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Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" + Links

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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2012, 12:04:03 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Very interesting post Don! Now we can refer people to another thread for info on stocks and finishes. How do you learn all this stuff? Through direct contact with USPCC?


Some, yes, but through official documents rather than direct contact.  Most of my sources I can't mention.  Make that ALL of them.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #76 on: June 15, 2012, 05:50:49 PM »
 

Assassino13

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So I asked USPCC if it were true there were only two finishes, and they basically said "Yes, but the amount of finish sprayed on also makes a difference. For instance, Tally's have more finish than Bikes." hope that clears things up a little.
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2012, 02:48:26 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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So I asked USPCC if it were true there were only two finishes, and they basically said "Yes, but the amount of finish sprayed on also makes a difference. For instance, Tally's have more finish than Bikes." hope that clears things up a little.

Dude, that sounds more like snake oil to me...  I've never heard them even admit to having only two finishes in public, and it's a subject they're quite sensitive about.  As far as quantity of finish...  I just find that a little hard to swallow.
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Playing Card Facts from Around the Web
« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2012, 03:31:59 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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USPC's 2012 Catalog for Retailers
http://www.bicyclecards.com/catalogs/USPC_OnlineCatalog_R25.pdf

Anthropolgy Article on the Chinese Origin of Playing Cards (dated 2009)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/aa.1895.8.1.02a00070/pdf

Cardboard Illusions - a little dated, but has some cool info on cards, magic and other stuff
http://cardboardillusions.com/card_history_of_cards.php

"Mrs. Robinson's" - the legendary handbook displaying (almost) all known Bicycle backs as of 1955
http://www.cypressfilms.com/Bicycle//Robinson/Robinson.html

...and speaking of Cypress Films, here's their page on dating USPC decks.  The letter code list is out of date, but the info on tax stamps are "written gold" for vintage collectors.
http://www.cypressfilms.com/Bicycle/USPC_Dates/USPC_Dating_Codes.html

Lee Asher's more up-to-date list of USPC letter codes.  He actually gave me a "thank you" credit at the bottom of the list, right next to Tom and Judy Dawson!
http://www.leeasher.com/playground/articles/how_to_date_a_deck_of_cards.html

A couple of relevant Wikipedia articles, for good measure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_card
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Playing_Card_Company



Ladies and gentlemen!  If you also have some valuable or semi-precious links for information about playing cards, PLEASE, I IMPLORE YOU to reply here and share them with the rest of us!
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Re: Playing Card Facts from Around the Web
« Reply #79 on: July 31, 2012, 10:07:47 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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This comes to us courtesy of Atheosile.  Excellent videos - never knew a TRAGIC ROYALTY deck could actually perform!  The video on card conditioning should be must-see-YouTube for all cardists and a lot of the rest of you.



Hey guys, I was wondering if any of you had some advice/tips on deck conditioning...The deck, Tragic Royalty (bicycle) has a horrible finish, I'm sure most of us know lol...This guy Pred has a video where he uses these and has conditioned the deck to fan beautifully...I know it is old and saw it awhile back...Anyone have pointers?

Here is the link to the vid:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H-du5B7Wy4&feature=plcp

*EDIT*: Just found this video from him...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDOj6ycFAr4&feature=player_embedded
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2012, 10:10:13 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Alex, can you please update this? I find it very interesting! Thx!
 

Re: Playing Card Facts from Around the Web
« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2012, 06:29:19 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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Yeah, pred is a freaking beast. I used his conditioning technique on my old style studs... I've been using them on a daily basis for months, and really 0 clumping. Plus they're very soft and nice to use.
 

Re: Playing Card Facts from Around the Web
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2012, 01:03:15 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I'm going to merge this topic with the "Fact or Fiction" topic and retitle it to reflect both topics.
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #83 on: September 23, 2012, 03:01:34 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Alex, can you please update this? I find it very interesting! Thx!

It sounds like Alex is a little busy, so let me see what I can do about that...

Here's some quotes from Alex's first post - I'll go over them one by one and see if anything's changed since he wrote it.

Without a doubt some of the most interesting details about how a deck of cards is made are obscured by uncertainty.
This thread is here to once and for all put a rest to some of the myths that circulate the community about cards. Have a myth you want debunked? Submit them to aethercards@gmail.com.

MYTH1 | Card production expenses are through the roof! FALSE
With the USPCC, production costs are reliant on so many variables that it will take decades to list them all. However, here are some basics that everyone should be aware of:

1. As of this post, Arrco faces cost significantly less - it costs more to use Bicycle faces, and even more to customize them.
2. Different stocks cost different amounts of money.
3. It actually costs extra to print under the Bicycle brand, but it can cost more to print without it if you choose to have custom face cards.
4. Metallic inks really are luxury! They cost significantly more per deck to use. Same goes for embossing and custom seals.
5. A huge chunk of spending of any good deck of cards is used on creating proofs/prototypes of the decks. Each prototype costs exponentially more than a deck of your standard cards. For example, the Vortex prototypes cost $250 each.
6. The more you print the cheaper it gets per deck! This one is pretty obvious, because quantity discounts apply to pretty much any business.

So as you can see, card production costs are only through the roof so long as you opt for high quality products. The higher quality you want, the more originality you create - it's very easy to drop over $10,000 on production. Likewise, for small businesses that want quality promotional items such as a deck of cards, it's also possible to spend half that for a simpler product with the USPCC.


 Still pretty much correct.  Making a very basic deck with nothing custom but the backs would be very cheap in comparison to the custom decks we're used to seeing.  The only increase I'd see in production costs would have to do with the cost of fuel for transporting manufacturing materials and finished products.  My father was a contractor while he was still alive, and even then contractors were tacking on surcharges for fuel usage - I can't imagine this practice has gone away.  If anything, it's likely a higher charge today than it was then.
 
 
MYTH2 | The reason decks aren't fully customized more often is because of legal issues! FALSE
More customization means more money spent, but it also means a longer development time. USPCC has all the obvious legal restrictions that center around copyright, but also allow for 100% custom decks to anyone that wants them.


 Again, still pretty much the same.  Copyrighted works not owned by the deck's creator get scrutinized up the wazoo to make sure the proper legal clearances are in place, but if you're dealing with your own completely original art, it's not all that big an issue.
 
 
MYTH3 | Clipart decks take under a week to develop, and are created for the sole purpose of ripping off collectors! TRUE
The unfortunate reality is that many "custom" decks being released now are made in just a few short hours, and don't use any real custom art. The purpose of these decks is to suck in anybody that is looking for a sweet, limited set of cards.


 Merz67 lives and dies by this fact!  The moral of the story is don't buy a crappy deck just because it's a limited edition.  All that does is encourage more people to make crappy decks.
 
 
MYTH4 | The USPCC is responsible for all of the horrible decks we see! This is their doing! FALSE
The USPCC goes to great length to actually keep horrible decks from polluting our market. However, they are a client-oriented company and do what the client requests. If you see a horrible deck from them - it's not their fault. Blame the person that made the deck.


 All too true, what Alex stated...
 
 
MYTH5 | Cards can be signed underneath the cellophane! FALSE
Decks are wrapped in cellophane in the production plants and then shipped out. There is no way to not damage the cellophane to get a signature underneath it.


 Alex himself has proved this myth to be true now - he gave away some decks that were signed under the cellophane.  But the trick of it is that such decks would usually be signed after production.  With the purchase of a $50 resealer machine and the cellophane sheets with tear strips, you can remove the factory-issue cellophane, sign it, then reseal it for later sale or giveaway.  But it is a tedious process, one that most deck designers aren't in a position to deal with (or want to deal with).

The more common method of deck signing is unwrapping the cello and signing the box itself.  It's a permanent marking, but it means the deck's no longer sealed in cellophane.  The other option is to sign the cellophane.  But most markers will rub off cellophane if you accidentally handle the signed portion of the wrapping, and it also means you'll never open that deck because that means you might tear off part of the cello that's signed in the process.  Furthermore, cellophane does shrink with heat and time, eventually tearing open on its own (many still-sealed Jerry's Nugget decks are in this condition).  When the cellophane's gone, so is the autograph.
 
 
MYTH6 | Q1 quality control is a real thing - it ensures that decks are printed without any huge mistakes! TRUE
Quality control is a huge must-have for any deck creator. Centered backs, smooth edges - all these things are the result of quality control. It works in a very simple way: all decks that don't meet X standard are chucked. That means it costs more money to print because the higher quality you demand, the more you end up chucking.

Here are some things quality control is NOT:

- Q1 is not a special machine made for those who have the money to print perfect decks.
- Q1 has nothing to do with how your cards handle with the exception that it ensures even edges.
- Q1 is not sheet-fed press vs. web-fed press. These two things have to do with the quantity of decks you're printing, not the quality.


 Q1 will indeed get you the best quality that USPC has to offer.  But that doesn't mean that every single deck will be completely perfectly made.  It just means that in the overall print run, more defective decks get caught during the manufacture and packaging processes - but it doesn't mean they catch all of them.

And as Alex stated, it's not some special machine or different type of press.  It's simply the level of quality control offered by the company.  Q-levels range from Q1 (best) down to Q5 (worst).  The lower you go, the cheaper your manufacturing will be, but the greater chance that bad defects will get through to your customers' hands and the more refund/replacement requests you'll have to deal with.
 
 
MYTH7 | Web-press is far better for a deck than sheet-press! FALSE
The Web vs. Sheet battle has been going on for ages and it has actually been settled a while ago. The sheet-fed press at USPCC is not lower quality, and as of late many people have been arguing that sheet-fed cards have better quality-control standards. This is a myth I'll be investigating at a later date.

You can learn more about the Web Press and Sheet Press by clicking the respective links here.


 I went over this in a subsequent posting.  I spoke with Lee Asher about this.  He mentioned that in the latter days of the Ohio plant, the sheet-fed press was a dilapidated, ancient machine, thus more likely to make faulty decks.  The Kentucky plant, however, now has all state-of-the-art equipment.

In the sheet-fed press, the paper roll is cut into sheets before going into the press.  This is fine for a short-run deck with only a few thousand copies being made, but somewhat inefficient for decks with larger print runs.  In the web press, the paper goes into the machine as a roll, is printed, and then is cut into sheets, then later into individual cards.  This is the type of press you see in those movies and TV shows where a scene takes place at a newspaper plant - the paper winds though the machine like a really long belt.  This is a very fast press, perfectly suited for large print runs.

As far as quality, the current presses in use at Erlanger are about equal in quality.  Other factors might affect the quality than simply which press is used, such has how recently a press has been maintained, whether the cutting blades and dies are new and sharp, how the paper was stored before printing began, the quality and consistency of the paper from the source, etc.
 
 
MYTH8 | Ohio decks are always better than Kentucky decks. Quality has just gone down the drain lately! FALSE
It took a little while for the factory in Erlanger, Kentucky to begin printing high quality decks like its Ohio counterpart, but we are now at a point where Kentucky decks are actually superior in terms of quality control. For most of the higher-end decks, gone completely are rough and uneven edges. Backs are much more centered now as well, and the available stocks are optimized to last and are absolutely wonderful. In fact, unlike the old Ohio decks which had a nasty tendency to "bow" and create a U-shape in the deck (making flourishing a nightmare), Kentucky decks are known for how flat the cards are. No bowing, no contortions.


 This is very much the case.  The late Ohio decks were noticeably lower in quality than the current Kentucky decks, assuming all other factors to be equal (Q-level, paper type, etc.).  This was especially the case with the late Ohio sheet-fed press decks, as I described above.
 
 
MYTH9 | The USPCC minimum run for a custom deck is now 5,000. TRUE
The number of decks that is a minimum requirement from the USPCC for printing is changing constantly. As of now, this minimum is 5,000 decks. Special deals are often arranged with the USPCC and you can print less but it costs significantly more to do so, and not as many options are available.


 Since this posting, the minimum has been lowered to 2,500.  Subject to change with the weather and the whims of USPC's executives...
 
 
MYTH10 | The new "Standard Bicycles" are simply nowhere near as good as the old "Rider Backs" from Ohio! TRUE
The "Bicycle Standard" decks have a much lower quality control than their old counterparts. Riderbacks are still made in mass production with high standards for quality, but you aren't as likely to find them in your local department store anymore.


 The "classic box" Rider Backs are NOT easy to find these days.  If they're still making them, USPC's keeping it an awfully big secret.  I only see "Standard" boxes now.

But, should you want a better quality deck, there are other options, many of which exceed even the quality of the "classic" box decks from Ohio:

- There's still a lot of Richard Turner "gold seal" Rider Backs around.  Traditionally cut and printed on Bee Casino stock.  Most shops still carry them for $5/pack, so they cost a little more, but far less than the majority of custom decks on the market.

- Aside from the box reveals, a pack of the CARC "Professional" Rider Backs is practically identical to the Turner decks.  Better still, they also come in Ivory Finish as well as Air Cushion, in the event you prefer smoother-textured cards.  Smoother cards provide more resistance between each of the cards, making them great for intricate cuts, aerial stunts involving tossed packets and easier double- and triple-lifts.

- The two look-alike decks on the market, the Mandolin Backs and the Maiden Backs, are of equal or better quality than classic-box Rider Backs, they're traditionally cut, and you can buy newly-made gaffs for them with altered backs, something that's no longer available for Rider Backs.
 
 
MYTH11 | The USPCC offers tons of different finishes! FALSE
Contrary to popular belief, the USPCC does not offer a large variety of finishes. Actually, there are only two kinds of coatings you can use on a deck of cards manufactured by the USPCC: Magic finish and Air Cushion finish. Cambric, Linoid, Linen, 909 Premium, Plastic Coated - these are just written on the box but either no longer exist (Linoid), or never existed in the first place (909 Premium). Unless you print a deck under the Bicycle brand, the USPCC actually allows you to write any made up finish name on the side of your box.


Alex's words are all too true.  But there was a third, experimental finish that was used on some of Alex's Vortex decks.  So Alex, what was the verdict regarding those decks?  Is USPC going to go forward with that finish or have they shelved it (or is it still being tested)?

At some point in time, there were distinctly different finishes used on different decks - it's where names like Cambric, Air Cushion, Linoid, Linen and High Finish all came from.  The thing is, though, that not only was it cheaper to replace all of those finishes with a single finish, it turned out that the "standard" finish now used, being of a more-modern composition, is actually in most cases superior to the original finishes that bore those (and other) names.  However, the newer finish is also known for being fantastic out of the box, but not lasting as long.  From the perspective of USPC, this is a good thing - decks wear out faster today than decades ago, meaning people buy replacements more often and they sell more decks.

"Apocalypse" and "Premium 909" finishes are just brand names dreamed up by the companies that made those decks.  So are any other variant finish names you see these days.

Also, take note that simply because a deck says "Air Cushion", "Ivory", etc., that doesn't necessarily mean it has the "standard" finish on it.  During the early stage of the transition to using Magic Finish on all their decks, many of Ellusionist's decks still said "Air Cushion" on the box despite being coated with Magic Finish.  The first-ever deck to use Magic Finish, the Gold Arcane deck, says Air Cushion Finish on every single box made.  CARC produced one of the Acorn Back decks in three versions, all using black and metallic silver inks, all marked as either "Cambric" or "Ivory", all made using Magic Finish.  CARC only used that finish because of the silver ink, and preferred using the classic Bee finish names.  (To date, the Ivory version of that deck is the only one ever made using Magic Finish on a smooth-textured stock.)
 
 
MYTH12 | The "finish" on a deck refers to the "dimpling" pattern pressed into the cards! FALSE
The finish on a deck of cards actually refers to the type of coating used on the cards in question. The dimpling has no real name, and a deck of cards either has the dimpling or does not. Cards that do not have the dimpling are commonly referred to as "smooth finish" despite the fact that the coating/finish applied can be Air-Cushion as well.

Many moons ago, the dimpling patterns were indeed made by using dimpled cotton or linen rollers to apply the finish.  That process was expensive - rollers had to be replaced frequently, resulting in a fair amount of down time for the press and spending on a lot of extra rollers.  It's why a Jerry's Nugget card has a dimpled finish on one side and a smooth finish on the other.

Today, to save money, steel rollers are used for applying finish, and the paper is either made smooth or dimpled during the layering process when the paper is pressed into card stock.  Two separate paper rolls are run though a machine where a glue is applied that's laced throughout with graphite - this makes the cards opaque rather than translucent.  When they are pressed together, they're either dimpled with steel rollers containing many fine points on them that deboss the paper while being sandwiched together, or they're left smooth by using smooth steel rollers.  This is the major reason why the resolution of what gets printed on a dimpled card is limited - the surface being inked isn't smooth and can distort very fine detail art.

OK, gang, so how did I do?  :))
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Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #84 on: October 11, 2012, 07:00:00 AM »
 

FluffyKitten

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Bicycle and Aristocrat are the same price, Bee is a little more.

ok, this is my question:
how much more does printing on bee stock cost? 1%, 10%, 25% more? because it feels to me like bee (casino?) cards lasts much longer and feels much better in the hand for playing than does bicycle but most custom decks seem to print on bicycle rather than bee stock?

is it all in my head that bees feel a lot better than bicycle and last longer?

are there other reasons why makers of custom decks would choose bicycle stock over bee ?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 07:01:55 AM by FluffyKitten »
 

Re: Playing Cards - Fact or Fiction? Myths debunked here.
« Reply #85 on: October 11, 2012, 09:12:16 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Bicycle and Aristocrat are the same price, Bee is a little more.

ok, this is my question:
how much more does printing on bee stock cost? 1%, 10%, 25% more? because it feels to me like bee (casino?) cards lasts much longer and feels much better in the hand for playing than does bicycle but most custom decks seem to print on bicycle rather than bee stock?

is it all in my head that bees feel a lot better than bicycle and last longer?

are there other reasons why makers of custom decks would choose bicycle stock over bee ?


Bee stock is indeed more expensive, though not insanely so.  Nowadays, USPC is down to only two stocks, Bicycle and Bee Casino, available in two versions each: smooth and embossed (with the little air-pocket dimples in the paper).  USPC pricing tends to literally change with the seasons, as does their options and volume discounts.  The most current pricing I have is nearly a year old, therefore likely to be totally out-of-date.


Bicycle stock is more than simply less-expensive.  Bicycle stock has certain handling properties that Bee Casino doesn't.  Bee is strong, thick and heavy, while Bicycle can be more supple while still providing good spring and strength.  Many custom deck makers use Bicycle stock over Bee for certain projects - HOPC's two biggest in-house brands, the Crown Deck and the NOC Deck, are both made with Bicycle stock and Magic Finish.


One of the factors in the higher cost of Bee decks is that due to the thickness of the stock, USPC farms out the manufacture of the tuck boxes to third-party contractors, which increases the cost.  They lack the ability (for reasons unknown) to print the correct box for Bee decks.  Casinos use Bee Casino because not only is it strong and highly durable, but it's also traditional.  Gamblers are traditionalists, and they don't like a great deal of change.


But remember that casinos are interested in one thing and one thing only - professional gaming, period.  And even with that, Bee is not as often seen at poker tables these days - it's more frequently used at games like blackjack, where the gamblers never actually make contact with the cards.  For poker, the preference is a plastic deck in bridge size - they're tougher to mark and otherwise alter, and they're washable and reusable.  The World Series of Poker doesn't use a single paper deck, nor are any of them actually "poker-sized" (nowadays referred to as "standard size").


For other, more diverse applications, there would be some desire for decks with different properties.  Which is why there's not just one card stock for all decks.  The only legitimate reason I can think of for USPC to reduce the variety of available stocks as they have would have more to do with costs of keeping a more diverse inventory than anything else - aside from custom-manufactured decks, the vast majority of their output uses either Bee Casino or Bicycle card stock.  Tally Ho is practically a boutique brand, since outside of a magic shop, the only place you'll find it is New York City; Aristocrat decks haven't been broadly available for a few decades; Bee playing cards, outside of casino use, are more popular in Asia than America because when it comes to playing cards Asians prefer quality while Americans go for acceptable quality at lower price (and sometimes they even sacrifice the quality).  Aviators are simply smooth-stock Bikes with a different back, as are Streamlines - Aviators are rarely seen outside of airports while Streamlines are practically the store brand of WalMart, also not often seen elsewhere.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 09:14:21 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2012, 11:55:30 AM »
 

FluffyKitten

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thanks so much for such an awesome and detailed answer so fast!

now to another question,

is there any big difference between a bee deck to and one from say 1989-1992? (My formative years which were spent playing spades with red bee decks at home and at the cafeteria at school.) as i was thinking of trying to get some bee decks from this era, but it might not be worth the trouble is they are largely unchanged?
 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #87 on: October 12, 2012, 02:03:07 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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thanks so much for such an awesome and detailed answer so fast!

now to another question,

is there any big difference between a bee deck to and one from say 1989-1992? (My formative years which were spent playing spades with red bee decks at home and at the cafeteria at school.) as i was thinking of trying to get some bee decks from this era, but it might not be worth the trouble is they are largely unchanged?


Well, if you're talking about the standard "Bee Diamond Back" decks found on sale in a variety of stores all over the country, then there's probably some differences but not enough to really be noticeable.  The biggest difference would be that the papers used today have both pre- and post-consumer recycled content in them, with the percentage getting larger as the years go by.  This has the unfortunate effect of degrading the paper quality - more re-pulped paper, less fiber from new wood.  There also may be some slight changes in the chemical formulation of the finish.


But as I stated, in all likelihood, none of these changes would be radical enough that you'd be able to tell the difference between the deck you used twenty-five years ago and the same make and model sold today.


One caveat: stay away from the "99-cent" stores when purchasing Bee decks.  There's a rash of cheaply-made counterfeits imported from China that have been making the rounds - the quality is horrible compared to the real thing.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #88 on: October 13, 2012, 06:31:47 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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I missed your long posts, Don :p I was just wondering, when you say nowadays there are basically only Bicycle and Bee casino stocks in use, what happenned to Standard Bee and Aristocrats stocks?
 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #89 on: October 14, 2012, 03:49:07 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I missed your long posts, Don :p I was just wondering, when you say nowadays there are basically only Bicycle and Bee casino stocks in use, what happenned to Standard Bee and Aristocrats stocks?


They're no longer being made.  You can get some variation out of the stocks with the humidity of the stock room and the pressure with which the "sandwich" of paper layers is put together, but Bicycle and Bee Casino are it now.  You might as well just call them "standard" and "casino".


This comes to me from a company that does a lot of custom deck work with USPC.  They also mentioned that Magic Finish is now the default finish for custom decks, offered at no extra charge any more.  To get "standard" finish, you actually have to request it.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #90 on: October 14, 2012, 07:23:42 PM »
 

NathanCanadas

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That's a bummer... Aristocrat and standard Bee stocks were actually my favorite of the four types of stocks: although I really like the NOCs, bicycle stock and magic finish, I loved the lightness and softness of the aristocrat stock, and the durability of the bee stock without having an extremely thick one like the casino stock. And so are the Aristocrats sold at T11 out of print or do they now have standard stock instead?
 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #91 on: October 14, 2012, 09:11:53 PM »
 

john

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I missed your long posts, Don :p I was just wondering, when you say nowadays there are basically only Bicycle and Bee casino stocks in use, what happenned to Standard Bee and Aristocrats stocks?


They're no longer being made.  You can get some variation out of the stocks with the humidity of the stock room and the pressure with which the "sandwich" of paper layers is put together, but Bicycle and Bee Casino are it now.  You might as well just call them "standard" and "casino".


When did this happen?
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2012, 12:23:41 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I missed your long posts, Don :p I was just wondering, when you say nowadays there are basically only Bicycle and Bee casino stocks in use, what happenned to Standard Bee and Aristocrats stocks?


They're no longer being made.  You can get some variation out of the stocks with the humidity of the stock room and the pressure with which the "sandwich" of paper layers is put together, but Bicycle and Bee Casino are it now.  You might as well just call them "standard" and "casino".


When did this happen?


No long, but I don't have an exact date.  My info isn't direct from USPC but from a customer of theirs.


There's also that new stuff used in (among other decks) the Bicycle Eco Edition and the Bicycle Archangels.  It's supposed to be 100% recycled and they use vegetable-based inks and starch-based lamination.  But for all I know, that IS the current-issue Bicycle stock...
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2012, 12:30:13 AM »
 

john

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No long, but I don't have an exact date.  My info isn't direct from USPC but from a customer of theirs.


If memory serves me correct the Mechanic deck is the last well known deck with bee stock. As are Ornate with aristocrat. Could you ask your buddy Kevin what they plan on doing when they have to reprint? Also who is this customer, if you don't mind me asking.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2012, 01:20:16 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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No long, but I don't have an exact date.  My info isn't direct from USPC but from a customer of theirs.


If memory serves me correct the Mechanic deck is the last well known deck with bee stock. As are Ornate with aristocrat. Could you ask your buddy Kevin what they plan on doing when they have to reprint? Also who is this customer, if you don't mind me asking.


Sounds like you already know...


Bee stock is still around - but just the Bee Casino version.  As far as reprints of the Mechanic Deck, you'd have to ask Jimmy K or HOPC.


As I said, this isn't first-hand information.  You could always go to the source and ask Bill Schildman at USPC Custom.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2012, 07:50:08 AM »
 

john

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Sounds like you already know...


Bee stock is still around - but just the Bee Casino version.  As far as reprints of the Mechanic Deck, you'd have to ask Jimmy K or HOPC.


As I said, this isn't first-hand information.  You could always go to the source and ask Bill Schildman at USPC Custom.


I guess i do?

Ill be sire to ask Jimmy and Randy what they plan on doing.

But all of us haven't spoken to him like you have.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2012, 01:16:36 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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That's a bummer... Aristocrat and standard Bee stocks were actually my favorite of the four types of stocks: although I really like the NOCs, bicycle stock and magic finish, I loved the lightness and softness of the aristocrat stock, and the durability of the bee stock without having an extremely thick one like the casino stock. And so are the Aristocrats sold at T11 out of print or do they now have standard stock instead?

Sorry - this question seemed to slip through the cracks.

The Aristocrats sold by T11 are not made by T11.  This is a standard USPC deck that T11 is simply reselling, just as they do for Bees, Tally-Ho and Bicycle Rider Backs.  There was, to my knowledge, one big print run for a healthy number of decks, and those decks were made on Aristocrat stock, which was still available at the time.

Any new decks (as in newly-made) that advertise "Aristocrat stock" are not being made on such stock - unless USPC has since changed its mind and decided to revive that product.
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2012, 04:58:58 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I got a PM from Doris earlier this morning, which I'm reposting here with her permission.  It covers a lot of information that I thought other neophyte collectors would find worthwhile, so I felt it best to answer her questions here for all to read.

Thanks, Doris!

Dear Don,

Sorry to bother you! May I seek your advice on the above topic please?

From the "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks - I read your post saying the Bicycle Professional Deck is the better quantity bicycle rider back at the market now. I am in the market looking for some good quantity decks for practices use - bought the following:
1. "Rider Back" made from Ohio (the box said, but inside from the AoS, it was made from KY), they were OK, better than standard backs and cost AUD$5/deck, only bought 2 bricks, not sure should I be using them as practice deck.
2. Master Deck - bought 12 (some blue and red), opened a deck of blue, this is better than standard back but not as good as Rider back from KY. After awhile they clumped together. Not sure if it is just the blue deck (someone say the red one is better), it says on E site that Master Deck is 7 times better/last longer than standard back. But that was not my experience, it is better but NOT 7 times! Cost AUD$6.xx/deck
3. Standard deck - not good at all, cost AUD$3.30/deck.

I'm assuming when you say "quantity" you're also talking about quality - you want a deck that good for practicing and purchasing in bulk.

Of those three here's what I have for you:

1 - the Rider Backs with Cincinnati on the box but Erlanger on the guarantee joker are from the new factory's transition period, usually printed in 2009 or 2010.  They have a black USPC seal on the box instead of a blue one - when you see that on a Cincinnati box, there's a good chance that it was made in either location.

Decks that came from USPC during the transition tended to be of a bit rougher quality - there was a "shakedown" period at the new factory while they were getting the new equipment up and running to capacity.  The quality of these decks are generally considered somewhat inferior to both late Cincinnati decks and "Standard" decks from Kentucky.

2 - Masters from Ellusionist are actually good stuff.  They never went through an "Air Cushion" phase in their manufacturing like a lot of other E decks did.  They came originally in UV500 stock with "Air Flow" finish (just another brand name for air cushion, really), but it was the stock on those that made the difference.  The decks marked "Air Cushion" without UV500 were made on the no-longer available Bicycle Casino stock - not as good as UV500, but better than standard Bicycle.  Now, they come with Performance Coating on Bee Casino stock.

Since the Masters went straight from UV500 to Bee Casino, either version of that deck should be a top-notch deck.  You may have simply had a bum pack - it happens now and then.  The Performance Coating is Magic Finish under the original name the product was using while it was still in the testing phase - E liked it so much better than the name Magic Finish that they kept it.  I know some have complained that Magic Finish isn't as durable as Air Cushion, but I've yet to see this for myself.

3 - "Standard" Bicycle decks are the exact same decks as Bicycle Rider Backs in an uglier box - period.  Initially the quality wasn't good - remember what I said about the transition period.  But since then, this has improved considerably.  While hardly "bulletproof", these decks are better than both the transition decks of 2009-10 and the late Ohio decks of the latter half of the 2000s decade.  They started using a slightly thinner stock - some swear by this stock, others consider it inferior - but the manufacturing processes are superior now to the previously mentioned decks.

If you wanted a good practice deck, any of these should suit you.  The Standards are actually cheaper where you are than where I am - buying individually from a local shop, I'd typically pay around US$4.00 for "Standards", and the US$ and AU$ are trading at almost exactly 1:1 the last time I looked.  Masters, while more costly, will give you superior durability - but since they're thicker, you'll find transitioning to thinner decks a little jarring unless you perform with thicker decks as well.  Cross-training - using a variety of thicknesses - is always good for the versatile performer!

Quote
I am thinking of trying some Bicycle Professional from CARC, but they come in "Ivory" or "Cambric/Air-Cushion". I have read somewhere saying mix "Ivory" + "Air-Cushion" can make some cool trick. Is this true? I googled "Ivory" + "Cambric" could not find anything regarding cool trick. Do you think it is a good idea to buy a mix brick of these or should I just get 12 "Air-Cushion"? I mainly want to do some "card magic trick" and "fanning" practices with these decks.
Or should I focus on the Richard Turner "gold seal" Rider Backs as you mentioned they are similar to Professional.

"Air Cushion" and "Cambric" are trademark names for the same thing: standard USPC finish on an embossed (dimpled) playing card.  "Ivory" is the same thing in a smooth playing card, no dimpling.  The dimples improve glide between cards and helps with fanning - most smooth decks (Aladdins being the major exception) don't fan well).  But a smooth card is stiffer and better for certain sleights where you want cards to have a small amount of resistance keeping them together.

To me, the Richard Turner Gold Seal Bicycles and the CARC Professional Bicycles in Air-Cushion are essentially the same thing, the only difference being that the Turners are both out of print (though still cheaply available) and come in blue as well as red while the CARC decks are red only.  The CARC deck tuck boxes also have two card reveals, one printed in the tuck box and one printed in place of a standard UPC bar code on the bottom.  Both decks are made on Bee Casino grade stock using Air Cushion (standard) finish and are traditionally cut for easier shuffling and table faros.

The Ivory CARC Pro-Bikes, however, are a very different animal.  Because of the lack of dimples, the smooth stock is less pliable and significantly stiffer - they're a beast to shuffle, requiring a firm grip and strong hands.  I'd say get perhaps one or two Ivory if you get any at all, just to see how much you love or hate them, before investing in them by the brick.

Quote
I recently bought a brick of Ace Fulton (Blue + Red + Midnight Fulton deal) without knowing that they are all ivory! I was blinded by the deal and the brick box  :-[ Now I thinking if I should go and get a brick of the Orange + Brown from an ebayer to marry these Blue+Red...
May I also ask is there any decks from CARC that I should NOT buy please? (Bad quantity decks)

I personally haven't run into any really bum decks from CARC.  The director of CARC, Bill Kalush, has a reputation for being a real stickler for quality.  I'm personally fond of the Pro-Bikes and the Bee Erdnase Silver and Black Acorn Back in Ivory - it's the first (and as far as I know, only) smooth-finish deck to use Magic Finish.  In general, CARC doesn't use Magic Finish, but because this deck (and the two Air Cushion counterparts to it) had metallic ink, to not use it would have meant letting the deck's performance take a hit.

Quote
I like the "White Lions" stock (but not the back design) , they feel so good :) Is there any decks on the market in reasonable price similar to the Lions please?

For a quality practice deck, one that's even suitable for performance (be it for cardistry or for magic), there are some cheaper models that it would be hard to go wrong with.  For a deck with a firm feel but not as stiff as Bee Casino, try using Tally Ho, available in two colors and two back designs that are currently in print.  They're not as easy to obtain even in the US - USPC considers them a regional brand and as such, they're only sold in magic shops and within New York City - but they're reasonably priced and of good quality.  Many magicians and cardists swear by them.

If you'd like something with a more pliable, supple feel to it, try the Aristocrat 727 Banknote reprints.  The Aristocrat stock used in this deck is a softer version of the stock used in the Tally Hos.

If you're looking for something in-between, believe it or not, late-model Bicycle decks are good to work with.  If the quality control is a bother for you and you're willing to spend just a bit extra, the Crown Deck from the Blue Crown and HOPC uses the same stock, printed at Q1 and printed with Arrco faces - some hate these faces, while others like the "throwback" feel to them and how they're immediately recognizable but not yet another deck with USPC standard faces.  For a dash more performance, the NOC deck from HOPC should fit the bill nicely - another Bicycle stock deck, this one uses Magic Finish and is probably one of the cheapest decks on the market that does, though for some the minimalist design takes getting used to.  NOCs use USPC standard faces and, as a nod to magicians, come with two identical jokers and an extra Queen of Hearts.

Quote
May I also ask if you agree with the rating on this site please?
http://www.custom-playing-card.com/best.html
They rated Fournier 605 a 5 stars deck.
Would it be similar to Bicycle Tactical Field playing cards?

As far as the site - I've seen this site before.  These ratings, like any ratings, are highly subjective.  One man's gold is another man's garbage.

I'm very fond of the Fournier 605 deck and even had the pleasure of visiting Lee Asher at his home in Toronto earlier this year.  While Fournier was purchased in the past few decades by USPC, their manufacturing processes are nothing like what's used here by USPC.  Excellent registration from front to back, very precisely cut and the stock is so durable, well-made and well-finished, you can actually WASH the cards by briefly dunking them in water and wiping them down, something you'd never dare try with any USPC-made deck.  They're excellent for magic, card playing and doing flashy cuts.  However, like most smooth-surfaced decks, they don't fan very well at all.

Quote
May I ask one more thing please?
Have you came across this?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/REN-PLAYING-CARDS-limited-edition-RARE-like-MOTH-WATCHER-same-factory-made-/181014934967?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a2554b5b7&_uhb=1#ht_1906wt_1295
Is it as they stated from the same company of Moth and Watcher? MSM??

Thank you very much for your kind attention, Don!
Sorry for taking up your time!

Best regards,
Doris

Actually, Doris, I spotted that ad myself yesterday and was seriously tempted to make a purchase!

There's one issue that I have regarding that claim you mentioned.  Moth/Myth and the Watcher are both designed by "Misdirection's Mystery" (MSM), which as you know is a company based in Taiwan.  I recently spoke with Kete Moon asking him about this company and who does their printing.  Unfortunately, Kete informed me that MSM keeps the identity of their printer a closely-guarded industry secret and that he was not at liberty to reveal the name.

To me, unfortunately, that means this seller could claim the cards were made by the same printer, and I'd have no way of knowing whether the claim was true or false.  It's not the seller's fault, but it still doesn't make the claim any more provable.

If you do happen to get this deck, please, let me know what you think of it!
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Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #98 on: November 12, 2012, 03:04:11 AM »
 

DC

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Thank you so much Don for your well explained answers!

Sorry, I meant "quality" but typed "quantity"!

Now I would not buy a mix brick of Bicycle Professional, I will go mainly for Air-Cushion instead.
Thanks for pointed out "Richard Turner Gold Seal Bicycles" has TWO colours! I might go to the link that you posted earlier to get some Red + Blue. I will also give the Master Deck another go - will open another deck to see if this one clumps easily. (Just got some more with the Sultan Treasury decks today from E). Will start to play with a Crown deck to see. Most of the decks that I collected, I just opened ONE of them and see/enjoy the design but have not actually play with them, don't want to damage them!

Regarding the REN deck, will let you know when I got them. Just ordered some decks (Myth/Moth) from this EBayer, but I did not include the REN.

Thank you so much, Don, for taking your time to give me so much details on different decks!
 

Re: Playing Cards - "Fact or Fiction?" plus Weblinks
« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2012, 06:02:01 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Thank you so much Don for your well explained answers!

Sorry, I meant "quality" but typed "quantity"!

Now I would not buy a mix brick of Bicycle Professional, I will go mainly for Air-Cushion instead.
Thanks for pointed out "Richard Turner Gold Seal Bicycles" has TWO colours! I might go to the link that you posted earlier to get some Red + Blue. I will also give the Master Deck another go - will open another deck to see if this one clumps easily. (Just got some more with the Sultan Treasury decks today from E). Will start to play with a Crown deck to see. Most of the decks that I collected, I just opened ONE of them and see/enjoy the design but have not actually play with them, don't want to damage them!

Regarding the REN deck, will let you know when I got them. Just ordered some decks (Myth/Moth) from this EBayer, but I did not include the REN.

Thank you so much, Don, for taking your time to give me so much details on different decks!

Hey, don't sweat it.

If I recall, Alex has said that Gold Seal Bicycles are all that he practices with.  Despite being out of print, they're still fairly common and only slightly more expensive than a pack of Standards here in the States.

If you're getting your Masters direct from E with your order of the Treasury Edition of Sultan Republic, then it's nearly guaranteed that you'll be getting the latest version of those decks: Bee Casino stock and Magic Finish.  BTW: E did an excellent job with the Treasury Edition; despite adding the weathered look like the Series 1800 decks, they still remain completely symmetrical (1800s have an obvious one-way back due to the irregular placement of the stain/dirt effects).

Keep me posted on that REN deck - I'm still very tempted to get it myself!
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