The Ambras Playing Cards by Jeanette Dunnett (KS)

[Rob Wright]

The Ambras Playing Cards

My Goal

The Ambras Court Deck and the Ambras Hunting Deck, are playing cards that are from the mid 15th century. These playing cards are currently on display at the KHM Museum in Vienna, Austria. I contacted the museum to see if they would be willing to give me rights to produce sets of these playing cards for the history enthusiast or the living history enactor to use at living history events.

Once again these cards are NOT going to be collector’s cards, they are meant for everyday use. If you want the collector’s editions you can purchase them directly from the KHM website. The collector’s editions are the version that Piatnik made for the KHM Museum.

This is where you come in, I am hoping that you can help me come up with a portion of the $3,000 Canadian dollars to help pay for licensing agreement, and the production of the playing cards.

[Don Boyer]

There's a bit of a flaw in the concepts that a) this is meant to be a series of everyday-use decks, but at the same time b) the cheapest among them is $25, the most costly being $45 and all four available for $150, with no discount for this combination or any of the others being offered.

"Modern day 300gsm coated playing card stock" is about the same quality as mass-produced Bicycle Rider Backs.  Not impressive by far, especially at those prices.

As far as getting the rights - I'm inclined to think that Piatnik would have some degree of exclusivity in regard to reprinting the cards, especially since Piatnik is printing the collector's editions of the same decks.  I can't see them willingly accepting a competitor introducing a lower-quality, less-expensive reproduction in the marketplace without making a stink about it - and they probably have the contractual rights all tied up in a bow, courtesy of their contract attorneys.

I'm going to move this topic to the Cellar - while it is a repro, it's a repro of an antique deck.
In other words, this project has several tough rows to hoe, perhaps even a few too many.

[variantventures]

As regards the rights I know Jeannette got permission from the museum to produce this deck using imagery supplied by them.  I have no idea what contract the museum has with Piatnik.  Given that I've seen at least two producers selling copies of this deck I suspect the museum needs to act to preserve copyright or risk losing it altogether.

As regards the price I'll go out on a limb and say that playing card consumers have been somewhat spoiled by the economies of mass production.  This deck will never find the audience that modern, small print playing card runs find.  But, to be fair, many modern, small print playing card runs don't find that audience either.  And a lot of people (me! ) can't afford to bankroll a 500 deck print run and then be stuck with 300 decks that end up getting dumped on retailers who insist on wholesale prices that are less than what the cards cost to get produced.  We can discuss the Darwinian action of the marketplace but, ultimately, these cards will be available to the small group of people that care about them.  I'll grant you Jeannette is charging more than I would, but her game store is her livelihood and I'm just a guy who likes old cards and sells a few in his spare time.  I know that my decks run $12-$15 each I make between $2-$3 per deck sold which is, so I'm told, peanuts.

[Don Boyer]

Trust me when I tell you, you wouldn't be the first deck creator to run into those issues!  I've heard some terrible stories from some of my clients about what retailers insist on, people asking for freebies, etc.

You raise some very good points.  It's certainly not an "everyday" deck, but there will be an audience for this.  It's simply a matter of finding that audience and hoping that it's large enough and willing enough to part with the funds needed.

[Worst Bower]

For playable cards they're too expensive but as reproductions they are still cheaper than Piatnik's.

How do museums have copyright status for centuries-old decks? Aren't they in the public domain?

[Don Boyer]

For playable cards they're too expensive but as reproductions they are still cheaper than Piatnik's.

How do museums have copyright status for centuries-old decks? Aren't they in the public domain?

In the US, anything created prior to 1923 is in the public domain - and that would include pretty much any antique deck of cards, or close to it.  But public domain covers only copyright - if a museum was using some element as a trademark, that might be different.  That's about the best answer I can give, given my limited knowledge of the law covering such things.

Companies try all kinds of crazy things when it comes to intellectual property.  I've heard that the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame's building is a copyrighted design - you can't publish photos of it without paying a royalty, unless it's part of a news article of some kind.  Whether the HoF is indeed claiming this or not is one thing, but if they are - how on Earth does one enforce such a thing, and would it even stand up in court?  Simply put, if a company (or a museum) can claim it's theirs and no one tries to stop them, they will claim it's theirs, plain and simple!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some patent papers to file regarding something I "discovered" - it's called the "alphabet"... 

[Worst Bower]

My hunch is that while the deck is in the public domain, the scans the museum provide are not. Much like how any photos you take belong to you even if what you took is available to everyone else. Since the museum doesn't let anyone scan their cards without permission, they are effectively gatekeepers.

[Don Boyer]

My hunch is that while the deck is in the public domain, the scans the museum provide are not. Much like how any photos you take belong to you even if what you took is available to everyone else. Since the museum doesn't let anyone scan their cards without permission, they are effectively gatekeepers.

Bingo!  I knew there had to be some way they were functioning as gatekeepers here with a legal leg to stand on.  But if someone were to recreate the deck - not using the scans, but by simply recreating the art, perhaps in the style of an art forger but presenting the result as a reproduction, not the original - that could be done without the museum's consent?

[variantventures]

My hunch is that while the deck is in the public domain, the scans the museum provide are not. Much like how any photos you take belong to you even if what you took is available to everyone else. Since the museum doesn't let anyone scan their cards without permission, they are effectively gatekeepers.

Bingo!  I knew there had to be some way they were functioning as gatekeepers here with a legal leg to stand on.  But if someone were to recreate the deck - not using the scans, but by simply recreating the art, perhaps in the style of an art forger but presenting the result as a reproduction, not the original - that could be done without the museum's consent?

Absolutely.  You don't even have to go as far as recreating the deck (which has been done, by the way) but could instead take your own pictures of the original artifacts and you're free and clear.

[Don Boyer]

My hunch is that while the deck is in the public domain, the scans the museum provide are not. Much like how any photos you take belong to you even if what you took is available to everyone else. Since the museum doesn't let anyone scan their cards without permission, they are effectively gatekeepers.

Bingo!  I knew there had to be some way they were functioning as gatekeepers here with a legal leg to stand on.  But if someone were to recreate the deck - not using the scans, but by simply recreating the art, perhaps in the style of an art forger but presenting the result as a reproduction, not the original - that could be done without the museum's consent?

Absolutely.  You don't even have to go as far as recreating the deck (which has been done, by the way) but could instead take your own pictures of the original artifacts and you're free and clear.

Well, even with your own photos, the end result will be that someone will redraw the art - you can't reproduce good-looking playing cards off of photos alone.

[variantventures]

A couple of examples of people re-creating playing cards by hand can be found at LadyHeatherHall.com and Cervus Trading.  In the case of Cervus Trading, they will sell you a handmade deck.  Prices reflect the labor.

Cervus Trading 15th Century Provencal/Italian deck:


Cervus Trading handmade reproduction of the Cloisters' Deck:

[Don Boyer]

A couple of examples of people re-creating playing cards by hand can be found at LadyHeatherHall.com and Cervus Trading.  In the case of Cervus Trading, they will sell you a handmade deck.  Prices reflect the labor.

That's some excellent work.  There's an article in the March issue of CARD CULTURE Magazine that tells the story of the Cloisters deck - the oldest-known example of a complete deck of playing cards.