Scopa Oscura redux [renamed Ombre Oscure]

[fireshaper]

I know my campaign still has a couple more hours but there's no way I'm going to make my goal. I'm not even to the halfway point. So, I've been taking some of the opinions and ideas that people have left and put them to good use - mainly changing how the deck looks. Since I still have an active campaign I'll just post the updated back design for now. Let me know what you guys think. First will be the old back, followed by the new one.

[Magasaki]

Not a fan of having text on the card back to be honest. Without the text I think it's moving in the right direction

[fireshaper]

I was a little leery of the text myself, but thought it needed something to fill the middle. Here's one without the text.

Edit: Did a little straightening up of the lines to make sure it was perfectly symmetrical, so uploaded an updated back design.

[Don Boyer]

I was a little leery of the text myself, but thought it needed something to fill the middle. Here's one without the text.

Edit: Did a little straightening up of the lines to make sure it was perfectly symmetrical, so uploaded an updated back design.

It's not necessary to fill every square inch of the back with something - it's much better without the writing.

You should focus your promotional efforts in places where people who are into such a game would congregate.  Sites for games in general, sites for the Italian or Italian-American communities, sites when people discuss the assorted custom decks of Europe and the games you play with them, etc.  You need to really push this deck in the right places to make enough headway for succeeding.

MPC isn't of the same general level of quality as USPC or EPCC et alia, but they also have much more affordable deck deals with exceptionally-short print runs at a decent level of quality suitable for playing.  To get this deck off the ground, consider publishing through them first just to get the deck out there and in people's hands.  I've seen people run successful campaigns with a goal of only $1,000 by using MPC and similar printers.  Get a hundred poker decks, custom front and back, it starts at $4.50 a deck - probably near $6 with custom seals and tuck boxes.

[fireshaper]

Thanks for the info, Don. I like the new back a lot better and without the text it makes it look even better.

Going the Italian-American/European deck route is something that I hadn't thought of before. I did post about my deck in the /r/italy page of Reddit and got mixed views from them, but I think, in the end, I did get a couple of backers from there (I do know an Italian last name when I see it on my backer list). I'll do some looking around for places like that, with users who would be more interested.

I was already going to use MPC for my deck since I was only expecting to sell around 500 decks. But your comment has me thinking about my final price. $1.5k instead of $3.5k might be a better way to go, in the end I still get my deck out there and my dream becomes a reality, I just have less decks in the wild, just half of what I was intending to make. I guess I need to let the demand drive me instead of hoping to get a certain number.

But, I do think that the next campaign will bring in more backers. I'll give you guys a sneak peek.

[fireshaper]

I've been working on the name of the deck (and a few other things) and made another friend in Italy. He actually backed my previous campaign and wants to help get this deck out there. So, I've kind of outsourced him for information straight from the source, hah! The first thing he brought up was that the decks of cards are mostly used for Briscola, not Scopa, and many tuck boxes have "Carte da Briscola" or "briscola cards" on them. Also, since I'm basing my deck on the Napoletane deck, he suggested that I put that on the box somewhere.

The name was the other thing we've talked about. Since Scopa wasn't a draw for the decks, I dropped it from the name, but I didn't want to just name it Oscura. According to my contact, "scuro" is a descriptive word, describing something as dark or black, and "oscura" is used like "obscure". I remembered what Don said and asked about "ombre oscure", going for something like "dark shadows". He liked it and said it was catchy in Italian, and I think it is in English as well.

So, I've worked on the tuck box and have a nice version of it to show. This is going to be for the "Francese" deck with the French suits on the cards.

[sprouts1115]

@firshaper - Nice improvement on the tuck.  Just remember the top of the box is important.  Most people store decks with only the tops exposed.  Nice to see you have a QR code on the bottom of the deck.  I see your missing something on your top flaps.  What do you want them to see when they first open the deck.  Tell a story.  The flaps should be your symbol of your deck.

[Don Boyer]

Don't worry about the flaps - they're too tiny to serve as a good place to say much of anything, and for a well-used deck they often wear at the fold and fall off anyway.  I get the feeling that you actually want people to play with this deck, so you don't need to cater to the collector crowd as much.

I think the dimensions of the uncut tuck are a bit short - the box looks squat.

The big "stamp" that says "Francese" - is that enough to let buyers know they're French-suited?

Consider doing something that USPC's been doing for a while.  When they switched from the "classic" box design to the "Standard" box, they changed the box back.  Instead of just displaying the back card, they displayed a few cards spread out with some ad text - but there was a visible card back among them.  It shows people exactly what to expect when they open your deck.  Another possibility is an innovation USPC tried in the latter years of the Cincinnati plant - show the box back as a diagonally-split image from top-right to bottom-left.  The top part can show a single card, preferably a spot card, and the bottom part can show the card back, giving people a clue as to what both sides look like in the largest way possible.

What page will you be pointing people to with the QR code - or will it simply have text encoded in it?

[fireshaper]

@firshaper - Nice improvement on the tuck.

Thanks!

I think the dimensions of the uncut tuck are a bit short - the box looks squat.

This is actually a cropped version of the official MPC file for their Poker tucks. I re-sized it slightly so that it would upload a little faster here.

The big "stamp" that says "Francese" - is that enough to let buyers know they're French-suited?

That's a good question. I would love to have these sold in stores and I can see how some people might not catch the meaning (unless they were in Italy). I like the idea of the diagonal cut on the back. I've seen this used before and I think it would work good on this tuck to show the difference in the Francese and Standard decks.

What page will you be pointing people to with the QR code - or will it simply have text encoded in it?

Currently, it's pointing to my site: http://mandrakecards.com

[fireshaper]

I took a few ideas from Don and another contributor and updated the tuck again. Let me know what you think.

[Don Boyer]

I took a few ideas from Don and another contributor and updated the tuck again. Let me know what you think.

Now this clearly indicates that the indices are French-suited while the pips in the card art are Napoletane-suited.  Should be no confusion there.  But consider using filled-in red pips in the indices.  It's going to look very close, perhaps too close, to the bright white of the "black" pips.  Red numbers would also help, but aren't completely necessary as this is a dual-use deck.

Why are you using such a dark, dark back?  Grey on black tends to more closely resemble an oil spill than a card back.  I thought the white line work from before was better.  Try this in white and see how it works.

Another possible idea - the indices could be dual-suited.  You could put a Napoletane suit pip to the right of the value, making the deck even easier to play with for people who like Briscola.  Either that or use the concept Chris O. is using on the design of his recently-completed Arcana deck campaign on KS.  There, he makes four indices - the "left" indices are French-suited, the "right" indices are Tarot-suited.  Four-index decks aren't as popular in the US, but to anyone familiar with Briscola, they'd be right at home using them - they're likely of European descent and familiar with the style.

[fireshaper]

Okay, here's the filled in pips. I just didn't know how I would like that with everything else white but they look alright like that.

Here's an updated tuck with the line work done in all white. I think that was a hold over from when I had the text in white on top of it. I don't need it to be gray now.

Also, I haven't seen many dual index decks and haven't heard of many outside of the new Arcana deck. If you can find some I would really like to have a look at them. I wasn't planning on doing anything like that since most Italian regional decks don't have any indices.

[Don Boyer]

Okay, here's the filled in pips. I just didn't know how I would like that with everything else white but they look alright like that.

Here's an updated tuck with the line work done in all white. I think that was a hold over from when I had the text in white on top of it. I don't need it to be gray now.

Also, I haven't seen many dual index decks and haven't heard of many outside of the new Arcana deck. If you can find some I would really like to have a look at them. I wasn't planning on doing anything like that since most Italian regional decks don't have any indices.

Tuck looks good.

I didn't think that the Briscola players would be familiar with indexed Briscola decks, but that as Europeans, odds are they've encountered multiple four-index packs of cards over the years.  The style is still very popular in France.  I was suggesting it simply as a way to let Briscola players have indices they can use, with their own "pips" instead of just the French ones.

Check out Encarded's Bicycle Deco packs.  Came in two colors, had four indices on them.  Same for the Whispering Imps Gamesters, a recently-completed KS project.  It really depends on whether you think it's an innovation whose time has come or if traditional design is more important to players than indices.  As a player, you could answer that far better than I ever could!

[fireshaper]

I didn't think that the Briscola players would be familiar with indexed Briscola decks, but that as Europeans, odds are they've encountered multiple four-index packs of cards over the years.  The style is still very popular in France.  I was suggesting it simply as a way to let Briscola players have indices they can use, with their own "pips" instead of just the French ones.

I think I'm going to keep this deck simple. Maybe on another one I will have four indices.

[fireshaper]

The Coins/Diamonds suit. This project will have a deck with the French suits and indices in the corner, using the pips/royalty from the Italian regional cards, and it will also have a standard Italian regional deck without the French suits and indices. This is the Coins/Diamonds suit from the Francese (French) deck.

[Don Boyer]

The Coins/Diamonds suit. This project will have a deck with the French suits and indices in the corner, using the pips/royalty from the Italian regional cards, and it will also have a standard Italian regional deck without the French suits and indices. This is the Coins/Diamonds suit from the Francese (French) deck.

The cards look great, but I'd advise against that font in the indices.  It's not as easily read.  "Non-cursive" typefaces tend to look better in a card index, in that they're easier to use.  Additionally, there a large variation in width with those values - a smart player could guess at the value of your cards based on how wide you have to space them apart in your hand...

You don't have to go all bog-standard, but the standard for commonly-used, non-custom decks is that the value is the same width as the suit and twice as tall, positioned above it.  Open a pack of Bikes or Bees and you'll notice this.  Even the two-character value "10" is the same width as all the single-character values.

Indices are at their most useful when they're quickly and easily understood, practically without even having to engage your mind.

[fireshaper]

The cards look great, but I'd advise against that font in the indices.  It's not as easily read.  "Non-cursive" typefaces tend to look better in a card index, in that they're easier to use.  Additionally, there a large variation in width with those values - a smart player could guess at the value of your cards based on how wide you have to space them apart in your hand...

You don't have to go all bog-standard, but the standard for commonly-used, non-custom decks is that the value is the same width as the suit and twice as tall, positioned above it.  Open a pack of Bikes or Bees and you'll notice this.  Even the two-character value "10" is the same width as all the single-character values.

Indices are at their most useful when they're quickly and easily understood, practically without even having to engage your mind.

I found a font based on the Bicycle indices but I wanted something a bit more artistic to fit with look. I'll play around with some non-cursive fonts that still have a more artistic look.

[Don Boyer]

The cards look great, but I'd advise against that font in the indices.  It's not as easily read.  "Non-cursive" typefaces tend to look better in a card index, in that they're easier to use.  Additionally, there a large variation in width with those values - a smart player could guess at the value of your cards based on how wide you have to space them apart in your hand...

You don't have to go all bog-standard, but the standard for commonly-used, non-custom decks is that the value is the same width as the suit and twice as tall, positioned above it.  Open a pack of Bikes or Bees and you'll notice this.  Even the two-character value "10" is the same width as all the single-character values.

Indices are at their most useful when they're quickly and easily understood, practically without even having to engage your mind.

I found a font based on the Bicycle indices but I wanted something a bit more artistic to fit with look. I'll play around with some non-cursive fonts that still have a more artistic look.

It need not be the USPC typeface, nor boring - it just needs to be easily read and adjustable in width, two very simple criteria.

Consider that other deck-makers have their own unique and attractive typefaces as well.  Two that come immediately to mind would be Arrco and Hoyle.

[fireshaper]

It need not be the USPC typeface, nor boring - it just needs to be easily read and adjustable in width, two very simple criteria.

Consider that other deck-makers have their own unique and attractive typefaces as well.  Two that come immediately to mind would be Arrco and Hoyle.

I like the font I'm using, so I made them the same width as the pips just to make them a little more standard.

[Don Boyer]

It need not be the USPC typeface, nor boring - it just needs to be easily read and adjustable in width, two very simple criteria.

Consider that other deck-makers have their own unique and attractive typefaces as well.  Two that come immediately to mind would be Arrco and Hoyle.

I like the font I'm using, so I made them the same width as the pips just to make them a little more standard.

It's an improvement.

Bear in mind, one shouldn't take every word I say blindly as if it were some kind of code for card design.  The sizing I mentioned because that's how standard decks handle it.  But not every deck wants to conform to the standard, especially when you're interpreting a non-International Standard deck into two different standards at once.  Art decks, unique all-custom faces, etc.  The point I'm trying to make is sure, there may be some "rules" about design, but it's perfectly fine to bend or even break them - but you really want a reason why, other than "I didn't know better," because that will show in the end result.  In your case, I like your compromise and it makes for neater-looking faces.

[fireshaper]

I'm having a couple of prototype decks printed, and I plan to send to a few YouTube reviewers to hopefully get more hype. I'll post as soon as I get them in.