Author (Read 20548 times)

CBJ · « **Reply #25 on:** January 24, 2012, 07:24:13 PM »

BigBlindMedia writes:

"we are still working on untangling the printing issues with the KARNIVAL INFERNO DECK. but we are hopeful we can sort it out now. i have read some stuff online saying that we are doing it as a 'publicity stunt'. wish i was clever enough to have thought of that. karnival-inc - bringing satan to your second deal."

And another photo... (CLICK FOR LARGER PHOTO)

CBJ

Evan · « **Reply #26 on:** January 24, 2012, 07:26:50 PM »

That thing is creepy as hell! (no pun intended)
Lets just say, I won't be buying it.

I do think its pretty cool that the box looks like a book though

Aaron · « **Reply #27 on:** January 24, 2012, 08:51:45 PM »

I will not buy this deck, I can see why thay say there is satanic imagery and I dont think the USPCC should print it. In respose to the people talking about them printing pornographic decks, I personally dont think that is as bad as a deck with a bunch of satanic pictures and symbols. I dont think the porno deck is as bad because those decks as printed as a novelty for guys on their poker night, they are just a fun deck

dmbaggs · « **Reply #28 on:** January 24, 2012, 10:16:42 PM »

Haha yeah.... that's one hell of a box. I'm not going to get this one. Not my style.

Don Boyer · « **Reply #29 on:** January 25, 2012, 12:52:38 AM »

Quote from: Aaron on January 24, 2012, 08:51:45 PM

I will not buy this deck, I can see why thay say there is satanic imagery and I dont think the USPCC should print it. In respose to the people talking about them printing pornographic decks, I personally dont think that is as bad as a deck with a bunch of satanic pictures and symbols. I dont think the porno deck is as bad because those decks as printed as a novelty for guys on their poker night, they are just a fun deck

So, are you saying that allowing young men and teenage boys (who invariably get their hands on these things) to objectify women for their own pleasure is better than making a deck with imagery that would appeal mostly to neo-goths, metal heads and emo kids? (And me! I'm a sucker for goth-y/dark stuff, it's from my youth.)

I have my sincere doubts that this deck would convert a single person to the Church of Satan. At worst, it might give a little kid a bad dream, but this isn't exactly a kid-approved deck, no more than a porno deck would be. It's no better than the argument that Dungeons & Dragons encouraged devil worship among kids who played it. That game's been around now for nearly four decades - the argument was frivolous and groundless.

Gunshy1 · « **Reply #30 on:** January 25, 2012, 01:33:34 AM »

i say take the middle finger out of the joker and print the damned deck...

dmbaggs · « **Reply #31 on:** January 25, 2012, 02:02:53 AM »

Quote from: Gunshy1 on January 25, 2012, 01:33:34 AM

i say take the middle finger out of the joker and print the damned deck...

I say keep it in. haha It's not a big deal! I agree with what @Sabacc said. Sure, I don't love the deck but that's because it's not my taste. I think there isn't much wrong with the deck. I think there should be some freedom of speech in what they print.

Kanped · « **Reply #32 on:** January 25, 2012, 02:33:32 AM »

As has already been discussed in this thread, the imagery is NOT EVEN SATANIC. Look; the Church of Satan is not an old organization. It was founded in the 1960s and anything described as satanic worship before then was actually magick worship more akin to Wikka or Druidism; satan never entered the picture as satan is a Christian invention.

The images depicted in this deck are far older than it. In fact, in many ways the most 'Satanic' images in here are actually Christian images, depicting their mythology, drawn by Christian artists. I think all that stuff is really interesting personally (as evidenced by the above discussion with AceGambit) and anyone who disagrees is stuck in the warped mindset of a 12th Century inquisitor (I'm looking at you, American religious right).

Personally, I would describe the deck as historical and Gothic rather than satanic.

lordlupus · « **Reply #33 on:** January 25, 2012, 06:37:53 AM »

I truly enjoyed the discussion between Kanped and AceGambit. Thanks for opening my eyes to the greatness of Baphomet!

Oh, and I like the design of the Inferno deck. I will definitely add this to my collection.

AceGambit · « **Reply #34 on:** January 25, 2012, 09:05:52 AM »

Whether you hate or love BBM, or something in between, you have to acknowledge the symbolism in this deck as something that can really work wonders with some of the patter we use for card tricks. The deck is called the Inferno deck, I'm already imagining patter surrounding the ferryman Charon or some other story inspired by the Divine Comedy. Which, btw, if anyone here enjoys the imagery in this deck or how different religions view hell, check out Dante's Divine Comedy, it's old, but there are English translations out there which are quite good.

Imagine an ambitious card routine that involves a story about Dante's journey into purgatory and back again using this deck to tell the story. As a card magician, something I'm always looking for is a way to make the patter more real. A way to engage the audience in the stories you tell to go along with your tricks. There's a reason kids understand what they read better with picture books. Pictures help emphasize the stories we tell -- in the same way I can imagine this deck emphasizing some of the patter for a card routine.

I personally hope they DO print this deck -- as is. I know I will buy a few if they do. It would be the first deck BBM released that I deemed worthy of my money (as I don't as of yet own any of their decks).

Kanped · « **Reply #35 on:** January 25, 2012, 09:22:22 AM »

I'm seconding reading The Divine Comedy if you haven't. It's one of the greatest works of literature EVER and is a story of a man battling some very real demons. I'll admit, I've only read the Inferno part of it but it stands on its own as well as (presumably) as a complete work.

I wonder if it would do any good to state that I will buy this deck only if it is unaltered and uncompromising?

AceGambit · « **Reply #36 on:** January 25, 2012, 09:30:09 AM »

I too have only read the first part, I'd always wanted to read the other two, I just never got around to it. I'm thinking if they compromised on some of the artwork on this deck, and things were changed from the artists intent due to censorship or what have you, that would likely deter me from purchasing it as well. I don't think BBM has a presence in this forum, but that would be good information for them to know.

Dear BBM,

Do not compromise on your deck's artwork, your sales will suffer because of it.

Love,
All of Us

Kanped · « **Reply #37 on:** January 25, 2012, 09:53:24 AM »

I fired off an email to the USPCC to get their perspective or some sort of statement about it. We still don't know for sure that they point blank refused to print it. I don't know if BBM even realize that the images aren't Satanic so if I drop some medieval artwork knowledge, maybe the USPCC might reconsider. I mean, there's an argument to be had here. Religious sensibilities infringing on artistic expression? I want me some of that action!

sinsandman · « **Reply #38 on:** January 25, 2012, 10:23:46 PM »

I love this deck and everything surrounding it. We have people like Kanped who actually have the knowledge to support their views, people like Brown who don't bash it and just say "it's not my style", then others who think that their religious views should be shared by all and that if it strays from "christianity" then it should not exist. I mean...if I were 12 or 13 and living with my parents, I too might be thinking "oh my god, mommy would be pissed if she saw these cards..." If there were a deck coming out with crosses all over it (a cross being the murder weapon of Christ, mind you) would it catch this much heat? Probably not. Are we not right to our own religious views? Any way, I dig this deck. It needs to be printed NOW! How am I to properly praise Satan without this deck?

Gunshy1 · « **Reply #39 on:** January 25, 2012, 10:57:59 PM »

@sinsandman that shit was funny!!

i feel the USPCC should print the deck, i wouldnt buy it cause its not my style. however, the uspcc has the right to refuse whatever they want; they are their own business. just because we 'mericans have "free speech" doesn't mean everyone has to help express what we want.

Kanped · « **Reply #40 on:** January 26, 2012, 03:23:32 AM »

I think they're within their rights to refuse any customer for any reason HOWEVER, they are a company that prints cards. They are not an authority on taste, neither are they an arbiter of morality. In other words, while they have a right to refuse custom they have no responsibility to decide what to print; they're pretty much sticking their nose into an area that shouldn't concern them (taste and decency).

munro159 · « **Reply #41 on:** January 26, 2012, 03:27:57 AM »

While I might not necessarily agree with USPC's decision not to produce this deck period...I do understand why they wouldn't want to produce it under the Bicycle Brand. Bicycle is easily the most recognized playing card brand in America. While you or I might not care what they put on a deck of Bicycle playing cards, USPC isn't worried about "Moderate America". They are worried about Right/Left Wing America. Would a 13 or 14 year old become a satanist because of these cards...absolutely not. Would the same 13 or 14 year old's parents make a huge stink about these if they were Right-Wing Religous....absolutely. Most of Corporate America takes great pains to stay in the middle on most topics...especially anything that would get them bad press. While sadly like @Sabaac said we've already been through this before with RPG's...I'd been willing to bet some Moron would still make a huge stink about this.

What I don't understand is their unwillingness to meet on a middle ground and produce these as non-bicycle branded. Just produce these like the Dose and don't put Bicycle on the box. I'd be willing to bet if you took an average person, not a collector/magician/flourisher, and asked them who made a deck of DandD cards or even a deck of Tally's they would answer with whatever the name is on the box.

moonexe · « **Reply #42 on:** January 26, 2012, 05:17:55 AM »

http://chewmk.blogspot.com/2010/09/bicycle-alchemy-anne-stokes-playing.html
Nothing more to say.

AceGambit · « **Reply #43 on:** January 26, 2012, 08:45:38 AM »

Quote from: Moon.exe on January 26, 2012, 05:17:55 AM

http://chewmk.blogspot.com/2010/09/bicycle-alchemy-anne-stokes-playing.html
Nothing more to say.

While that deck has some dark imagery, Anne Stokes is a Gothic artist. Her artwork in the Alchemy deck hardly carries with it the same bold religious references that the Inferno deck presents. While one could argue by transition that the Alchemy deck does in fact have religious references, they are far more subtle than those of the Inferno deck, therefore, I think the Alchemy deck is a poor comparison for USPCC's decision on the Inferno deck. Additionally, what USPCC has done in the past by no means should absolutely dictate their decisions now. Say they HAD printed an entirely satanic deck in the past, and it went terrible for them, just cause they've done it before doesn't mean they should or want to do it again.

USPCC is a private company, therefore they have the right to refuse service to a customer on pretty much whatever grounds they want to. If USPCC's PR guys think that printing the Inferno deck will give them unwanted bad press, they are entitled to be wrong, but that's their choice.

As far as BBM is concerned, I think USPCC's decision should not dissuade them from producing this deck. It's the best one I've seen in the Karnival series yet, and I want to see it printed.

Kanped · « **Reply #44 on:** January 26, 2012, 10:08:22 AM »

There's something really weird about the USPCC having 'PR guys'. IMO, they should be entirely technical and should not need any kind of publicity; it's not like they have competition. Their brands on the other hand, could have PR people but not USPCC itself. Airbrush out (or, even better, put a black mark over) where it says 'Bicycle' and print that sh...tuff!

AceGambit · « **Reply #45 on:** January 26, 2012, 10:42:28 AM »

Quote from: Kanped on January 26, 2012, 10:08:22 AM

There's something really weird about the USPCC having 'PR guys'. IMO, they should be entirely technical and should not need any kind of publicity; it's not like they have competition.

What do you mean? TJX as a company has PR guys, even though they are nothing more than the corporate offices behind TJ Maxx, Marshalls, and Home Goods. While they care about the image of their stores with respect to their consumers, TJX cares about the image of it's corporation as a whole with respect to investors and whatnot. It's a different kind of PR, but it's still PR.

USPCC should be the same way; they care about the publicity of their brands with respect to the consumers, but as far as investors are concerned, USPCC cares about what they look like as a company, the kinds of important decisions they make matter to people who are buying/selling their stocks. Choosing to (or not to) print a deck reflects on the company as a whole, and that's an important consideration for PR from a corporate stance.

I am in no way affiliated with TJX corp, that was just an example

Kanped · « **Reply #46 on:** January 26, 2012, 11:19:50 AM »

I'm just of the impression that investors and customers at a trade level should be interested only in figures, which accountants provide. I think spin-doctoring at that level is total BS that's no good to anyone. If you're not going to me methodical, critical and technical about your investment and instead like big speeches and flashy diagrams, don't invest.

Don Boyer · « **Reply #47 on:** January 26, 2012, 03:20:08 PM »

There's a small detail we've been leaving out in all of this debate.

It's not simply USPC anymore - it's Jarden Consumer Products. USPC's been a subsidiary of this big conglomerate now for nearly a decade. Jarden is far more business-oriented than tradition-oriented or customer-oriented. It was under their watch that the USPC playing card museum was shut down. Ye olde USPC might have had no issues on this subject, but as a division of a larger company, they have other issues to contend with than simply what they want to do.

CBJ · « **Reply #48 on:** January 26, 2012, 05:24:06 PM »

Hey guys

Owen from BigBlindMedia wrote to me today...

"karnival dead eyes, karnival assassins and karnival dose (redux) are all released from feb 20. they might appear earlier in some stores (esp. in the USA), as certain wholesalers have them there already. the dead eyes and assassins are in a limited edition rainbow foil tuckcase, and the Dose Deck has a redesigned back with a non-oneway image.

we are also working on the karnival inferno (as i know you folks are aware). once we have worked through the issue with potential satanic imagery we should be good to get that out in the summer."

Just passing it along

CBJ

AceGambit · « **Reply #49 on:** January 26, 2012, 05:31:15 PM »

Quote from: Owen from BigBlindMedia

we are also working on the karnival inferno (as i know you folks are aware). once we have worked through the issue with potential satanic imagery we should be good to get that out in the summer."

Boy do I hope that "worked through the issue" means "bent them over and convinced them to print the damn deck anyway."