create paper that is 100% identical every time, but I'm pretty sure they didn't swap out the stock and not tell me. :)

The deck does feel an handle quite different from any other deck I own, and I've gotten lots of feedback along those lines. I think it ended up being a pretty unique combo

No matter how many times I have this conversation and post all the info, it seems people either forget or don't pay attention...

USPC has all KINDS of variances in their stocks.  Buy Bicycle stock one month and the same stock in a different month, and you're probably looking at two very different pieces of paper.

They do have benchmarks as to what a particular stock is supposed to be, but they allow for a fair amount of variation.

Paul, there is that point that you stated the contract read that you were getting "Bee stock".  Bee stock and Bee CASINO stock are two different grades of stock.  Both are good but Bee Casino is more durable and stiffer.  Please look at the contract and verify if the mention of "casino grade" or anything similar appears there.  If not, you likely were given standard Bee stock.

But even with that, even using identical stock batches to make a card, the print process itself creates differences.  Zenneth Kok mentioned on this board that he noticed a distinct difference between his Gold Seal New Fan Backs in white and black.  The most likely cause would be the different levels of ink saturation.  This is not just a Bee or Bee Casino stock deck, but it's also got a LOT of ink on BOTH SIDES of the card.  In fact, Paul mentioned that the edges of the black field fade out to gray, meaning that it's possible that every square millimeter of this deck has ink on it.

Comparing this deck's thickness to an Ohio-made Shadow Masters is ridiculous.  They were using UV500 stock at the time and ALL their decks were coming out thick.  I think this trend toward thick decks at E ended after Arcane.

If you want the closest thing possible to an "apples-to-apples" comparison (and it still won't be 100% accurate), you need to compare the Tendril to the only CARC deck made to date with Magic Finish - the Black and Silver Acorn back.  (In fact, the Ivory version of that deck is the very first ever to be Magically Finished on a smooth stock.)  And even that wouldn't be totally accurate, considering the CARC deck has much less ink on the front and somewhat less on the back of each card.

But before you do that, go into your collection and grab a handful of Bicycle Rider Backs.  We know you have them, everyone does!  Get decks that are either new-in-package or recently opened and lightly used, and as many as you're wiling to open in the name of science.  Start stacking these decks side by side and compare them.  If your collection has decks from different batches, all the better - they would have different numbers to the right of the letter code on the Ace of Spades.  Be really scientific about it - bust out a good ruler with metric measurements or better yet (for those who use and can afford them) a good set of calipers that can measure in tenths of a millimeter or smaller.  You'll notice variations from deck to deck, almost certainly - especially in decks made in different batches.

Remember this important little fact - USPC has practically no control over the precise quality of the paper they receive from the paper mills - and they don't source from just one mill.  There are countless factors that can affect its characteristics.  You can think of it like top-notch unblended wine batches made from the same vineyard - year to year, various factors can alter the wine's characteristics - and they'll keep on changing in the bottle over time.  Paper is an organic product, and as such it varies, and just like the wine, even in storage its characteristics can change.  Now that recycled content appears in some percentage in practically every batch, the variances will become even greater (unfortunately tending towards lower quality).  They do try as much as possible to reduce these differences, but they still occur.

And again, just like the wine, it will continue to change while sitting on a store shelf, sitting in the back of a tractor trailer, inside your post office or in a box in some reseller's warehouse, and even when they're in your possession.  If they didn't change, cards taken out of a sealed vintage deck, freshly opened, would look practically identical to modern ones.

OK, I think that's enough windbaggery for now.  Questions?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 01:06:26 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #155 on: June 23, 2012, 12:33:58 PM »
 

frostchew

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I recall Ellusionist mentioning that their UV500 decks were essentially printed on Bee Casino Grade stock, just that the paper stock had UV capabilities added to it, so I don't see why I can't use it as one of the benchmark for comparison.

I did what you suggested Don. I opened a fresh pack of CARC Black Acorn deck in Cambric finish. It is still 3 cards thicker than the Tendril deck.

Remember, my main question here was why the Tendril deck was so much softer and thinner than known Casino Grade stock. If it was just a difference in 1 card, I wouldn't have cared one bit, but 3 cards?
 

Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #156 on: June 24, 2012, 12:11:57 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I recall Ellusionist mentioning that their UV500 decks were essentially printed on Bee Casino Grade stock, just that the paper stock had UV capabilities added to it, so I don't see why I can't use it as one of the benchmark for comparison.

I did what you suggested Don. I opened a fresh pack of CARC Black Acorn deck in Cambric finish. It is still 3 cards thicker than the Tendril deck.

Remember, my main question here was why the Tendril deck was so much softer and thinner than known Casino Grade stock. If it was just a difference in 1 card, I wouldn't have cared one bit, but 3 cards?

Even if that was indeed the case re UV500, the paper tended to be significantly thicker than other decks on the market, including other decks made with Bee Casino paper.  Their Porper clips come in two sizes because of this.  No other card company was or is selling two sizes of Porper Clips as far as I know.

The softness is likely due to the level of ink saturation in the paper, in part if not in whole.

Thickness is one of the many factors that can fluctuate, though admittedly USPC can exercise some control over it in the "paper sandwich" phase of preparing the stock for print.  It's when the two layers of paper are pressed together by rollers with a generous application of graphite-infused glue to give the card its opacity.  They use this moment to set the paper's thickness, but even that process probably has some range of thickness within which it fluctuates in the gluing and pressing.  It's likely measured in tenth of millimeters, but add that fluctuation 56 times, one for each card, joker and ad card or gaff, and it results in variations of thickness from deck to deck.

If looked at in a certain way, the making of playing cards is really more art than science, and will remain so until the development of 100% consistent stock production and zero-tolerance error-free printing, pressing and cutting hardware.  As far as that goes, don't hold your breath...

Did you try the Bicycle experiment yet?

We're still waiting on Paul regarding a confirmation as to whether the stock he contracted for was regular Bee stock or Bee Casino stock.  It's entirely possible it wasn't Casino but we don't know for certain.
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Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #157 on: June 24, 2012, 03:13:30 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Did you try the Bicycle experiment yet?
I have. Both with studs and with Bikes. I've noticed a slight height difference from deck to deck.
 

Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #158 on: June 25, 2012, 01:15:17 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Did you try the Bicycle experiment yet?
I have. Both with studs and with Bikes. I've noticed a slight height difference from deck to deck.

Did you measure the difference in height?

And don't measure in cards.  It's like measuring in cubits using your forearm: most forearms are different lengths just as most cards from one deck to the next are slightly different in thickness, rendering it an invalid standard of measure.
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Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #159 on: June 25, 2012, 01:32:08 PM »
 

Gunshy1

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this deck is amazing! i, at first, didn't think much of the back design or even the faces, but after getting them and spending a week handling them i absolutely love them. the deck broke in quickly and is staying at its peak, performance wise, for quite some time. to me, this is what separates bic and bee casino stock. usually after you get bic stock broken in it continues to break down to the point of being unusable VERY quickly.
have you heard the word???
 

Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #160 on: June 25, 2012, 02:31:25 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Did you try the Bicycle experiment yet?
I have. Both with studs and with Bikes. I've noticed a slight height difference from deck to deck.

Did you measure the difference in height?

And don't measure in cards.  It's like measuring in cubits using your forearm: most forearms are different lengths just as most cards from one deck to the next are slightly different in thickness, rendering it an invalid standard of measure.
I did measure in cards. I'll try measuring with a ruler later on.
 

Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #161 on: June 25, 2012, 04:15:25 PM »
 

Paul Carpenter

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Hey guys. I'm on vacation now so I can't really do any comparisons. All along with USPCC we discussed Bee Casio Grade and I never heard any different. I think that as Don mentioned, stocks vary a lot, and Tendril has a whole to ink on it, and magic finish. The end result surely feels different than any other deck I own.

I've been using one deck extensively for 3 weeks and while the clumping can be a little worse after an hour of use it is still springing well, fanning nicely and generally working well. No chipping edges either.

Btw, there are only FOUR decks left in the store. If you don't have one yet, you are pretty much screwed. :)
Paul Carpenter
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Tendril Ascendant & Nightfall  /  Standards /  Chancellor, Zenith, Deco, Aurum, Tendril: Sold Out
 

Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #162 on: November 09, 2012, 04:58:29 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hey, Paul - I was due two Eco Clips from my KS pledge.  Any news on them?
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Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #163 on: November 09, 2012, 05:00:52 PM »
 

Paul Carpenter

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Lucky you, I actually just got the Teal ones (well, the first batch of them, the rest will come next week) and am going to start packaging up orders this weekend.
Paul Carpenter
Designer - http://encarded.com

Tendril Ascendant & Nightfall  /  Standards /  Chancellor, Zenith, Deco, Aurum, Tendril: Sold Out
 

Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #164 on: November 09, 2012, 05:14:31 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Lucky you, I actually just got the Teal ones (well, the first batch of them, the rest will come next week) and am going to start packaging up orders this weekend.


Sweet!  Did you have any not already spoken for?  There's an STISO from Rainking187 - he said he owned one, sold it, now regrets it and is seeking a new one!
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Re: Tendril - It's Official
« Reply #165 on: November 09, 2012, 05:32:28 PM »
 

Paul Carpenter

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After fulfilling all the Kickstarter orders I will have a few left of each color and those will go into the store.
Paul Carpenter
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Tendril Ascendant & Nightfall  /  Standards /  Chancellor, Zenith, Deco, Aurum, Tendril: Sold Out