What's more important to you? Box or faces?

[Masque]

Maybe the choices are an extreme example, but I suspect this information might be interesting to us.

[Don Boyer]

Easy choice.  I play with the cards, not the box.  One of the most valuable decks on the market today was boxed in a plain white tuck case with a window in it.

[John B.]

i guess it comes down to do you judge a book by its cover? i prefer whats inside since thats what im using, a box is nice but then i dont want to damage it and so i never carry the deck around, i would prefer a crappy box with awesome cards.

[dmbaggs]

I can easily say the cards are what matter. I collect playing cards for the cards not the box.


I still appreciate a good box though. I would easily buy 1 deck of Monarchs because I love the box. It's an amazing work of art, but the cards are lacking. I wouldn't stock up on it by any means, but I would easily buy one because I love the box.

[loldudex2]

To go with the old-school cliché, it's on the inside that counts. Plus, although I love crazy detailed boxes, such as the Monarchs, for some reason I find the Black Crown boxes superior.

[Derek]

I only got the monarchs and steampunk decks for the boxes. I think the Infinity is one of the only decks that has an amazing box and amazing cards...

[KPopFever605]

Because I don't play with the cards much for magic or flourishing, I specifically look at the box of a deck before buying it, making it more precious. To me, the face cards are just an added bonus. In addition, the boxes are a way for me to limit myself from over-buying every deck.

[xela]

Amazing boxes are simple to make. Some of you may know I'm creating multiple decks at the same time. Well, the box for each one generally takes me several hours to make. A single court card takes me twice that amount.

Anyone that ever releases a deck with standard faces is lazy and put no effort into the product.

That being said, the box is the most fun aspect to design for me, since I am a nut for packaging.

[dmbaggs]

@Alex what about the Mana deck, standard faces but recolored court cards. What's your opinion on that deck? no effort

[Evan]

@Alex what about the Mana deck, standard faces but recolored court cards. What's your opinion on that deck? no effort

In my opinion, the court cards are beautiful. They may be only recolored but they look awesome and the color choice is really nice. SO I wouldn't say "no effort"

[dmbaggs]

@Alex what about the Mana deck, standard faces but recolored court cards. What's your opinion on that deck? no effort

In my opinion, the court cards are beautiful. They may be only recolored but they look awesome and the color choice is really nice. SO I wouldn't say "no effort"

Yeah that's what I think as well. A lot of people would also agree, but Alex's last comment kind of goes against the deck, so I was wondering what he thought.

[Kanped]

I think sometimes decks can be worth buying for the box alone but that's just for collectors, not magicians, flourishers etc.  Often, the box will end up staying sealed anyway, so why not?  I would say that the cards matter a good deal more, but if the design of either is good enough, it'll be worth buying (it would need to be a pretty god damn impressive box design, though;  I didn't buy any Monarchs, if the box was good enough, I may have).

[xela]

Well I don't know too much about the Mana deck, but if they use standard but recolored court cards, that's still the no-effort, lazy way out. Recoloring takes a few minutes, and even an amazing recoloring job takes an hour or two, max.

I'm guilty of the shortcut myself on the Vortex. I launched the campaign without doing custom court cards because it costs significantly more to do them. Then, a few days before the Kickstarter, I opted for recolored court cards. I hated them, and went for a modified, standard court card look, which took me over a month to do. Time constraints forced me into a corner. However, that does not change the fact that had I gone for full on custom court cards, the deck would have been far better.

Now I am going for custom court cards and no surprise it's taking a lot longer to get a single card done. Look at the Seasons deck. Doing custom court cards pushed back the launch by months and months.

You want to tell me the Mana deck has anywhere near the amount of effort put into it that the Seasons does? You'd be mistaken by man hours, and I would argue by looks.

You want to tell me the Mana deck wouldn't look better with custom court cards and faces? I'd argue you would once again be mistaken.

Take a look at the Galvanic deck - after Sean announced that he will be launching the next Kickstarter with custom faces, support for the deck went up.

Look at the Artifice and the Infinity decks, arguably some of the most gorgeous cards on the market right now. We all agree beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and many people may actually prefer the recolored court cards as opposed to custom ones. That's fine, and there is nothing wrong with thinking that way. However, facts are facts, and no custom court cards/faces is a lazy way out. It is also not art when you have a recolored deck. That's not a bad thing, far from every deck has to tout artistic integrity, but I wouldn't compare the Monarchs to the Infinity in terms of design any day. They are in a totally different ball game.

[Don Boyer]

It comes to me as no surprise to me that right now we're running about 3:1 cards over boxes.  As I see it, and this is just my personal opinion, not an attack on anyone in any way, but if you're buying a deck of cards just to have a pretty box wrapped in cellophane sitting on your shelf, you might as well be collecting bottle caps, crystal statues or Hummel figurines.

My joy in collecting cards is in actually handling them, playing card games, performing tricks, that sort of thing.  If I bought a board game, I'd want to play that as well, any chance I got, no matter how pretty the box is or isn't.  Some of the best early board games came in some of the most deadly-dull looking boxes you've ever seen - as did some early playing card decks as well.

As wonderful as the Monarch box may be, arguably the best card box of last year was the Black Crown because of its class and elegance - and the cards inside weren't too bad, either!  I would call it the best deck/box combination of last year, for sure.  In all its simplicity, it was terribly unique.

[Gunshy1]

It comes to me as no surprise to me that right now we're running about 3:1 cards over boxes.  As I see it, and this is just my personal opinion, not an attack on anyone in any way, but if you're buying a deck of cards just to have a pretty box wrapped in cellophane sitting on your shelf, you might as well be collecting bottle caps, crystal statues or Hummel figurines.

My joy in collecting cards is in actually handling them, playing card games, performing tricks, that sort of thing.  If I bought a board game, I'd want to play that as well, any chance I got, no matter how pretty the box is or isn't.  Some of the best early board games came in some of the most deadly-dull looking boxes you've ever seen - as did some early playing card decks as well.

As wonderful as the Monarch box may be, arguably the best card box of last year was the Black Crown because of its class and elegance - and the cards inside weren't too bad, either!  I would call it the best deck/box combination of last year, for sure.  In all its simplicity, it was terribly unique.

yes, but how awesome is it when a board game comes with an amazing insert that is actually useful and has an amazing box? (this is a joke to whoever loves boardgames as much as i do and understands the frustrations of not having a useful box insert)

at first, i really do appreciate a beautiful box, but after a short time boxes start to get beaten up from day to day use. the artifice box is amazing in my opinion. it has eye catching artwork, but it shows the pattern of the backs of the cards therefore keeping the focus on the cards instead of on the box.

having an amazing box is a only a plus if the cards inside are top of the line. if the cards are below par or even par it shows that somewhere down the line whoever made the deck's priorities were not in line.

[Derek]

I agree that if you buy cards just to keep them sealed and look at a pretty box, then it's like any other hobby such as stamp collection or Yugioh cards.. You buy it and don't use it, just to put it away in a collection. The neat thing about playing cards is you can use them! I'd love to have 2 packs of each deck and just use one and keep one in my collection to sell years down the road. That gets expensive though...

[Aaron]

I would have to say I like the faces more than the box, I love when I open a deck that has 100% custom faces, I spend like 10mins just looking at the faces when I get a new deck, I just go through an stare at the beautiful artwork. Although I do like when a deck has a beautiful box to look at.

[Masque]

I wasn't going to be -quite- as blunt as Alex about this…


…but I did plan to show this to the Dan and Dave team.  Subtle, perhaps, but I think it needs to be done.  Perhaps, say, on Monday!

[xela]

I wasn't going to be -quite- as blunt as Alex about this…


…but I did plan to show this to the Dan and Dave team.  Subtle, perhaps, but I think it needs to be done.  Perhaps, say, on Monday!

Their terrible sales lately reflect their efforts. I'm not going to trash them since, in the end, they never said any of their designs were "The pinnacle of design." 

[Don Boyer]

I agree that if you buy cards just to keep them sealed and look at a pretty box, then it's like any other hobby such as stamp collection or Yugioh cards.. You buy it and don't use it, just to put it away in a collection. The neat thing about playing cards is you can use them! I'd love to have 2 packs of each deck and just use one and keep one in my collection to sell years down the road. That gets expensive though...

That's EXACTLY what I do - I try getting duplicates of every deck I own.  There's only a few that I only own a single copy of.

I wasn't going to be -quite- as blunt as Alex about this…


…but I did plan to show this to the Dan and Dave team.  Subtle, perhaps, but I think it needs to be done.  Perhaps, say, on Monday!

Their terrible sales lately reflect their efforts. I'm not going to trash them since, in the end, they never said any of their designs were "The pinnacle of design." 

Hey, show it to the Theory11 team instead!  They're the ones who think an improved box qualifies as "version 2".  The Bucks do some custom work, but it's subtle - simplified court cards in the S&M series, a single curlicued pip in the Fulton's Clip Joint deck, that sort of thing.  But at least it shows some degree of effort and artistic vision.  I think the Monarchs were decent cards, but not by far the most mind-blowing thing on the market, and certainly not worth the hype T11 put into it.  The box was better than the cards, which is great - if you're in the box business...

The plainest deck E's come out with in the past year is LTD., and it still has some cool factor to it and some customization.  Those guys know how to make a CUSTOM deck, as opposed to a custom deck...  And say what you will about the Crown Deck - it was a cool design for a workhorse deck meant to be used, and the Arrco faces have seen little to no play outside of Arrco and Streamline decks.

[MrLukeCarroll]

It deffinetly has to be the faces that are more important than the box to me, especially as a magician the box is used for say the first 5 seconds merely to hold the cards together, once the box is emptied it is out of sight in my pocket until the end of my set. Where as the cards themselves are seen and used all the time.

[Derek]

I'd say 9.5/10 magicians would say the cards matter more. I'd also say 9.5/10 flourishers would say the cards matter more. Collectors are the only one's who I believe would think the box matters more...

[Don Boyer]

I'd say 9.5/10 magicians would say the cards matter more. I'd also say 9.5/10 flourishers would say the cards matter more. Collectors are the only one's who I believe would think the box matters more...

Very well put.  There are a few tricks that do utilize the deck box though, so it's more like 9 out of 10 magicians.  I have yet to see any flourishes that use the box... 

So - does this mean that T11 is more after the collector market than the magicians and cardists? 

[Derek]

I'd say 9.5/10 magicians would say the cards matter more. I'd also say 9.5/10 flourishers would say the cards matter more. Collectors are the only one's who I believe would think the box matters more...

So - does this mean that T11 is more after the collector market than the magicians and cardists? 

It appears so. I feel like they want to build up hype, so they create an awesome box and show it off. Give a couple glimpses of the cards and people love them automatically without thinking. Then when they get the cards and see how disappointing they are, they try to lie to themselves or just feel jipped. I showed the monarchs and steampunks to my sister who doesn't care about cards but she is an artist. She loved the boxes to death, and then i opened them and she was like wow... I could have done better..

[dmbaggs]

I only got the monarchs and steampunk decks for the boxes. I think the Infinity is one of the only decks that has an amazing box and amazing cards...

Going back to this quote. I would agree that the Infinity deck has a great box and cards, but not that it one of the only decks with both.


For example...

• White Lions Deck
• Black Crown Deck
• JAQK Deck
• Fulton's Clip Joint Deck
• LTD Deck
• Tungstene Deck (IMO)

These are just a few of the already released ones. You still have the Mana deck, Seasons deck, Revision1 deck, Vortex deck, Tendril deck, Americana deck, etc...

[Kanped]

I really only agree with you on the White Lions on that one, which is just an all-round great deck.  The box is pretty traditional, though; I mean, I love it but the design is precise and elegant rather than innovative and different, like the Infinities.  I haven't even seen the Black Crown; that ship sailed for me.  I don't like the JAQK deck, just generally and particularly not the box.  I do usually like the repeating diamond look but IMO on the cover of the box, it makes everything look off-kilter, like I'm only seeing a snippet of the design.  The logo (title) looks like it's just been stuck on top of the design, I would like to see it integrated better and work with the design.  The Fulton's box I quite like (especially the texture; terrible for durability but it feels nice and it works with the theme really well).  I think the cards themselves are pretty standard, I don't like the jokers and the quality is a real let-down.  I hate the LTD box; you can say 'elegant' all you want but bright red, to me, seems garish and the whole design is empty.  I really think people are fawning over these because they're expensive to get and because it's from the (generally brilliant) Ellusionist but they just seem very plain and bog-standard to me.  The back design's quite nice (I've seen similar and better; wait for the Harlequins, I think they'll fit that category) but that's about it for me.  Tungstene?  I hate the pip think; seems really gimmicky and ill thought out; being different for the sake of being different.  I LOVE the back design, though; the front of the box, not so much.  The typeface doesn't play well IMO and the whole thing just doesn't strike me as anything special.

Personally, I like S&M enough to put them in the great box&cards list... what else? (*scans collection*)

Well, Blue Crown decks so I guess the Black one is the same or better.
Karnival Dead Eyes (personal choice, a lot of people hate it)
Apex BOM (don't have one? GET ONE!)
Bee Squeezers (I love the Bee box, anyway but these kick it up a notch)
Ellusionist Ultra Gaff (thinking outside the box a bit bit I think you'll agree...)
Split Spades

[Derek]

I only got the monarchs and steampunk decks for the boxes. I think the Infinity is one of the only decks that has an amazing box and amazing cards...

Going back to this quote. I would agree that the Infinity deck has a great box and cards, but not that it one of the only decks with both.


For example...

• White Lions Deck
• Black Crown Deck
• JAQK Deck
• Fulton's Clip Joint Deck
• LTD Deck
• Tungstene Deck (IMO)

These are just a few of the already released ones. You still have the Mana deck, Seasons deck, Revision1 deck, Vortex deck, Tendril deck, Americana deck, etc...

I was just listing a couple. I agree on the white lions, but the black crowns in my experience handle like crap right out of the box and never got better for me. The backs are nice and the faces are basically standard. LTD box? I wouldn't classify that as a good looking box. JAQK is a cool box and I cant comment on the cards since I don't own them.

[moonexe]

I agree on the white lions, but the black crowns in my experience handle like crap right out of the box and never got better for me.

...Wait, what? Did I read that right? How many decks have you handled? It might have been a bad one...
What do you think of the Artifice handling? Normally it should be about the same.

[Derek]

I agree on the white lions, but the black crowns in my experience handle like crap right out of the box and never got better for me.

...Wait, what? Did I read that right? How many decks have you handled? It might have been a bad one...
What do you think of the Artifice handling? Normally it should be about the same.

I think it must be a bad deck. I know how to fan, trust me. And right out of the box they were clumping. I worked them in for hours and hours and they never improved. I may open another one but it'd nothing compared to the shadow masters, or even the artifice. the artifice has great handling IMO, and so do the blades, and white lions which i've handled.

[NathanCanadas]

I agree on the white lions, but the black crowns in my experience handle like crap right out of the box and never got better for me.

...Wait, what? Did I read that right? How many decks have you handled? It might have been a bad one...
What do you think of the Artifice handling? Normally it should be about the same.

I think it must be a bad deck. I know how to fan, trust me. And right out of the box they were clumping. I worked them in for hours and hours and they never improved. I may open another one but it'd nothing compared to the shadow masters, or even the artifice. the artifice has great handling IMO, and so do the blades, and white lions which i've handled.

Wow! Same thing about the Green Crown v2 for me. Weird!

[moonexe]

I may open another one but it'd nothing compared to the shadow masters, or even the artifice.

They have what seems to me like the same stock, and we know for a fact that the finish is the same. I would say they are, in fact, easily compared(Though in terms of design, I do prefer the Artifice.)
Mines don't clump at all - and no deck with magic finish should. I would say either you got a bad deck, or you had sweaty hands when you opened them(but that should be fixed with time, so the bad deck is more likely.)

[Don Boyer]

For all of you having the clumping issues with Magic Finish decks, have you tried using a bit of fanning powder?  It could improve the performance a lot.  If you don't have/can't find/can't afford fanning powder, a pure talc powder with no moisturizers in it would be a decent improvised substitute.

Also, humidity and temperature can affect the stock and finish - keep them moderately dry (not dessicated) at room temperature as much as possible.

[Derek]

I may open another one but it'd nothing compared to the shadow masters, or even the artifice.

They have what seems to me like the same stock, and we know for a fact that the finish is the same. I would say they are, in fact, easily compared(Though in terms of design, I do prefer the Artifice.)
Mines don't clump at all - and no deck with magic finish should. I would say either you got a bad deck, or you had sweaty hands when you opened them(but that should be fixed with time, so the bad deck is more likely.)

I washed my hands right before I used them. And I had no problems with the artifice deck. Not sure what's up but it just disappointed me. And I just took them out now about a month later and they are the same.

[Don Boyer]

I washed my hands right before I used them. And I had no problems with the artifice deck. Not sure what's up but it just disappointed me. And I just took them out now about a month later and they are the same.

Try the fanning powder.  It could make the difference in handling.  Either that or request an exchange from BC.