Joker 80T

[sprouts1115]

 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2136246983/1960043680?token=6d6f5cb2

[sprouts1115]

it seems its nice to tell a little story on kickstarter. i wrote this a while back when i was looking for someone to draw these cards. of course things have changed and don't take anything in this letter seriously. it just sorta gives you a glimpse of what i was thinking at that time.




yea i have a long road ahead. USPCC only produces a box that holds 56 cards. i found a company that makes tarot card boxes Quality Playing Cards, Inc. they can make a box that can hold 64 cards.
i have a rough drawing of the box, but im at that point were i need an artist. i cant draw.

the main problem i have is that USPCC only prints on a 8 x 7 sheet. it would be wonderful if they made a printer that printed
on 8 x 8 sheets. that would be perfect for me. i have come up with a solution though. what if we made 2 cut sheets. one would be:

2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,J,C,B,Q,K,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,J,C,B,Q,K,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,J,C,B,Q,K2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,J,C,B,Q,K = 56 cards. we would need 5000 prints.


the other cut sheet would be (J = Joker):

A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,A,J,J,J,J,J,J,J,J,J = 56 cards. we would need at least 834 prints of these.


i can imagine this and im not looking forward to it, but i would have fold the box to hold 64 cards 5000 times. take the cards from the first cut sheet put them into the box 5000 times. take 8 cards with the aces and jokers from the second cut sheet
and put them into the box 5000 times.

you might be asking why the last 8 are all jokers on the second cut sheet. will thats going to be my gimmick. on kickstarter i dont want to give out buttons, stickers, hats, or t- shirts. ill give out jokers. in fact ill have 1668 sets of jokers to give away. (834 sheets x 2)

i could say something like this "the first 1000 people who buy a deck of cards ill give you a set of 4 jokers for free" to get the ball rolling. after that its just a deck of cards.


ill tell you a little secret this deck of cards is only the transitional deck. I have already thought of the second deck i want to make. and this second deck i want to sell to the casinos. who would be the better customer. i have even thought of the name of the game it will be called "Gold King"
what better name than the highest card in the deck. you have get it out of your head that the Ace is the highest card. its only because of the french revolution (1789) that the ace became the highest. the ace back then represented the common person. well im hear to say the french revolution is over and the
reign of the ace for 223 years is going to change. sorry i did a rant.

back to gold king. to understand how i came up with the name is you have to know how "Black Jack" came about. back in the 1950's vegas casinos were giving 10 to 1 on your money if you were dealt a Ace of Spades and any other black jack (Jack of Clubs, Jack of Spades)
so if your sitting there with a big bet and you were dealt the Ace of Spades. you were banging the table and yelling "Give me a Black Jack"

well that is what i want the player to do with my game. i want him to bang the table and yell "Give me a Gold King" basically its a combination of black jack, spanish 21, and the tarot cards.
right now at the casinos to make a shoe they open 8 decks of cards take out the 2 jokers and 2 filler cards. i want to make it easy to where they just open the deck put them in the shuffle machine and thats it.

so this where i ask if you can take on this project. what would $1000 get me. im a 43 master plumber who in my lifetime so far has been screwed out of about $12000, but im will to take a chance.

in the transitional deck the court cards King, Queen, Bishop, Chevalier, Jack are all going to have the same blue dreary, pompous faces. i want that, but the jokers are going to be special.

there are 4 jokers: Joker of swords, Joker of staffs, Joker of coins, Joker of cups. i think the Joker of staffs would be the easiest to make. he will have a staff with his likeness on it. i do have an example. here is some homework.

http://table-tango.pokerworks.com/2006/ ... florentin/

http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks03/d01015/d01015.htm

now these cards have a renaissance style. im looking for a medieval style.
just check out the court cards and you have to get past the tits and ass. lol
the court cards tell a story and that is what im looking for. i want the jokers to tell a little story.

[Don Boyer]

As has been stated, USPC will not make any deck with more than 56 cards, period.

U.S. Games Systems is known for being probably the largest printer of tarot and non-standard decks in the country, short of Hasbro.  They might be willing to take on the task, but their card quality has never been as good as USPC.

Don't expect wide acceptance in the card community, especially casinos or poker players - and that counts for that "Gold King" deck as well.  Poker players are extremely traditional, and they don't like changes to their playing cards.  If you don't believe me, look up the Bicycle "PokerPeek" debacle at the WSOP.  And there's a reason casinos got rid of that 10:1 payoff for an Ace of Spades and either black Jack - without that bonus, it's already the only game in the house in which players stand even a slight edge, when played correctly.  The trend has been to make it harder to win, not easier.

BTW: there's a deck that already exists, very similar to this, although USPC is no longer printing it.  They called it a "Five-Hundred" deck, intended for larger rummy games, up to six hands.  Instead of extra courts, it had 11 and 12 in four suits and 13 in two suits.  But there's a reason they no longer make it - it's just not as popular.

[MrMollusk]

I agree with Don. You'd be aiming for a much smaller fan base than you have here. I can say that the majority of card players play with completely standard decks. I can say that I never play with anything other than a completely standard poker playing card deck. Even something like size affects my choice of decks. Pinochle decks are extremely unattractive to me, for example.
A deck that's only applicable for a limited set of games will probably not get much support on Kick Starter. I'd guess the Glaives deck failed mainly because it was bridge size, even though it had a pretty cool and solid design.

[sprouts1115]

Don Boyer - check this out.  you can kind of see where i'm going with this.   http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/math/12435-would-you-stand-at-24/2/#post207034 and USPCC can print a deck with 64 cards.  it just cost a lot. 2 cut sheets.  http://texasplayingcards.com

tell you a secret if i'm successfully at this kickstarter i'm going to launch a indigogo project.  for the second run of these cards 001 002 2013.   

BTW: you could play solitaire, 5 cards poker, 7 card stud, texas hold'em with this deck with no problem.   

[Don Boyer]

Don Boyer - check this out.  you can kind of see where i'm going with this.   http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/math/12435-would-you-stand-at-24/2/#post207034 and USPCC can print a deck with 64 cards.  it just cost a lot. 2 cut sheets.  http://texasplayingcards.com

tell you a secret if i'm successfully at this kickstarter i'm going to launch a indigogo project.  for the second run of these cards 001 002 2013.   

BTW: you could play solitaire, 5 cards poker, 7 card stud, texas hold'em with this deck with no problem.   

When USPC was approached by Bent Castle Workshops to create a 60-card deck, they flatly refused - they make nothing above 56 and the tuck boxes come in two sizes, Bicycle and Bee, neither of which can safely contain 60 cards.  The only way you get them to make it would be to have them do all the printing and cutting as two separate print runs (some of the cards in one print run, the rest in the other, with a lot of leftover spaces unless you have some other ideas needing extra cards), then they send you those cards for you to collate into whatever boxes you can come up with from another printer.  So if you aren't ready to personally sort 10,000 decks of cards down to 5,000 finished, ready-to-sell decks, it doesn't work.

It's a hundred times easier to go with a respectable print shop in Taiwan or Hong Kong or something, and have them do the custom work for you.  That's where Bent Castle eventually landed with their 60-card deck, and they've used a number of others around that area as well.

[sprouts1115]

USPCC will make me 2 cut sheets.   their minimum is 2,500 decks, but they will do it.  it just cost a arm and a leg. 

i need 5000 of the first cut sheet and a minimum of  786 of the second cut sheet.  possible decks 5000 x .10 = 5500 / 7 lines of aces and jokers = 786


Hi Russell,
Here you go!  It’s pricey but we can do it.  Thanks so much!
 
Thanks,
Tiffany Mahan
Business Development Manager
The United States Playing Card Company
Phone: 859-815-7414
Fax: 859-815-7361
E-mail: Tiffanymahan@usplayingcard.com

its going to cost me $14,350 to make this deck from bicycle. 
  if you add box         $1,900
  custom seal              $379

thats like $3.32 per deck for a normal Bicycle Stock, Embossed with Magic Finish deck; and i know their are hidden additional cost.     

[Don Boyer]

USPCC will make me 2 cut sheets.   their minimum is 2,500 decks, but they will do it.  it just cost a arm and a leg. 

i need 5000 of the first cut sheet and a minimum of  786 of the second cut sheet.  possible decks 5000 x .10 = 5500 / 7 lines of aces and jokers = 786


Hi Russell,
Here you go!  It’s pricey but we can do it.  Thanks so much!
 
Thanks,
Tiffany Mahan
Business Development Manager
The United States Playing Card Company
Phone: 859-815-7414
Fax: 859-815-7361
E-mail: Tiffanymahan@usplayingcard.com

its going to cost me $14,350 to make this deck from bicycle. 
  if you add box         $1,900
  custom seal              $379

thats like $3.32 per deck for a normal Bicycle Stock, Embossed with Magic Finish deck; and i know their are hidden additional cost.   

Actually, there's a simpler, less costly solution to making this deck.  If you make it using the same stock, finish and back design as a common USPC brand, you've just eliminated the need to print most of the cards yourself.  Then a person interested in using your deck concept can simply add your cards to their standard off-the-shelf deck to create the deck you have in mind.  If you can come up with enough alternate-deck card designs and perhaps print your games' rules on some of the cards, you might even come up with enough cards to fill a 56-card sheet and use the USPC standard boxes to put the cards in, but with your custom design on the outside.  You could sell them as two-deck sets (standard plus your custom cards) or individually, to be combined by the buyer with their own playing cards.  The second alternative can be more cost-effective than you shipping two decks to someone, especially when one of them can probably be had cheaper from a local pharmacy or big-box store.

This still means you have to make a minimum of 2,500 decks, but you don't need to print anything extra or come up with more-costly custom packaging.

The most common deck designs you would be likely to use would be:

Bicycle Rider Back (Standard) in red and blue.
Bee in red or blue.

Some less common but popular and regularly-stocked USPC designs you could use would be:

Bicycle Rider Back (Bridge-Sized) in red and blue.
Aviator (smooth stock) in red and blue.  (Normally only sold in airports.)
Streamline (smooth stock) in red and blue. (Regularly stocked for $0.99 in most US WalMarts.)
Tally Ho Circle Back in red and blue.  (Regional brand - available in magic shops and NYC only)
Tally Ho Fan Back in red and blue.  (Ditto ^^^)

Another idea occurs to me as I'm writing this.  Let's say that coming up with 56 cards is a bit much for your deck concept, but that you could fill 28 of them, no sweat.  You print the 28-card set twice on the same sheet, once with red backs, once with blue backs in the same design.  Now your consumer can create two matched decks from your box of cards and their locally-available decks - a "poker set".

Finally, if you did simply want the deck made with a smaller deck size for adding to a standard deck, I know that USPC is capable of creating such smaller decks with slimmer deck boxes - their children's game decks and Sheepshead deck are prime examples.  It would only be a matter of what they would charge for making them.

Whatever you decide, remember, the project has to be cost-effective or there's no point in making it, unless you're happy with being a failing involuntary non-profit!  The idea of creating an add-on deck rather than a full-blown standalone deck saves you from reinventing the wheel and having USPC print those standard-deck cards as part of your custom run.  I mean, they already exist and people probably have them readily available - it'd be crazy to reprint them custom.  And I imagine that anything that helps USPC sell more standard decks would be of some interest to them.

[sprouts1115]

Don Boyer  -  i'm starting to like this forum better than united cardists.  you've made me look at things differently.  i'm hell bent on making a 64 card custom deck.  win, lose or fail, i'm going to have 5000 decks.  i'm committing myself to 5000 decks on cut sheet #1, but i think in the future to be more cost effective for the second run. i might just go ahead and do a 2,500 run on cut sheet #2.

texasplayingcards.com

it would be cost effective because right now the second cut sheet cost me around $6.22 a deck (786 minimum decks needed for 5000 decks) = $4889

but if i get 2,500 decks the price would be. 2,500 x 1.75 = $4,375.

Thanks Don you saved me $500 bucks.  so now i'm committed for 7,500 decks.   5000 for cut sheet #1 and 2500 for cut sheet #2.   man i'm going to have a crap load of aces and jokers left over. 

by the way, the reason for the $1.75 per deck is USPCC is just sending the cards in a plain white tuck boxes with no cellophane.

"No seals or cello wrap due to repackaging labor needed by customer after the order ships"

i'm going to try and sell some of the aces and jokers in the kickstarter by mailing them in an envelope with a stamp.  i'm going to flatten the white bicycle tuck box and put the aces and jokers inside for more protection.   might as well use them i'll have a bunch of them on my living room floor.  lol   

so if i do a second run 001 002 2013  (deck,run,year)  the second run would be a lot cheaper. 

5000 decks at $1.75 = $8,750
box to hold 64 cards = $1,900
custom seal              =    $379  for a total of $11,029 at $2.21 a deck

if the kickstarter is successful, i would like to start another one on indiegogo.com  for the second run.  it's the dark side of kickstarter.  it has less traffic, but you can do practically anything you want.  i want to have a raffle, i want to sell more than brick to resellers, i want to have a special reward for resellers in France   and i want to maybe find investment angles.  i need angles to get a patent.  they say a patent cost about $10,000.  it cost about $2800 just to get a patent pending license.   

[Don Boyer]

Don Boyer  -  i'm starting to like this forum better than united cardists.  you've made me look at things differently.  i'm hell bent on making a 64 card custom deck.  win, lose or fail, i'm going to have 5000 decks.  i'm committing myself to 5000 decks on cut sheet #1, but i think in the future to be more cost effective for the second run. i might just go ahead and do a 2,500 run on cut sheet #2.

texasplayingcards.com

it would be cost effective because right now the second cut sheet cost me around $6.22 a deck (786 minimum decks needed for 5000 decks) = $4889

but if i get 2,500 decks the price would be. 2,500 x 1.75 = $4,375.

Thanks Don you saved me $500 bucks.  so now i'm committed for 7,500 decks.   5000 for cut sheet #1 and 2500 for cut sheet #2.   man i'm going to have a crap load of aces and jokers left over. 

by the way, the reason for the $1.75 per deck is USPCC is just sending the cards in a plain white tuck boxes with no cellophane.

"No seals or cello wrap due to repackaging labor needed by customer after the order ships"

i'm going to try and sell some of the aces and jokers in the kickstarter by mailing them in an envelope with a stamp.  i'm going to flatten the white bicycle tuck box and put the aces and jokers inside for more protection.   might as well use them i'll have a bunch of them on my living room floor.  lol   

so if i do a second run 001 002 2013  (deck,run,year)  the second run would be a lot cheaper. 

5000 decks at $1.75 = $8,750
box to hold 64 cards = $1,900
custom seal              =    $379  for a total of $11,029 at $2.21 a deck

if the kickstarter is successful, i would like to start another one on indiegogo.com  for the second run.  it's the dark side of kickstarter.  it has less traffic, but you can do practically anything you want.  i want to have a raffle, i want to sell more than brick to resellers, i want to have a special reward for resellers in France   and i want to maybe find investment angles.  i need angles to get a patent.  they say a patent cost about $10,000.  it cost about $2800 just to get a patent pending license.

I still think you're spending far more money than you have to in order to achieve your goal.  If you used a standard pack of playing cards such as Bicycle Standard and made these cards as an add-on, you'd only need to make a dozen extra cards per deck.  You could use that 2,500-sheet print run and make TEN THOUSAND of your decks with it, with eight leftover cards per sheet that you can use to create magician's gaff cards if you want.  Hell, you find a magician who wants to make a gaff, you can sell him the card spaces on your sheet, dropping the cost to produce even lower.  Packaging?  Get a custom box that's big enough to hold your 64 cards, drop your dozen cards in it and sell it with a standard pack.  If you want to be really lazy about it, you could even make the 64-card box large enough to accommodate your 12 cards plus the standard deck, box and all.

If you were able to use standard jokers in your deck, you'd only need ten cards per deck, making that same 2,500 run into 12,500 decks.

I could see attempting this as a custom deck if that's where you want to go with this, with wholly original design work, but I think you should try contacting US Games - they practically specialize in the "abnormal" deck market, with lots of tarot decks, major arcana decks, custom card game decks, etc., in sizes from miniature to downright huge.  A single print run instead of two, a box made specifically to accommodate your deck from the start without you having to manually reload a blessed thing...  The company has a lot going for it in terms of what you want - and it might even cost less.  One of the most important factors you left off of your cost calculations by going with USPC is the cost of your time spent opening all those USPC boxes and manually assembling decks yourself.  Like many other resources, time really is money, in terms of what else you could be doing with that time.  Going with US Games would save you LOTS of time.  If they like it enough, who knows - perhaps they'll simply license it from you and make it in perpetuity or something...they do all the work, you collect royalties!

Another possibility would be to contact Bent Castle Workshops.  They've been making 60-card custom decks for a while now, and they know where to go to get this stuff done.  If they're not willing to help you produce your deck, they might at least be willing to clue you in on where to look for custom printers willing to handle oversized decks like yours.

[sprouts1115]

All i know is that these cards have to be made by USPCC.  they are willing to send these cards in blank white boxes without cellophane. im commited to 7,500 decks.  5000 +or- 10% of cut sheet #1 and 2,500 of cut sheet #2.  i'm going to have a shit load of extra aces and jokers.  i'm willing to assemble 5000 decks myself.  if i sell 5000 or more decks; maybe the box manufacture can assemble the cards for me for a fee.   i'll have USPCC ship the decks to them.   Bishops are up.  we should have the Bishop of clubs soon.  it needed a tweak.  Cavalier of hearts should be out next.  http://texasplayingcards.com

Don - i'll check out the box those manufactures.  i really need to find my goldelocks.  if you post anymore don, i might think i owe you money. lol   

[Leif]

Let me see if I got this right.

You want a deck with 64 cards.

You want custom colored pips.

You want the numbers inside the suits to make more room for the Cavalier. (to be honest I don't quite understand what you mean here, but that's probably my lack of knowledge about English card terminology.) EDIT: Having looked at your website I can now say that I understand what you mean, but that I am not very pleased with the design. The Bishops, though, look AWESOME.

The extra cards that sets it off from a normal deck of cards is:
One Bishop and one Cavalier in each suit=8 cards, and four different jokers= 4 cards. So, the total amount of new cards is 12.

I would like to know, who is your target customer? As this deck stands now, this is the way I see it:

Poker aficionados would not use this deck because the extra cards ruins their carefully calculated risk/chance numbers.

Flourishers would probably not use it because they are used to decks with 52 cards and these extra cards don't add any performance multiplier for them. Now, if these extra cards had the ability to hoover in the air for extended amounts of time, or return like a boomerang when you throw it, that would be another thing, but they don't, so that is not an option.

Magicians would not use this deck because then they would have to explain what those cards are to every new spectator all the time.

I don't know if collectors would buy this deck.

That leaves kids and leisure players.

Kids are adaptable and love to learn new games, leisure players, not so much so, I think.

Here's what I would do:

If the extra court cards and jokers are most important, drop the custom colored pips and moving the indices, choose a standard deck, design the 12 cards in the style of your chosen standard deck and have USPCC print only the 12 extra cards. Call the 12 cards something cool, Playing Cards - Extended, Extend the deck, extend the fun, for example. Invent a few games, say 5-8, that can be played with the extended deck, where the extra cards are important for the gameplay, and have USPCC sell them as add-on deck to their regular decks, or bundled with a regular deck and rules for the games you invented.

Or do it yourself: Have them print 2500 sheets with only the extra cards like Don suggested, and sell them yourself. I still think you need to design some games to go with the add-on cards. It doesn't have to be anything advanced, it could be Go fish with the extra jokers as wildcards, or each joker could count as a whole pair, or a joker lets you immediately take three cards from any of your opponents, the possibilities are endless.

If the custom colored pips are most important, drop the extra cards, and make a custom 52 cards deck with an awesome back, courts and pips, and incredible handling.

I was actually looking for a four color deck not so long ago, however I read at some forum that a lot of the poker players didn't like the idea, they dismissed the concept rather harshly.

I think black spades, red hearts, blue diamonds and green clubs would look rather good, myself.

I also think the extra cards would be cool, not as a collector or magician or poker player, though, I just generally like odd games and stuff.

But, as with any venture, you have to think about the business side of things, and try to minimize your potential personal economic loss. It would feel awkward ending up with ten thousand add-on decks that seemingly nobody wants, around the house, and even more so with the knowledge that I could have prevented it.

I hope this long, rambling post helps you in some way, and good luck!

[Don Boyer]

Let me see if I got this right.

You want a deck with 64 cards.

You want custom colored pips.

You want the numbers inside the suits to make more room for the Cavalier. (to be honest I don't quite understand what you mean here, but that's probably my lack of knowledge about English card terminology.) EDIT: Having looked at your website I can now say that I understand what you mean, but that I am not very pleased with the design. The Bishops, though, look AWESOME.

The extra cards that sets it off from a normal deck of cards is:
One Bishop and one Cavalier in each suit=8 cards, and four different jokers= 4 cards. So, the total amount of new cards is 12.

I would like to know, who is your target customer? As this deck stands now, this is the way I see it:

Poker aficionados would not use this deck because the extra cards ruins their carefully calculated risk/chance numbers.

Flourishers would probably not use it because they are used to decks with 52 cards and these extra cards don't add any performance multiplier for them. Now, if these extra cards had the ability to hoover in the air for extended amounts of time, or return like a boomerang when you throw it, that would be another thing, but they don't, so that is not an option.

Magicians would not use this deck because then they would have to explain what those cards are to every new spectator all the time.

I don't know if collectors would buy this deck.

That leaves kids and leisure players.

Kids are adaptable and love to learn new games, leisure players, not so much so, I think.

Here's what I would do:

If the extra court cards and jokers are most important, drop the custom colored pips and moving the indices, choose a standard deck, design the 12 cards in the style of your chosen standard deck and have USPCC print only the 12 extra cards. Call the 12 cards something cool, Playing Cards - Extended, Extend the deck, extend the fun, for example. Invent a few games, say 5-8, that can be played with the extended deck, where the extra cards are important for the gameplay, and have USPCC sell them as add-on deck to their regular decks, or bundled with a regular deck and rules for the games you invented.

Or do it yourself: Have them print 2500 sheets with only the extra cards like Don suggested, and sell them yourself. I still think you need to design some games to go with the add-on cards. It doesn't have to be anything advanced, it could be Go fish with the extra jokers as wildcards, or each joker could count as a whole pair, or a joker lets you immediately take three cards from any of your opponents, the possibilities are endless.

If the custom colored pips are most important, drop the extra cards, and make a custom 52 cards deck with an awesome back, courts and pips, and incredible handling.

I was actually looking for a four color deck not so long ago, however I read at some forum that a lot of the poker players didn't like the idea, they dismissed the concept rather harshly.

I think black spades, red hearts, blue diamonds and green clubs would look rather good, myself.

I also think the extra cards would be cool, not as a collector or magician or poker player, though, I just generally like odd games and stuff.

But, as with any venture, you have to think about the business side of things, and try to minimize your potential personal economic loss. It would feel awkward ending up with ten thousand add-on decks that seemingly nobody wants, around the house, and even more so with the knowledge that I could have prevented it.

I hope this long, rambling post helps you in some way, and good luck!

I've been trying to convince him of many of these points, but to no avail - looks like a lost cause! 

An "expansion" deck using an existing, common deck design is the least risky way to go about this, but he's dead set on making it his way, start to finish, despite the increased financial risk.  As I see it, he could do that later if the expansion deck is a financial success.  The casual game market would indeed pick up on this, especially if he created rules for new games and rules additions for old ones - but that's the extent of it.  That can be enough when you have the right concept - but for every successful concept, there's quite a few that aren't.

While USPC doesn't make larger decks, I know that they make smaller ones - their Sheepshead deck and children's games decks are two prime examples.  Make the twelve extra cards in an existing back design, use a few more for printing the additional rules and games, and you're done, easy peasy.  If I could do the art, I could probably bang it out in a few weeks from concept to finished design.

[Leif]

I know, Don, but sometimes it helps to see it written in another way. But you're right, I could just have said: I agree with Don. 

Another thing I was thinking about: How to attract customers? This being a new kind of deck, I imagine that it probably won't work with a website.

The term playing cards has an average of 550.000 searches/month
Playing cards deck about 33.000
buy playing cards about 8.100
64 playing cards  about - (too low search volume to measure)

Maybe I would try selling it at... What do you call that, when lots of different sellers sell their stuff, each with their own table? market place, fair maybe? Or, I would try at a toy fair, try to get some big company to take up my product.

[Don Boyer]

I know, Don, but sometimes it helps to see it written in another way. But you're right, I could just have said: I agree with Don. 

Another thing I was thinking about: How to attract customers? This being a new kind of deck, I imagine that it probably won't work with a website.

The term playing cards has an average of 550.000 searches/month
Playing cards deck about 33.000
buy playing cards about 8.100
64 playing cards  about - (too low search volume to measure)

Maybe I would try selling it at... What do you call that, when lots of different sellers sell their stuff, each with their own table? market place, fair maybe? Or, I would try at a toy fair, try to get some big company to take up my product.

Are you familiar with Kickstarter?  You should really check it out.

http://kickstarter.com

While you're at it, go to the top of the topic list for the Playing Card Plethora and you'll find the New Deck Report.  I update that pretty much daily and I cover all known Kickstarter projects (among other things), giving progress reports over time all in one place.

[Leif]

I know, Don, but sometimes it helps to see it written in another way. But you're right, I could just have said: I agree with Don. 

Another thing I was thinking about: How to attract customers? This being a new kind of deck, I imagine that it probably won't work with a website.

The term playing cards has an average of 550.000 searches/month
Playing cards deck about 33.000
buy playing cards about 8.100
64 playing cards  about - (too low search volume to measure)

Maybe I would try selling it at... What do you call that, when lots of different sellers sell their stuff, each with their own table? market place, fair maybe? Or, I would try at a toy fair, try to get some big company to take up my product.

Are you familiar with Kickstarter?  You should really check it out.

http://kickstarter.com

While you're at it, go to the top of the topic list for the Playing Card Plethora and you'll find the New Deck Report.  I update that pretty much daily and I cover all known Kickstarter projects (among other things), giving progress reports over time all in one place.

Oh, I meant if it was me who had his project.

I have browsed kickstarter and I look at the NDR regularly. I think you are doing great work with that list. The only dumb thing with kickstarter is that I can't start a project from my country. I can back, but not start.

[Don Boyer]

I have browsed kickstarter and I look at the NDR regularly. I think you are doing great work with that list. The only dumb thing with kickstarter is that I can't start a project from my country. I can back, but not start.

Give it time.  It's only recently they started accepting projects from the UK.  I'm thinking the Euro-centric part of Europe is next.

[sprouts1115]

check out the cavalier of diamonds.  check out your current jack of diamonds.  the fonts are going to change for the "T","B" and "C"

[sprouts1115]

test:  trying to post a Adobe PDF





aceofheart.pdf

[Don Boyer]

test:  trying to post a Adobe PDF





aceofheart.pdf

I guess you might have missed this:

Allowed file types: gif, jpg, png, tiff, pdf, wmv, wma, psd, mp3, mp4, wma, mpg

See?  No PDF!

[sprouts1115]

bishop of clubs.

[sprouts1115]

cavalier of clubs

[sprouts1115]

cavalier of spades.  tarot symbol.     kickstarter rewards need some tweaking, but where?

[sprouts1115]

This is what I in-vision for the back of the card....This is basically the theme with the Texas Star, but with a circle. 

[sprouts1115]

added some skulls to the front of the box.  Is this theme a little to simple?

[Don Boyer]

This is what I in-vision for the back of the card....This is basically the theme with the Texas Star, but with a circle.

You'll want to change it up quite a bit - people around here recognize the Texan '45 1889 deck pretty quickly.

added some skulls to the front of the box.  Is this theme a little to simple?

Simple is fine, but I think people will be a little befuddled over the name you're choosing.  Plus you might want to insure that the name isn't already copyrighted first, particularly for another brand of cards - you could run into a lot of headaches.  (Can you even copyright a state name?)

[sprouts1115]

Don - I think your right.

[xela]

I still don't get what this is. Like, you do realize your deck can't be used for anything, right?

[Don Boyer]

I still don't get what this is. Like, you do realize your deck can't be used for anything, right?

Well, if you strip out the extra cards, you can play poker, but then...why buy the extra cards? 

I tried talking to him about simple, logical, less-expensive ways to get his deck made - no dice.  He's stopped listening because he he's stubborn about making it his way and no other.  Texas cards that have nothing to do with Texas, a name that's very similar to an already-existing deck (who's back he's thinking of imitating), all those extra cards when USPC will only make 56 for a deck - he's literally planning to place two print runs and manually combine the decks together himself...  There's little rhyme or reason to it all, but hey, if it makes him happy, whatever...

[sprouts1115]

Don - Your wrong.  You have giving me some very good advice, but sometimes you have to go with your gut feeling.  The first run of these cards I want them to be special.  All i'm doing in the first deck is to glorify the Bicycle 808 series; They are the standard of today.  As for the Texas theme, well everything is bigger in Texas right?  I've have the biggest royal flush.  Instead of 2 pip cards and 3 court cards for your standard royal flush(A, K, Q, J, 10).  Mine has 5 court cards(K, Q, B, C, J).  Tell you a secret.  I have already thought of the 2nd deck I want to make.  In that deck the (10) card will changed to the (T)ower card.  It will be a transitional card from the court cards to the pips.  Also in the 2nd deck there will be a lot of symbolism from the Tarot cards especially from the Cary-Yale Tarot.  http://www.albideuter.de/html/cary_yale.html

It interesting to note the Cary-Yale had 6 court cards.  King, Queen, Knight(male), Knight(female), Page(male), Page(female)

Below is correspondence from Tiffany a while back.

my second question:  has anything changed with the tuck vendors.  i notice you have overseas tuck vendors now.  can any of them made a box that holds 64 cards, possibly with bee stock.   if they are thinking about about it, i would be the perfect experiment.  can you check it out? 

We’ve had vendors in China for years.  What type of box would you like a quote for?  I need all specs and minimum order quantity is 5,000 decks with a 4 month lead time.  If you need us to load the decks in the boxes that would be an additional charge as well.

Hi Russell,
No problem, I can look into pricing from our China vendor.  We purchase our drawer boxes from them.  Is that the type you'd like?  If so, what color paper would you like them wrapped?  Please note it takes 4 months for us to get them from China.  The minimum order quantity is 5,000 and we've never done more than a 56 card deck box so we'll have to make sure they can make them at your specs. 

Please note that our Bicycle and Bee cards have overlapping caliper specs.  Depending on paper, humidity etc the decks could end up at similar thickness. 

Thanks so much!

Tiffany Mahan
Business Development Manager
The United States Playing Card Company
**Our scheduled factory shut down days are May 24th and June 24th-28th.  Projects that are set to finish at the end of June will push out to the beginning of July due to the shutdown.**

[Don Boyer]

my second question:  has anything changed with the tuck vendors.  i notice you have overseas tuck vendors now.  can any of them made a box that holds 64 cards, possibly with bee stock.   if they are thinking about about it, i would be the perfect experiment.  can you check it out? 

We’ve had vendors in China for years.  What type of box would you like a quote for?  I need all specs and minimum order quantity is 5,000 decks with a 4 month lead time.  If you need us to load the decks in the boxes that would be an additional charge as well.

Hi Russell,
No problem, I can look into pricing from our China vendor.  We purchase our drawer boxes from them.  Is that the type you'd like?  If so, what color paper would you like them wrapped?  Please note it takes 4 months for us to get them from China.  The minimum order quantity is 5,000 and we've never done more than a 56 card deck box so we'll have to make sure they can make them at your specs. 

Please note that our Bicycle and Bee cards have overlapping caliper specs.  Depending on paper, humidity etc the decks could end up at similar thickness. 

Thanks so much!

Tiffany Mahan
Business Development Manager
The United States Playing Card Company
**Our scheduled factory shut down days are May 24th and June 24th-28th.  Projects that are set to finish at the end of June will push out to the beginning of July due to the shutdown.**

Hmmmm, yes...  And how does that make you feel? 

[sprouts1115]

Sneak peek at website before kickstarter launch.  Any criticism?

[Don Boyer]

Sneak peek at website before kickstarter launch.  Any criticism?

I might have some - if I could figure out what the hell this is supposed to be...

[sprouts1115]

The box.  See any other errors or problems?  With your help, I would like to send the final to Tiffany in a week.

The "01 001 2013" means (deck, run, year)

[Loop Cuts]

I actually think you have something.  Drop me a line at loopcuts@Gmail.com and I'll see how I can help.

[xela]

I actually think you have something.  Drop me a line at loopcuts@Gmail.com and I'll see how I can help.

Dude you gotta be joking. The design makes no sense. The added cards are just silly. 

[sprouts1115]

About a year ago on Wikipedia. I was deep in the rabbit hole clicking on this link and that link. It's one of those links I wished I've saved.  I can't find it; I've tried.  It showed  a Spanish deck of 40 cards.  Back then(13th or 14th century) 40 card decks were more popular then 52 card decks.  Always, they played this game called "twenty-one".  (K, Q, J, 7, 6, 5 ,4 ,3, 2, A)  X 4 suits = 40 cards.   The Ace could be 1 or 11.  It had basically the same rules as modern "BlackJack".  I thought, "Wow, this game is so much better than "BlackJack".  It's so simple".  What if you got a King and a Queen?  that would be 19.  I bet 40 card deck users thought, "Why would I want to add more cards.  Do I want to play with 10 cards in a suit or 13 cards in a suit? 

Then I found out in the beginning the Ace was not the highest card.  The Ace has been the highest for only the past 200 years.  Cards are roughly 600 years old.  Then I thought, "How can I make a deck with the Ace being the lowest card...."  If you think about it, I'm adding 3 cards. So, (K, Q, B, C, J, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, A, J)  X 4 suits = 64 cards.   You have to ask, "Do I want to play with a deck with 16 cards in a suit with more court cards and some wild card they call the Joker?"

 

[Don Boyer]

About a year ago on Wikipedia. I was deep in the rabbit hole clicking on this link and that link. It's one of those links I wished I've saved.  I can't find it; I've tried.  It showed  a Spanish deck of 40 cards.  Back then(13th or 14th century) 40 card decks were more popular then 52 card decks.  Always, they played this game called "twenty-one".  (K, Q, J, 7, 6, 5 ,4 ,3, 2, A)  X 4 suits = 40 cards.   The Ace could be 1 or 11.  It had basically the same rules as modern "BlackJack".  I thought, "Wow, this game is so much better than "BlackJack".  It's so simple".  What if you got a King and a Queen?  that would be 19.  I bet 40 card deck users thought, "Why would I want to add more cards.  Do I want to play with 10 cards in a suit or 13 cards in a suit? 

Then I found out in the beginning the Ace was not the highest card.  The Ace has been the highest for only the past 200 years.  Cards are roughly 600 years old.  Then I thought, "How can I make a deck with the Ace being the lowest card...."  If you think about it, I'm adding 3 cards. So, (K, Q, B, C, J, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, A, J)  X 4 suits = 64 cards.   You have to ask, "Do I want to play with a deck with 16 cards in a suit with more court cards and some wild card they call the Joker?"

Different regions of the world have developed many different decks over the centuries.  In India, a card-like game played with discs has thirteen suits.  Japanese Hanafuda decks are divided into months rather than suits.  Then there's Euchre decks, Pinochle decks, German-suited decks, Italian-suited decks...  To which I say, "So?"

The standard in the United States has been developing for practically as long as there's been a United States.  While others have developed non-standard decks, they're called non-standard for a reason.  People are used to the standard, and there's a reason the standard sells millions of decks a year while the non-standards might sell a few thousand a year.  I've even tried showing you ways to get it done more cheaply so as to reduce the financial risk, but you weren't interested.

So, have fun developing your deck - and selling it.  It won't be easy.  But what in life is, right?

[sprouts1115]

Just got the new revisions from Vivian today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kt1YHdKFaI... (Jump to 3min) Things are going to change on the website soon. Sneak peak. Jokers are going to be special. I love the Jokers they symbolize what the 2nd deck is going to look like.

Don - The best special deck that I can think of is Aristocrat 300 stock with Silver gilled edges with 1 metallic ink.  Anything that is white in the court card and all numbers within the suit are now silver.  It will have a special silver seal and be numbered (1-100).  Any suggestions to making this more special?  I could make some Stripper decks non numbered.  With Aristocrat stock that would be the perfect medium.  What do you think maybe having a later reward of Stripper decks (1-100) with mabe a free shirt....ect limited decks seems to work..  I know I only want to do 5000 Silver gilded edges.

[Don Boyer]

Just got the new revisions from Vivian today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kt1YHdKFaI... (Jump to 3min) Things are going to change on the website soon. Sneak peak. Jokers are going to be special. I love the Jokers they symbolize what the 2nd deck is going to look like.

Don - The best special deck that I can think of is Aristocrat 300 stock with Silver gilled edges with 1 metallic ink.  Anything that is white in the court card and all numbers within the suit are now silver.  It will have a special silver seal and be numbered (1-100).  Any suggestions to making this more special?  I could make some Stripper decks non numbered.  With Aristocrat stock that would be the perfect medium.  What do you think maybe having a later reward of Stripper decks (1-100) with mabe a free shirt....ect limited decks seems to work..  I know I only want to do 5000 Silver gilded edges.

You might (or might not) have noticed that non-standard decks are rarely mentioned on this site.  There's a reason for that.  Most of the people here who collect cards have LITTLE to NO interest in non-standard decks for their collections.  It's entirely possible that you could have the next hit card game on your hands with your Texas playing cards (a name that's still utterly incongruous with the deck's design), but it would probably interest only a tiny fraction of the people here.  Whatever sound advice I've offered regarding your deck has been ignored, so I see no point in offering any more unless you're interested in hiring me for my professional consulting services - and even then I would probably turn you down because you'd still be thoroughly uninterested in anything practical I'd have to say about this.

I bear you no ill will and wish you the best of luck on your venture.

[sprouts1115]

Very good Don.  Let me tell you a little story about the symbolism behind the card I just posted.  The whole 808 series cards are based upon these cards.  These are the cards that set our cards today.  Pierre Maréchal - 1567 http://www.wopc.co.uk/mounthood/mareschal.html

Notice: The king has a mustache and an axe. It also interesting they used the color green.  The Jack of Hearts also had a polearm but instead of a leaf; He had a dagger. It's neat the watch the evolution of the Jack of Hearts from a dagger to a leaf.  It's more interesting to watch the "Suicide King".  I feel sad for the jacks today.  I think  http://whiteknucklecards.com was correct in saying the Jacks are foot soldiers or squires.  In my second deck, I want weapons and armor and shields Oh my!!!!  Not the distorted Jack weapons we have today. And oh, everything is bigger in Texas!  My Texas royal flush has 5 face cards.  What do you got 3 courts and 2 pip cards...

[sprouts1115]

These cards were the next step that eventually became the Bicycle 808 series of today.  http://www.wopc.co.uk/history/1/2/3/4/5/6.html

They were made by C. Hewson in 1680. They did find some cards before this and the King of Hearts had an axe but this is the first image of the "Suicide KIng"   http://www.wopc.co.uk/cards/oldcards.html


Notice: This is before they used the Ace of Spades as the Tax Card.  Interesting he used the Knave of Clubs as his advertising  card.  They used all the colors equally and they did not correspond to a suit.  It looks like they basically tried to fill the court cards with a lot of color especially gold.  We see the first King of Clubs with an orb check out the cross.  The Queens have flowers and the Queen of Spades has a specter.  The Jacks have weapons and we know what they are.  Notice the Jack of Clubs has an arrow and Jack of Hearts has a sword and what looks like the hilt of the sword(center, right).  If you watch latter the hilt turns into a walking stick then into a leaf.  I think their conspiracy  theory  suxs.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU9WGyU4bnMthe (check out 22:10)  The hilt of the sword got distorted over time like the mustache on the King of Hearts.  Finally, the King of Hearts, This is the card that set this whole thing in motion for our modern 808 series, has what appears to be a sword sticking in his head.  If you look below the sword, you see two seals facing away from each other.  I believe that symbolizes a separate arm.  So, the "Suicide King" is in fact, the "Assassinated King"  That's why I gave the King of Hearts in this deck a mustache because I know what has been lost. 

[sprouts1115]

sneak peak at the new website.  Hearts will be on the top left. 

[xela]

Yeah Ashley and Tiffany are pretty nice...

May I ask who is doing the art for your deck?

[sprouts1115]

She is Vivian Friedel.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kt1YHdKFaI  (skip to 3:00)  I'm amazed how well she has interpreted my vision for the courts and pips.  She has a website coming soon.  I basically wanted to make the courts and pips as simple as possible to go along with the 808 series.  The Jokers are a sneak peek of want I want the 2nd and 3rd deck to be. 

[sprouts1115]

These cards are the next cards which were popular at this time like the Bicycle 808 series today.  I'm sure they they had different variations that did not survive today.  These are make by Gibson in 1769 - http://www.wopc.co.uk/uk/gibson/index.html

Notice: The new tax card Ace of Spades.  Look on the King of Hearts he has the seal on each arm and it's a bit more obvious.  The sword is still like a diamond stick shape. The Jack of Hearts still has a silver hilt on his sword. And then in 1775 it was Gibson & Gisborne....its gets better!

[sprouts1115]

The next line of cards that secedes Gibson is Joseph Hunt in 1801.  http://www.wopc.co.uk/uk/gibson/gibson-hunt.html

Notice the faces are getting very distorted.  The King of Hearts loss is mustache but the sword through his head looks like one.   Still only 6 Pence in tax

[Don Boyer]

The next line of cards that secedes Gibson is Joseph Hunt in 1801.  http://www.wopc.co.uk/uk/gibson/gibson-hunt.html

Notice the faces are getting very distorted.  The King of Hearts loss is mustache but the sword through his head looks like one.   Still only 6 Pence to buy this deck.

Please stop writing like a playing card authority if you don't know what you're talking about.  The six pence you mentioned wasn't the price of the deck - it was the additional duty charged by the Crown as a tax on playing cards.  You're reading the British equivalent of a tax stamp and mixing that up with being the sale price when it was new.  And you're copying the World of Playing Cards and acting as if you thoroughly researched the topic yourself when in reality you're simply parroting what someone else had to say on the subject.

If I want to see the World of Playing Cards, I know where to find it, thanks - no need to drag it here piece by piece.

[Rick Davidson]

Haha great thread

[sprouts1115]

http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=788 

I guess I'll stop with the history.  All I know if you change something is must be simpler and better then the original. Cards have been around for 600 years.  Only in the past 200 years has the ace ranked the highest card.  I wish to change the rank of the ace to when cards were first made and better yet since most of our games are based on 5 cards I wish the Royal Flush to be special.  You will see 5 court cards.  the ace and ten are pip cards.  If this deck is successful, I wish to make a second deck to where the (T) card is now the (T)ower card.  It's like a transitional card from the courts to the pips.  You may think this second deck is a chess deck.  There is some truth in that with the link above.  The Bishop and Cavalier are related to the Tarot Cards.  The Tarot Cards have Popes....

[xela]

So wtf do bishops and cavaliers have to do with Texas

[RandyButterfield]

Where have you been Sprouts?!!

I've actually missed reading your crazy comments!
Is your Deck finished up yet?

Thanks, Randy

[Don Boyer]

http://forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=788 

I guess I'll stop with the history.  All I know if you change something is must be simpler and better then the original. Cards have been around for 600 years.  Only in the past 200 years has the ace ranked the highest card.  I wish to change the rank of the ace to when cards were first made and better yet since most of our games are based on 5 cards I wish the Royal Flush to be special.  You will see 5 court cards.  the ace and ten are pip cards.  If this deck is successful, I wish to make a second deck to where the (T) card is now the (T)ower card.  It like a transitional card from the courts to the pips.  You may think this second deck is a chess deck.  There is some truth in that with the link above.  The Bishop and Cavalier are related to the Tarot Cards.  The Tarot Cards have Popes....

...and you plan on making them simpler and better - by making them more complicated, adding more cards than most games know what to do with?  Am I the only one who sees the gaping Grand-Canyon-of-a-hole in the logic of this?

Aces are already either high or low (or both, at times) depending on the game played.  So you want to make them low and stay low.  Not too complicated - yet...

Take the three, simple courts we all know and love - and add two more cards into the mix.  Aside from this one guy's post somewhere on the web, where on Earth do Bishops and Cavaliers appear in tarot decks?  There's a set of Knights and a set of Pages, which evolved from the Jack in the standard deck design.  And where the hell are Popes in a standard tarot deck??

And take the "T" card - what the hell is that, the 10 card, or yet another crazy invention of yours? - and make it into a Tower card.  WTF??

Not a single bit of this sounds in any way simpler or better than the original.  You could attempt to argue that better is in the eye of the beholder, but by no measure of "simpler" would your deck qualify.  At least your writing is marginally more coherent and has fewer misspellings.  Your only shot at success with this deck is to create a specific game for it, make it one of the best games ever created, and sell it as such - it will never replace the standard Anglo-American playing card deck.

Hey, good luck with all that.  You'll need it in spades, by the gross metric fuckton.

[Rick Davidson]

Still a great thread haha.  The mysterious T card.  It's great stuff Sprouts

[xela]

Sprouts is the greatest troll in history, yet we all love him for some reason.

[sprouts1115]

Alex -  Everything is bigger in Texas.  The Bishops and Cavaliers are just part of the "Texas Royal(King) Flush"

Don - Your right the 10 card will be the (T)ower card in the 2nd deck.  I guess you can call the Tower card a court card, but 6 court cards has already been done before.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visconti-Sforza_tarot_deck  It had King, (Queen, Male Knight, Female Knight, Male Page, Female Page)  Tell you secret in the casino game I'm making called "GoldKing"  it's like BlackJack and Spanish 21 .  I want to make 3 Tower cards of the same suit a special payout, but WizardofOdds is a bitch.  Seems I need at least $3000 for house odds...

RandyButterfield - It's about 85% done.  Want to start the Kickstarter when it's 100%.  Maybe 1st Dec.  When the 3rd and last revision of the back comes in.  Like in a month.  I would like to PM you another offer if your not too busy.  I'm going for an Illusion for the back and I know you could make it really pop...

Interesting poll going on in Theory 11.  I'm getting slammed.  http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?39840-New-Idea-for-a-64-card-deck

Sneak peek at Joker of Spades - Lawful Evil

[Don Boyer]

Alex -  Everything is bigger in Texas.  The Bishops and Cavaliers are just part of the "Texas Royal(King) Flush"

Everything - including the BS...

Don - Your right the 10 card will be the (T)ower card in the 2nd deck.  I guess you can call the Tower card a court card, but 6 court cards has already been done before.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visconti-Sforza_tarot_deck  It had King, (Queen, Male Knight, Female Knight, Male Page, Female Page)  Tell you secret in the casino game I'm making called "GoldKing"  it's like BlackJack and Spanish 21 .  I want to make 3 Tower cards of the same suit a special payout, but WizardofOdds is a bitch.  Seems I need at least $3000 for house odds...

You're comparing a tarot deck to a standard playing card deck.  D'oh!

Good luck with that casino deck - it's about all you have going for it.

Interesting poll going on in Theory 11.  I'm getting slammed.  http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?39840-New-Idea-for-a-64-card-deck

...and for good reason.  You're practically certifiable!  If I smacked you in the head with the common sense stick as hard as possible, it wouldn't even leave a scratch.

Sneak peek at Joker of Spades - Lawful Evil

Let me guess - you're trying to appeal to the Dungeons and Dragons crowd by giving your Jokers alignments?

I am SOOOOOO tempted to move this to the LOLAQ.  It would probably be the most intelligent thread there.  (If I deleted all the other threads, that is...)

[xela]

Sprouts you should join me in the Lolaq so we can discuss business.

[Leif]

I really like your persistence in making this deck. You're like a train, running at full speed along the tracks. Someone put some logs on the tracks, trying to stop you, but you just blast through them, blowing them to smithereens. They build a brick wall across the track, you run through that too, sending bricks flying. A group of people are standing on the tracks, waving signs above their heads You watch them throw themselves off the tracks just before the train kills them, signs flying in the air.
I really admire this kind of persistence, this never give up attitude. It is a trait of great people.

But sometimes you have to slow down enough to read the signs, and think about why people are trying to stop your train. It might be because they are jealous of your big, shiny train or they want you to fail in reaching your destination on time. In that case, blow that whistle, put more coal in the fire, and continue your journey.

But sometimes it's because you're heading towards a broken bridge. Please stop before that bridge.

The diamonds, the spades, and the jack of clubs doesn't show up in bigger size on your webpage.

[MrMollusk]

I really like your persistence in making this deck. You're like a train, running at full speed along the tracks. Someone put some logs on the tracks, trying to stop you, but you just blast through them, blowing them to smithereens. They build a brick wall across the track, you run through that too, sending bricks flying. A group of people are standing on the tracks, waving signs above their heads You watch them throw themselves off the tracks just before the train kills them, signs flying in the air.
I really admire this kind of persistence, this never give up attitude. It is a trait of great people.

But sometimes you have to slow down enough to read the signs, and think about why people are trying to stop your train. It might be because they are jealous of your big, shiny train or they want you to fail in reaching your destination on time. In that case, blow that whistle, put more coal in the fire, and continue your journey.

But sometimes it's because you're heading towards a broken bridge. Please stop before that bridge.

The diamonds, the spades, and the jack of clubs doesn't show up in bigger size on your webpage.

I think it's about time we gave up trying to get this train to switch tracks, and just get some popcorn, lay back, and watch it plow off the edge of Failure Gorge.

[Don Boyer]

I think it's about time we gave up trying to get this train to switch tracks, and just get some popcorn, lay back, and watch it plow off the edge of Failure Gorge.

There ain't nothin' like a front row seat to a train wreck!  I'll bring the soft drinks!  Who's getting the red Solo cups?  We'll need some ice, too, maybe some folding chairs...

[MrMollusk]

I think it's about time we gave up trying to get this train to switch tracks, and just get some popcorn, lay back, and watch it plow off the edge of Failure Gorge.

There ain't nothin' like a front row seat to a train wreck!  I'll bring the soft drinks!  Who's getting the red Solo cups?  We'll need some ice, too, maybe some folding chairs...

Got the red cups. 

[Don Boyer]

I think it's about time we gave up trying to get this train to switch tracks, and just get some popcorn, lay back, and watch it plow off the edge of Failure Gorge.

There ain't nothin' like a front row seat to a train wreck!  I'll bring the soft drinks!  Who's getting the red Solo cups?  We'll need some ice, too, maybe some folding chairs...

Got the red cups. 

I brought the soft drinks!  (And the not-so-soft ones, too!)

[Leif]

Heh, yeah, I think we've tried hard enough. It's not like nobody told him.  I'll bring the folding chairs... Umm... Eh... Why are there no decks with folding chairs on them?

[sprouts1115]

The train wretch is probably going to happen Dec 1st.  Hopefully, I'll have all my ducks in a row for the big spectacle.  Y'all have made me realize maybe I need to stress the other unique parts of the deck.  One would be, you can distinguish the cards at a distance.  In Texas Hold'em, especially in a 10 hand game the cards are hard to see.  I really need to get a demo deck done.  I would like to know how the 2 cards look when you peek at them from the felt and how many cards can you fan in your hand for other games.  If I bring enough to the table, you can always take out the Jokers, Bishops and Cavaliers to make a regular 52 card deck.  In history I find it interesting a 40 card deck was once more popular than a 52 card deck.  "Spanish Baraja is an ancient deck that existed in Spain since between the 14th-16th century.  It didn't have 10's, 9's, and 8's. The Rank was (King,Queen,Deputy Sheriff, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, A) = 40 cards".  Basically, this is 52 card deck just in a bigger package.   

[Don Boyer]

Heh, yeah, I think we've tried hard enough. It's not like nobody told him.  I'll bring the folding chairs... Umm... Eh... Why are there no decks with folding chairs on them?

Sometimes, you have to get creative...

[Leif]

Sometimes, you have to get creative...

Heh, I found some chairs made of playing cards too.

Back on topic. Wouldn't it be funny if, in five years time, everybody was using this 64 cards deck? That it became the new standard?

[Alex Willis]

Well if we are all going to sit around drinking whiskey and coke out of solo cups, we might as well play poker...Texas classic rules though!  Bishop walks the Cavalier Wild, One eyed snakes and Daisy Chains also wild.  No decks with less than 64 cards!!  I play the new way!  Bigger and better.

I will probably buy this deck!!  Seriously, i think it's funny.  I'll play snap with my kids and probably win for the first time ever.

It does put me in mind of a minimalist deck I'm trying to create.  I'll call it the Rhode Island Classic where everything is small.  There will only be 9 cards, even numbered only and with a T card and one Court Card.  I can't be bothered with card backs so those will be white.  However, I will have card clips!  Nice thick plastic ones.  Any takers?

[Don Boyer]

Back on topic. Wouldn't it be funny if, in five years time, everybody was using this 64 cards deck? That it became the new standard?

I think you substituted "freakishly bizarre and incredibly unlikely" for "funny" in that question...

Well if we are all going to sit around drinking whiskey and coke out of solo cups, we might as well play poker...Texas classic rules though!  Bishop walks the Cavalier Wild, One eyed snakes and Daisy Chains also wild.  No decks with less than 64 cards!!  I play the new way!  Bigger and better.

I will probably buy this deck!!  Seriously, i think it's funny.  I'll play snap with my kids and probably win for the first time ever.

It does put me in mind of a minimalist deck I'm trying to create.  I'll call it the Rhode Island Classic where everything is small.  There will only be 9 cards, even numbered only and with a T card and one Court Card.  I can't be bothered with card backs so those will be white.  However, I will have card clips!  Nice thick plastic ones.  Any takers?

Are Queens with nip slips wild?  Or just horny?    LOL

Go for a Washington, DC deck - only two cards, red and blue, with no actual values, just a bunch of suits...

Wait - would that be too "complicated"?  Would I have to add 500 more cards to make it "simple"?

[MrMollusk]

Back on topic. Wouldn't it be funny if, in five years time, everybody was using this 64 cards deck? That it became the new standard?

I think you substituted "freakishly bizarre and incredibly unlikely" for "funny" in that question...

Well if we are all going to sit around drinking whiskey and coke out of solo cups, we might as well play poker...Texas classic rules though!  Bishop walks the Cavalier Wild, One eyed snakes and Daisy Chains also wild.  No decks with less than 64 cards!!  I play the new way!  Bigger and better.

I will probably buy this deck!!  Seriously, i think it's funny.  I'll play snap with my kids and probably win for the first time ever.

It does put me in mind of a minimalist deck I'm trying to create.  I'll call it the Rhode Island Classic where everything is small.  There will only be 9 cards, even numbered only and with a T card and one Court Card.  I can't be bothered with card backs so those will be white.  However, I will have card clips!  Nice thick plastic ones.  Any takers?

Are Queens with nip slips wild?  Or just horny?    LOL

Go for a Washington, DC deck - only two cards, red and blue, with no actual values, just a bunch of suits...

Wait - would that be too "complicated"?  Would I have to add 500 more cards to make it "simple"?

You conformists both need to get on my level.
My cards can't even be accessed in physical form. Instead, you open the box, which is empty, and imagine the deck of cards.

Even as a beginner you can perform the most advanced card sleights in the business!

[Don Boyer]

Back on topic. Wouldn't it be funny if, in five years time, everybody was using this 64 cards deck? That it became the new standard?

I think you substituted "freakishly bizarre and incredibly unlikely" for "funny" in that question...

Well if we are all going to sit around drinking whiskey and coke out of solo cups, we might as well play poker...Texas classic rules though!  Bishop walks the Cavalier Wild, One eyed snakes and Daisy Chains also wild.  No decks with less than 64 cards!!  I play the new way!  Bigger and better.

I will probably buy this deck!!  Seriously, i think it's funny.  I'll play snap with my kids and probably win for the first time ever.

It does put me in mind of a minimalist deck I'm trying to create.  I'll call it the Rhode Island Classic where everything is small.  There will only be 9 cards, even numbered only and with a T card and one Court Card.  I can't be bothered with card backs so those will be white.  However, I will have card clips!  Nice thick plastic ones.  Any takers?

Are Queens with nip slips wild?  Or just horny?    LOL

Go for a Washington, DC deck - only two cards, red and blue, with no actual values, just a bunch of suits...

Wait - would that be too "complicated"?  Would I have to add 500 more cards to make it "simple"?

You conformists both need to get on my level.
My cards can't even be accessed in physical form. Instead, you open the box, which is empty, and imagine the deck of cards.

Even as a beginner you can perform the most advanced card sleights in the business!

Hey, I have one of those...it's called the Invisible Deck!  I often hand out one to my spectators.  The funniest part is when I ask them if they can "see" the cards and they say "Yes!"

...OK, so, we've been having a lot of fun here, but I have to be fair here.  If we did this on any other deck topic, I'd have reined this in many posts ago.  As crazy as it sounds, let's get back on topic here.  Though we could continue this in the LOLAQ...y'know, if anyone was still interested...

[Collector]

I run over the thread and have only one question. Who is less reasonable - the train rushing at full speed or people on railing trying to stop it?

p.s. nice custom artworks.

[Don Boyer]

I run over the thread and have only one question. Who is less reasonable - the train rushing at full speed or people on railing trying to stop it?

p.s. nice custom artworks.

Please note we are not on the rails, but are sitting off to the side in folding chairs, sipping drinks both soft and not-so-soft from red plastic cups, watching the spectacle unfold.  We gave up trying to stop it and are here solely to see the show, much like how select NASCAR fans watch the races just to see the incredible accidents.

Sorry for the tangent.  Carry on.

[sprouts1115]

Collector - When the 4 Jokers are done I would like to give them to ya to post.  She is currently putting a tapestry in the background...

Started a new thread on WizardofOdds.  It might be interesting to watch.   Anyone want to board the train?  Hoot, Hoot!  http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/math/15020-31-or/#post267434

[Don Boyer]

Collector - When the 4 Jokers are done I would like to give them to ya to post.  She is currently putting a tapestry in the background...

Started a new thread on WizardofOdds.  It might be interesting to watch.   Anyone want to board the train?  Hoot, Hoot!  http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/math/15020-31-or/#post267434

Well, here's your quote from that site - heaven help them for having to field your questions...

Suppose you had a game with 9 suits with 16 cards in each suit. The value of the suits are as followed : King (15), Queen (14), Bishop (13), Cavalier (12), Jack (11), Tower (10), 9 , 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, A, J(oker) The Joker is special it can be 0 , 8, or 16. Let say you had 3 decks for a total of 432 cards in play. Lets say your trying to reach the value of "31" So, (King + Joker) would be an automatic win.

My first question is : What are the standard amount of decks used in BlackJack nowadays? I know they use auto-shufflers now. Is it 8 decks for a total of 416 cards in play?... texasplayingcards.com

I kind of had a AH-HA moment. This is basically based on the old game of "Twenty-One" They had a deck of 40 cards. They did not have 10's, 9's, and 8's and value of the cards were as followed : King (10), Queen (9), Deputy Sheriff (, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, A The Ace was special it could be 1 or 11. That was truly a great game. King + Queen = 19.

I'm basically trying to make a game better than BlackJack. What are the most popular games in Casinos? Slots and BlackJack.

My second question is : What are the odds for getting 3 gold Towers (10) of the same suit?. The gold suit is the special odd ball suit in my 9 suits. It's the Trump suit. So, there are only 3 gold Towers in the 432 cards in play. It's kind of like being dealt the Ace of Spades and any other black jack (Jack of Clubs, Jack of Spades) and it gave you 10 to 1 on your money. I'm trying to figure out the best pay out for being dealt 3 golden towers... It's also sorta like being dealt three 7's in the same suit in Spanish 21.

In the future, I would like the casinos to open 3 of these decks and put all the cards in the auto-shuffler. What do they do now? Open 6 -8 decks and take out the filler and joker cards.

ODDS

The card exists three times in a randomized stack of 432 cards.  Assuming the cards are the first three cards from the stack...

The odds of getting the first one are 144:1.
The odds of getting the second one are 215.5:1.
The odds of getting the last one are 430:1.

My math in this area is rusty, but I think the overall odds are 13,343,760:1.  Mind you, the odds of drawing any one card in this proposed deck of yours three times from a three deck shoe in the manner described above would have exactly the same odds.

However, it would be foolish in the extreme to construct a game like this - that "three golden towers" hand would be almost equivalent to drawing three Aces of Hearts or Two of Clubs in a six-to-eight deck stack, except that rare event would be even easier to accomplish.  Assuming an eight-deck stack...

The odds of getting the first Two of Clubs would be 52:1.
The odds of getting the second would be approximately 59.3:1.
The odds of getting the third would be 69:1.
The odds of getting all three combined would be roughly 212,768.4:1.

The difference is roughly akin to (with your game) winning a lottery jackpot as opposed to (with a set of standard decks) winning second or third prize.  That, combined with the fact that hardly anyone would be bothered to even learn about your invented deck means this game would collect dust in the back corner somewhere while blackjack would remain front and center in pretty much any casino that was willing to take a chance on it.

HISTORY AND FALLACY

Your deck would make a fine novelty deck, like the Wizards game deck, but don't expect mainstream acceptance, as if this was somehow going to replace any of the existing deck standards already in existence.  They've been around for centuries while yours has been around for, what, a handful of months?  Printed playing cards started trickling down to the masses only in the latter half of the 19th century, but they did exist for many, many years prior as hand-painted objects used by the nobility, the knowledge of which filtering to the masses if not the actual cards.

Yes, the standard in casinos is to use an eight-deck shoe - but combine that with a built-in, as-you-go auto-shuffler and any attempts at counting cards are useless.  The new auto-shufflers shuffle the cards into the full stack rather than simply mixing the cards that have already passed and dropping them at the end of the shoe, meaning a card just dealt in the last hand can just as easily turn up in the next hand.

The game blackjack did indeed originate from the game twenty-one - but it originated in France, where the French called it vingt-et-un.  The French have ALWAYS used the standard 52-card deck (which actually originated in France) for playing vingt-et-un. The only other deck used by the French is the tarot deck. Not to be confused with the fortune-telling deck, the tarot deck is specifically for playing a card game called tarot and while it has the same general types of cards found in the fortune-telling deck, the designs are radically difference and the suits are the same as used in the 52-card deck, with the trump suit (the "Major Arcana in a fortune-telling deck) has no suit.  So, twenty-one or blackjack has only been played using the 52-card deck.  The only time anything even like blackjack has been played with fewer cards in a casino is the game Spanish 21, which uses a 48-card Spanish deck that has no 10-spot cards in it.  The concept of the Ace ever being more than one didn't come into existence until during the French Revolution - you should know this because you've written about it before, or were you simply plagiarizing another source without actually reading it?

FINAL COMMENTS

You seem to talk an awful lot about this deck.  Just make the damn thing already, or at least start the Kickstarter project for it.  Because until that happens, you're just blowing smoke...

[Ben Taylor]

There's already a game called 31.
http://www.bicyclecards.com/card-games/rule/thirty-one

[Don Boyer]

There's already a game called 31.
http://www.bicyclecards.com/card-games/rule/thirty-one

Yeah, but not only is that a "non-blackjack" type of game, it doesn't use his wacky playing cards with umpteen ranks and too many suits...

[sprouts1115]

Ben Taylor - That is true there is a game of 31, but this one is different.  The points for the Court Cards are as followed : King (15), Queen (14), Bishop (13), Cavalier (12), Jack (11), Tower (I0), 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, A, J(oker) 0, 8, or 16.  Don is right when he says  "Yeah, but not only is that a "non-blackjack" type of game, it doesn't use his wacky playing cards with umpteen ranks and too many suits..."  I have 9 suits, so that leaves 1 odd ball suit of gold.  I want to make it to where you win if you get 3 tower cards even if the dealer has 31.   I really want to make a special payout if you get 3 gold towers out of 432 cards. 

Don - I seems to get 3 gold towers is 430 : 1.  So it seems the payout should be 400 to 1.  Or if you had a $10 bet you should get $4000.  Is that right?  In a weird way I'm trying to make possible to win at 30.  3 gold towers is like 3 getting 7's in slots = 21. A harder question would be what would be the odds of getting 3 towers in any suit.  There are 27 towers in 3 decks....

This might mess with the house odds, but a dealer Joker is always 8 or 16 never 0.    In fact, if the dealer shows a joker in the hole cards.  That Joker is 16.  If the dealer is dealt (J,J).  The value would be 24 (16 + .  Which brings up an interesting fact.  Would the dealer have to stand at 24?   I know this is a hard question.  In regular blackjack the dealer stands at a soft17.   I thinking the dealer should stand at 25, so he should take another card if he got (J,J)...

Found an interesting article. http://www.wopc.co.uk/tarot/rider-waite/...... check out John William Waterhouse. Goggle the images. The expresstion on the faces is what I'm looking for in the 2nd deck. The Jokers in the 1st deck are a hint of what to expect the court cards to be in the 2nd deck...

Rider- Waite changed the way we see tarot cards today in 1909. "the sequence of the majors has been altered from the standard Marseille pattern by switching Justice and Strength."
List of standard Tarot before 1909. http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Tarot_de_Marseille......

If you dig deeper, the Tarots in order in 1470. It's the first known list of the majors http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Sermones_de_Ludo_Cum_Aliis    This is kind of like what I'm trying to do with this deck. Bring back the known history...   Link is Fixed.  Thanks Don!

[Don Boyer]

Don - I seems to get 3 gold towers is 430 : 1.  So it seems the payout should be 400 to 1.  Or if you had a $10 bet you should get $4000.  Is that right?  In a weird way I'm trying to make possible to win at 30.  3 gold towers is like 3 getting 7's in slots = 21. A harder question would be what would be the odds of getting 3 towers in any suit.  There are 27 towers in 3 decks....

Yeah, you would get that.  I won't even ask how, because your math is totally f**ked up.  The odds of choosing any ONE SPECIFIC CARD from a 432-card deck is 432:1 - how on Earth is it EASIER to get THREE specific cards?

If you dig deeper, the Tarots in order in 1470. It's the first known list of the majors http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Sermones ... _Cum_Aliis...... This is kind of like what I'm trying to do with this deck. Bring back the known history...

Hate to break it to you, but this page has a lot in common with your deck.  It doesn't exist.

Enough with the ersatz history lessons.  Either put up or shut up.  Make the deck already.  The beer's going to be warm by the time the train wreck happens...  You want to talk about a SECOND deck - finish the FIRST one first!

[Leif]

Enough with the ersatz history lessons.  Either put up or shut up.  Make the deck already.  The beer's going to be warm by the time the train wreck happens...  You want to talk about a SECOND deck - finish the FIRST one first!

Yeah, stop dilly-dallying and make this deck.

[ronyo_faukx]

This is one of the single, greatest threads I have ever read.

Take one illogical troll (Sprout) and pit him against a long-standing logical thinker (Don).

Personally, I'm waiting with bated breath to see this deck get made. These are the outcomes I forsee:

1) Sprout gets all these cards from USPCC and finds that he can't get 64 cards into the tuck boxes as predicted by his conscience, who I can only assume looks like a gypsy fortune-teller using a pool ball in place of a crystal one;

2) There is going to be a point when he's attempting to hurry through the process of rearranging the cards into boxes that he'll make a series of mistake which will result in some boxes having either less than 64 cards, or doubling up on some cards in place of others, e.g. 2 Jokers of Clubs, and no Bishop of Hearts;

3) My personal favourite. He somehow manages to shoehorn 64 cards into a Bicycle deck tuck box, only to find that not only can he not close the box, but also, he now cannot remove the cards as they are wedged in too much and he can't push them back out as the bottom is sealed.


Now accepting all bets.

[xela]

4) He turns into a mountain lion and haunts the fields of Tijuana, scaring children into thinking he is the Chupacabra

[MrMollusk]

This is one of the single, greatest threads I have ever read.

Take one illogical troll (Sprout) and pit him against a long-standing logical thinker (Don).

Personally, I'm waiting with bated breath to see this deck get made. These are the outcomes I forsee:

1) Sprout gets all these cards from USPCC and finds that he can't get 64 cards into the tuck boxes as predicted by his conscience, who I can only assume looks like a gypsy fortune-teller using a pool ball in place of a crystal one;

2) There is going to be a point when he's attempting to hurry through the process of rearranging the cards into boxes that he'll make a series of mistake which will result in some boxes having either less than 64 cards, or doubling up on some cards in place of others, e.g. 2 Jokers of Clubs, and no Bishop of Hearts;

3) My personal favourite. He somehow manages to shoehorn 64 cards into a Bicycle deck tuck box, only to find that not only can he not close the box, but also, he now cannot remove the cards as they are wedged in too much and he can't push them back out as the bottom is sealed.


Now accepting all bets.

You missed the one where the tension of 64 cards in one pack causes the packs to spontaneously explode upon arriving at his house, forcing him to repack every single deck from the mess of weird cards and ruined boxes.

He will inevitably fail, and contemplate the loss of $10,000 dollars over tear soaked cake and Everclear.

[Don Boyer]

This is one of the single, greatest threads I have ever read.

Take one illogical troll (Sprout) and pit him against a long-standing logical thinker (Don).

Personally, I'm waiting with bated breath to see this deck get made. These are the outcomes I forsee:

1) Sprout gets all these cards from USPCC and finds that he can't get 64 cards into the tuck boxes as predicted by his conscience, who I can only assume looks like a gypsy fortune-teller using a pool ball in place of a crystal one;

2) There is going to be a point when he's attempting to hurry through the process of rearranging the cards into boxes that he'll make a series of mistake which will result in some boxes having either less than 64 cards, or doubling up on some cards in place of others, e.g. 2 Jokers of Clubs, and no Bishop of Hearts;

3) My personal favourite. He somehow manages to shoehorn 64 cards into a Bicycle deck tuck box, only to find that not only can he not close the box, but also, he now cannot remove the cards as they are wedged in too much and he can't push them back out as the bottom is sealed.


Now accepting all bets.

You missed the one where the tension of 64 cards in one pack causes the packs to spontaneously explode upon arriving at his house, forcing him to repack every single deck from the mess of weird cards and ruined boxes.

He will inevitably fail, and contemplate the loss of $10,000 dollars over tear soaked cake and Everclear.

And of course, there's the one where they blow and suck so hard simultaneously, they create an exploding black hole, constantly pulling and pushing everything in the universe - and in the end, having no effect on anything or anyone whatsoever...

[MrMollusk]

Whoa. I just visited his Kickstarter preview.

What the dick is that $2 reward?

[Don Boyer]

Whoa. I just visited his Kickstarter preview.

What the dick is that $2 reward?

Ridiculous, it what it is...

[Alex Willis]

Whoa. I just visited his Kickstarter preview.

What the dick is that $2 reward?

I would have so gone for it if it were Aces and 8's, but Aces and Jokers... no thanks.  And what a waste of a USPCC tuck box than to flatten it as a firm protector.  What is he doing with the rest of the deck?  On the preview I get what he was doing on his main image with bullet riddled letters but he needed to make it more obvious, it just looks like bad pixelation.

I'll give him credit, he took special care in lining up the reward banners with the rewards themselves, that's pretty awesome, however you have to scroll way down to see what he's pitching.

[Nurul]

On the bright side, he's invented an entire new game called "64 card pick up" .....

EDIT: who am I kidding? There's no bright side to this abomination

Quote
Whoa. I just visited his Kickstarter preview.

What the dick is that $2 reward?

$3 for a signature?! Dafuq?! That's the first I've heard a creator on KS (or anywhere for that matter) charge for something to be signed!!

[ronyo_faukx]

On the bright side, he's invented an entire new game called "64 card pick up" .....

EDIT: who am I kidding? There's no bright side to this abomination

Of course there is, 64 cards burn longer than 52. 

Also, can someone translate the 'Cavalier' level pledge, it says it's limited to 100, but in the side bar it says '99 of 99' and the description underneath indicates that they will be numbered '2-100'. What happened to number #1?

Perhaps I should be the first to pledge that level, cos then I'd get number 2 of a shit deck. Herp herp! 

[Don Boyer]

On the bright side, he's invented an entire new game called "64 card pick up" .....

EDIT: who am I kidding? There's no bright side to this abomination

Of course there is, 64 cards burn longer than 52. 

Also, can someone translate the 'Cavalier' level pledge, it says it's limited to 100, but in the side bar it says '99 of 99' and the description underneath indicates that they will be numbered '2-100'. What happened to number #1?

Perhaps I should be the first to pledge that level, cos then I'd get number 2 of a shit deck. Herp herp! 

You're seeking logic where none exists...

[ronyo_faukx]

Of course. How silly of me. 

[Nurul]

On the bright side, he's invented an entire new game called "64 card pick up" .....

EDIT: who am I kidding? There's no bright side to this abomination

Of course there is, 64 cards burn longer than 52. 

Also, can someone translate the 'Cavalier' level pledge, it says it's limited to 100, but in the side bar it says '99 of 99' and the description underneath indicates that they will be numbered '2-100'. What happened to number #1?

Perhaps I should be the first to pledge that level, cos then I'd get number 2 of a shit deck. Herp herp! 

Lol in all fairness to him, his math is correct. #1 is at the $1000 pledge - never seen a pledge tier so high .. Maybe he was high when he created this ....

[Don Boyer]

Lol in all fairness to him, his math is correct. #1 is at the $1000 pledge - never seen a pledge tier so high .. Maybe he was high when he created this ....

Actually, high rewards aren't that uncommon.  I recall the Vortex deck had a reward for $5,000.  They're kind of "pie-in-the-sky" rewards.  Think of it like wishing - if you don't wish big, you won't get anything big.

[ronyo_faukx]

Lol in all fairness to him, his math is correct. #1 is at the $1000 pledge - never seen a pledge tier so high .. Maybe he was high when he created this ....

Actually, high rewards aren't that uncommon.  I recall the Vortex deck had a reward for $5,000.  They're kind of "pie-in-the-sky" rewards.  Think of it like wishing - if you don't wish big, you won't get anything big.

I think it's a little much when the top tier pledge is SOOOOO much higher than even the project goal. I think the 'Flip 52' project has a goal of $1000, but the top tier is $10,000. The 'prize' is to go and meet the team behind the project.

  Clearly someone thinks highly of themselves. I could fly to Las Vegas from Australia and do hookers and blow for a solid week for that much. 

[Don Boyer]

I think it's a little much when the top tier pledge is SOOOOO much higher than even the project goal. I think the 'Flip 52' project has a goal of $1000, but the top tier is $10,000. The 'prize' is to go and meet the team behind the project.

  Clearly someone thinks highly of themselves. I could fly to Las Vegas from Australia and do hookers and blow for a solid week for that much. 

There's nothing wrong with aiming beyond your target.  It's how many martial artists deliver an effective strike - aim not at your target, but at some unseeable, distant point BEYOND your target, so the power you deliver will go through your target.  If you aim only at your target, that's as far as you'll reach.  Woe be unto you if the target steps back beyond that reach!

[sprouts1115]

Alex Willis - That pic is probably going to change.  Yes, they are bullet holes.  In fact, I might have to put bullet holes in the "Texas" on the box.  Bicycle says it looks to much like their logo..

"Hi Russell!
This makes perfect sense now – thank you for explaining
We will work up all of your job all at once when we get all the files.
Q1-Q4 : we actually do Q1-Q3. Q1 is casino quality, Q2 is what we run most everything at and Q3 is for give away decks.
For the border width – if you could stay half way between the cut line and the dotted line on the die that would be ok for a thinner border all around. Watch the top and bottom art though because I noticed like on your spades the spade is past that top and bottom.
Your back card ideas will work fine, those are totally different than our Texan design back so that if fine there.
On the tuck though, legal is pushing back on the tuck not being Bicycle branded but looking like it is. This look will need to be changed to not look like Bicycle. Sorry about this but we push back on anyone that makes their tucks look like Bike without putting the actual Bike banner logo on it.
The text in the heart on the front panel of the tuck we would suggest making the font slightly bigger so that it prints clearly.
I have attached the seal template.
Thank you!!"

I still have the ace of Diamonds to give out for advertisement; It looks pretty boring...

[Don Boyer]

I've got to wonder what this entire project is going to cost you.  I'm looking at the numbers, and honestly, I question whether $15,000 is going to be enough for what you're planning on - 2,500-deck print run of 56 cards, plus a separate run of at least 313 sheets for the additional eight cards in each deck (assuming that USPC will allow such a tiny run, since they never have before), custom-made tuck boxes that will accommodate the oversized deck, AND shipping, handling and tchochkes.  $15,000 just doesn't look like enough - have you got hard numbers to add up for this thing, Russell, or are you just making them up off-the-cuff?  Assuming you did miraculously get funded, this could really blow up in your face if you haven't accounted for every little expensive detail here.  Be certain BEFORE you hit "Launch".

[sprouts1115]

Don - You're right.  It probably has to be at least $20,000.  Just to make sure.  I do have some hard numbers that are out of date(March).  Once all the cards get done and are submitted to USPCC, I'll be asking for a second quote.  I do know Bee Stock recently changed from .08 per deck to .10 per deck (minimum order of 5000).

Back in March I was quoted at $1.75 per deck.  The reason it's so cheap, I'm asking for plain white tuck boxes with no seal or cellophane.  The original plan was to order 5000 of uncut sheet #1 and 715 of uncut #2.  5100 / 8 = 637.5   715 decks just to make sure to cover the %10 + or - and have extra aces and jokers to give out.   Now USPCC will print a deck less than their 2500 minimum but it will cost you.  It would have been $6.22 per deck.  I think in a past response you made me realize it's better to just order 2500 decks of uncut sheet #2.  It's cheaper and leaves me with a lot of extra aces and jokers but with the potential of making (2500 *   20,000 decks for the first run.

5000 decks of uncut sheet #1:     $8750
2500 decks of uncut sheet #2:     $4375
5000 boxes to hold 64 cards:       $1900
custom seals:                                 $379  = $15,404

So basically,  that's $3.08 per deck which is not to far off a Bicycle branded deck.  I think it's higher now but it was $2.72 per deck (2500-5000 decks)  back in March.  It's like .75 extra for a Bicycle branded deck. 

I was thinking if I squeak by with the $15,000 goal my fluff items: T-shirt, Posters, Uncut Sheets would cushion the cost for shipping.  I don't expect to sell a lot of these people mainly want decks not fluff items.  Shipping is a monster and I still don't know all of it, but I was thinking $3.50 per deck for the cost of the deck and packaging + $4 for shipping + $3 for profit and .50 for any unseen costs and that's how I came up with $11 per deck back then. 

Also Don if this Kickstarter succeeds, PM your address and I'll give you 2 decks at my expense.  Your practically the only person who gives constructive criticism. 

Joker of Swords - Lawful Evil.   It's not entirely done I ask for the seals to be on the arms and the sleeves to be dark gold.  Sorta like in the earliest known King of Hearts.  I still think he was the Murdered King not the Suicide King and I would like the Joker to reflect that the Joker killed the King...

       
                                                   

 

[Don Boyer]

Also Don if this Kickstarter succeeds, PM your address and I'll give you 2 decks at my expense.  Your practically the only person who gives constructive criticism.

Don't neglect one very important detail.  The Postal Service is petitioning for, and will probably receive, a rate increase set to go in effect in late January of 2014.

[ronyo_faukx]

Also Don if this Kickstarter succeeds, PM your address and I'll give you 2 decks at my expense.  Your practically the only person who gives constructive criticism.

Don't neglect one very important detail.  The Postal Service is petitioning for, and will probably receive, a rate increase set to go in effect in late January of 2014.

Indeed. As such, you may want to adjust your postage costs by about 5% to account for it.

[sprouts1115]

Finally done.  Joker of Coins - Chaotic Good and Joker of Swords - Lawful Evil

[xela]

...Who is doing this artwork

[Sovereign]

This whole thread is amazing.
Sprouts, are USPCC going to be handling the collation of the 2 die cut sheets into 64 card decks? Does this affect their costs?
Also, what's the reasoning behind the disparity in the art style between the new cards ( C & B ) and the Jokers?

Phill

[ronyo_faukx]

...Who is doing this artwork

He said earlier it was an artist called Vivian Friedel.

Here's her site, and here are the cards: http://vivianf.daportfolio.com/gallery/544711#2

She only has the Joker of Staves, Joker of Swords and the Cavaliers of Hearts and Clubs posted, but there they are.

I think this is the first non-BS Sprout has come out with! 

[sprouts1115]

Sovereign - Back in June, Tiffany from the USPCC said they had a 3rd party tuck box manufacture in China who could make a box to hold 64 cards.  I was so excited, but that turned out not to be the case.  It's been awhile since I've contacted them and I'll ask again, but I'm probably going to go with http://www.boxprintingcompany.com/Playing_Card_Boxes.htm# They do embossing and foiling.  I'm only interested in the embossing as a stretch goal.  I'm trying to make the first run of these cards as special as possible.  What is probably going to happen is USPCC is going to send me all the cards in plain, white tuck boxes with no seal or cellophane and I have to put the cards in the box that holds 64 cards.  As for the disparity, I'm starting to reach out on social media and this might shed some light:

I've noticed Kickstarter projects have started to post your website on their projects. I wish to do the same. This project is not going to launch until Dec 1st, but I need to start looking at media outlets like what the Pendale project did. The artwork is 90% done. Vivian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kt1YHdKFaI(Fast forward to 2:55) and I are meeting this weekend and maybe the artwork will be 100%. The next step is to submit the artwork to USPCC for the second time. The current Jokers are are in the USPCC ghost zone. I'm planning on getting a demo deck done and redoing this cheesy video I did. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv8uhYpdzPg It will have the same message "The Ace is the key that unlocks the door to more face cards" I have already thought of the 2nd and 3rd deck The 3rd deck is the end game. I wish to make a game better than "BlackJack" instead of 21 your goal is 31. (K)ing 15, (Q)ueen 14, (B)ishop 13, (C)avalier 12, (J)ack, (T)ower 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, (A)ce, Joker(0 or 16). In the first deck, I'm trying to glorify the Bicycle 808 series cards; They are the standard of today. I'm adding a few new features. First, putting the rank of the card inside the suit. This has been done before. I think it needs a second look and adds more space for the artwork. http://www.wopc.co.uk/delarue/pigmy.html. Hopefully, this will be better when you sneak peek your cards from the felt. and second, putting more color in the courts to distinguish the card at a distance. This is mainly for new Texas Hold'em game I want to push. In this game, the Kings are now King. Pocket 22's now bet pocket AA's. The Jokers in the first deck are only a hint or tease of what I want to do with the second deck...

Texasplayingcards.com

[Sovereign]

What is probably going to happen is USPCC is going to send me all the cards in plain, white tuck boxes with no seal or cellophane and I have to put the cards in the box that holds 64 cards.

That's commitment to the project right there. I read this whole thread and think "Sprouts must be committed."

Phill

[ronyo_faukx]

What is probably going to happen is USPCC is going to send me all the cards in plain, white tuck boxes with no seal or cellophane and I have to put the cards in the box that holds 64 cards.

"Sprouts must be committed."

I agree. Where's the nearest mental institute?

[Don Boyer]

Guys, I gotta be fair here.  I've ribbed him about this project here enough times, but we now have a better place for that stuff - his LOLAQ topic!  Let's at least try not to poke too much fun at him here, OK?  It's no less a courtesy than I'd ask of others for your own deck projects, were you to post about them.

[kdklown]

I will say that Sprouts shows an overwhelming level of devotion to his project.  He has put a tremendous amount of preliminary work into this.  I am definitely in for one when the project rolls.  The artwork seems like it will be solid and even if I don't like the deck it's a guaranteed conversation piece for the backstory and extra cards.  Fight the power Sprouts, Don't let the man keep you down!   

[Sovereign]

Sprouts obviously believes in his project and I genuinely hope he confounds all nay sayers and storms it.

[sprouts1115]

Back of the card 3rd revision:  Looking for some criticism. 

[Don Boyer]

Back of the card 3rd revision:  Looking for some criticism.

It's kind of dark.  And still - why Texas?  Only the name ties that deck with anything to do with Texas...

[magnacat]

are you seriously going to line the entire border by repeating "texas playing cards .com" all the way around?? 
you already have the tuck mentioning the site... wouldn't an ad card be enough? of course, now that i think of it, you won't have any room for an ad card, will you? there are too many other strange cards packing the tuck to the point of an overflow...  though if your posts are any indication, you stick that site everywhere you find room- i'm sure the ace of spades most likely says "texaplayingcards.com" (and "f*ck blackjack, play gold king!") as well...
what is your real intention with the back design, btw, is there something in specific you are aiming for? it will be easier to help if you share your thoughts on this. my only thoughts right now have to do with how out of place the flags look, due to the otherwise monochromatic design. if you are dead set on including them, i think it would look better if you added some of the colors from the flags to the interior of the back. just my opinion...

[Anthony]

Ok, so I jumped into the "Latest Post" to see what was happening and ended up re-reading this entire thread because I could swear I missed somthing or someone switched decks or somthing....I'm no designer, but I have no idea how all the elements of this deck tie together............and now I have a headache. 

[Don Boyer]

Ok, so I jumped into the "Latest Post" to see what was happening and ended up re-reading this entire thread because I could swear I missed somthing or someone switched decks or somthing....I'm no designer, but I have no idea how all the elements of this deck tie together............and now I have a headache. 

Yeah, this topic does that to people.  It doesn't help that what was supposed to be one deck has somehow "sprouted" two more - and I have no idea what the differences are, because they've never been adequately described.

The software industry has a term for projects like this.  They call it "vaporware".  It's what they call software that so "soft", it only exists as a conference room full of hot air and nothing more.

[MrMollusk]

Ok, so I jumped into the "Latest Post" to see what was happening and ended up re-reading this entire thread because I could swear I missed somthing or someone switched decks or somthing....I'm no designer, but I have no idea how all the elements of this deck tie together............and now I have a headache. 

Sprouts is the embodiment of chaos. The son of Eris and Nyarlathotep.

His designs don't make sense and never will. They're impossible to control, so just let it go...

[kdklown]

Two points of order...

I visit this thread whenever things get heavy and I need a break from reality!

This thread is 6 pages long...  Sprouts wins!

[Don Boyer]

OK, guys, we've had a little fun - now let's get back to topic.  What did you guys think of that new deck back?

[Anthony]

Not diggin the flags, they just look "Plopped" on and don't tie into the design very well.......IMO

[Don Boyer]

Not diggin the flags, they just look "Plopped" on and don't tie into the design very well.......IMO

All that gray doesn't help matters.  And the design pattern is really sort of plain.

[sprouts1115]

Yea Don I think your right.  It's dark, grey and plain.  I think I'm wanting to much to soon.  I've been bouncing around an idea.  Since I'm using 4 colors for my suits Red, Dk Red, Purple, and Black and since I'm stressing the Jokers maybe I should use a Harlequin theme for the back.  Just keep it simple. No Texas star, no flag.  I think sometimes you just have to step back and look at the whole picture and the solution stares you in the face.  What do you think?

[Don Boyer]

Yea Don I think your right.  It's dark, grey and plain.  I think I'm wanting to much to soon.  I've been bouncing around an idea.  Since I'm using 4 colors for my suits Red, Dk Red, Purple, and Black and since I'm stressing the Jokers maybe I should use a Harlequin theme for the back.  Just keep it simple. No Texas star, no flag.  I think sometimes you just have to step back and look at the whole picture and the solution stares you in the face.  What do you think?

Bro - go SIMPLE.  A one-color back in a simple design akin to the classic designs would suit your deck best.  It's strange enough without you making it even stranger!  Let people adapt to your additional cards without having to mentally process a back that looks like Harley Quinn puked on it...  In fact, something like a Bee Diamond Back or the Arizona or California backs (originally Bicycle backs, now found on Dan and Dave's "US Regulation" Vintage Plaids) would be the ideal.  I think Diamond Back or similar.  Less to have to wrap one's mind around.

[sprouts1115]

Thought I would post what I'm doing. I talked to 14 box manufactures and got warm and fuzzy feelings from 3. I sent 2 Bee stock decks using https:// .gostorego.com to these box manufactures. I asked them to take 64 cards of the Bee stock and measure a box. I'm going to ask what are the specific  dimensions. I think it will be interesting to find out if they come up with different dimensions. All 3 of the manufactures can emboss and foil. I'm really just interested in the embossing as a possible stretch goal. The reason is I want to make the first run as unique as possible.

http://www.boxprintingcompany.com/Playing_Card_Boxes.htm
http://www.boxcoop.com
http://www.peekpackaging.com

I did talk to Bob Peek personally. He plays Texas Hold'em every Tuesday. His says I might have something. Maybe he might cut me a deal. I do know once you reach 10,000 boxes there is a substantial cost reduction. Hopeful thinking anyways.

This reminds me of Pensacola Florida. 6 months after the hurricane Dennis I wanted to get rid of 23 pine trees. I contacted 15 tree cutters and got 15 quotes ranging from $1500 to $6500. Never go with the highest or lowest bid. I went with a guy that charged me $2300. He tore up my yard with heavy machinery but that was fine. I also check to see if they have insurance. You would be amazed on how many people say let me get back to ya and never return your call...

Hopefully I'll get 3 boxes made and pick the best one for quality and price. I don't think the box sells the cards but it does help to have a nice box, but I am looking at an added expense of at least $3500 for 5000 boxes.

[sprouts1115]

sorry for the double post seems BM's site won't show up here.  I tried to fix it a number of times but it just won't work that is strange.   

[Don Boyer]

sorry for the double post seems BM's site won't show up here.  I tried to fix it a number of times but it just won't work that is strange.

For future reference, try using URL-shortening sites if you have trouble - I know Alex is working "under the hood" a little right now so the occasional anomaly might crop up.

Also, for future reference, you can actually delete your own posts.  You don't even have to ask anyone.  It is preferred, however, that you only delete a post that hasn't been replied to yet - if anyone posts after it, just leave it.

[sprouts1115]

So I went to the T-shirt vender today.      http://www.bigstarbranding.com/index.jsp  I wanted to pick out a good quality T-shirt that won't shrink the first time you wash it.  They usually only do a minimum of 12, but I she is going to make a prototype for me.  It's going to have 1 print on the front and one on the back.  On the back, It's  going to have a QR code.  If a cute girl is trying to scan your back you can turn around and say, "Are you trying to take a picture of my Butt"  She told me nobody has ever done QR code from their shop before.  I know most Kickstarters only sell at most 25 T-shirts.  It only get cheaper if you get 36.  I might be a walking billboard.  Next, I'll be trying to get a prototype of the poster.  I think it's important to have physical Fluff items.  I've noticed a lot of other Fluff items on Kickstarters are all digital.

[ronyo_faukx]

I think it's important to have physical Fluff items.  I've noticed a lot of other Fluff items on Kickstarters are all digital.

I agree, but alot of printers will only accept orders of a minimum amount. With T-shirts this can be 5 to 10, as the time and materials to set up and produce the items in such a small run can be very costly, and these costs are passed on to the customer (you).

As such, many people will make digital versions because if they don't sell, then they haven't had to shell out $100 for t-shirts noone wants.

I give t-shirts as an example (since this is what you are referring to), but this applies to all 'fluff' items be they dice, bookmarks, beer cosies, coins or laser-etched wooden boxes.

[sprouts1115]

Went the poster vender yesterday. I picked Satin Poster paper 7mil thickness. I need to beef up the tiff files so we can make the Jokers bigger. This one is only 220 dpi with medium size Jokers. I'm going to try to get it closer to 300 dpi. I'm banging around the idea of placing the Jokers in a white card die and having the surrounding background black to make them pop. I'm probably going to get a prototype done just to see. The poster itself will be the same size as an Uncut sheet from the USPCC. (21 ⅞" x 26 ⅜") I know I'll only sell 15 at the most, but I figure if I'm going to sell an art print it should be big and top notch.

Decided to add a coin to the Fluff items. Recently found out card coins were popular in the past as they are today. One side will have the Texas Star and the other will say "To secede is our right" with texasplayingcards.com thrown is somewhere. http://www.novanumismatics.com/numismatic-sketches/the-samuel-hart-playing-card-company-its-tokens/

[sprouts1115]

Also got the Soft proofs. Found some mistakes but this is where you need to find them. Not going to make any changes until Vivian and I get together this Sunday and really look at everything. Beside it takes 2 weeks to get the edited soft proofs back. Man that Ace of Diamonds looks naked.

[xela]

You know, if this was just a standard deck, I'd buy a pair of these.

[Don Boyer]

You know, if this was just a standard deck, I'd buy a pair of these.

Yeah, the faces aren't bad.  They're reminiscent of some UK designs in the days when the index was just coming into existence.  I'm betting that's where he got his inspiration from!

Now, about that card back...

[sprouts1115]

br?xis - Where the hell are the special charters?  What do you mean Alex there is a standard deck in there; just take out the Bishops, Cavaliers, and Jokers.  Then you got your 52 cards.  I suggested to Don you could use them as coasters or practice your card throwing.  Don is getting 2 decks.  He has giving me some good advice.  I bet if you whisper some sweet nothings to him he might give you one. 

I got the idea for the index here:  http://www.wopc.co.uk/delarue/pigmy.html

Here is cheese video I did about a year ago.  This was when I was looking for an artist:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQV0UW0BQPE

I haven't watched the video for awhile.  It kind neat to think what I was thinking at that time.  So much has changed...

Oh forgot to tell you the back will change.  It will probably be done during the Kickstarter.  It will be a vintage harlequin theme that bleeds out to the edge. 

[Don Boyer]

br?xis - Where the hell are the special charters?

What special charters are you talking about?  Alex didn't mention anything about special charters...

I bet if you whisper some sweet nothings to him he might give you one. 

No - he'd be much more likely to either get thrown over my shoulder or pinched in the ass, depending on my mood...

Oh forgot to tell you the back will change.  I will probably be done during the Kickstarter.  It will be a vintage harlequin theme that bleed out to the edge.

May I suggest keeping it SIMPLE for your first go at making a deck?  Use a thin white border.

[sprouts1115]

I Think I found my custom silver seal maker.  Since this the first time anyone has done a deck like this should I increase the number of special decks to 250.  Everyone seems to have a minimum.  I'm kind of stuck.  USPCC minimum quantity for custom stickers is 1000 and I want to sign and number a limited amount of decks.  I just don't want to get a cheap looking silver seal from another 3rd party vender.  Kickstarter says your middle reward should be your meat and potatoes reward and that is what I'm trying to do with the special deck.   

Anyone know the size of the Bicycle poker seal?  I've found lots of places to buy them but they don't list the size.  Found one source that said 23mm x 15mm.  Is that right? I just don't want to bother Tiffany with one question. 

[sprouts1115]

Well, I have to start somewhere. Like this Facebook page and someone will get 2 decks FREE at my shipping expense if the Kickstarter is successful. I need 30 likes to access the advanced options. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Texasplayingcardscom/205859476262038 I know it not as good as the Dale Mathis reward but its something. I think it's funny how Dale Mathis rewards have become a trend on other Kickstarters. badpete69 and his 2 scores.      I'll somehow randomize the likes and pick a winner.  Don you can't win you already have 2 decks, but you can like it if you want too.   

[MrMollusk]

The problem is that the tamper seals leave a sticky residue with the checkerboard pattern. A few days in your pocket after removing the seal will leave a grey, gunky square.

I just cut the seal on most decks for the same reason. But the stickiness is more evident with tamper seals.

And according to my measurements, a seal is more like 24X28.

[Don Boyer]

Why on Earth would you use tamper-evident seals?  They're playing cards, not gold bricks!  Just get plain old stickers, for cryin' out loud...

[xela]

I liked your page because you are a hilarious and tenacious dude. I don't agree with your execution on this, but if anyone deserves to get funded it's you man.

[steampunk]

I just discovered your thread here (maybe rediscovered - it's been a long week and I do remember seeing your video on Kickstarter previously) and liked your page on Facebook. I agree, you deserve to get funded, you're a cool cat.

[steampunk]

I'm still learning about cards, but I can give a little advice on some other stuff. First, I see you started this project almost a year ago. You should make sure you can renew your quote with the printing company if it expired - I know that USPCC is doing a price increase in January and other companies may as well, so it would be good for you to lock in your pricing. It's Christmas season too, so if you still plan to launch early (I wouldn't recommend it), then just expect that the printers may be less responsive than usual due to heavy holiday schedules.

Second, I'm not sure if this was covered in one of the old posts (I didn't notice it), but be very careful when pricing out your deck & funding goal. It took me many hours to come up with some spreadsheets to account for all of the costs (art, printing, set up fees, envelopes/mailers, postage, pick/pack unless you do it all yourself, promotion and other labor). I also personally had some out of budget stuff, like some advertising & press release syndication I wasn't planning for (a single PR will run you a few hundred bucks + the writing of it by a professional). I honestly don't know how some people on Kickstarter are able to price their decks as they do. I can see how artists can do that part themselves, and most people can pick/pack themselves, and people who are already established with a following can get a jumpstart on their campaigns. Anyway, be careful on that - being off by even a little bit can cost you thousands. One other thing I realized after launch was that there will be some transactions that fail - it seems to be over 3% so consider that when figuring out your goal.

Hope this helps.

[sprouts1115]

Hi Russell,
I noticed that your project has joined the Kicking It Forward campaign. While it's great that you're committing to support the Kickstarter community, the Kicking It Forward badge has led to some confusion with backers and other creators. We've been hearing from backers who are unsure what it means, and creators who feel pressured to include it without knowing much about it. People can't tell whether it's an official Kickstarter thing or not.

We don't want to stand in the way of a grassroots effort, but we're concerned this is causing more harm than good. So we're asking everyone who's participating to remove the badges and mentions from their projects and instead include a link to kickingitforward.org among your websites/links in the "About Me" section of your project. That way people can see you're a member of the community without mistaking it for an official Kickstarter program.

In addition, advertising for third-party services isn't allowed. Please remove the Prefundia badge and transfer it to a link in your About Me section, as well.

Best,
-Luke


Luke

I've checked out Kicking It Forward.  Seems like a legit company.  The only problem is I'm not a member of it.  Are you looking at the Kicktraq badge?  If so, I really want to keep it.  Kicktraq is a great little widget for me and backers to gauge the progress of the Kickstarter.  I will comply and take off the Prefundia badge.  I was trying to give them some exposer.  It's a good place for people to give you some feedback and check for misspellings before a Kickstarter launch.  Maybe you guys should have something like that.  Build a community around a community.

Also, I was wondering if you going to make your pledge manager more flexible in the future.  Same as early bird rewards, add-ons are becoming a standard and your current pledge manager makes it somewhat difficult.  I remember one time getting a questionnaire 20 lines long for a reward I backed.  You could put in text and numbers.  I bet that was hell for the guy trying to make the spreadsheet.  (No,Nein!,No.,no!,none,nit,Where am I?) I'm sure you heard of Backerkit.com and the soon to be Pledgemanger.com filling in the void. 

Lastly, I heard that when a backer cancels you ask why? But the Kickstarter creator doesn't receive that information.  What do you do with that information? Just curious.  If that is true then I have to write something like:  Sorry you canceled and I know Kickstarter asked you why, but I don't receive that information.  It would be helpful if I knew why to improve my Kickstarter. Thanks in advance.

[sprouts1115]

HI Russell,
Thanks for getting back to me. Sorry, I confused Kicktraq and Kicking It Forward. Too much going on here!

We're always working on improving our tools. I'll pass on your suggestions to the development team.

Also, please note that our guidelines state that bulk rewards (more than 10 of an item) are prohibited. However, we make an exception for playing card projects and allow up to 12 decks or one brick to be offered.

Let me know when you've updated your project and I'll take another look.

Best,
-Luke


All crap.  This guy is reminding me of some of the plumbing inspectors.  He finds something wrong. Fails me.  I fix what he wants. Comes back and finds another thing wrong and fails me again instead of looking at the whole project the first time.  I want to start off with "Thanks for answering my questions" and I definitely don't won't to mention there are currently some Kickstarters that are selling multiple bricks. Ahh, what to do.  Delays, Delays, Delays.

[sprouts1115]

My response:

Made the necessary changes to the King level: and Four of a Kind level: Also found a few misspellings and changed a bit of the text. Wanted to make sure the "Rewards" were within your policy guide lines before we made changes to the graphic images...


"Hi Russell,
Thanks for making those changes. Please note that our guidelines apply to add-ons as well, so you may only offer add-ons and rewards that total one brick per backer.

Best,
-Luke"

My response:

Things should be good to go. Made the necessary changes to meet your guild lines and changed the add-on sheet. Hopefully, you don't find anything else we have been going back and forth.
So is it true when a backer cancels that information doesn't get relayed to me. I sorta need to know. Is it a rumor? Thanks in advance.


I want him to admit Kickstarter has a flaw.  If you can guys, check out the preview and if you see any period or comma that is missing let me know.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2136246983/1960043680?token=6d6f5cb2

I still need 3 likes on my Facebook pages for a total of 30 to see utilities.  Weird though I only have 18 people that I can see that like the page.  When I see 30 people I've give out 2 decks if the Kickstarter is successful. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Texasplayingcardscom/205859476262038

[Sovereign]

I want him to admit Kickstarter has a flaw.

It's their game, you're the one who is asking to play. I found Kickstarter slow to respond and it was clear that I was one of thousands of people they had to deal with, but they weren't arsey - don't dedicate yourself to fixing their system, just jump through the hoops and use it to your advantage.

Good luck!

Phill

[sprouts1115]

Just to let you know I'm giving 24hr notice. Let the train crash begin on Dec 24th at 10Pm central. I know it's the worst possible time to start a Kickstarter. During the Holidays but what the Hey got to start somewhere. I'm off for a week and I can concentrate on getting the word out. I have a press release. I have accumulated 48 sites I wish to hit or pretty much spam.  Brent is feeling better and we are working on the calculator and tuck box design. I think Jackson Robison has set the standard with doing a calculator. I'm also going to adding shipping for Canada and to have an approximate weight of the package in the calculator.

Hi Russell,
Thanks for your patience. It looks like everything falls within our guidelines. That means that whenever you're ready, you can hit the green launch button and make your project live. There's no deadline to launch, though, so take your time.

Some last-minute tips before you launch:

* Visit Kickstarter School: http://www.kickstarter.com/help/school..
* Use the Preview button to see what your project will look like when it's live, and share it with friends for feedback.
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* If your project is successful, at the end of your funding report, you'll be given access to your backers' email addresses so you can contact them with survey for their rewards.

You'll do great! We can't wait to see your project live.

Best,
Luke

Important Reminder:
Our review process is not an exact science. When we find things that are objectionable, whether they were missed during review (we're sorry, but it happens!) or they were added after the fact, we remove projects from our site's browse functionality until they're fixed. In extreme cases, we remove the project altogether. That's unpleasant for everyone, so just be sure everything's within code before you launch.

Your project: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2136246983/1960043680?token=6d6f5cb2

[badpete69]

It's live

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2136246983/texas-playing-cards-where-pocket-kks-are-really-ki

[Rob Wright]

Russell, why would you not allow early birds to have add-ons?  Your restricting people who may want to give you more money.

[Don Boyer]

Russell, why would you not allow early birds to have add-ons?  Your restricting people who may want to give you more money.

The reason many designers restrict EBs to having no add-ons is that they're intended for people who genuinely find the cost of the deck to be out of their budget - it gives them a shot at getting one deck more affordably.  If you have the cash for add-ons, you have the cash to pay the normal price and let the deal go to someone else who needs it more.

EDIT: Russell, did you happen to notice that you MISSPELLED YOUR NAME in the video? 

EDIT: just noticed that Russ isn't even offering a full deck at the early bird level!  What the heck?  Just because you're going to be left with a heap of leftover aces and jokers, doesn't mean the entire world will beat a path to your door asking for them!

[Leif]

Go for it, and Good luck! After all your trials and tribulations with Luke from kickstarter, you deserve to succeed.

[sprouts1115]

Rob Wright - The early bird Pip Level: is basically a way for people to get 2 decks for $22 and to start the action going.  I know exactly what they are getting and I know exactly how to mail them.  For that, I'm willing to lower the price.  What is interesting.  I have to collect sales tax for people in Texas.  So basically, it more expensive for me for the people I want to create a fan base with.  I think Russell in his last deck had something like a $5 early bird and you could order as many decks as you liked.  I think that is where he got into trouble.    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1017676492/quicksilver-playing-card-deck?ref=card

Don Boyer - Yea I noticed that too.  Oh well, that's minor.  I was not there when the video of Vivian was made and what is major is her mentioning the  alignment  the Jokers.  I sorta wanted to keep that a secret.  I wanted the expressions of the Jokers to correlate to the Joker's alignment.  It may cause more questions, but when the second deck is made it will pan out.   The Joker Level:  is not really an early bird.  It's just something to get a backers foot in the door.  I will have a lot of extra Aces & Jokers and I've heard people collect them.  I figured it could be a good reward.  You get a little something and your part of the project.   

[Lukeout]

Hats off for creating something really unique. My day job is as an analog game designer and adding a few cards to each suit open up all sorts of options for new games (we should have talked earlier, I could have designed a few for your website/insert!).

I have to ask though. Why not let folks get just 1 deck? Is it because the fulfillment fee would chop in too deeply?

[Don Boyer]

Hats off for creating something really unique. My day job is as an analog game designer and adding a few cards to each suit open up all sorts of options for new games (we should have talked earlier, I could have designed a few for your website/insert!).

I have to ask though. Why not let folks get just 1 deck? Is it because the fulfillment fee would chop in too deeply?

In most deck projects, unless you charge too much to make it appealing, creators will usually lose money on one- and two-deck orders.  Perhaps he's trying to avoid some of those losses.

[sprouts1115]

Update of the Aces. This is probably final. I wanted to do something different. The AoS has long history and has some stigma to it (Vietnam). It first started as the tax card. You literally had to go to the tax office and pay a tax to get the AoS to complete your deck. Later on, it became somewhat like an ID card. I gave that card to Vivian. I said you can put anything you want on it and she did. If you can't make out the detail, which is on purpose that is a cat skull. Her website link is under the spade is http://haggardhare.com If you check out her website you might understand the card more.

In the AoH, the website needs to be updated, but if you look at the bottom. 01 001 2014 The 01 means the deck version. 001 means production run and of course the last number is the year. I think it's important to put the year down. USPCC coding system is obsolete. I will probably only make one run of the deck in 2014. If I make more the year will change to 2015 thus making the first run some what limited. I don't want to make a 1000 decks and put it in a box and say I will never print it again. I will be putting the year on both the AoH and on the box.

For far to long have we been trying to determine the date of a deck of cards by the tax stamp. Yes the tax was changed from the AoS to the stamp on the box. Love the history of cards. The tax stamp has changed to a plain sticker on the box. I find it interesting ppl are putting the limited numbers on the stickers i.e (1/1000) To me, the important thing on the box is the year the manufacture and maybe the stock and finish. Think about it. In a hundred years, what are future card collectors looking for? All that information should be on the box so they don't have to open the deck.

[Don Boyer]

USPC will not let you use 809 as your deck's model number.  It's in use already

Model numbers still in use at USPC for standard commonly-available decks:
7 - Streamline jumbo index
9 - Tally Ho (both backs)
11 - Streamline
21 - Streamline pinochle
44 - Bicycle Rider Back pinochle jumbo index
48 - Bicycle Rider Back pinochle
77 - Bee jumbo index
86 - Bicycle Rider Back bridge-sized
88 - Bicycle Rider Back jumbo index
92 - Bee (named after the year of initial release, 1892)
125 - Bicycle Rider Back "EZ See Lo-Vision"
807 - Bicycle Rider Back in classic box (AoS still labeled 808)
808 - Bicycle Rider Back in new "Standard" box
809 - Bicycle Mandolin Back
813 - Bicycle Maiden Back
914 - Aviator
917 - Aviator jumbo index
918 - Aviator pinochle
1201 - Hoyle
1202 - Hoyle jumbo index
1205 - Maverick
1206 - Maverick jumbo index
1211 - Hoyle pinochle

There's a lot more numbers for all the non-standard products, like Eco Edition, Pink Ribbon, Large Print, etc., but these are the decks you'd find typically selling in a "mom-and-pop" store, as opposed to a national chain with more buying power and a hankering for special design exclusives.

I thought you gave up on this deck, seeing as how it was the opposite of a rousing success on Kickstarter when you first introduced it.

Non-standard decks can sell, to be sure, but they're not an easy sell and can take years, not weeks, to develop an audience.  The Rook deck from Parker Brothers, issued just over 100 years ago, took a handful of years before it finally found an audience - it didn't hit the peak of its success until over 40 years after its introduction.  That deck succeeded over time because it was designed with a specific audience in mind - people who for moral or religious reasons don't use a standard deck of playing cards.  Who's your audience?  Be realistic about it, not "pie-in-the-sky".

No casino will introduce this deck on the gaming floor until you can produce accurate statistics on the house odds for any casino game you'd use them for - and that's no guarantee of success because they still have to decide to approve or reject the design, whether they like the odds presented, and their customers may or may not be open to trying a new game they're not familiar with, especially if it's more complex than what's already out there, just like yours is.

And none of this touches on the expense of getting a deck with over 56 cards printed.  You can go with a company that produces cards for board games and the like, as they have no standard quantity from game to game, but you'll also end up with cards of equivalent quality - and they're certainly not designed for their slip and glide.  Such cards are most likely to be made of cheap stock that won't faro even in the hands of the most skilled card sharp.

Why on Earth are you so concerned with the dating numbers on the Ace of Spades??  Your BOX will have a copyright date on it!  You're spending all this effort on a detail that's trivial compared to the other hurdles this deck will have to jump over if it stands a chance of getting made.

I still think you'd stand a far greater chance of success if you altered your designs to match the Bicycle Rider Back and USPC standard faces, only getting the extra cards printed.  You could drop them in a custom tuck box large enough to hold the extras and a full pack of Bikes - your product gets completed for a minimum of cost and in a design that's familiar with the entire North American continent and much of the rest of the world.

In fact, you wouldn't need a truly custom design for the box - USPC already makes boxes large enough for holding two decks, thanks to its game-specific two-deck sets for games like canasta, rummy, etc.  You'd only need to alter the art to suit your design.  If you have the extra cards printed with some game rules (either on a folded sheet of paper or on some extra cards), you could fill out a two-deck box rather nicely.

Forgive me if the solution seems too simple, but even you have to admit it would drop the cost of your design by thousands of dollars.  It would also make the cards easier for people to adopt because of the oh-so-familiar design, one that's been around for several decades - the back design is over 120 years old and the faces haven't changed much since the middle of the previous century.  If the face design was a person of the same age, it would soon be eligible for retirement benefits!  Lastly, you'd be able (with the company's approval, of course) to use the Bicycle brand name on your product, something that will automatically give it at least a small boost in sales.

[Leif]

Great to see you are still trying to get this done. However, I have to second Dons advice:
"I still think you'd stand a far greater chance of success if you altered your designs to match the Bicycle Rider Back and USPC standard faces, only getting the extra cards printed." 

The new court cards is already a stretch to get people to accept, no need to make it even more difficult with custom courts and pips and colors, especially if you are going to get the casinos on the train.

[sprouts1115]

Demo decks came in from the MPC.   There are still flaws in the Back of Card and Aces, but I'm still happy.   I finally have a working deck.  It holds 13 cards in one hand.  Which is ok, but in my second deck I wish to bubble the suits and make it 15 cards in one hand comfortable. 

[Don Boyer]

Demo decks came in from the MPC.   There are still flaws in the Back of Card and Aces, but I'm still happy.   I finally have a working deck.  It holds 13 cards in one hand.  Which is ok, but in my second deck I wish to bubble the suits and make it 15 cards in one hand comfortable.

Is it the deck that holds 13 cards, or you?  'Cause the last time I checked, decks don't really hold much of anything, though they're great at not holding things...  Though I guess if you put peanut butter or mashed potatoes on them, they'd hold those just fine...

For once, please start making sense, Russ.  "Bubble the suits?"  What the hell are you talking about?

[sprouts1115]

@Don - "Bubble the suits?"  The suits are slightly indented.  I tried to stay as close to the Bicycle 808 Series.  In the second deck, I wish to expand the pips.   You have giving me a lot of good advise.  I wish to give you a deck as a gift.  The first run will be MPC using Kickstarter.  A stretch goal could be EPCC, and the holy grail could be USPCC.  I do have a strategy for the USPCC. 

[sprouts1115]

I'm going to make 500 of these decks before the year is out.  I have already saved $2000 for the production order.  The full bleed back of card is fixed.  All the cards are done except the AoS.    I'm meeting with Vivian this Monday to finalize the cards.  I'm starting to work on the Kickstarter for promotion.   

In the second deck, you will have 5 court cards and the Ten pip will be a Tower or Castle card.  It will be a transitional card from the courts to the pips.  All the courts will look something like the Jokers in this deck. I'm looking for realism and expressions for the courts not the pompous faces we have now.

[sprouts1115]

Received the Demo Deck.  Playing with some pictures...

[sprouts1115]

The Aces turned out fuzzy. 

[sprouts1115]

I got a package today.  I just wanted to see an uncut sheet from Makeplayingcards.com  I found out they go with a 11 X 5 uncut for 55 cards.  So, EPCC and LPCC go with a 9 X 6 for 54 cards, and the holy grail of playing cards USPCC goes with a 8 x 7 uncut sheet for 56 cards. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhug0geedsgxs0a/2015-01-20%2016.17.37.jpg?dl=0

It seems they make cardboard circles and tape on the ends for a cap.   

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6mscjvn6ui56x5c/2015-01-20%2016.17.43.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7muolh2dlyijhvy/2015-01-20%2016.40.36.jpg?dl=0

[Don Boyer]

I got a package today.  I just wanted to see an uncut sheet from Makeplayingcards.com  I found out they go with a 11 X 5 uncut for 55 cards.  So, EPCC and LPCC go with a 9 X 6 for 54 cards, and the holy grail of playing cards USPCC goes with a 8 x 7 uncut sheet for 56 cards. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhug0geedsgxs0a/2015-01-20%2016.17.37.jpg?dl=0

It seems they make cardboard circles and tape on the ends for a cap.   

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6mscjvn6ui56x5c/2015-01-20%2016.17.43.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7muolh2dlyijhvy/2015-01-20%2016.40.36.jpg?dl=0

You might want to go over the design carefully - your T of Spades has ELEVEN spade pips on it, not ten...

[sprouts1115]

@Don you won a free deck.  I'll PM for your address. 

Received another package today from Makeplayingcards.com

https://www.dropbox.com/s/09dw6b4l7cdw8w1/2015-01-20%2016.37.25.jpg?dl=0

I ordered 100 decks and they gave me 101. I just want to stress have other ppl check your cards.  I didn't see that mistakes till early August and I know I must have looked at that 10oS a hundred time and didn't see it.  I was in a timeline for the 52+J convention. I wanted to make 20 demo decks.  It takes 15 days for MPC to ship out the cards and getting quick changes from Vivian is like pulling teeth also the back of card was "1-way" .  I figured hell if your going to screw up on a number card the best card is the 10 card.  More pips will just = 10. Lets get the decks and see if anyone says anything...

[Don Boyer]

@Don you won a free deck.  I'll PM for your address.

Thanks.  I'll check them out.

[sprouts1115]

We are Live.  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/russellcommon/joker-80t-playing-cards-texas-holdem-series?ref=category