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FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)

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FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« on: October 04, 2014, 08:40:14 PM »
 

AdamF

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We just launched on kickstarter a very special and unusual deck.  I'd love to hear what folks think, and of course I'd welcome your support...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2057423380/fine-line-playing-cards-in-pictures-and-words?ref=card
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2014, 10:01:45 PM »
 

AdamF

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Some pics.  Please let me know if you all want to see more...

 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2014, 11:57:15 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Some pics.  Please let me know if you all want to see more...

Of course we want to see more!  I have to say, your deck is very nontraditional.
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Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2014, 12:22:42 AM »
 

Rob Wright

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Quote
HOW DOES IT WORK? 

Each of the cards features an illustration or phrase that depicts the card's value and suit in a new and surprising way. For example: An octopus depicts one of the eights. A lion is one of the kings. The ten commandments is one of the tens.

For the suits, we've created four distinct families of illustrations or phrases. Each thirteen-card family has its own style and theme. Cards that go together in a family make up each suit. We've also created two very special and unusual jokers.

That's all we'll give away! The rest is for you to figure out!

This is a pretty interesting idea. So we have a random object suit, word suit, animal suit, and what looks like a cookie cutter suit. That's what I see. Looking forward to seeing more.
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Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2014, 08:23:53 AM »
 

AdamF

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Quote
HOW DOES IT WORK? 

Each of the cards features an illustration or phrase that depicts the card's value and suit in a new and surprising way. For example: An octopus depicts one of the eights. A lion is one of the kings. The ten commandments is one of the tens.

For the suits, we've created four distinct families of illustrations or phrases. Each thirteen-card family has its own style and theme. Cards that go together in a family make up each suit. We've also created two very special and unusual jokers.

That's all we'll give away! The rest is for you to figure out!

This is a pretty interesting idea. So we have a random object suit, word suit, animal suit, and what looks like a cookie cutter suit. That's what I see. Looking forward to seeing more.

The feedback we got in testing was that the suits are a lot of fun to figure out.  So I'm not sure whether I should give away all of the suits here (should I spoil the puzzle?) but I will say that you're right about the word suit, and you're onto something when you note that there's an object suit. 

Here's an alternative mockup that we did that reveals four additional cards and gives some more clues about the suits.
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2014, 08:28:50 AM »
 

AdamF

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I've gotten some questions about our funding goal. 

The $4,200 we're trying to raise covers only about half of what USPCC is charging us. The rest is coming out of our own pockets. We really believe in this project, and we'd like to make it a reality, even if it means dipping into the piggy bank.  We've already given USPCC a chunk of money, which is why they've agreed to get the cards delivered to us in November (and in your hands before Christmas).
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2014, 10:50:44 AM »
 

Rose

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Usually I love the non-traditional but the pictures just seem so random I imagine this would be a nightmare to try to play with, so essentially what is left is 56 cards with pictures on them. Maybe a guessing game at best. While the images are quirky and fun the back of the card is probably the worst I have ever seen. The box is cool and I do like the style, I just wish there were some indies to turn it from picture cards into a playable deck.
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2014, 11:14:50 AM »
 

AdamF

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Usually I love the non-traditional but the pictures just seem so random I imagine this would be a nightmare to try to play with, so essentially what is left is 56 cards with pictures on them. Maybe a guessing game at best. While the images are quirky and fun the back of the card is probably the worst I have ever seen. The box is cool and I do like the style, I just wish there were some indies to turn it from picture cards into a playable deck.

Are the decks playable? Yes. Once you figure out how all the cards work, you can play any game you want with them, including poker. Poker players who we tested it on liked playing with our cards -- the feedback we got was that flushes in particular were easy to see with our cards, because the suits are graphically similar to one another -- so all you have to do is take a quick look to see whether all your cards are in the same style. Straights and pairs and threes of a kind, etc. are a little bit harder to see. So, yeah, it'll be more of a challenge to play with these cards than to play with an orthodox deck that has pips and indices. But our testing also showed that most folks thought that the challenge was really cool and added an interesting dimension to the game.

The backs: the backs are very straightforward: they're very dark and raw, like someone has taken an Etch-a-sketch and drawn all over it. Again, an unorthodox choice to go with our very unusual deck.  There was a tremendous amount of care and thought that went into making a ton of original art for this deck.  So the aim was to keep the backs simple, hip and non-distracting. 

Yes, it's a wild deck!  I sincerely hope you'll give it a chance and back us!
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2014, 12:04:47 PM »
 

Will W.

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I can see that you are trying to be different just for the sake of being different which I can appreciate somewhat.  However, that one old expression comes to mind when I look at this project... " If it isn't broke, don't fix it." 

JMO....  I wish you all the luck with your endeavor.
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Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2014, 12:50:15 PM »
 

AdamF

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I can see that you are trying to be different just for the sake of being different which I can appreciate somewhat.  However, that one old expression comes to mind when I look at this project... " If it isn't broke, don't fix it." 

JMO....  I wish you all the luck with your endeavor.

For me, cards are a way to connect with other people -- by playing card games around a table, or by sharing my collection.  There are so many decks I love.  The ones that are most special to me are the ones that when I show them to people, they start a conversation. 

With this deck, we wanted to make something that started a new kind of conversation -- a conversation that was playful and mentally engaging.  In testing the deck, I found that the people who were really into it were folks who tested it in groups of 2 or 3 -- I think that's because it became a way for people to share an experience and to connect as friends.  Above all, that's what we're going for here.  I sincerely hope you'll back us and find out what I mean!
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2014, 01:31:50 PM »
 

Nurul

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Points for taking a different approach.
However, you said "once you figure it out" which has kind of put me off. There will be people out there who may get frustrated trying to figure it out and toss the deck to one side. I know I would. There's thousands of decks out there to play card games and poker with. I know you said you've tested this with poker players, however I don't see this working in a poker game at all.
Also, I like my decks with a bit of colour, not a fan of black & white decks that much.

Personally, I won't be pledging, but I do wish you luck. I like to see people succeed at something they truly love.
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Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2014, 01:43:26 PM »
 

AdamF

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Points for taking a different approach.
However, you said "once you figure it out" which has kind of put me off. There will be people out there who may get frustrated trying to figure it out and toss the deck to one side. I know I would. There's thousands of decks out there to play card games and poker with. I know you said you've tested this with poker players, however I don't see this working in a poker game at all.
Also, I like my decks with a bit of colour, not a fan of black & white decks that much.

Personally, I won't be pledging, but I do wish you luck. I like to see people succeed at something they truly love.

Thanks, Nurul.  Yes, the deck has to be "solved" before it can be played with -- it's a puzzle, which, depending on the person, can take anywhere from 10 to 25 minutes to solve. (It's faster when groups solve it together).  Hopefully you and my deck will meet one day, and you'll get to try it out!
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2014, 02:36:19 PM »
 

alvinhy

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Just a question, so if the deck is held with one hand when playing a card game or something won't the top card hide the bottom cards artwork and you will need to separate each card in order to figure out what they are?

Its good for a two card game but what if a game that consists of multiple cards?!
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2014, 06:20:59 PM »
 

CthulhuWho1

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Here's what I sent off to the creators by way of Kickstarter email before I saw the discussion here:

Adam1 & Adam2,

I'm interested in your deck of cards, but I have to tell you, having been burned before, something about your project just doesn't add up...

Before all of the extra set-up fees at the USPCC, a minimum order of 2500 decks (with a plus or minus 10% surcharge) is $5200; and they charge you for every deck they print over your 2500 order, which can end up being 2750 decks for $5720!

You are asking for $4200.

And this doesn't even count the nearly 10% off the top of each project for Amazon and Kickstarter; nor does it take into consideration that postage and shipping costs eat up 15-18% of each project.

So how will your goal of $4200 cover $5200 (minimum) for printing, plus all of your fees, postage, shipping, and handling?  Which can end up actually costing a grand total of something more like $11000 if you want to cover all of your expenses.

Please don't tell me you expect to pay all of the extra costs out of your own pockets, because that is what many past failed project creators have promised too.

Will Hart
Fullerton, California

 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2014, 08:59:56 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Everyone, please - remain calm!

I've spoken to Adam last night.  I'll admit I was concerned at first as well, which is why I asked him to call me (we're in the same metropolitan area).  As he stated earlier, he's partially funding the deck out of his own pocket.  This is not the first time we've seen someone do this, so there's no need to freak out.

Yes, this is a NON-TRADITIONAL deck.  We've seen them before as well.  There's also the artistic value of the work done on these cards - it's a full-custom job, people!  We don't see that terribly often.  Every single card is a unique piece of artwork.  It's not even "Oh, we made custom pips," it's "Oh, we handcrafted the artwork on every single piece of pasteboard you're looking at."  It's an effort along the lines of something like the Ultimate deck - except there's one artist and one artistic style, consistency through the entire deck.  That is an impressive amount of work.  The only mass-produced deck I can think of off the top of my head that's a bigger job than this one was would be WhiteKnuckle Playing Cards - and those practically drove the artist crazy with the amount of work involved in creating it.

Yes, I like indices as much as the next guy - but people did use playing cards for several hundred years before the index was created.  Again, it's not a traditional deck.  If I was playing a hot game of Texas Hold 'Em for big stakes, I would not use these.  But if I was introducing a child to the wonder of playing cards, this would probably be a fun way to start.  It's also an interesting change of pace for playing with a few friends, to stretch the brain a little.

So no, it's not the first deck I'd grab for performing a little sleight of hand or losing at poker, but it's one of the more unique concepts I've seen in a while, and not simply unique for the sake of being unique, either.
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Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2014, 09:39:20 PM »
 

AdamF

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Don,  Thanks for the kind words about the deck.  I really appreciate your support on the discourse.

I've been answering lots of folks' questions about our funding goal.  It's low because we're prepared to spend our own money on the deck (and have already given USPCC a substantial amount of money).  I encourage folks to google me (Adam Farbiarz, New Haven, CT) and my partner (Adam Douglas Thompson, Brooklyn, NY).  We're real people and I hope that we communicated through our KS presentation that we're attentive, straightforward and, above all, trustworthy.

About the art:  Yes, it's totally wild!  I think collectors and card players will find it very fun, if you've got a taste for the heterodox and the new.  My partner (Adam T.) is an amazing illustrator, with a great, cool, crisp style.  There are other amazing designers who illustrate every card (Emmanuel Jose)  -- we're a little different because not only is every card unique but each one is its own visual puzzle.  Each card expresses its number in a totally new and surprising way.

One thing: Just to clarify: one of the suits is all words -- no pictures, no pips -- just words.  Little puns, kinda of.  Those aren't exactly illustrations...they're more like...games.

I sincerely hope that folks support our deck!  If you're open to trying something different, I think you'll find it really cool.
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2014, 09:50:10 PM »
 

AdamF

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Just a question, so if the deck is held with one hand when playing a card game or something won't the top card hide the bottom cards artwork and you will need to separate each card in order to figure out what they are?

Its good for a two card game but what if a game that consists of multiple cards?!

When playing a card game, you may have to fan out our cards bit wider than you're used to, in order to see the art.  We found in tests that our cards worked well with games that have 5- or 7-card hands, like poker or gin.  We didn't test on bridge players, but one person we spoke to said that she thinks it could be cumbersome to play bridge with the cards. 

And then there are the games that are very much enhanced with these cards -- speed games like spit, and party games like crazy eights are a real trip.  One guy even told us that he thought his kids would like using our cards for drinking games.  What a dad!
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2014, 12:45:12 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Just a question, so if the deck is held with one hand when playing a card game or something won't the top card hide the bottom cards artwork and you will need to separate each card in order to figure out what they are?

Its good for a two card game but what if a game that consists of multiple cards?!

When playing a card game, you may have to fan out our cards bit wider than you're used to, in order to see the art.  We found in tests that our cards worked well with games that have 5- or 7-card hands, like poker or gin.  We didn't test on bridge players, but one person we spoke to said that she thinks it could be cumbersome to play bridge with the cards. 

And then there are the games that are very much enhanced with these cards -- speed games like spit, and party games like crazy eights are a real trip.  One guy even told us that he thought his kids would like using our cards for drinking games.  What a dad!

Bridge is difficult even with a standard poker deck - the cards in a bridge deck are more narrow by a quarter-inch on purpose, to allow people to easily hold 13 cards in their hand.

This isn't a deck for everyone, every game, every application.  Having said that, it's an attractive work of art that also makes you think a little harder.  I could easily see where certain types of games would be enhanced by this design.

The target audience for something like this would be people who enjoy art decks, people who are fond of high design, people who like to play non-traditional games or are open-minded enough to play traditional games in a non-traditional way, etc.  I could see this as being a great deck for pre-teen kids, and I suspect girls might find it at least as interesting as boys would, perhaps even more so.  It forces you to exercise mental plasticity - an ability to look at things different, with a new perspective, particularly as it relates to problem solving and puzzles.  Anyone with intelligence and a creative streak will find this an enjoyable alternative.  They'll never replace a pack of playing cards, but then again, neither will a pack of Uno cards, or Skip-bo, Rook, etc.

BTW: bit of trivia - Rook was actually INTENDED to be a replacement for playing cards.  The game's inventors, George Parker (one of the Parker Brothers) and his wife, Grace, wanted to create a card game for the several religious groups that were morally opposed to or religiously banned from using traditional playing cards because of their associations with gambling.  It's a modified version of the French tarot game decks - the trump cards 1-21 are removed (0 becomes the game's one joker), the suits become colors and the four court cards in each of the suits were remade into the number cards 11 through 14.  It's somewhat ironic, since with the subtraction of just four cards, the Rook deck can be used to play almost any standard card game.
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Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2014, 11:23:41 PM »
 

sprouts1115

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I for one like to see something different.  Can we see a close up of your back of card?   
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2014, 08:56:46 AM »
 

AdamF

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I for one like to see something different.  Can we see a close up of your back of card?

Here's the back.  I'd love to hear folks' comments and suggestions.
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2014, 11:34:04 AM »
 

PurpleIce

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I for one like to see something different.  Can we see a close up of your back of card?

Here's the back.  I'd love to hear folks' comments and suggestions.

For a deck called Fine Line, your back looks more like Doodler Gone Crazy. Is there actually a reason behind this back? i mean...my wife can draw such a back...especially when i make her mad... 

Seriously, i think your deck looks fine...except for the back. It just looks lazy and "given up". If you are going in that messy direction, at least try overlapping characters, words or whatever elements is in your deck to and extend whereby it has quite a lot of "black" on it, but people are still able to differentiate hints of what your back is made up of. If you don't really have a concept behind your messy back, then you really need to re-do it from the top.
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2014, 04:57:29 PM »
 

AdamF

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I for one like to see something different.  Can we see a close up of your back of card?

Here's the back.  I'd love to hear folks' comments and suggestions.

For a deck called Fine Line, your back looks more like Doodler Gone Crazy. Is there actually a reason behind this back? i mean...my wife can draw such a back...especially when i make her mad... 

There is a method to my madness! 

Because there is so much imagery on the fronts of the cards, we wanted a back that was not an image or a pattern, so that the back would contrast dramatically with the fronts.  We also wanted something that was built out of line, not solid color fields.  Everything in the deck is built out of line consisting of the same weight -- that's the fine line running through FINE LINE -- and we didn't want to break that rule on the back.

We ended up with a back that was simple, dark and raw.  We then played around with it a bit so that it would be a symetrical two-way back, so it could make a cool fan, even after the cards have been shuffled.  It's edgy, no doubt about it.  But so is the rest of the deck. 
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2014, 06:52:08 PM »
 

sprouts1115

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AdamF - When you say "There is a method to my madness"  you are speaking my language.  Your deck is obviously an art deck.  What that means is all your courts and pips are going to be "1-way" and you have done your research into knowing your back of card should be a mirror image or "2-way"  I respect you more and my hat is off to you.  You have not broken any rules, but have really bent the crap of of them.  Yes, your back of card looks like a spider made it on LSD, but hey that's my opinion. But I also know it goes with your theme.  Stick to your guns.  I think you have something different and special.  Your deck is a very unique deck and love seeing decks like this.  They are far and few between. 
 
 

Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2014, 08:58:40 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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There is a method to my madness! 

Because there is so much imagery on the fronts of the cards, we wanted a back that was not an image or a pattern, so that the back would contrast dramatically with the fronts.  We also wanted something that was built out of line, not solid color fields.  Everything in the deck is built out of line consisting of the same weight -- that's the fine line running through FINE LINE -- and we didn't want to break that rule on the back.

We ended up with a back that was simple, dark and raw.  We then played around with it a bit so that it would be a symetrical two-way back, so it could make a cool fan, even after the cards have been shuffled.  It's edgy, no doubt about it.  But so is the rest of the deck.

I have to say, the art on the faces looks fantastic - but the back looks horrible.  I get the idea behind why you made it the way you made it, but I think the idea is flawed, especially for an art deck - the back should look attractive.  If you want it to be different from the faces, fine - create a fifth "suit concept" and make only one image for the back.  An empty picture frame would have worked.  A picture frame with a "painting" of the back of someone's head would have really driven home the concept of being a card back.  And to make it a two-way design, make your portrait take one-half of the card and rotate the design to cover the other half.

That's my two cents.
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Re: FINE LINE: Playing Cards in Pictures & Words (KS)
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2014, 09:18:15 PM »
 

alvinhy

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I agree with all the recent comments aboutt he back.
It loses that intricate fine minimal design.

Doesn't really go with the design on the front.

I think you were trying to create some contrast between the front and back
but maybe have it in the same style. rather than splatters of dots how about random lines drawn on?