A new "Hunting Deck"

[shimmering]

Hi all, I am hoping you might be able to offer some feedback on a playing card project that I am hopefully close to completing.

The deck I have designed is based on the so-called hunting decks from the late medieval period that were made shortly after the arrival of playing cards in Europe, especially the Ambras hunting deck and the Stuttgart hunting deck. Both of these medieval decks were hand-painted.

The makeup of the deck I have designed is basically as per a standard modern French (English) deck, with 13-card suits of A, 2-9, banner 10, J, Q, K. So it ought to be possible to use these cards for play.

The four suits, though, are non-standard. Each of the suits is represented by an animal associated with the hunt. They are: Hounds, Hawks, Pheasants, and Deer. Each of the suits is also colour-themed, both in the backgrounds and in the colours of the clothing for the court cards.

So I have finished painting the artwork for these cards. I have hopefully attached some pics of some of the cards to this message ...


Things that I am planning but that are possibly detractions, I don't know:
-- No indices --- you have to count the animals (or recognise the scenes ... there is hopefully enough variation that this should not be too difficult). This is in keeping with the appearance of the early hunting decks.
-- Plain maroon-coloured backs (and maroon-coloured full-bleed margins on the fronts). Again, the plain backs are in keeping with the appearance of the early hunting decks.
-- No jokers. I could make some I suppose, but I haven't.

I am planning on putting this up on Kickstarter in the new year. I have no idea what sort of interest there will be in such a project. As I am in the UK, I am ideally hoping to get the printing done in the UK (or Europe).

Well, all comments welcome!

[Worst Bower]

Very old school, perhaps too much. You're appealing to collectors who enjoy facsimiles of very old decks. In this case, it's not a reproduction but an homage to the past. There might be an audience but don't expect a large print run. You should set a low goal.

I'm not sure if the Ambras or Stuttgart cards were ever played with, they are very impractical even for their era. They are probably early examples of art decks.  You might have to market this to the art history crowd as well. I love your attention to historical detail like the banner 10s but most people outside of a portion of Switzerland won't get it. You'll have to explain what they are on the project page and perhaps on a leaflet or in the packaging as well. Personally, I would have the kings on horseback.

I won't be able to respond for the next two weeks as I'll be on holiday (and visiting some card museums). I wish you the best.

[Don Boyer]

If you're going for something faithful to the original, then yes, you've hit your mark - but you're also aiming for a very small audience of collectors.  Worst Bower's points are all valid.  In the time period you're speaking of, playing cards were hideously expensive, and some of the finer examples were made not so much to be played with but as a means of conspicuous consumption, by which to show off one's wealth to one's guests.  Some fine decks made of gold and silver would certainly fall into this category, but so might the finer examples of painted decks.

You could make adaptations of the older style with the modern updates to them - it would reduce the authenticity, but it would also increase the playability and popularity.  I would recommend using indices to be certain.  You might even consider using modern pips in the indices but retaining the artwork you've created for the faces - modern audiences have a harder time accepting unique pips but are less opposed to attractive artwork, so this would be a blending of the two concepts.  Jokers - you could get them or leave them.  There are a few games that make use of them, but very often they simply end up discarded.  I personally prefer them, but not everyone does.

As far as the back design, I'd make TWO recommendations.  Make a unique design that might be more visually appealing, along the lines of a "what if they made elaborate, period-appropriate designs for card backs in that era?"  But give the backs and faces a white border.  This is a lovely bit of art I'm seeing so far, and a fine white or light gray border will show edge damage less than a darker color like maroon would.  Edge chipping on paper cards is a fact of life and printing dark ink on white paper will make these chips very prominent.  Again, it's a nod to better usability - you could opt for maroon instead if you want to make something pretty that people will look at but not necessarily play with.

[shimmering]

Many thanks both of you for the feedback. Yes I agree some explanation of the banner 10s is definitely necessary. I'm testing out some things with indices at the moment, so we'll see how that goes. Thanks again.

[NineLives]

Interesting work shimmering I hadn't heard of hunting decks before so thank you for sharing I can imagine that finding a balance between staying true to the original look whilst reaching a modern-day audience poses interesting challenges ... Looking forward to seeing what you come up with testing those indices

[variantventures]

Well, I'm the guy who likes early cards and I really like your work.  If you go on to make changes for those with more modern tastes (which is the bigger market) I hope you'll make this true to the original version deck available through print on demand for those of us that like this sort of thing.

Very nice.

[Worst Bower]

I just came back from the Fournier museum. They didn't have the original Ambras cards but a reproduction. They are enormous, basically the size of those jumbo cards. I can't see anyone playing with them in any time period. It must have been an art deck.

[Don Boyer]

Well, I'm the guy who likes early cards and I really like your work.  If you go on to make changes for those with more modern tastes (which is the bigger market) I hope you'll make this true to the original version deck available through print on demand for those of us that like this sort of thing.

Very nice.

An interesting option that would appease both the modern and the antique collector might be to make a poster print similar in design to an uncut sheet that shows off the designs in their original late-medieval style, minus any modern accommodations.  It would in essence serve a similar purpose to the original decks of this type, the ones made more for show than for play - something with which to decorate the home.

[shimmering]

Hi all ... I'm posting pics of some modifications I have made. I have given white edges to the cards, and added single-corner indices (1-9, X, J, Q K). The numbers are rather smaller than on a standard English deck, but they're similar in size to a modern Spanish pattern. For the backs I have done a simple two colour repeating pattern in full bleed.

I've also attached a picture of a mock-up tuck box --- I don't know whether you can make it out from these photos but it uses the card-back design as a sort of texture. Many thanks for all your comments!

[variantventures]

I just came back from the Fournier museum. They didn't have the original Ambras cards but a reproduction. They are enormous, basically the size of those jumbo cards. I can't see anyone playing with them in any time period. It must have been an art deck.

While that's possibly true, it's risky assigning modern values to medievals.  Conspicuous consumption was a trait of the ultra-rich then as now.  It's entirely possible those cards were meant to be played with and, if they were damaged or destroyed in the process, that just showed how wealthy their owner was.

[variantventures]

Hi all ... I'm posting pics of some modifications I have made. I have given white edges to the cards, and added single-corner indices (1-9, X, J, Q K). The numbers are rather smaller than on a standard English deck, but they're similar in size to a modern Spanish pattern. For the backs I have done a simple two colour repeating pattern in full bleed.

I've also attached a picture of a mock-up tuck box --- I don't know whether you can make it out from these photos but it uses the card-back design as a sort of texture. Many thanks for all your comments!

If you're going to add indices then you should do so at both corners.  You may also wish to add French suit symbols in the indices.  Non-standard suits don't go over well with the mass market.

[Don Boyer]

Hi all ... I'm posting pics of some modifications I have made. I have given white edges to the cards, and added single-corner indices (1-9, X, J, Q K). The numbers are rather smaller than on a standard English deck, but they're similar in size to a modern Spanish pattern. For the backs I have done a simple two colour repeating pattern in full bleed.

I've also attached a picture of a mock-up tuck box --- I don't know whether you can make it out from these photos but it uses the card-back design as a sort of texture. Many thanks for all your comments!

Variant ventures too the words out of my mouth regarding indices.  If you're in for a penny, you're in for a pound - use French suits with values and place them in both "left-hand" corners, not just the one.  Feel free to either leave out or incorporate the French suits into the body art - it would work well enough either way.  Place the indices OUTSIDE of the edge of the art and in the white border, as it would appear on a modern card, and consider removing the hard-line black borders in favor of a soft fade into the white border - it will make your artwork appear bigger than it actually is.

The back design you've chosen would be more at home on a 19th-century deck, I think - and regardless of whether that's accurate or not, it's a bad choice simply because one simple nudge of a millimeter in any direction at the cutting die and your entire deck becomes a subtle but spottable one-way design.  Either go with a border or go with a simpler, smaller repeating pattern, a la vintage plaid decks or Bee Diamond Backs.  Some decks, particularly display decks, had no art at all on the back - when they're put on display, no one sees the backs!  Back designs I know of didn't get intricate on a regular basis until the 19th century (but don't quote me on that as my personal experience is limited).

VV, as far as conspicuous consumption, it's pretty safe to say that many of the uber-expensive decks of Medieval times were indeed never intended for play.  Some were actually made out of precious metals instead of paper!  There were lesser decks used for play and fancier decks used for show, by and large - and even the "lesser" decks were not exactly cheap in the days before full-color printing on a printing press.  It's not impossible that some unwise wealthy merchant or noble used a very valuable deck for poker or whatever the game of the day was (OK, it wasn't poker, but you get the idea), but it's not very likely, either.  The reason such examples still exist tends to be a result of how little play use they actually received over the centuries.

[variantventures]

I liked the burgundy border but it's not practical because the edges of the cards will be white.  I think your back design is period-appropriate but as Don points out it will not play well with modern card buyers.  You should, at least, put a white border around the design for the card backs or accept that some people will be turned off by your design.