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FRAUD ALERT! Is this a scam on Ebay on a vintage deck

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FRAUD ALERT! Is this a scam on Ebay on a vintage deck
« on: December 05, 2013, 10:36:07 PM »
 

badpete69

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So on occasion I like to browse the old vintage decks on Ebay to see what's out there and I have in the past purchased a few old decks. Today I spotted a very nice Aviator deck from seller worldwidecollectibles4u

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251396397897?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Now this seller has a perfect rating as you see and I have bought once or twice from him in the past, so I had no worries from the get go. I sent him a note seeing if he would take $80 for this deck (yes half price). His response was that for $95 we had a deal. So Wow what a deal...But for some reason I decided to check on a few things before I made the purchase. Not sure why but I am glad I did.

First when I searched for 1927 Lindbergh Aviator Playing cards I found a completed listing for the same deck

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1927-AVIATOR-914-CHARLES-LINDBERGH-COMMEMORATIVE-PLAYING-CARDS-w-BOX-/141119810590?nma=true&si=%252BM7%252BkEWPmq1wpsnLEBMUI8HBZCY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

And you guessed it, the winner of that auction was worldwidecollectibles4u, easily determined by looking at the winning bidder rating and looking at the comments the seller left for him the date of the sale. My first reaction was wow did he get a second deck but when you closely look at the pictures of the tuck box on both auctions, you quickly see that they are one and the same

  • Small brown stain on the upper left corner of the front of the box between the wings and the word Aviator
  • The two small rips just below and right of the words playing cards
  • The identical ripped tax stamp on the back of each tuck box
  • On the side of the tuck where it says Aviator Playing Cards, the letter V, A and T of Aviator are frayed identically
  • Etc. etc. etc.

Ok now my suspicions are raised. Could it be that he had a second sealed deck without a box and is using this box in this auction  (highly unlikely I know, but trying to keep an open mind)

Now let's go to another factor. So the Aviator deck was printed by the USPCC in the late 1920s. The stamp on the tuck box that is ripped does appear to be a long 10 cents stamp that was used from 1929 through 1940. See this website for my references http://www.cypressfilms.com/Bicycle/USPC_Dates/USPC_Dating_Codes.html

This would make the deck 1929 instead of 1927 but that is OK I guess. Why would there be a second stamp on the set of sealed cards  inside an already stamped box. Moreover why would the stamp be cancelled by a different company than the one that printed the cards. On the tuck box you can see that the stamp was cancelled by the USPCC (you see the first 2 letters) But on the sealed deck you have a stamp cancelled by the SPC Co Standard Playing card company which was a separate branch of the USPC in the late 20s as far as i can tell. I found this info online...Standard Playing Card Co.  based in Chicago, IL (1890-1930) 
from 1894, operated as independent part of USPC
in 1930, was merged into Consolidated Dougherty Co.

 IS it normal that 2 different stamps would be on the same deck? Could the seller have re-sealed the cards that he bought for $5, put a second stamp on  and his trying to get 200% of his money? Or is it just my overactive imagination?.

One last thing  I had doubts on the authenticity of the Lindbergh Joker  but I just found this site that seems to say it is valid
http://www.a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/WWPCM/usa/spcc.htm
http://www.a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks07/d05699/d05699.htm

If anyone can help out here it would be great.  I am not saying the seller in question is a crook but you have to admit there are a lot of coincidences here
 

Re: FRAUD ALERT! Is this a scam on Ebay on a vintage deck
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 10:59:06 PM »
 

CBJ

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THe tuckboxes in both these auctions are the same deck.


I 100% would not trust this auction.  If it's too good to be true... it normally is.

Jay
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Re: FRAUD ALERT! Is this a scam on Ebay on a vintage deck
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 11:12:33 PM »
 

chach

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I think the answer you seek is in the description, " A poker box and a bridge deck sealed."

Two different items in one auction.  Poker sized box from the other auction and the sealed bridge sized deck. As bridge decks were often sold in pairs they were often wrapped individually w/ a tax stamp and sold in one large box.  That would explain the stamp on the mummywrap. 

Seems like 2 incomplete items and not worth the $95 counter offer IMO.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 11:13:59 PM by chach »
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Re: FRAUD ALERT! Is this a scam on Ebay on a vintage deck
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2013, 09:24:20 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I did miss that when Badpete brought it to my attention last night.  It's an odd way to sell a pack of cards, that's for certain, and despite the bridge deck being sealed, I don't think it was worth the negotiated price.  They're two mismatched items.

I did note on those pages you linked to Badpete, that Standard Playing Card Co. did make a version of Aviators with a Lindbergh joker.  I also noticed last night that the original seller of this tuck box sold it with a "K" deck.  "K" on this deck could only mean 1928, but the tax stamp in question was from 1929.  As we discussed it, we figured that yes, the deck probably was printed in '28, but wasn't sent out for sale until '29, hence the newer model tax stamp.  We see this a lot from USPC - often their decks made towards the end of the year will still be selling as new merchandise into the following year's spring, and you won't see a deck from that year until perhaps late February or March, once the printing and distribution is finished.

And before anyone asks, yes, Aviators used to be made in a bridge size.  I own some late-model Aviator bridge decks I got from a seller in Canada - the labeling on the deck is English and French.  Also, bear in mind that it wasn't long after the Aviators were released that it suddenly became the company's generic deck, sold under other brands like Caravan, Torpedo and I think also Mohawk.  I don't think it would be all that far-fetched for USPC to have made a bridge set of these, made under whatever off-label brand they choose.

While I consider the odds slim, I'd want to see the back pattern on those cards before I'd consider sealing the deal - and I'd negotiate harder for a lower price.

On the plus side, Badpete, at least you know the seller isn't a total scam artist, as we had thought last night!
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Re: FRAUD ALERT! Is this a scam on Ebay on a vintage deck
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2013, 10:19:27 AM »
 

52plusjoker

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As Don said, USPC made several brands with the generic Ace and Joker used for Mohawk, Caravan, etc. No question the deck is authentic - and the 'K' certainly dates it 1928. Also tax stamp sure appears legit. Box is clearly wrong as narrow decks never packed in wide boxes. Nor would there be a tax stamp on the deck and on the box. Standard made over 50 narrow brands, which can only be discerned from the box, and sometimes the Joker, as they did not normally put the brand name on their Spade Aces. Aviator deck listed in the Hochman Encyclopedia of American PC on p.138/9. It's price guide, for what it is worth, lists it at $20, so question the value being put on this - but like beauty, value is in the eyes of the buyer.
Tom Dawson
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 10:20:46 AM by 52plusjoker »
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Re: FRAUD ALERT! Is this a scam on Ebay on a vintage deck
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2013, 10:23:51 AM »
 

badpete69

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Thanks a lot for those clarifications...Yeah I did miss the bridge deck versus the poker box... But in the end even though he does say " A poker box and a bridge deck"  he did told me in a note that the sealed deck came from that box. So there was a slight element of a lie here.  Anyway  all good 
 

Re: FRAUD ALERT! Is this a scam on Ebay on a vintage deck
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2013, 10:31:22 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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As Don said, USPC made several brands with the generic Ace and Joker used for Mohawk, Caravan, etc. No question the deck is authentic - and the 'K' certainly dates it 1928. Also tax stamp sure appears legit. Box is clearly wrong as narrow decks never packed in wide boxes. Nor would there be a tax stamp on the deck and on the box. Standard made over 50 narrow brands, which can only be discerned from the box, and sometimes the Joker, as they did not normally put the brand name on their Spade Aces. Aviator deck listed in the Hochman Encyclopedia of American PC on p.138/9. It's price guide, for what it is worth, lists it at $20, so question the value being put on this - but like beauty, value is in the eyes of the buyer.
Tom Dawson

Back when I was doubting the authenticity of the deck offer, I was concerned about tax stamps a lot.  I recall stumbling across a philatelists' version of eBay and among the offerings were quite a large number of playing card tax stamps, most of which in pristine condition and selling reasonably cheaply, since they were all canceled.  I've also seen an Asian vendor selling modern decks with old tax stamps on them - I think it was on eBay.  He had a long "1 Pack" small 10 cents stamp on a box of the Bicycle "Big Gun" reprints, and I think he gave the same treatment to a few other common decks like Bee and Tally Ho.  We had thought that perhaps the seller had wrapped the deck in some vellum or similar and placed his own stamp from a different deck on it.

Seeing the description state that they're two separate items clears that up, but it just seems so peculiar to sell two rather different items in this manner under the same sale.


Thanks a lot for those clarifications...Yeah I did miss the bridge deck versus the poker box... But in the end even though he does say " A poker box and a bridge deck"  he did told me in a note that the sealed deck came from that box. So there was a slight element of a lie here.  Anyway  all good 


Well, now that confirms a suspicion I had.  It's all too common - a seller selling something by positioning it to be one thing visually, but in fact it's something different, stated in a way that can be overlooked.  If he indeed told you that this pack came from this tuck box, he's contradicting his own product description.


It's something to keep an eye on, for sure.


EDIT: I found the old topic on those fakes I mentioned: http://aethercards.com/discourse/playing-card-plethora/anyone-want-to-buy-some-fake-vintage-decks/msg64517/#msg64517

The links to eBay no longer work, probably because of the age of the auction.  They remove them after a certain number of months.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 02:18:13 PM by Don Boyer »
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Re: FRAUD ALERT! Is this a scam on Ebay on a vintage deck
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 01:49:24 PM »
 

badpete69

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So I sent an email to that seller explaining the whole story of our investigation and so on  and basically told him he was misleading a bit in his description and that he should make sure all potential buyers know that the box and the sealed deck were 2 different items...

His reply was the following

"Wow, so much attention on one listing, there are 98,999 other listed decks, and I have 290 listed also, so please let me know if I have created any other hardships for you and your peers. God Bless"

Hehehe  guess he doesn't care that much as his sarcasm is oozing through his reply
 

Re: FRAUD ALERT! Is this a scam on Ebay on a vintage deck
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 03:22:11 PM »
 

sprouts1115

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I don't trust anyone who says "God bless"  I lot of scammer use that word.  I get that a lot when I'm renting out one of rooms.  I get the same thing.  I'm a single lady from overseas and like to party.  Oh by the way I'm sending over my car or furniture, or whatever over.  I'm making an overpayment from the rent and deposit and I want you to send the shipping charges to so and so.  I always say yes the room is reserved for you and I will do what ever you ask.  Once I get the bogus check I say, "Oh the overnight flat letter got caught in a rain storm.  I went to the bank and they could not read the routing numbers.  Can you send me another one ASAP"  I've been messing with this one scammer for years.  I've probably gotten 50 checks from him.  He loves to use the word "Comfortable" 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 08:49:48 PM by sprouts1115 »
 

Re: FRAUD ALERT! Is this a scam on Ebay on a vintage deck
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 08:05:07 PM »
 

jmrock

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Never had any issues with World Wide Collectibles… One of the best collections of Vintage Playing Cards I have ever seen…
 

Re: FRAUD ALERT! Is this a scam on Ebay on a vintage deck
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 11:32:16 PM »
 

badpete69

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Never had any issues with World Wide Collectibles… One of the best collections of Vintage Playing Cards I have ever seen…

I agree JM  he does have amazing vintage cards for sale.  We discussed this again tonight and he is definitively NOT a scammer. He already updated his listing with some clarifications, and I would not hesitate to deal with him again on some great vintage cards. I consider the issue resolved. I appreciate the input of everyone