You are Here:
[KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs

Author (Read 5251 times)

[KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« on: June 10, 2013, 09:23:57 AM »
 

nicknamehere

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • 14
    Posts
  • Reputation: 2
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2013, 10:06:32 AM »
 

Alex Willis

  • Discourse Royalty
  • *
  • 391
    Posts
  • Reputation: 13
  • A penny saved is worthless

  • Facebook:

  • Kickstarter:
A little ruff?   :P

I like the card back.  But I'm not a huge fan of pugs, especially when people dress up their pugs.

Alex Willis
Game Designer
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2013, 10:58:08 AM »
 

S. Carey

  • Forum Regular
  • *
  • 112
    Posts
  • Reputation: 15

  • Facebook:

  • Kickstarter:
I somewhat enjoy this. It is not something I will back right away but it made me chuckle and the illustration is playful.

The pips need some work as they are stretching to fit the pugs everywhere.
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2013, 11:31:00 AM »
 

Collector

  • Discourse Deity
  • *
  • 532
    Posts
  • Reputation: 23
  • I can be ironic, but I never outrage anyone.

  • Facebook:

  • Tumblr:

  • Twitter:
IMHO:

- The same back but with red and yellow colours from the tuck case;

- The full back design on the back of the tuck case – texts and advertising on the bottom part of the tuck case;

- Smaller indices on court cards with pips under them;

- Appropriate quantity of smaller custom pips on each number card in traditional or custom order (you pay the same price per each custom number card, you use the same design for them but you make them diversified);

- Lower prices and international shipping.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Life consists not in holding good cards, but in collecting beautiful ones" ~ PlayingCardCollector.net
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2013, 11:33:47 AM »
 

Loop Cuts

  • Elite Member
  • *
  • 169
    Posts
  • Reputation: 20

  • Facebook:

  • Kickstarter:

  • Twitter:
I'm totally bias because me and my wife love pugs.  I LOVE THIS DECK
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2013, 05:18:18 PM »
 

Rob Wright

  • 52 Plus Joker Member
  • Aficionado
  • *
  • 1,363
    Posts
  • Reputation: 98

  • Kickstarter:
When I first saw this on KS. I thought oh no, not another poorly done gimmick. After looking more closely, I have to say I really like this deck. Its not for everyone. I don't see magicians using this deck. For someone that just likes the art, and a well thought out concept. Its great. My favorite is the suicide king, with the bone in mouth.
Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died.

 Steven Wright
http://neverforgotten.storenvy.com
Facebook- Never Forgotten Project

My Playing Card DB
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2013, 12:25:15 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,172
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
The art: cute, aimed for the "kawaii" market.

The back: bad color choice.  I agree with Collector on this one.

The box: it's OK.  Not really an issue for me.

The design: terrible.  These are some of the least functional cards I've seen on Kickstarter because of the choices made regarding the indices.  And the spot cards are just plain lazy - one huge pip in the middle and call it a day?  Nope.

If the design were improved for functionality, this actually would, contrary to Rob Wright, make a good magician's deck.  Remember, Rob, some magicians do a lot of performances for children.  They eat this stuff up and ask for seconds.  I once did a show for a roomful of kids, about twenty of them; mostly nine-year-old girls.  I brought pink decks (the most recent Bicycle breast cancer charity deck) and "The Dog" decks as giveaways for them.  By an overwhelming margin they wanted "The Dog", big time.  If I was giving this deck out in the hospital, they'd be begging me for them.

I do get a kick out of the poker-hand labeling of their tiers, though.  Maybe it's a Seattle thing, ranking a straight below ace-high, two pair and three of a kind...  My guess: these guys don't play much poker...
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2013, 01:51:03 AM »
 

Rob Wright

  • 52 Plus Joker Member
  • Aficionado
  • *
  • 1,363
    Posts
  • Reputation: 98

  • Kickstarter:
The art: cute, aimed for the "kawaii" market.

The back: bad color choice.  I agree with Collector on this one.

The box: it's OK.  Not really an issue for me.

The design: terrible.  These are some of the least functional cards I've seen on Kickstarter because of the choices made regarding the indices.  And the spot cards are just plain lazy - one huge pip in the middle and call it a day?  Nope.

If the design were improved for functionality, this actually would, contrary to Rob Wright, make a good magician's deck.  Remember, Rob, some magicians do a lot of performances for children.  They eat this stuff up and ask for seconds.  I once did a show for a roomful of kids, about twenty of them; mostly nine-year-old girls.  I brought pink decks (the most recent Bicycle breast cancer charity deck) and "The Dog" decks as giveaways for them.  By an overwhelming margin they wanted "The Dog", big time.  If I was giving this deck out in the hospital, they'd be begging me for them.

I do get a kick out of the poker-hand labeling of their tiers, though.  Maybe it's a Seattle thing, ranking a straight below ace-high, two pair and three of a kind...  My guess: these guys don't play much poker...

I will agree on the back color- not a good shade of green. I went back and looked at the uncut sheet. The spot cards would be an easy fix. As far as functionality because of the indices. I'm not going to be playing poker with this kind of deck. Maybe war, or go fish. I'm not a magician, so I do not know how that effects you. Like you said. these would be a great giveaway for kids. Problem is $10 a deck as a giveaway is pretty tough.
Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died.

 Steven Wright
http://neverforgotten.storenvy.com
Facebook- Never Forgotten Project

My Playing Card DB
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2013, 05:00:56 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,172
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:

I will agree on the back color- not a good shade of green. I went back and looked at the uncut sheet. The spot cards would be an easy fix. As far as functionality because of the indices. I'm not going to be playing poker with this kind of deck. Maybe war, or go fish. I'm not a magician, so I do not know how that effects you. Like you said. these would be a great giveaway for kids. Problem is $10 a deck as a giveaway is pretty tough.

I was performing with them as well - they don't necessarily have to end up as giveaways.  Someone recently came out with a pair of decks - Bicycle "Fast 'N' Genious" and "Fake 'N' Genious" - geared for kids normally too young to get playing cards.  Interesting concept - one is a deck without values or traditional pips printed on them, just simple pictures that young kids can understand, while the other is a set of gaff cards made to work with the first deck.  It's easy for kids, say, under the age of five but old enough to count, to understand, but still allows a magician to do all kinds of traditional gaff card tricks.  The pair costs around $50, but if you work that kind of crowd, it's perfect.

Yes, the spot cards are an easy fix.  The question remains as to whether the designer thinks they're broken in the first place...  Yes, this is a terrible deck for poker, especially with the indices only "half-finished".  For magic, they're terrible - magicians often need people to recognize cards, but if most of them look the same at a glance, there's no differentiating them.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 02:20:29 PM »
 

PugFrog

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • 5
    Posts
  • Reputation: 0
  • Think off-center. ~George Carlin

  • DeviantArt:

  • Facebook:

  • Kickstarter:
Greetings!

My name is Damon.  I am one half of the group that designed the Pug Cards. 

We originally had the standard pip count for the spot cards, so it for sure was not a case of being lazy or taken easy way out.  We were attempting to make them a bit more whimsical, which seems to be a miscalculation on our part.  Oh well, plenty of time to make things right!

As you read this, I am taking your feedback seriously via updating a few things and, it would seem, bringing them up to standards.

Attached you will see the original color for the back of the card, red. Also, I like the like the Collector's point of using a color from the box (most likely the red).

Don Boyer - Thanks for the candid feedback; it helped bring home some points with the other designer I'm working with.

I'll toss some updates up here as soon as I have them ready, just to see if we are in the ballpark.

Thank you!
Damon

Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?
~ George Carlin
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 02:45:11 PM »
 

Rob Wright

  • 52 Plus Joker Member
  • Aficionado
  • *
  • 1,363
    Posts
  • Reputation: 98

  • Kickstarter:
Welcome aboard PugFrog. Some of the comments you read may seem a bit harsh, but you seem to be taking it the right way. I don't know shit, but a lot of these guys do. Any designer I have seen ask for help. They all have been willing to help. Good luck with your project.
Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died.

 Steven Wright
http://neverforgotten.storenvy.com
Facebook- Never Forgotten Project

My Playing Card DB
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 10:02:31 PM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,172
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:

Don Boyer - Thanks for the candid feedback; it helped bring home some points with the other designer I'm working with.

I'll toss some updates up here as soon as I have them ready, just to see if we are in the ballpark.

Thank you!
Damon

This sounds good, and thank you.

Taking advice is good - but don't let it compromise your overall vision.  Not every word written here - including by me - is printed in gold.  Take what you consider valuable, discard what you don't.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2013, 01:14:05 AM »
 

PugFrog

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • 5
    Posts
  • Reputation: 0
  • Think off-center. ~George Carlin

  • DeviantArt:

  • Facebook:

  • Kickstarter:
I'm use to filtering critiques, but the advice given were things that were niggling at the back of mind, so it really helped pulling in the trigger. 

The indices and spot cards will take a little more time, but let me know what you guys think of the pips: are they still too abstract?  I want the cards to be fun, yet playable :)  The 10 cards are work in progress...
Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?
~ George Carlin
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2013, 01:20:06 AM »
 

John B.

  • Don't you have work you should be doing? We are watching you.
  • Jack of Diamonds
  • *
  • 1,916
    Posts
  • Reputation: 49

  • YouTube:
The deck looks much better now. Not something that I would buy, just not my style, but I really like how it looks.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2013, 04:21:26 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,172
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
I'm use to filtering critiques, but the advice given were things that were niggling at the back of mind, so it really helped pulling in the trigger. 

The indices and spot cards will take a little more time, but let me know what you guys think of the pips: are they still too abstract?  I want the cards to be fun, yet playable :)  The 10 cards are work in progress...

It's a big step forward in functionality.

Now, you have to remember something.  In the States, Canada and much of the rest of the world, the majority of the people who will go for this deck will be children, with the next-largest category being female "kawaii" collectors.  The deck's a bit costly for children, so you need to focus on marketing to the kawaii community.  Third-largest would be people who love and/or own pug dogs, but I think that's a relatively small market to target in comparison - a lot of work to reach for a relatively small return on your efforts.

Some magicians may take note, particularly those who perform for children, but many find it simpler to just use the over-the-counter stuff from your local chain-store pharmacy or big-box retailer - especially when you factor in that more gaff cards and decks are made in the Bicycle Rider Back design than all others combined.  I see you're using a modified Maiden Back design - I actually like Maiden Backs (they were designed as a replacement for the Rider Backs for magicians wanting to edit the back design), but yours are adequately different that they bear just a passing resemblance to actual Maiden Backs.

Simply put - many of the collectors here will not care for your deck, except perhaps those who absolutely must own all decks with the Bicycle brand name on them - they may not even like it, but out of their desire for completeness of their collection, they will feel an obligation to get at least one or two packs.  But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't make it.  It just means you have to market heavily in areas where you're less likely to find traditional playing card collectors and more likely to find people who love all things cute and cuddly.  Websites where people (women in particular) enjoy talking about shoujo, bishonen or yaoi anime and manga would be a good place to start.

And in case you're not familiar with the Japanese terms:
kawaii = cute, but to a more extreme level in some cases - sort of like "hypercute", if such a word was real
shoujo = literally, "girl"; used to refer to stories written to appeal to girls and/or young women (this is sometimes spelled "shojo" in English, but the first "o" sound is longer than the second; it also sometimes appears with a bar above the first "o")
bishonen = "beautiful boy"; used to refer to stories (usually shoujo) with unusually attractive male characters
yaoi = masculine form of "gay"; refers to stories (usually bishonen) where the male characters become romantically involved or close enough to it through the use of sexual tension in the storyline.
anime = "animation"; used outside of Japan often to refer exclusively to Japanese animation.
manga = "comics";  used outside of Japan often to refer exclusively to comics drawn in a Japanese style, sometimes even when they aren't of Japanese origin.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 04:26:29 AM by Don Boyer »
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2013, 07:37:13 AM »
 

Alex Willis

  • Discourse Royalty
  • *
  • 391
    Posts
  • Reputation: 13
  • A penny saved is worthless

  • Facebook:

  • Kickstarter:
If I can ask, why is the goal so high?  Is the intent to pay for the art as well as the production of the deck?  Not that many decks don't reach that level, but your chances of success are far greater with a lower goal.  Even 'The Name of the Wind' only had $10K for their goal.
Alex Willis
Game Designer
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 12:15:18 PM »
 

PugFrog

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • 5
    Posts
  • Reputation: 0
  • Think off-center. ~George Carlin

  • DeviantArt:

  • Facebook:

  • Kickstarter:
If I can ask, why is the goal so high?  Is the intent to pay for the art as well as the production of the deck?  Not that many decks don't reach that level, but your chances of success are far greater with a lower goal.  Even 'The Name of the Wind' only had $10K for their goal.

At the time, I was basing it off of similar projects and also we went a little ape-s with the incentives :(  It's only been a few days, but I'm already thinking about restructuring things; decks and uncut sheets for the incentives (dumping a lot of the other things or, maybe use them as add ons).

Lots to digest!
Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?
~ George Carlin
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 12:40:43 PM »
 

Rob Wright

  • 52 Plus Joker Member
  • Aficionado
  • *
  • 1,363
    Posts
  • Reputation: 98

  • Kickstarter:
If I can ask, why is the goal so high?  Is the intent to pay for the art as well as the production of the deck?  Not that many decks don't reach that level, but your chances of success are far greater with a lower goal.  Even 'The Name of the Wind' only had $10K for their goal.

At the time, I was basing it off of similar projects and also we went a little ape-s with the incentives :(  It's only been a few days, but I'm already thinking about restructuring things; decks and uncut sheets for the incentives (dumping a lot of the other things or, maybe use them as add ons).

Lots to digest!

I may be saying something you already know. Albino Dragon can have a lower goal because they have the money in hand if needed. Heck, they could have done a $1,000 goal. So were does this leave you. If you have the cash lying around, and can wait to get it back over the next couple years(selling left over decks). Great, lower your goal down to $10k. If your like me. That isn't possible. With a possible overrun of 10% from USPCC, your branded decks could be close to $8,500. Then you have to add shipping and packaging. KS and Amazon want their piece to. By my best guestimate. $13-15k is the break even point just for the cards-no add ons. You have to figure out how much you can take on yourself.
Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died.

 Steven Wright
http://neverforgotten.storenvy.com
Facebook- Never Forgotten Project

My Playing Card DB
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 12:50:08 PM »
 

PugFrog

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • 5
    Posts
  • Reputation: 0
  • Think off-center. ~George Carlin

  • DeviantArt:

  • Facebook:

  • Kickstarter:
I may be saying something you already know. Albino Dragon can have a lower goal because they have the money in hand if needed. Heck, they could have done a $1,000 goal. So were does this leave you. If you have the cash lying around, and can wait to get it back over the next couple years(selling left over decks). Great, lower your goal down to $10k. If your like me. That isn't possible. With a possible overrun of 10% from USPCC, your branded decks could be close to $8,500. Then you have to add shipping and packaging. KS and Amazon want their piece to. By my best guestimate. $13-15k is the break even point just for the cards-no add ons. You have to figure out how much you can take on yourself.

Yeah, that's the dilemma and your numbers are right on the mark.

Our hope?  To make a little bit for our efforts and that is the case for the majority of people running KSs, or at least that's what I imagine. 

We will see how things shake out and come back at it again, if it doesn't get funded :)
Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?
~ George Carlin
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 02:50:23 PM »
 

Alex Willis

  • Discourse Royalty
  • *
  • 391
    Posts
  • Reputation: 13
  • A penny saved is worthless

  • Facebook:

  • Kickstarter:
If I can ask, why is the goal so high?  Is the intent to pay for the art as well as the production of the deck?  Not that many decks don't reach that level, but your chances of success are far greater with a lower goal.  Even 'The Name of the Wind' only had $10K for their goal.

At the time, I was basing it off of similar projects and also we went a little ape-s with the incentives :(  It's only been a few days, but I'm already thinking about restructuring things; decks and uncut sheets for the incentives (dumping a lot of the other things or, maybe use them as add ons).

Lots to digest!

I may be saying something you already know. Albino Dragon can have a lower goal because they have the money in hand if needed. Heck, they could have done a $1,000 goal. So were does this leave you. If you have the cash lying around, and can wait to get it back over the next couple years(selling left over decks). Great, lower your goal down to $10k. If your like me. That isn't possible. With a possible overrun of 10% from USPCC, your branded decks could be close to $8,500. Then you have to add shipping and packaging. KS and Amazon want their piece to. By my best guestimate. $13-15k is the break even point just for the cards-no add ons. You have to figure out how much you can take on yourself.

I believe the cost with USPCC is closer to $6,500, but given the overrun let's say $7,200 plus shipping..I'd still estimate at $10K.  If you do the art yourself and handle the fulfillment.  But yes, i'd agree, the return on investment and any profit will come from the aftermarket sale.  You need to have a strategy to "unload" the additional decks from the initial run.  Of course the hope is always to make up your cost and consume some of the initial run through pledges and perhaps even make a little profit, and some people set their goal with that assumption.  I realize that not everyone have available working capital to fund the overages and to take the risk of not being able to unload the extra decks, and that's what eventually separates the successful and unsuccessful designers.  I am fortunate enough to have a separate business behind me to fund my projects if I go in the red.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 02:54:16 PM by ManMadeGames »
Alex Willis
Game Designer
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2013, 08:49:09 PM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,172
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
The big question I have is "How can you guys even talk about the cost of a print run when you haven't even mentioned the SIZE of the print run?"  A 2,500-deck run can indeed be done on the cheap for $10K - some have done it for less.  And without the benefit of outside funds from other projects, as well.

A better way to structure a project would be to make feature upgrades as stretch goals.  Add-ons, too.

One potential structure for a given random deck could be:
$X: goal is reached
$X + $: art prints as add-ons
$X + $$: t-shirts as add-ons
$X + $$$: new feature - custom deck seal
$X + $$$$: new feature - metallic foil on box
$X + $$$$$: card guards as add-ons
$X + $$$$$$: new feature(s) - upgraded paper stock and/or metallic inks
$X + $$$$$$$: poker chips as add-ons
$X + $$$$$$$$: every reward tier above tier #Y gets a bonus deck
etc.

A reward structure like that allows the upgrades and add-ons to grow organically with the project, allowing you to control costs based on the project's degree of success.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2013, 12:43:26 AM »
 

Rob Wright

  • 52 Plus Joker Member
  • Aficionado
  • *
  • 1,363
    Posts
  • Reputation: 98

  • Kickstarter:
My quick confusing math.
Everybody knows that USPCC's minimum run is 2500 decks w/ a possible10% overrun (that has to be accounted for)= 2750 possible decks.
Quote I received from USPCC for branded decks-delivered to the East Coast. $2.72 each X 2750= $7480 + $870 set up fee = $8350 possible to USPCC

I may be going a little high on shipping. US shipping for 1 deck/w cost of shipping material is about $2.60 first class. Most shipments will be more than 1 deck. I'm estimating about $2.20 per deck to ship average

Now some backwards math.
$10 per deck average pledge - $1 for KS & Amazon - $2.20 shipping = $6.80 per deck sold to pay USPCC

$8350 / $6.80 =1228 decks minimum needed sold.

Now forward math
1228 decks x $10.00 = $12,280 absolute minimal goal if you cannot afford to take money out of your pocket. That is if nothing goes wrong and USPCC does not charge any additional art fees(@ $75 per hour). I believe a sample deck from them is $450. $250 if you want proof sheets/tuck only. And after all that. I forgot about my state sales tax(5%) that will be charged by USPCC, because I do not have a resale cert. So there goes another $400 or so.


Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died.

 Steven Wright
http://neverforgotten.storenvy.com
Facebook- Never Forgotten Project

My Playing Card DB
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2013, 08:01:59 AM »
 

Alex Willis

  • Discourse Royalty
  • *
  • 391
    Posts
  • Reputation: 13
  • A penny saved is worthless

  • Facebook:

  • Kickstarter:
My quick confusing math.
Everybody knows that USPCC's minimum run is 2500 decks w/ a possible10% overrun (that has to be accounted for)= 2750 possible decks.
Quote I received from USPCC for branded decks-delivered to the East Coast. $2.72 each X 2750= $7480 + $870 set up fee = $8350 possible to USPCC

I may be going a little high on shipping. US shipping for 1 deck/w cost of shipping material is about $2.60 first class. Most shipments will be more than 1 deck. I'm estimating about $2.20 per deck to ship average

Now some backwards math.
$10 per deck average pledge - $1 for KS & Amazon - $2.20 shipping = $6.80 per deck sold to pay USPCC

$8350 / $6.80 =1228 decks minimum needed sold.

Now forward math
1228 decks x $10.00 = $12,280 absolute minimal goal if you cannot afford to take money out of your pocket. That is if nothing goes wrong and USPCC does not charge any additional art fees(@ $75 per hour). I believe a sample deck from them is $450. $250 if you want proof sheets/tuck only. And after all that. I forgot about my state sales tax(5%) that will be charged by USPCC, because I do not have a resale cert. So there goes another $400 or so.

Good math, but that assumes one deck per shipping customer.  On average it's normally 2 decks per customer.  I also don't understand where USPCC generates there quotes from, my last quote was $1.84 per deck plus set up fees and shipping.  Also, I pay $125 every 5 years for my resale cert which is worth the money, you may want to consider incoporating and getting one of those.  In PA the tax payment process isn't so bad and it's all done electronically.
Alex Willis
Game Designer
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2013, 09:18:37 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,172
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
My quick confusing math.
Everybody knows that USPCC's minimum run is 2500 decks w/ a possible10% overrun (that has to be accounted for)= 2750 possible decks.
Quote I received from USPCC for branded decks-delivered to the East Coast. $2.72 each X 2750= $7480 + $870 set up fee = $8350 possible to USPCC

I may be going a little high on shipping. US shipping for 1 deck/w cost of shipping material is about $2.60 first class. Most shipments will be more than 1 deck. I'm estimating about $2.20 per deck to ship average

Now some backwards math.
$10 per deck average pledge - $1 for KS & Amazon - $2.20 shipping = $6.80 per deck sold to pay USPCC

$8350 / $6.80 =1228 decks minimum needed sold.

Now forward math
1228 decks x $10.00 = $12,280 absolute minimal goal if you cannot afford to take money out of your pocket. That is if nothing goes wrong and USPCC does not charge any additional art fees(@ $75 per hour). I believe a sample deck from them is $450. $250 if you want proof sheets/tuck only. And after all that. I forgot about my state sales tax(5%) that will be charged by USPCC, because I do not have a resale cert. So there goes another $400 or so.

Good math, but that assumes one deck per shipping customer.  On average it's normally 2 decks per customer.  I also don't understand where USPCC generates there quotes from, my last quote was $1.84 per deck plus set up fees and shipping.  Also, I pay $125 every 5 years for my resale cert which is worth the money, you may want to consider incoporating and getting one of those.  In PA the tax payment process isn't so bad and it's all done electronically.

In regard to the pricing USPC offers their clients, remember one thing - the figures can vary with the changes in temperature and humidity, the direction of the wind, the amount of precipitation, the roll of the dice, what last night's winning lottery number was...  I think you get my point.

Contracts are negotiated with USPC, so while you can get quotes without too much trouble, the actual price you get charged in the end can vary noticeably from that quote.  Until you have a signed contract, your cost per deck is subject to change for whatever reasons they want to give you.

I think that when I mentioned people getting 2,500-deck projects done in the past for under $10K, it was probably before the double whammy of higher prices at both USPC and USPS.  A lot of projects don't do the math like you just did, Rob - I've heard of countless people that literally pulled a number out of their collective asses and decided that would be the goal, regardless of the actual costs involved.  (Remember the kid with the Wealth deck - his first attempt had a goal of only $1,000 for a USPC-made deck...)

When the math is completed, however, it is possible to just scrape by on a $10K goal - IF you have a few deals set up with wholesalers and distributors to carry your deck in their inventory when the printing is completed.  Those numbers usually don't show up in the project's bottom line on KS because of their restrictions on wholesale sales.  A project without such deals lined up will have a lot of problems staying afloat, especially if they barely make it over the finish line and hit their goal.

And we're not even taking into account that there will be leftover decks; many, MANY leftover decks.  No matter how big the project, you never cut the print run so close that you're only making one deck for each deck claimed on KS.  The +/-10% factor makes doing that risky because they'll never hit the nail right on the head  It would seem as simple as just putting 5,000 or 2,500 sheets into the printer, but there's too many factors affecting the print run in terms of damaged sheets, misalignment in the cut, etc. that you have to give yourself leeway.

Additionally, despite all their technology, it seems they can't accurately track the precise number of sheets put in the machine due to the variances in the weight of the paper, even from sheet to sheet.  The additional counting technology is likely too cost-prohibitive for USPC to invest in.  They don't care as much because you buy the decks regardless of the size of the over- or under-run - it's in the contract.  (Cheaper to hire a lawyer than buy a machine - who'd have figured...)
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2013, 02:14:02 PM »
 

Alex Willis

  • Discourse Royalty
  • *
  • 391
    Posts
  • Reputation: 13
  • A penny saved is worthless

  • Facebook:

  • Kickstarter:
Contracts are negotiated with USPC, so while you can get quotes without too much trouble, the actual price you get charged in the end can vary noticeably from that quote.  Until you have a signed contract, your cost per deck is subject to change for whatever reasons they want to give you.


It helps to flirt with the girl who writes up the contracts... I'm just saying.
Alex Willis
Game Designer
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2013, 03:09:02 PM »
 

Rob Wright

  • 52 Plus Joker Member
  • Aficionado
  • *
  • 1,363
    Posts
  • Reputation: 98

  • Kickstarter:
My quick confusing math.
Everybody knows that USPCC's minimum run is 2500 decks w/ a possible10% overrun (that has to be accounted for)= 2750 possible decks.
Quote I received from USPCC for branded decks-delivered to the East Coast. $2.72 each X 2750= $7480 + $870 set up fee = $8350 possible to USPCC

I may be going a little high on shipping. US shipping for 1 deck/w cost of shipping material is about $2.60 first class. Most shipments will be more than 1 deck. I'm estimating about $2.20 per deck to ship average

Now some backwards math.
$10 per deck average pledge - $1 for KS & Amazon - $2.20 shipping = $6.80 per deck sold to pay USPCC

$8350 / $6.80 =1228 decks minimum needed sold.

Now forward math
1228 decks x $10.00 = $12,280 absolute minimal goal if you cannot afford to take money out of your pocket. That is if nothing goes wrong and USPCC does not charge any additional art fees(@ $75 per hour). I believe a sample deck from them is $450. $250 if you want proof sheets/tuck only. And after all that. I forgot about my state sales tax(5%) that will be charged by USPCC, because I do not have a resale cert. So there goes another $400 or so.

Good math, but that assumes one deck per shipping customer.  On average it's normally 2 decks per customer.  I also don't understand where USPCC generates there quotes from, my last quote was $1.84 per deck plus set up fees and shipping.  Also, I pay $125 every 5 years for my resale cert which is worth the money, you may want to consider incoporating and getting one of those.  In PA the tax payment process isn't so bad and it's all done electronically.

In regard to the pricing USPC offers their clients, remember one thing - the figures can vary with the changes in temperature and humidity, the direction of the wind, the amount of precipitation, the roll of the dice, what last night's winning lottery number was...  I think you get my point.

Contracts are negotiated with USPC, so while you can get quotes without too much trouble, the actual price you get charged in the end can vary noticeably from that quote.  Until you have a signed contract, your cost per deck is subject to change for whatever reasons they want to give you.

I think that when I mentioned people getting 2,500-deck projects done in the past for under $10K, it was probably before the double whammy of higher prices at both USPC and USPS.  A lot of projects don't do the math like you just did, Rob - I've heard of countless people that literally pulled a number out of their collective asses and decided that would be the goal, regardless of the actual costs involved.  (Remember the kid with the Wealth deck - his first attempt had a goal of only $1,000 for a USPC-made deck...)

When the math is completed, however, it is possible to just scrape by on a $10K goal - IF you have a few deals set up with wholesalers and distributors to carry your deck in their inventory when the printing is completed.  Those numbers usually don't show up in the project's bottom line on KS because of their restrictions on wholesale sales.  A project without such deals lined up will have a lot of problems staying afloat, especially if they barely make it over the finish line and hit their goal.

And we're not even taking into account that there will be leftover decks; many, MANY leftover decks.  No matter how big the project, you never cut the print run so close that you're only making one deck for each deck claimed on KS.  The +/-10% factor makes doing that risky because they'll never hit the nail right on the head  It would seem as simple as just putting 5,000 or 2,500 sheets into the printer, but there's too many factors affecting the print run in terms of damaged sheets, misalignment in the cut, etc. that you have to give yourself leeway.

Additionally, despite all their technology, it seems they can't accurately track the precise number of sheets put in the machine due to the variances in the weight of the paper, even from sheet to sheet.  The additional counting technology is likely too cost-prohibitive for USPC to invest in.  They don't care as much because you buy the decks regardless of the size of the over- or under-run - it's in the contract.  (Cheaper to hire a lawyer than buy a machine - who'd have figured...)

Don, excellent point. nothing is set in stone till names are signed on the dotted line. As far as my quote- being just some Joe Shmo trying to get a quote. I imagine they have a policy of throwing out a high number to start with. I will defiantly try to negotiate a little better when the time comes. Another thing I didn't mention on my math was international shipping. Most every one on KS has International backers add shipping. The problem with this is every dollar of extra shipping goes towards your goal. That has to be factored in as well. It's a shame that KS & Amazon make a profit on shipping.
Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died.

 Steven Wright
http://neverforgotten.storenvy.com
Facebook- Never Forgotten Project

My Playing Card DB
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2013, 01:50:48 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,172
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:

Don, excellent point. nothing is set in stone till names are signed on the dotted line. As far as my quote- being just some Joe Shmo trying to get a quote. I imagine they have a policy of throwing out a high number to start with. I will defiantly try to negotiate a little better when the time comes. Another thing I didn't mention on my math was international shipping. Most every one on KS has International backers add shipping. The problem with this is every dollar of extra shipping goes towards your goal. That has to be factored in as well. It's a shame that KS & Amazon make a profit on shipping.

Defiantly, huh?  You must be one helluva negotiator...  :))

We're getting off-topic.  Let's rein it in a bit...
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2013, 02:46:11 PM »
 

PugFrog

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • 5
    Posts
  • Reputation: 0
  • Think off-center. ~George Carlin

  • DeviantArt:

  • Facebook:

  • Kickstarter:
Still making updates, if anything for the next time around ;)

I hope you all have a good Fourth of July!

Damon
Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?
~ George Carlin
 

Re: [KS] The Royal Dogs Playing Cards: The Pugs
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2013, 04:22:57 PM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,172
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
Still making updates, if anything for the next time around ;)

I hope you all have a good Fourth of July!

Damon

Ditch the frilly stuff around the court indices - it makes them harder to read.

Good luck to you on the second go-around, if this one doesn't make it.  Try promoting the deck more - we haven't heard "boo" from you in what, three weeks?
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/