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Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)

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Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« on: June 13, 2012, 01:56:08 PM »
 

Cipher Kai

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I'm somewhat new to the forums but I've been lurking a little.  I'm working on a playing card deck for Kickstarter (big surprise right?) and I'm trying to decide what the best card stock will be.  I have a background in Collectible Card Games so I have contacts for that type of stock as well as printers who use German and French black core stocks.  I'd really like some advice of playing card collectors on your preference and opinion of the different stocks.  USPCC is way more expensive than the other options so if there is an attractive option that doesn't require their costs I'm very interested.  Are there other stocks other then the ones I mentioned that are well regarded for collectors?

Thanks for your help!
 

Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2012, 08:19:12 AM »
 

Assassino13

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Well if you want a high-quality deck then there really is no substitute for the USPCC. They also have my personal favorite stock, Aristocrat. I like that it's thin and kind of bendy. Unlike Bee Casino which is very stiff. Also, Aristocrat is cheaper for you than Bee casino.
 

Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 10:24:54 AM »
 

Evan

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I would definitely go with USPCC. As far as handling goes, their decks are the nicest.

If your deck is a black deck, then you may want to go with a thicker stock like Bee Casino so that it will last longer. If it's a white deck, you can really go with any stock. It just depends on how you want it to feel. There's always good old Bicycle stock!
 

Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 01:26:56 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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I back what has been said so far. Also, not only is the quality of USPCC decks generally greater than that of other companies, plus they have a great reputation among card users, and their prices aren't too high either.
 

Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2012, 12:18:34 AM »
 

jriffel

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Oh Nathan,
It is very sad if you really believe what you wrote.  USPCC produces only marginally good quality card decks.  USPCC printing errors and cutting errors are incredibly horrible, all the time.  Their prices would be justified if the quality were 3 magnitudes better, but sadly, they are not.  USPCC does use a good variety of paper types, some as good as other large companies, some not.  There are other printing companies that do an excellent job with good quality, good inks, and good paper.
 Cipher Kai,  there is a large mindset bias in many collectors/cardists in and out if the USA.  If your primary target will be the users of these forums, any printer used other than the USPCC will have this bias working against you.  If you are looking at a larger market, don't worry so much about USPCC.  There are other great printers out there.
 

Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 11:59:01 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I agree mostly with jriffel, Cipher Kai.


Where are you based?  In North America, USPC makes a lot of sense.  In other coutries, maybe not - they're not cheap.


If you're in Europe, consider Fournier.  They're an independently-operated subsidiary of USPC in Vitoria, Spain.


I have some sample decks from Brahma Playing Cards, based in Mumbai.  If you're printing in a large enough quantity, they're a decent alternative as well.


But if you're aiming for the collectors' market in the US, the majority of collectors (unfortunately for them) won't look at a deck that didn't come from USPC.
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Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 01:05:27 PM »
 

Cipher Kai

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Thanks for all the input.  I'm based in the US but have worked with printers on CCGs that print Pokemon, Magic the Gathering, etc.  They specialize in these kinds of products and I believe they compete with USPCC on quality.  USPCC is a lot more expensive than these other printers because they trade heavily on their personal brand.  There are also highly regarded card stocks from Germany and France that can be printed by specialized factories in China that also do Collectible Card printing.  My main audience is Kickstarter and then it will be hobby distribution at hobby, comic, board game, and tabletop gaming shops.  It seems the main audience is collectors on Kickstarter.  Of course I want to reach the broadest audience possible so I certainly don't want to alienate collectors.  So if collectors only want USPCC I may be required to do that. 
 

Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2012, 01:33:19 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Thanks for all the input.  I'm based in the US but have worked with printers on CCGs that print Pokemon, Magic the Gathering, etc.  They specialize in these kinds of products and I believe they compete with USPCC on quality.  USPCC is a lot more expensive than these other printers because they trade heavily on their personal brand.  There are also highly regarded card stocks from Germany and France that can be printed by specialized factories in China that also do Collectible Card printing.  My main audience is Kickstarter and then it will be hobby distribution at hobby, comic, board game, and tabletop gaming shops.  It seems the main audience is collectors on Kickstarter.  Of course I want to reach the broadest audience possible so I certainly don't want to alienate collectors.  So if collectors only want USPCC I may be required to do that.

The sad but simple fact is that MOST collectors do trade exclusively in USPC, and some limit themselves to one subset of USPC - the Bicycle brand.  If you want greater sales, USPC would be the path to take.

But...

If you can accurately gauge your primary audience's level of demand and find that the cost of printing outweighs the potential profit, THEN say "to hell with the collectors, what do they know?" and print with any reasonably-priced company you can find.  Honestly, the ratio of card collectors to the general population is probably well under 1%.  There have been a number of successful Kickstarter projects that had no appeal whatsoever to the playing card collector, but a segment of backers thought it was cool enough to invest in.

If you don't believe me, there's a kid on here named Reagan who made a steampunk-themed deck - most of the people here had little interest in it, some were openly against the deck even being made.  But enough Kickstarter backers jumped in to get him over the top and get the deck made.  I'd bet most of them were NOT collectors - he had no plans at all to print with USPC.  But in the end, it didn't matter.  People liked his idea enough to get it off the ground.

Plus it didn't hurt that he was EVERYWHERE promoting the hell out of it...

That's something many failed Kickstarter project lacked - the project creators had no clue and assumed they could build it and that people would come.  It's a big reason why most of the failures failed.  Regardless of whether you're making the deck with USPC or any other printer, you need to get the bandwagon out and start barking at whoever will listen to entice them to back your project.  It's critical with a USPC project because they generally have a much higher goal due to the increased cost of printing.

(Wow, can I ramble or what?  :)) )

Last piece of advice for now: there are alternatives to Kickstarter.  The House of Playing Cards (HOPC; click here) is actively searching for designers and non-designers to find a handful of really, REALLY good deck ideas and get them made.  They back you completely for a small percentage after their costs are recovered, while you retain rights to everything but the deck itself (and those rights revert back to you when the deck is no longer being printed).  They're very selective about deck ideas (their current plan is to introduce not more than one new deck a month), so you have to have a rock-solid idea, but it's worth a shot and will save you LOTS of hassle if your deck is chosen.

Just mention that I sent you to them!  I do some work with them from time to time.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 01:34:05 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 07:37:14 PM »
 

Cipher Kai

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I'd like to keep the audience broad including collectors because I want to reach as many people as possible with the deck.  I might do what the grid did and offer an upgrade package to USPCC cards if a certain fund goal gets hit.  It didn't seem to hurt them (the awesome art didn't hurt either ;) ) and I think they are now the most successful Kickstarter deck out there. 

Marketing is very key to the strategy.  I've been collecting forum URLs to talk about the deck and looking for ways to advertise through Facebook and google ads.  I'd love to find a list of sites to direct marketing and buzz to for the deck.   The artist and friend I'm working with, Wen Yu Li, has a huge following online at wen-m.deviantart.com.  With over 12,000,000 page views I think we'll get a lot of buzz there once we start showing the cards off.  We've worked together for 6 years on our Anima game and I really want to showcase his style on a deck of playing cards. 

We've finished the back and are working on finishing the art for the face cards and other elements.  I'll create another thread here soon once we get all the parts done so you can see what we've got going.   Heck, I'll put a little teaser in here.  Let me know what you think of the back. 

 

Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 08:11:03 PM »
 

Aaron

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Wow! That is a very innovative and unique back design. I really like it. I think you should have no problem getting it funded through USPCC. I can`t see any good reason to not go through USPCC, they are the best in the business and you will recieve alot more pledges and backers if you print through them. I personally dont bother with collecting non-USPCC decks because they are ussually poor quality and there are so many it is too hard to keep track of. Anyway, if these are through USPCC, I will be pledging for a few. :)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 08:48:11 PM by Aaron »
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Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 08:48:45 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Well, that back sure is... very interesting. I'm not sure if I'm a huge fan of it, but it does seem very detailed. I'm not quite understanding all the different elements, but hey, it's you art, not mine. Good luck!
 

Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 01:21:28 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Should you wish to retain symmetry, you can alter the wings' locations.  If you put "angel wings" in one pair of opposing corners and the "devil wings" in the other pair, you'll have a fully symmetrical deck back.

It's not crucial to a deck to have a symmetrical back, but asymmetric back designs allow someone to turn all the cards one way while placing specific cards the other to make them easy to find.  Magicians sometimes use this for tricks, but if the back is too obviously asymmetrical, the audience will know the way it was done.  Gamblers sometimes try the same thing, tracking cards in a deck to know who got certain cards and who didn't, or to secretly have those cards dealt to him/her and not the other players.

I think it's a very attractive design, sure to create a big following.  Looking forward to seeing the rest of the deck.
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Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 07:13:23 PM »
 

Cipher Kai

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It looks like we may be able to get the wings moved to go for a symmetrical look.  We're also trying some different background colors because I think it will bring out some of the details better so it's not green on green.

Thanks again for all the input!   
 

Re: Card Stocks (CCG, French, German, USPCC, etc.)
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2012, 12:16:04 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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It looks like we may be able to get the wings moved to go for a symmetrical look.  We're also trying some different background colors because I think it will bring out some of the details better so it's not green on green.

Thanks again for all the input!

Seeing what you have so far, I'd recommend you consider submitting your deck to HOPC.  I was at Blue Crown HQ Tuesday afternoon and got to see some of the failed submissions - from half-decent to abysmal.  Yours stands a better chance of being considered.
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