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Playing Card Chat ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦ => Playing Card Plethora => Topic started by: HolyJJ on June 05, 2015, 05:16:35 PM
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This image is at the madisonpresents website:
(http://madisonpresents.com/SWE.jpg)
No other info has been released, at present.
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Haven't we already had several Erdanase decks already?
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Haven't we already had several Erdanase decks already?
CARC alone has released perhaps a dozen or more, in a few different formats. Most are Bee decks, though the most recent is his own from EPCC, with the portrait window displaying the face of MD Smith, the artist of the drawings in the Erdnase book. The best of the lot might have been the Bee Erdnase 216 - a copy of a long-extinct Bee design that's believed to have possibly been the cards used as the models for MD Smith's sketches.
Isn't that lovely - a Madison version of an Erdnase deck in a market that already has a lot of Erdnase decks and way too many Madison decks! If this deck isn't the best thing since the discovery of breathing, it's not likely to be warmly received, at least not around here.
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Can anyone tell me, what is so good about the erdnase deck??
I mean why are there so many of them out there?
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I'm in agreement with Don about the Bee Erdnase 216 decks -- they were very very good. Nice and thin, snappy, and had very good slip to them.
I think the Bee 216s are the best thing to have come out of USPCC in the past few years.
Hank, I guess that the fascination with Erdnase decks is pretty much down to the fact that Expert At the Card Table is "the bible of card cheating". Bill Kallush and the team at CARC definitely did full justice to the legend of Erdnase with their series of decks in his honour -- both the borderless Smith back decks, and the bordered Acorn back decks utilised the best Bee stock, and they handled as good as any USPCC decks could at the time.
I'm a big fan of EATC, and so even though CARC have already put out lots of SWE themed decks, I welcome the idea of more Erdnase decks from other sources such as Daniel Madison and Ellusionist.
DM is a bigtime Erdnase enthusiast, and his printing of EATC was pretty cool (it had a really a nice, glossy, green cover)... and so my expectations on Madison's SWE deck are pretty high.
I don't think it'll have the type detailed design elements that you'd expect from Randy Butterfield, Paul Carpenter, Jody Eklund, etc... instead, I think it's safe to assume that it'll stick to Madison's preferred style of minimalist design, and feature a fair bit of green. I think that's fine, as long as it looks classy.
The other thing I'd expect is a traditional cut -- after all, cards during Erdnase's time were traditionally cut. A modern/non-traditional cut would be a letdown in my eyes.
I'm personally looking forward to this one :)
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Can anyone tell me, what is so good about the erdnase deck??
I mean why are there so many of them out there?
The Erdnase decks aren't special because they're Erdnase decks. They're special because Bill Kalush had USPC manufacture them to very high standards. This would be the first Erdnase-based design I've seen that was made without Bill Kalush's involvement; all others were made for CARC by USPC, with the exception of the MD Smith #3 deck, which Bill made at Expert PCC. I think there were others involved in the making of the "Erdnaseum" deck, but even there, it was USPC-made and I'm pretty sure Bill had a hand in it. So all bets are off, as far as how good or bad a deck this new one from Madison (and presumably Ellusionist) will be.
I'm in agreement with Don about the Bee Erdnase 216 decks -- they were very very good. Nice and thin, snappy, and had very good slip to them.
I think the Bee 216s are the best thing to have come out of USPCC in the past few years.
Hank, I guess that the fascination with Erdnase decks is pretty much down to the fact that Expert At the Card Table is "the bible of card cheating". Bill Kallush and the team at CARC definitely did full justice to the legend of Erdnase with their series of decks in his honour -- both the borderless Smith back decks, and the bordered Acorn back decks utilised the best Bee stock, and they handled as good as any USPCC decks could at the time.
I'm a big fan of EATC, and so even though CARC have already put out lots of SWE themed decks, I welcome the idea of more Erdnase decks from other sources such as Daniel Madison and Ellusionist.
DM is a bigtime Erdnase enthusiast, and his printing of EATC was pretty cool (it had a really a nice, glossy, green cover)... and so my expectations on Madison's SWE deck are pretty high.
I don't think it'll have the type detailed design elements that you'd expect from Randy Butterfield, Paul Carpenter, Jody Eklund, etc... instead, I think it's safe to assume that it'll stick to Madison's preferred style of minimalist design, and feature a fair bit of green. I think that's fine, as long as it looks classy.
The other thing I'd expect is a traditional cut -- after all, cards during Erdnase's time were traditionally cut. A modern/non-traditional cut would be a letdown in my eyes.
I'm personally looking forward to this one :)
The 216s were some of USPC's best work in recent years - and they are what they are because of Bill Kalush's precise specifications for their manufacture. He told me once that they were about 85% of what he was aiming for - with the work he's doing at Expert being closer to 100%.
None of the Erdnase decks were elaborate, so I don't expect this one to be. In general, they were simple backs, predominantly with repeating patterns, and had faces based on a 100-year-old deck design - with the Kings altered to look like certain people. Kalush himself is on the King of Hearts, David Blaine is the King of Spades, and of the remaining two, I believe the Buck twins are on one of them and I don't know who's on the other.
Don't count on them being traditionally cut. Kalush insisted on traditionally-cut decks from USPC, but in general, they discourage customers from requesting them for the decks they produce. The excuse I he they were giving out was that the cutter they're using doesn't give a clean cut when the sheet is flipped - and really, that sounds like an excuse on par with "the dog ate my homework." I believe they simply didn't want to add the extra step to the manufacturing process, especially a larger run, since the step has to be performed manually (again, for reasons that are beyond me). I know personally of at least one instance where a deck producer was discouraged from getting his deck cut traditionally (face down).
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Don, would you say then Smith MD no.3 is made closer to 100% of what Bill Kalush is aiming for?
To what standard is he aiming for? is it the JN deck?
If I am not wrong D&D were involved in the Erdnaseum Deck, but I am not really liking it. Hence I haven't really tried other Erdnase Deck.
Seeing how you and Jesal actually speaking good things of 216, made me want to own at least 1 to try it out.
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Don, even I wouldn't bet my life on this new SWE deck being traditionally cut (after all, most Madison decks -- including Lions Den, which was DM's Casino deck) didn't have it. However, Madison's Private Reserve Rounders deck (with its print run of 2500) and the white Kings deck (which had a much larger print run) did feature a good ol' traditional cut... and so whilst chances do appear to be low, I wouldn't completely rule it out.
I do agree that the USPCC claim that traditional cutting doesn't produce as good results, is nothing more than BS brought about by laziness.
Don, would you say then Smith MD no.3 is made closer to 100% of what Bill Kalush is aiming for?
To what standard is he aiming for? is it the JN deck?
If I am not wrong D&D were involved in the Erdnaseum Deck, but I am not really liking it. Hence I haven't really tried other Erdnase Deck.
Seeing how you and Jesal actually speaking good things of 216, made me want to own at least 1 to try it out.
The intended feel of CARC's BEE 216 was deck was that of the original BEE deck from Erdnase's time... so it wasn't really the JN feel that they were after for that particular deck. The reason why the BEE 216 felt around 85% similar to the original was because in previous decades the coating was some sort of varnish that was applied to the cards... but these days, the coating and its application is totally different (Don has written about this quite a few times in the past year -- search through his posts, if you're interested brother). Therefore, the BEE 216 ended up being a little more slippery than the original.
As for the intended feel of EPCC's Master Finish decks... like Don, even I wouldn't be surprised if Bill K's end goal is to replicate the feel of the JNs. The exact same technology probably isn't around, because they used some rather strange chemicals in the 70s which may not be available today...
With the technology that LPCC and EPCC have available today, I think they can surpass JNs (in fact, I think they already have surpassed it). The diamond/master finish decks are as durable as cards get, and at present, the coating is quite incredible.
Try comparing the feel of Legends V1, Legends V2, Legends V3, and then something like the LUXX V2 -- in each progression, the paper thickness is different, and the coating has become slicker, and longer lasting. The improvement each time is awesome!
Going back to the topic, Ellusionist have never printed a mainstream deck (their gaff deck doesn't count!) outside of USPCC... and so sadly, this deck could end up with the usual BS combination of BEE + embossed finish + magic finish coating :(
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I own the 1902 Erdnase Black and Silver Acorn Backs both Cambric and Ivory. One of the best decks I've had the experience of owning. While CARC and (I believe) Dan and Dave produced Erdnase decks before, no one owns exclusive rights to being the only one that can share in there enjoyment of OR creation through inspiration of S.W.E. I'm fine with Madison creating his own deck. Glad to see its being done in Madison's own way by not reproducing art from the book or the EATCT's cover. As we know, that's been done. I'm looking forward to seeing what these will look like.
However, A fool will I be to pay a false "Kings Ransom" for one.
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For those that still haven't seen it, here's the card back design (taken from Instagram):
(http://s12.postimg.org/i8ppga7nx/inst10_Eatc.jpg)
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somehow that is very disappointing for me... :(
it looks like zero effort deck,,
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It's probably what most would say was "the usual" Madison style of card design -- having a mirrored logo within a white border (basically, the design style that the Wynn decks made famous, and was later brought back to mainstream by the Madison Rounders).
From all of the decks to recently use that particular design style, I actually like this one.
Unfortunately, I fully expect it to be USPCC... and so the usual crap USPCC (lack of) quality pretty much rules this out as a deck that I can stock up on and use. I may buy 2 or 3 for my collection though.
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It's probably what most would say was "the usual" Madison style of card design -- having a mirrored logo within a white border (basically, the design style that the Wynn decks made famous, and was later brought back to mainstream by the Madison Rounders).
From all of the decks to recently use that particular design style, I actually like this one.
Unfortunately, I fully expect it to be USPCC... and so the usual crap USPCC (lack of) quality pretty much rules this out as a deck that I can stock up on and use. I may buy 2 or 3 for my collection though.
I am not so fond of the casino style deck, and this one is just like the cover of the book. As if they had ran out of idea and make this deck.
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Now here's something I find really humorous. Picture this scenario: a magician buys this deck of cards. He whips it out for a performance. The spectator, a curious person, asks "What's 'The Expert at the Card Table?'" The magician tells him that it's an early book on magic and gambling sleight-of-hand techniques.
Don't you think that from that point forward, the spectator wouldn't be the slightest bit suspicious of that deck of cards, suspecting it to be a magic deck and not a "straight" deck? :))
As I see it, it's one of the dumbest ideas for a real magician's working deck. It's just for the collector, and collectors these days will hardly give a crap about a deck that's not at least a limited edition if not super-rare...
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Any guesses as to where you can find the video for the first clue? http://www.ellusionist.com/i-am-sw-erdnase.html
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Wasn't there already an Expert at the Card Table deck?
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The first clue is pretty easy:
http://www.ellusionist.com/1902.html
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The first clue is pretty easy:
http://www.ellusionist.com/1902.html
Ya know, I put http://elusionist.com/1902 without the html at the end, and was rejected, so I figured it couldn't be that.
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Wasn't there already an Expert at the Card Table deck?
I think it was CARC that made a deck with the same name, but for that deck, it was the box that looked like the book, while the card backs were reminiscent of a white-bordered Erdnase green Bee Diamond Back.
Even then, I thought it was a questionable idea, but at least that deck didn't say "Expert at the Card Table" on the back of every card.
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This deck really doesn't need to exist, and certainly doesn't need to be hyped. The theme has been done, more than once. Sigh. I have put more effort into the barely visible background pattern of a single card than this entire deck must have had.
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Ellusionist has the money and the fame from so many kids around the world. They can literally make a deck of cards with 2 lines in the back and sell out in the first 24hours. I really agree with Paul. Cero effort andto be honest seems like they're running of ideas.
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They aren't selling them. They are letting people buy them. ::)
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Ellusionist has the money and the fame from so many kids around the world. They can literally make a deck of cards with 2 lines in the back and sell out in the first 24hours. I really agree with Paul. Cero effort andto be honest seems like they're running of ideas.
What deck are you talking about with lines? I haven't seen it, I HAVE to have one!!
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For $6.95, it will likely be worth it. Now I just have to wait to get enough other decks to justify their massive shipping!
I have a dealer who ships me 20 decks for $6.95 and these guys are over $8 with 4 decks. I don't need anything that badly.
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In general, Ellusionist used to be a great brand for cards. Ever since the Madison series started, though, it's become pretty humdrum and boring. This deck is no exception - it's about as underwhelming as a deck gets for me. It's a shame that the same company that came up with the Arcane deck and the Artifice deck is producing this...
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In general, Ellusionist used to be a great brand for cards. Ever since the Madison series started, though, it's become pretty humdrum and boring. This deck is no exception - it's about as underwhelming as a deck gets for me. It's a shame that the same company that came up with the Arcane deck and the Artifice deck is producing this...
I think the people behind these great decks are no longer part of E. Lee, Jason, etc. And you're right, feels like E decks started going downhill eversince DM started his decks.
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In general, Ellusionist used to be a great brand for cards. Ever since the Madison series started, though, it's become pretty humdrum and boring. This deck is no exception - it's about as underwhelming as a deck gets for me. It's a shame that the same company that came up with the Arcane deck and the Artifice deck is producing this...
I think the people behind these great decks are no longer part of E. Lee, Jason, etc. And you're right, feels like E decks started going downhill eversince DM started his decks.
It's not just Ellusionist though. If this forum is any measure of the current industry, there's not much to get excited about. I think custom playing cards have hit the "last days of Amy Winehouse" stage. You still have those devoted fans that will support a company blindly but most of us know it's not what it used to be.
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In general, Ellusionist used to be a great brand for cards. Ever since the Madison series started, though, it's become pretty humdrum and boring. This deck is no exception - it's about as underwhelming as a deck gets for me. It's a shame that the same company that came up with the Arcane deck and the Artifice deck is producing this...
I think the people behind these great decks are no longer part of E. Lee, Jason, etc. And you're right, feels like E decks started going downhill eversince DM started his decks.
It's not just Ellusionist though. If this forum is any measure of the current industry, there's not much to get excited about. I think custom playing cards have hit the "last days of Amy Whitehouse" stage. You still have those devoted fans that will support a company blindly but most of us know it's not what it used to be.
I just think the bulk of quality is coming out independently right now. I think the T11s and D&Ds have been puting out less and less quality lately, but Uusi and Dead on Paper, and of course Kings Wild Project have been killing it at every turn. It's just an era of indy decks right now, I'm sure the big names will hit their stride again soon.
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Amy Winehouse.
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I just think the bulk of quality is coming out independently right now. I think the T11s and D&Ds have been puting out less and less quality lately, but Uusi and Dead on Paper, and of course Kings Wild Project have been killing it at every turn. It's just an era of indy decks right now, I'm sure the big names will hit their stride again soon.
Don't be so sure. Companies, even small ones, have an unfortunate tendency to move more slowly and cautiously the more employees they have. Even a small company like T11 or E has between a dozen and two dozen employees. If they were smart, they'd be recruiting some of the successful independent talent, but I've seen none of that happening. They're still trying to make it happen on their own, as if Kickstarter never existed. Magic tricks, they're still doing OK with - but cards? Nope.
If magic had the same revolution at KS that cards have, those guys would be out of business.
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Amy Winehouse.
Yes, her too! Lol
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"The must have deck of 2015"
um. just no.
"you guys almost crashed our servers buying them"
Maybe (singular) server?
"overwhelming response literally flooded social media"
Someone doesn't know what literally means.
Ellusionist marketing has been over the top sensationalist recently and it hasn't changed with this mediocre deck. I got mine yesterday (paid only shipping so at least it only cost very little). I think Ellusionist just doesn't care what they put out anymore because people buy their decks anyway. The back design is horrible. There's no effort anymore from them. The one cool thing about this deck is the tuckbox feels like a playing card. But otherwise, it's a poorly designed deck.
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So what is your trick for getting free cards?
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So what is your trick for getting free cards?
No trick, just a black club membership. I know it's not "free" but there's no extra cost above the membership which I have mainly for discounts.
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"The must have deck of 2015"
um. just no.
"you guys almost crashed our servers buying them"
Maybe (singular) server?
"overwhelming response literally flooded social media"
Someone doesn't know what literally means.
Ellusionist marketing has been over the top sensationalist recently and it hasn't changed with this mediocre deck. I got mine yesterday (paid only shipping so at least it only cost very little). I think Ellusionist just doesn't care what they put out anymore because people buy their decks anyway. The back design is horrible. There's no effort anymore from them. The one cool thing about this deck is the tuckbox feels like a playing card. But otherwise, it's a poorly designed deck.
It was precisely for this reason I dropped my Black Club membership when it came up for renewal. I'd been burned the previous year, not getting a lot of value for the money, and their free deck offer sounded ridiculous after having seen the blah and ho-hum decks they've been releasing recently. It was nowhere near enough to entice me to renew. I already have more magic than I know what to do with and never enough time to learn it all, so cards were the big draw for me - and they ended up serving not as an attractant, but as a repellant. Daniel Madison's a nice guy and all, and so's Peter McKinnon, but it's long past the time that they should get more fresh designs from newer designers.
For me, the nadir was the Hustlers (white borders on the sides - but not the top and bottom?) and the Prohibition series (I don't buy anything that promotes alcohol or tobacco, even though the specific brands were fictitious, and if I had kids, I wouldn't let them buy them, either). From there forward, for me, it was "Why bother?" They'd almost do better to focus on their magic and ditch the cards, but apparently there's enough fanboy enthusiasm out there that they're still selling them, because otherwise they wouldn't still be making them. Only fools and wealthy people looking for tax write-offs make items for sale that no one wants.
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Right then, I finally got to try out this deck -- I got myself a few, because I wanted to create some Negative-Stripper decks out of them.
First the positives:
(1) The deck is traditionally cut... therefore much better for the type of slights and table work that EATC was based on. However, I'm not sure whether all SWE decks are traditionally cut, or whether I just got lucky... oh well...
(2) Looks like USPCC printing precision has improved -- USPCC's signature "off by 2-3 millimetres for most cards" printing didn't seem to have affected by deck!
And then the negatives:
(1) The edges are still furry -- kind of like they've been cut with a saw. A blunt saw.
(2) The card stock and coating still sucks -- card is not durable at all, and when riffle shuffling, it feels like using a little more than a soft grip will cause nasty crimps.
(3) The back design is freakin' one way!! Urgh!! Had I known this, I'd not have made the purchase. I thought it was supposed to be a clean, no frills, and simple tribute to Erdnase... without any funny business.
The tuck has pretty much the same cardstock coating, and texture as all of Madison's logo decks, which is kind of cool in its own way.
As they are one way, I can't really use them... and so I'll keep one in my collection (after all, it's Erdnase stuff!), and try and eBay off the rest.
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Are you certain they're traditionally cut? As a general rule, not only does USPC not make custom decks with a traditional cut, but they actually discourage any customers that request them (except for casinos, apparently). The given reason is that the reverse cut makes the edge more ragged - but that has to be the most lame, scientifically unfounded excuse I've ever heard. Their standard, modern-cut decks aren't much better than ragged, either...
Right then, I finally got to try out this deck -- I got myself a few, because I wanted to create some Negative-Stripper decks out of them.
First the positives:
(1) The deck is traditionally cut... therefore much better for the type of slights and table work that EATC was based on. However, I'm not sure whether all SWE decks are traditionally cut, or whether I just got lucky... oh well...
(2) Looks like USPCC printing precision has improved -- USPCC's signature "off by 2-3 millimetres for most cards" printing didn't seem to have affected by deck!
And then the negatives:
(1) The edges are still furry -- kind of like they've been cut with a saw. A blunt saw.
(2) The card stock and coating still sucks -- card is not durable at all, and when riffle shuffling, it feels like using a little more than a soft grip will cause nasty crimps.
(3) The back design is freakin' one way!! Urgh!! Had I known this, I'd not have made the purchase. I thought it was supposed to be a clean, no frills, and simple tribute to Erdnase... without any funny business.
The tuck has pretty much the same cardstock coating, and texture as all of Madison's logo decks, which is kind of cool in its own way.
As they are one way, I can't really use them... and so I'll keep one in my collection (after all, it's Erdnase stuff!), and try and eBay off the rest.
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Hey Don.
There's probably only one person on the planet that is more picky than me about the direction of the cut... Richard Turner! If a deck isn't traditionally cut, then for me it's pretty much useless, and a waste of my time. Before even looking at the AoS, courts, or even the back design, the first thing I check for is the cut.
I know the direction of the cut just my running my finger along the card edge... but then for added certainty, I give the deck some interlace riffle shuffles. The SWE deck that I've got is definitely traditionally cut -- 150% confirmed.
I do however stress that the SWE deck I have got is traditionally cut... because that doesn't mean that every other deck is.
Erik Mana told me that even when you ask USPCC to traditionally cut cards, even then there is no guarantee that every single deck will be traditionally cut. I believe him because:
(1) The first (black) Madison Rounders deck I received was traditionally cut... but every other black Rounders deck I received had a modern cut.
(2) The Madison Rounders Private Reserve deck was said to be traditionally cut... but the one I opened was NOT.
Therefore, the deck I got may indeed be an anomoly.
Saying that though, some Ellusionist decks were consistently traditionally cut. For example, Sultan Republic, Executive, and most recently, the white Kings deck.
You're right about the USPCC excuse for discouraging traditional cutting being seriously lame. USPCC cutting sucks whichever direction they cut in. I think the true reason they don't like traditional cuts is because of the extra work (turning the sheets face down).
Anyway, the one way thing has pissed me off a fair bit. The deck would have been great for me as negative-strippers, had it been a proper two way design!
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(2) The card stock and coating still sucks -- card is not durable at all, and when riffle shuffling, it feels like using a little more than a soft grip will cause nasty crimps.
I don't know if this is true throughout, but the hand full of Madison decks I have all are very thin. One of my Dealers decks crimped a card after a shuffle, a riffle, and a cut. I can now cut to the king of spades whenever I want.
Pretty to look at; not for everyday use at all.
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Chas,
You're spot on about the Dealers. Although I am a fan of both Daniel Madison and full bleed repeating back designs, the Dealers are one of my least favourite decks for the reason that you've mentioned -- they're probably the least durable deck I've handled in years.
The Madison Rounders are considered to be relatively soft... but still, nowhere near as flimsy as the Dealers.
The Madison Private Reserve rounders are much better -- thicker and stiffer than the regular rounders. From what I remember, the Sleepers deck was also a thicker stock than DM's usual.
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Part of the issue regarding the stocks is that USPC isn't consistent from batch to batch with its stock, according to what I've been told from someone who's made a LOT of USPC decks. They no longer offer their stock by the industry standard of grams per square meter (gsm or g/m2), instead offering it by caliper thickness - and not a single, specific thickness, but a range of thickness between a minimum and maximum measurement. Bicycle is the thinner range, Bee Casino is the thicker range - and the two ranges OVERLAP, so a thick Bicycle paper stock might be thicker than a thin Bee Casino stock. Lovely, no? :))
I'm waiting for confirmation of this information - or to be more accurate, official information from USPC themselves as far as what they do and don't offer their customers. It's going to be in an upcoming article of CARD CULTURE Magazine. The July issue already has such an article that covers stocks from the Expert Playing Card Company. In the future, I'm hoping to do more reports with other manufacturers of a similar nature.
I know what you're talking about when it seems that some decks from a particular batch seem to be a face-down/traditional cut while others are a face-up/modern/standard cut - but the odds of it happening "accidentally" are slim to none. The ultra-sophisticated process by which the traditional cut is applied...is that some employee stands between the press and the cutter and manually flips over the sheets after they've left the press and before they reach the cutter. It takes longer, thus it costs more. I'm shocked there's no machine that does this, especially with the big upgrade to the new plant in '09, but there you have it...