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Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More

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Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More
« on: March 07, 2014, 08:35:18 PM »
 

CthulhuWho1

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I'm too close to my own project, and I've decided to ask for advice from The Group Mind here...

While working on the design for my first deck (being laid out as a Bicycle deck for Kickstarter), I've found there are two things I'm having trouble making a final decision over...  The final name for my deck (which I'm not ready to describe just yet, other than to say it will be traditional, but very colorful, and very usable for magic, for Lefties too!), and, as mentioned above, which reveals to include, and where I want them in the deck.

My initial plan was to have one Joker showing a card back, and the other Joker showing a card value, such as, a Seven over a Heart; which would help create a routine where it would look like the Joker turned the card over.

Another option I've considered is having each Joker revealing a different card, providing more options for the Cardician using the deck.

I've also considered placing a card reveal in the empty hand of a Court card (see a standard Bicycle King of Diamonds for a great empty-hand example), but I wasn't sure how well this would be received; even though I love the idea of forcing a revealed card on a spectator, and then saying, "Is this your card?"  And being able to say, "Oh, wait a minute, this card is trying to show me your card is actually a (revealed card)...

I also want to include a reveal or two on the Tuck Case too; so let your thoughts be heard here.

What cards would you like to have as Reveals in a deck or on a Tuck Case, and where would you like to see them placed for best effect, advantage and usefulness?

In a somewhat related way, I want to include two extra useful cards in this deck, rather than two advertising cards, and I'm not really sure whether most people just want another Double-Backer, or Blank-Faced Card, or perhaps since I have plans for a Blue-Backed deck, a later Red-Backed deck, and an even later Black-Backed deck, a Blue/Red card, a Blue/Black, or a Red/Black card might make more sense.

I'm also very open to the idea of just including four Joker Cards; with each one showing a different reveal to increase the force-card options for the deck.

Working on the design of my first deck, even with my wife giving creative suggestions over my shoulder, has been fun and easy compared to making the above choices that I want to be fun and useful for everyone.

But I'm also aware of all of the upcoming Emails, Costs (Kickstarter, Backerkit, Amazon, Packaging and Postage, USPCC, Taxes), Pre-Planning, Purchases, Time (I'm so glad I got early retirement!), and Work that I have ahead of me to make this deck a reality; but right now, I'm focusing on the fun of the creative side.

Thanks in Advance for any thoughts you are willing to share!

Will Hart
aka CthulhuWho1
Google CthulhuWho1 to see some of my many Flickr, YouTube, and Blog activities; and help yourself to my stuff!
 

Re: Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2014, 09:48:21 PM »
 

Daniel Wilson

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I've also considered placing a card reveal in the empty hand of a Court card (see a standard Bicycle King of Diamonds for a great empty-hand example), but I wasn't sure how well this would be received; even though I love the idea of forcing a revealed card on a spectator, and then saying, "Is this your card?"  And being able to say, "Oh, wait a minute, this card is trying to show me your card is actually a (revealed card)...

Believe I've seen/heard a similar one before: Bicycle-style Queen of Spades ultimately "forcing" the Six of Spades.

As for extra cards: three Jokers (one "normal", two showing different force cards); one double-backer.  Don't introduce
color-change double backers until you actually print the second color of your deck.

Tuck reveals: I've always been partial to the false bar code.  Something on the flap would be cool too.

 

Re: Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2014, 10:13:09 PM »
 

John B.

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I say One normal joker, one with the reveal, one blank card, and one 2 color double backer. I have only 2 decks that use that and I absoulty love having it for one of the effects that I perform. dont have a reveal on the face. It can be nice but you can have to much going on there. Focus on making them beautiful pieces of art.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2014, 01:36:57 AM »
 

CthulhuWho1

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Daniel,

Great input!  Thank You!

I was originally thinking that a Blue/Red Back card would encourage people to go for the second deck, but your suggestion on this was spot on.  If I get to put out the second deck, I'll include it there first!

I'll also look into a false bar code while I ponder the best choices for the flaps.

Will

I've also considered placing a card reveal in the empty hand of a Court card (see a standard Bicycle King of Diamonds for a great empty-hand example), but I wasn't sure how well this would be received; even though I love the idea of forcing a revealed card on a spectator, and then saying, "Is this your card?"  And being able to say, "Oh, wait a minute, this card is trying to show me your card is actually a (revealed card)...

Believe I've seen/heard a similar one before: Bicycle-style Queen of Spades ultimately "forcing" the Six of Spades.

As for extra cards: three Jokers (one "normal", two showing different force cards); one double-backer.  Don't introduce
color-change double backers until you actually print the second color of your deck.

Tuck reveals: I've always been partial to the false bar code.  Something on the flap would be cool too.
 

Re: Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2014, 01:40:00 AM »
 

CthulhuWho1

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John,

You are my first vote for a Double-Backer, so I'm counting your vote!

Thank you for the input!

I'm going to have to look through my decks to see how many have the combo you like too.

Will Hart

I say One normal joker, one with the reveal, one blank card, and one 2 color double backer. I have only 2 decks that use that and I absoulty love having it for one of the effects that I perform. dont have a reveal on the face. It can be nice but you can have to much going on there. Focus on making them beautiful pieces of art.
 

Re: Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2014, 03:40:21 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I've seen a variety of reveals and ideas for gaff cards.  I'll list some, with my opinions.


Double-backer - utility, useful, though not terrifically exciting.

Double-backer in two colors - see above.

Blank facer - I never found this as useful, though I'm told there are uses for it.

Barcode reveal - it's become a little staid and overused.

Tuck flap reveal - ditto.

QR code reveal - very intriguing, high-tech method for a reveal.  Magician - or spectator! - uses their smartphone QR code reader app to unveil the code, a URL for a website that gives the reveal, whatever that reveal may be.  Completely undetectable as a reveal until scanned.  An alternate use would be to reveal a phone number, which when called plays an voicemail message that sounds totally normal until you reveal the predicted card verbally.  (This would require setting up a voicemail number that only plays an outgoing message, but some magicians will do that and more for a great trick.)

Joker reveals - we've all seen the jokers where one has a card back in hand and the next one has the card face, giving a reveal.  It's become too common.  I like what was done for a few other decks, most notably the Arcane deck - the second Joker has the word "Joker" replaced with "3hearts" in a font style that conceals the change.  I recently suggested one to someone who had "THE ARTS" beneath a joker head in his deck design: change the first T to a 7 and fiddle with the spacing a bit and you have "7HEARTS".  These have a higher degree of subtlety but at the same time a strong visual impact on the spectator, who's now blinking his eyes to see if his vision is off somehow.

Court reveals - depending on how you execute your design, you can insert a reveal into the clothing of a court card's complex garments.  I have some White Lions gaff cards where David Blaine does something to this effect.  You could probably also do it to an elaborate Ace.  It's not a bad idea to do such reveals on extra cards such as a duplicate Ace of Spades rather than the cards in the deck itself - it might be off-putting for someone to use, for example, at their poker table.

Utility card - This will sound silly, but it's true.  One of my favorite extra cards in a pack was the extras included in NOC, NOC 2.0, Altruism and Altruism Snow Owl Edition.  Although it was accidental in the case of the Altruism decks, each deck listed had either an extra Queen of Hearts or an extra Two of Hearts.  There are a lot of tricks that rely on using two identical cards to pull something over on a spectator, one of the most common being the famous card switch - spectator holds one card trapped between his hands, you hold another, you wave your card around his hand, hocus pocus, you make them switch places.  I find that I'm often doing this with Jokers, but most people already know that most decks have two Jokers.  Doing it with a different card from the deck (perhaps even something more humble, like a 5 of Clubs or something equally as popular) will help sell the trick more effectively.

Other, more specialized gaff cards can be used:
The 11 of Hearts is popular.  (You can increase the number to as high as perhaps 14 or 15 and change the suit as desired.)
Similar to this, though best used in pairs: the classic 3-and-a-half of Clubs (perhaps you could update it to a different value and/or suit?).
A card that has your back and a different Ace, such as the Bicycle Ace, is possible.
Bicycle Masters decks in red and blue often came with a Ghost Ace of Spades, front and back.
A similarly-useful card would be a double backer with your design on one side and a common design on the other, such as Bicycle Rider Back, Bicycle Maiden Back, Bee Diamond Back, etc.
A "smeared" card, smudged as though the ink was still wet.
A "broken" card, with the pips and indices knocked loose and fallen to one edge of the card.
A "blurred" card, intentionally printed to appear out of focus no matter how good your eyes are.  (Great when performing for drunks!)
A "twisted" card, where the card appears to have been rotated too hard around a central axis, causing the image to twist and distort.
Double-faced cards - for example, a set of three non-spade Aces on one side, which becomes three indifferent cards when turned over.
Double-indexed cards - from one index corner it looks like an Ace; from the other, it looks like a 3 or a 2, or a card that's a King of Clubs in one corner, a King of Spades in the other (often paired with a similarly tricked-out red King with both red suits).
A "traveling pip" card pair, with one common example being a 4-card with five pips on it and a 5-card of the same suit with four pips on it.  Diamonds tend to be better for this since there's no worries about one of the cards being rotated the opposite direction from the other.

There's so many more, I could probably write a book on the topic...but this should give you an idea of the variety of cards and reveals you can play with in your deck.  Need more ideas?  Poke around a magic shop, either online or in person, and see what they're offering.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 03:44:52 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2014, 12:28:37 PM »
 

CthulhuWho1

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Don,

   Thank You for all of your ideas and thoughts on this matter!

   You've given me even more to consider than I already had!

   While I'm still working on my Court Cards, I'll be pondering until the last possible moment how I will deal with the four cards that are above and beyond the 52 of the basic deck; that and still dreaming nightly over what name this deck will be published under...

   But, in many ways, these questions and possibilities are a great part of the fun of working on the creation of a special deck!

   Will Hart

I've seen a variety of reveals and ideas for gaff cards.  I'll list some, with my opinions.


Double-backer - utility, useful, though not terrifically exciting.

Double-backer in two colors - see above.

Blank facer - I never found this as useful, though I'm told there are uses for it.

Barcode reveal - it's become a little staid and overused.

Tuck flap reveal - ditto.

QR code reveal - very intriguing, high-tech method for a reveal.  Magician - or spectator! - uses their smartphone QR code reader app to unveil the code, a URL for a website that gives the reveal, whatever that reveal may be.  Completely undetectable as a reveal until scanned.  An alternate use would be to reveal a phone number, which when called plays an voicemail message that sounds totally normal until you reveal the predicted card verbally.  (This would require setting up a voicemail number that only plays an outgoing message, but some magicians will do that and more for a great trick.)

Joker reveals - we've all seen the jokers where one has a card back in hand and the next one has the card face, giving a reveal.  It's become too common.  I like what was done for a few other decks, most notably the Arcane deck - the second Joker has the word "Joker" replaced with "3hearts" in a font style that conceals the change.  I recently suggested one to someone who had "THE ARTS" beneath a joker head in his deck design: change the first T to a 7 and fiddle with the spacing a bit and you have "7HEARTS".  These have a higher degree of subtlety but at the same time a strong visual impact on the spectator, who's now blinking his eyes to see if his vision is off somehow.

Court reveals - depending on how you execute your design, you can insert a reveal into the clothing of a court card's complex garments.  I have some White Lions gaff cards where David Blaine does something to this effect.  You could probably also do it to an elaborate Ace.  It's not a bad idea to do such reveals on extra cards such as a duplicate Ace of Spades rather than the cards in the deck itself - it might be off-putting for someone to use, for example, at their poker table.

Utility card - This will sound silly, but it's true.  One of my favorite extra cards in a pack was the extras included in NOC, NOC 2.0, Altruism and Altruism Snow Owl Edition.  Although it was accidental in the case of the Altruism decks, each deck listed had either an extra Queen of Hearts or an extra Two of Hearts.  There are a lot of tricks that rely on using two identical cards to pull something over on a spectator, one of the most common being the famous card switch - spectator holds one card trapped between his hands, you hold another, you wave your card around his hand, hocus pocus, you make them switch places.  I find that I'm often doing this with Jokers, but most people already know that most decks have two Jokers.  Doing it with a different card from the deck (perhaps even something more humble, like a 5 of Clubs or something equally as popular) will help sell the trick more effectively.

Other, more specialized gaff cards can be used:
The 11 of Hearts is popular.  (You can increase the number to as high as perhaps 14 or 15 and change the suit as desired.)
Similar to this, though best used in pairs: the classic 3-and-a-half of Clubs (perhaps you could update it to a different value and/or suit?).
A card that has your back and a different Ace, such as the Bicycle Ace, is possible.
Bicycle Masters decks in red and blue often came with a Ghost Ace of Spades, front and back.
A similarly-useful card would be a double backer with your design on one side and a common design on the other, such as Bicycle Rider Back, Bicycle Maiden Back, Bee Diamond Back, etc.
A "smeared" card, smudged as though the ink was still wet.
A "broken" card, with the pips and indices knocked loose and fallen to one edge of the card.
A "blurred" card, intentionally printed to appear out of focus no matter how good your eyes are.  (Great when performing for drunks!)
A "twisted" card, where the card appears to have been rotated too hard around a central axis, causing the image to twist and distort.
Double-faced cards - for example, a set of three non-spade Aces on one side, which becomes three indifferent cards when turned over.
Double-indexed cards - from one index corner it looks like an Ace; from the other, it looks like a 3 or a 2, or a card that's a King of Clubs in one corner, a King of Spades in the other (often paired with a similarly tricked-out red King with both red suits).
A "traveling pip" card pair, with one common example being a 4-card with five pips on it and a 5-card of the same suit with four pips on it.  Diamonds tend to be better for this since there's no worries about one of the cards being rotated the opposite direction from the other.

There's so many more, I could probably write a book on the topic...but this should give you an idea of the variety of cards and reveals you can play with in your deck.  Need more ideas?  Poke around a magic shop, either online or in person, and see what they're offering.
 

Re: Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2014, 01:22:09 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Don,

   Thank You for all of your ideas and thoughts on this matter!

   You've given me even more to consider than I already had!

   While I'm still working on my Court Cards, I'll be pondering until the last possible moment how I will deal with the four cards that are above and beyond the 52 of the basic deck; that and still dreaming nightly over what name this deck will be published under...

   But, in many ways, these questions and possibilities are a great part of the fun of working on the creation of a special deck!

   Will Hart

Don't sweat the naming too much.  If you're talking about branding, however - don't sweat that too much, either!

Some people will intentionally pay extra to give their deck the Bicycle brand name, regardless of the deck's theme - the reason being that there are collectors that specialize in the brand and who will collect EVERY deck, no matter how bad, sold under the Bicycle brand name, and no others.  Fortunately, there's only so many of those collectors out there!  Most are more open in the decks they choose to buy.

Pick another brand, like Bee, Tally Ho, Aviator, Hoyle, etc. - you'll still pay extra, though maybe not as much.  Regardless of the name chosen, it does require approval from the brand manager for that brand.

Some people "build a better mousetrap" - they make a deck that's is high-enough quality and beautiful enough that it can stand on its own without the assist of a pre-existing USPC brand name.  They save the extra cost and put the savings into their pockets or into extra features for the deck, like an embossed box, metallic inks, etc.  There are designers out there who haven't made a single deck under a USPC brand - and many of them would probably tell you that they never will, either.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if your deck is good enough, you could give it practically any name other than "Excrement", without a USPC brand attached, and it will sell just fine.
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Re: Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2014, 02:25:42 PM »
 

CthulhuWho1

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Don,

   My actual personal favorite daily-use cards are black Tally-Ho original fan-backs; hands-down!

   But as a card lover and collector, I know that the name, "Bicycle" has, for as long as I can remember in my senior brain, been the most famous brand of playing cards; even though I know that the USPCC has been behind the majority of all of the brands I've purchased over the last few decades.

   So, knowing that I only (currently) have one deck design in my head (Blue Backs to start with, then Red Backs and Black Backs if there is enough interest), I'd just get a personal kick out of holding a Bicycle deck in my hand, that I had designed.

   And even though I see where Jackson Robinson and others are able to offer branded and unbranded decks, that sounds like a dream/nightmare situation of logistics; so I'll take this adventure slowly, one deck at a time and see what happens.

   While I'm working on my deck, I'm also studying past Kickstarter playing card projects, with a special focus on their updates; so I can see what others have done wrong, and hopefully learn from their mistakes.

   I'm also studying all of the great online advice on every aspect of how to run a great project; so I can produce a quality product in a timely fashion.

   Speaking of studying others experiences, I'm amazed at just how many people, months after having a successful project, are still working on their artwork, or still trying to get their cards printed!

   My promise to myself, is that I won't start a Kickstarter campaign, until all of my artwork is finished and approved by Tiffany Mahan (USPCC), my printing quotes are in-hand, my Stamps.com postage system is set up, my playing card deck Facebook page is up and running, my packaging materials have been quoted and ready to ship to me, my financial record system is ready for tracking everything related to this project, my entire patio is prepared as a playing card workroom for the wife and I, and that I fully understand the Backerkit system, and how I will integrate all of my Kickstarter information with Excel and other software.  I might even set up a new account at Amazon, and with my bank, just to keep everything related to the project separate from the rest of my life; even to the point of setting it all up as a business for tax purposes.

   So obviously, I am thinking of more than just art, reveals, and branding...  This stuff really gets deep doesn't it?

   Are we having fun yet?

   Will Hart
   
 

Re: Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 01:45:50 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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You sounds exceptionally well-equipped and serious - very good signs!

The only thing I could add would be that while having the design 100% locked down and ready is great, be receptive to hearing suggestions from backers that may improve the design and prepared to act on the suggestions should you be in agreement with them.  Your end result could be the better for it and backers love creators who are open to new ideas, generating name-brand loyalty to your name and not just to "Bicycle"!
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Re: Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 11:15:47 AM »
 

CthulhuWho1

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I will be fully open to suggestions from the USPCC and the Playing Card Forum folks too!

After all, I'm trying to create something that everyone will want to have, and to use also!

Will Hart
 

Re: Card Reveal Preferences for a New Deck for Magic and More
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 11:42:43 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I will be fully open to suggestions from the USPCC and the Playing Card Forum folks too!

After all, I'm trying to create something that everyone will want to have, and to use also!

Will Hart

The only guidance you're likely to receive from USPC will be in terms of conforming to their print standards (though like many standards, they're prone to the occasional change).  The Legal Dept. will possibly chime on, should your design be deemed as in some way infringing upon or altering their trademarks and copyrights.

You should be at least willing to consider print alternatives.  The best I could suggest as of this moment would be the Expert Playing Card Company - Bill Kalush's new company, developed as he ran (and continues to run) the Conjuring Arts Research Center here in New York.  They have a "secret" printer they use in Taiwan that people absolutely love - their decks either meet or exceed the quality USPC is putting out today.  The interesting thing is that these decks actually IMPROVE over time instead of degrading after two weeks or less of steady handling.  I couldn't recommend them to you enough.  Better still, EPCC can usually undercut USPC's pricing.

Bill Kalush is a member here, board name is "WKalush".
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:45:00 PM by Don Boyer »
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