4 Jokers - Designers Wanted

[Alex Willis]

I was pushing together a deck for a game I call 4 Jokers.  The game play isn't as smooth as i'd like and I am finding very little interest in card games themselves.  It seems the comic book and specialty gaming stores are more interested in collector cards (yawn).  One guy looked over the game and said, "I love the jokers, do you have a set of those?"  Um... I have 4.  But then I had an idea, and before I get too far down the road on my own, I thought it would be fitting to call the deck 'Four Jokers' and have it be an all 'Joker' deck in keeping with a carnival type theme perhaps.  And each suit would represent a different type of Joker:
Classic/Vintage, Risque, Dark/Sinister, Comical/Romantic.  Now, it doesn't make sense for one joker to design the entire deck, so I wondered if any designers would be interested in collaborating and volunteering to be one of the other 'Jokers' (4 Joker Types, 4 Suits, 4 Creators).  I don't want to give too much away, but I have.  So I'm taking names, who's game?

[xela]

I get the Joker deck bit, and that sounds like a neat idea.

What of the comic book guy? Elaborate please. Is there an untapped market here?

[Alex Willis]

What of the comic book guy? Elaborate please. Is there an untapped market here?

Wizards of the Coast in their heyday sold everything from collecting cards to specialty games.  Playing cards never much made it there because they were never really unique enough.  Some of the decks coming out today would have done well in those venues, in their place are tons of comic book and video game stores that like small unique products that they can put by the register for impulse buyers.  I meet up with a lot of these guys at the national gaming convention here in Lancaster PA this fall and at the Philadelphia Comicon at the end of this month.  I can field them to see what they think about carrying a Joker deck.

[Collector]

The deck with 52 different jokers will be cool. Number cards - semi-transformation cards - pips incorporated into costumes. Two different Aces of Spades instead of two Jokers
Maybe this will be helpful
http://playingcardcollector.wordpress.com/category/joker/

[Alex Willis]

The deck with 52 different jokers will be cool. Number cards - semi-transformation cards - pips incorporated into costumes. Two different Aces of Spades instead of two Jokers
Maybe this will be helpful
http://playingcardcollector.wordpress.com/category/joker/

Those are some cool jokers and plants some pretty heavy seeds in my designing mind... hmmm.  And I like the idea of two aces of spades, as jokers in a joker deck would be redundant.  To be honest I almost took this off my project list as I've gotten so little interest.  I still like the idea of a coordinated effort deck with 4 illustrators doing the work (call it the four horsemen of the apocolypse or just the Four jokers who created the joker deck).  I like the idea of having a design continuity within a suit, but also having a design variety between the suits (while maintaining some artistic continuity).  And the idea of making it a transformation deck is very appealing, espeically in light of Emmanuel is doing, I love his work.  I wonder if he'd be interested in being one of the joker designers...

[Don Boyer]

The deck with 52 different jokers will be cool. Number cards - semi-transformation cards - pips incorporated into costumes. Two different Aces of Spades instead of two Jokers
Maybe this will be helpful
http://playingcardcollector.wordpress.com/category/joker/

Those are some cool jokers and plants some pretty heavy seeds in my designing mind... hmmm.  And I like the idea of two aces of spades, as jokers in a joker deck would be redundant.  To be honest I almost took this off my project list as I've gotten so little interest.  I still like the idea of a coordinated effort deck with 4 illustrators doing the work (call it the four horsemen of the apocolypse or just the Four jokers who created the joker deck).  I like the idea of having a design continuity within a suit, but also having a design variety between the suits (while maintaining some artistic continuity).  And the idea of making it a transformation deck is very appealing, espeically in light of Emmanuel is doing, I love his work.  I wonder if he'd be interested in being one of the joker designers...

This is definitely one of the more unique and interesting design ideas I've heard in a while.  I like it.

Your joker deck will need jokers.  Make them the "straight men" of the deck, all elegant and dull.  A banker in a suit!

Four designers, each covering a suit - I like it a LOT.  Just make the basic "framework" consistent - identical index styles, things like that.

[Alex Willis]

This is definitely one of the more unique and interesting design ideas I've heard in a while.  I like it.

Your joker deck will need jokers.  Make them the "straight men" of the deck, all elegant and dull.  A banker in a suit!

Four designers, each covering a suit - I like it a LOT.  Just make the basic "framework" consistent - identical index styles, things like that.

You see, that's why I come here.  I like the idea of straight men as the Jokers.  I intend on providing the plain deck to the designers who will then incorporate them into their designs like a transformation deck.  So I've got one, me who is willing to do 13 of one suit and the jokers and back.  I need three more designers, who I'd rather not commission, but if i have to I will.

Card back considerations.  I want to do a harlequin back, as a jest to the diamond back. 

[Collector]

I don't like (understand) that element in the center of the back design.

Maybe you should communicate with Crisan Rosu.

Shutterstock: Jokers by Crisan Rosu
http://playingcardcollector.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/shutterstock-jokers-by-crisan-rosu/

[Don Boyer]

I don't like (understand) that element in the center of the back design.

I think he's referring to the diamond pattern of the traditional Harlequin suit and how that pattern covering the card back would be interesting in contrast with the Bee Diamond Back pattern.

[Alex Willis]

I don't like (understand) that element in the center of the back design.

I think he's referring to the diamond pattern of the traditional Harlequin suit and how that pattern covering the card back would be interesting in contrast with the Bee Diamond Back pattern.

See, Don gets me. 

[Alex Willis]

Wasn't there a movie about building something and people will come   So, I took a blind faith leap on this project and started.  I have four artists on my payroll, each doing one suit.  One is doing the Jokers, a gaff (like this deck needs one) and the back as well as one of the suits.  I prefer to work one artist at a time, but the point is that I want 4 points of view, four takes on joker styles and something positively unique.  I won't give away too much at this time, but stay tuned... I'm looking for a fall release on this deck.  (I must be mad!)

[Collector]

@Don, my previous message wasn't about pattern. It was about some element in the center of the back. As I see the back is removed now so I can't explain better.

@ManMadeGames (without offence) may I propose you don't prejudice your ability to make a successful deck so often on this forum. You'll scare all your potential customers/backers. Think about that

[Alex Willis]

@ManMadeGames (without offence) may I propose you don't prejudice your ability to make a successful deck so often on this forum. You'll scare all your potential customers/backers. Think about that

Text is not the best method for sarcasm or humor as it's often mistaken.  I for one stand behind all my projects, no matter how badly received because I believe in the art.  Sometimes however, like with this deck, I am uncertain how the idea would be received and if it were to even be worth my effort (and money as i pay for the artists out of pocket with no promise of a payoff at the end).  As far as seeing projects through, I've worked on ERP implemetations for more years than I care to count and my claim to fame is delivering on time and on budget (and often those projects run into the millions).  I set a budget on this project, and a timeline, and an expectation.  Those things I can control.  The fickle buying power of the consumer is a wave that's hard to ride and difficult to gage, so the only way to know for sure is to throw it up on the wall and see if it sticks.

To your point about the center image, I pulled it because I didn't like it either.  I actually was about to pull it when I noticed your message.  I decided to go with the straight pattern without the center emblem (which was supposed to be a J).  I like it better now. 

[Don Boyer]

@ManMadeGames (without offence) may I propose you don't prejudice your ability to make a successful deck so often on this forum. You'll scare all your potential customers/backers. Think about that

Text is not the best method for sarcasm or humor as it's often mistaken.  I for one stand behind all my projects, no matter how badly received because I believe in the art.  Sometimes however, like with this deck, I am uncertain how the idea would be received and if it were to even be worth my effort (and money as i pay for the artists out of pocket with no promise of a payoff at the end).  As far as seeing projects through, I've worked on ERP implemetations for more years than I care to count and my claim to fame is delivering on time and on budget (and often those projects run into the millions).  I set a budget on this project, and a timeline, and an expectation.  Those things I can control.  The fickle buying power of the consumer is a wave that's hard to ride and difficult to gage, so the only way to know for sure is to throw it up on the wall and see if it sticks.

To your point about the center image, I pulled it because I didn't like it either.  I actually was about to pull it when I noticed your message.  I decided to go with the straight pattern without the center emblem (which was supposed to be a J).  I like it better now.

The back is a one-way design.  Not that this is the kiss of death, but there are many who stay away from obvious one-way backs.

Did you realize that you could make all the backs different - call it something like the "kaleidoscope effect" for when you riffle it - but while you're at it you could conceal a marking system in the color patterns...

[Alex Willis]

The back is a one-way design.  Not that this is the kiss of death, but there are many who stay away from obvious one-way backs.

Did you realize that you could make all the backs different - call it something like the "kaleidoscope effect" for when you riffle it - but while you're at it you could conceal a marking system in the color patterns...

I considered not doing a one-way design, but this deck will have be viewed one way on the other side for most of the cards ... I like the Kaleidoscope Effect for the back, I was unaware that this was an option with Bicycle.  I was under the impression that you got one card back and that's it.  As for a marking system, I already considered using the gold dots on the back to mark the deck.  One silver dot position would identify the card and suit.  It wouldn't really stand out to the casual user, but it would make the one way back beneficial to the "Trickster".  If I could get away with a "kaleidoscope effect" it would look cool but I would think harder to read the mark.

Again, all great ideas.

[Don Boyer]

The back is a one-way design.  Not that this is the kiss of death, but there are many who stay away from obvious one-way backs.

Did you realize that you could make all the backs different - call it something like the "kaleidoscope effect" for when you riffle it - but while you're at it you could conceal a marking system in the color patterns...

I considered not doing a one-way design, but this deck will have be viewed one way on the other side for most of the cards ... I like the Kaleidoscope Effect for the back, I was unaware that this was an option with Bicycle.  I was under the impression that you got one card back and that's it.  As for a marking system, I already considered using the gold dots on the back to mark the deck.  One silver dot position would identify the card and suit.  It wouldn't really stand out to the casual user, but it would make the one way back beneficial to the "Trickster".  If I could get away with a "kaleidoscope effect" it would look cool but I would think harder to read the mark.

Again, all great ideas.

But that's the point - you don't want a marking system to be too easily read, because that means it would be too easily spotted as well!  If you need some help working on a marking system design, let me know.

[Collector]

@ManMadeGames (without offence) may I propose you don't prejudice your ability to make a successful deck so often on this forum. You'll scare all your potential customers/backers. Think about that

Text is not the best method for sarcasm or humor as it's often mistaken...

@ManMadeGames, no sarcasm or humor. It was a friendly advice based on my perception of your different messages regarding your artworks and playing card projects made in different threads.
IMHO: Investors like self-confident people. If you have some doubts it is normal and means that you have a good head on your shoulders which is nice for a project. But you can express your doubts or can convert them in questions - the result will be different in terms of investment opportunities. I won't say any word about this moment again.

About cards:
Personally I don't care about one way backs if they are designed well. But it can be an unpleasant moment for some collectors on this forum.

[Alex Willis]

But that's the point - you don't want a marking system to be too easily read, because that means it would be too easily spotted as well!  If you need some help working on a marking system design, let me know.

I need some help working on a marking system design.

[Don Boyer]

But that's the point - you don't want a marking system to be too easily read, because that means it would be too easily spotted as well!  If you need some help working on a marking system design, let me know.

I need some help working on a marking system design.

Hit my profile - my email address is there.

[Alex Willis]

So, if you've wondered whether I let this go or not... NOT.  Here are some samples... sketches, enjoy.

[Don Boyer]

Looks like you're heading in a good direction, there.

[Collector]

So, if you've wondered whether I let this go or not... NOT.  Here are some samples... sketches, enjoy.

1,2,3, - are nice.

[Alex Willis]

What kind of gaff card should a Joker deck have?  Considering I am planning a marked design for the card backs, I'm not sure that a double sided card back would work... and i want it to be what one would expect from a deck dedicated to ... Jokers (tricksters). 

I have a couple of clever add-on's already in the channel, but I'm not giving up those tidbits yet.  So far, the deck has been a load of fun to develop (although I had to let one of the artists go as their work wasn't in line with the others, so back to three artists... I have a few folks in the wings ready to backfill the workload).  This deck is truly becoming a collaborative effort, and I it's taskmaster with a very long and pointy stick.

[Don Boyer]

What kind of gaff card should a Joker deck have?  Considering I am planning a marked design for the card backs, I'm not sure that a double sided card back would work... and i want it to be what one would expect from a deck dedicated to ... Jokers (tricksters). 

I have a couple of clever add-on's already in the channel, but I'm not giving up those tidbits yet.  So far, the deck has been a load of fun to develop (although I had to let one of the artists go as their work wasn't in line with the others, so back to three artists... I have a few folks in the wings ready to backfill the workload).  This deck is truly becoming a collaborative effort, and I it's taskmaster with a very long and pointy stick.

You can hide a fair amount of stuff in a joker, but the most common things would be a card reveal (either in words or as a card image) or a word - The Legends deck did both.

Just because you're planning a marked deck, doesn't mean you can't include a double-backer.  If your backs are all identical, you just leave the markings out for the double.  If your backs are all different, do you honestly think a spectator is going to sit there and carefully observe the patterns on the backs of each and every card?  I've passed off two different jokers as the same card before - if they're similar enough, people simply aren't observant enough to catch it.  I've used a Bee deck with an American joker and a Canadian one (with different-sized indices and different text under the art, no less), and I've used the two jokers in a Streamline - same center art, both indices say Joker, but one has a circled star at the top of the index while the other doesn't.  I never got caught on either.

Gaff cards, besides a standard blank-facer or a double-backer?  A double-backer with two different backs can be a miracle worker - make the second back something really common and cheap, like a Rider Back or an Aviator or something.  Another simple gaff would be to have a card with the standard back for your deck but a plain, USPC-standard card face for some random card like a 6 of diamonds or something.  Include both of those cards and you can create a routine where the spectator thinks you're holding a standard Bicycle deck, then it changes to your deck without a deck switch.

[Alex Willis]

Gaff cards, besides a standard blank-facer or a double-backer?  A double-backer with two different backs can be a miracle worker - make the second back something really common and cheap, like a Rider Back or an Aviator or something.  Another simple gaff would be to have a card with the standard back for your deck but a plain, USPC-standard card face for some random card like a 6 of diamonds or something.  Include both of those cards and you can create a routine where the spectator thinks you're holding a standard Bicycle deck, then it changes to your deck without a deck switch.

Sound advice, and here I was just going to make the (Straight man in a suit) Joker card duplicated with one wearing pants and the other in boxer shorts, otherwise identical.

[Don Boyer]

Gaff cards, besides a standard blank-facer or a double-backer?  A double-backer with two different backs can be a miracle worker - make the second back something really common and cheap, like a Rider Back or an Aviator or something.  Another simple gaff would be to have a card with the standard back for your deck but a plain, USPC-standard card face for some random card like a 6 of diamonds or something.  Include both of those cards and you can create a routine where the spectator thinks you're holding a standard Bicycle deck, then it changes to your deck without a deck switch.

Sound advice, and here I was just going to make the (Straight man in a suit) Joker card duplicated with one wearing pants and the other in boxer shorts, otherwise identical.

That works.  Put the unsuited (get it, UNsuited?) joker in boxers and a t-shirt - with a card reveal across the face...

But, better and more versatile, make the jokers appear identical, but give one a very subtle reveal, like the clouds in the sky over him coalescing into a shape that looks an awful like a value and a suit, subtly hidden with shading so no one would spot it unless you pointed it out.  Having two seemingly-identical jokers can actually be useful to a magician.

Another useful gaff - a duplicate of an existing card.  Many tricks utilizing two jokers (like the in-their-hand transposition) come across a hundred times more convincingly when done with two of a single card that a deck wouldn't ordinarily have two of.  The Blue Crown did that effectively using Queens of Hearts in the NOC and Altruism decks.

[Alex Willis]

But, better and more versatile, make the jokers appear identical, but give one a very subtle reveal, like the clouds in the sky over him coalescing into a shape that looks an awful like a value and a suit, subtly hidden with shading so no one would spot it unless you pointed it out.  Having two seemingly-identical jokers can actually be useful to a magician.

Do you have an example of this idea?

[Don Boyer]

But, better and more versatile, make the jokers appear identical, but give one a very subtle reveal, like the clouds in the sky over him coalescing into a shape that looks an awful like a value and a suit, subtly hidden with shading so no one would spot it unless you pointed it out.  Having two seemingly-identical jokers can actually be useful to a magician.

Do you have an example of this idea?

Look at the two jokers in the Legends deck.  The dragon is holding a card - face down in one joker, face up in the other.  But that's the obvious change.  The subtle one is when you look in the dragon's smoke, one has additional wisps of smoke that form the letters of the word "Ruby".  (At least I think it was "Ruby", since I'm going by memory.)  I didn't realize it was there until someone else pointed it out to me - it's insanely subtle.

A similar example would be the backs of the Ultimate Marked Deck (Bicycle Rider Back, red and blue) and the GT Speedreader Deck (Bicycle Mandolin Back, red and blue).  You spread either deck to a spectator, they see nothing but identical card backs - this despite the fact that each card's value and suit are printed plainly and easily read (if you know where to look) without any weird coding system - plain letters, numbers and suit icons woven right into the design so as to seem like a natural part of it.

Legends decks are sold out but still circulating for just a touch more than original retail.
Ultimate Marked Decks are like a "Holy Grail" of magician's/gambler's marked decks - long sold out, now they're commanding prices near $40 a pack.
GT Speedreaders are still around at good prices - the Mandolin Back never gained a lot of traction after its introduction, especially after the introduction of the Maiden Back (much more attractive-looking and closer to the Rider Back in design).

Speaking of Maiden Backs, there's an excellent Gambler's Deck in the Maiden Back - stripped, marked several different ways and designed to use in a card stack.  I love Gambler's Decks - I also have the original Rider Back models that will never be printed again.

[Alex Willis]

I've made a command decision to call the deck:  Four Jokers.

[Alex Willis]

The court cards for Spades and one of the four jokers (sketch)

[Don Boyer]

The court cards for Spades and one of the four jokers (sketch)

Why are the jokers marked "A"?  Are they also aces?

[Alex Willis]

The court cards for Spades and one of the four jokers (sketch)

Why are the jokers marked "A"?  Are they also aces?

I changed the Joker.  See above.

[Alex Willis]

Bearded Lady out - Four Jokers in. 

[Don Boyer]

Thinking way outside the (tuck)box here... Having struggled for a while with a name for the Joker deck which included 'Court Jesters', 'Four Jokers' and 'Tricksters', I've decided to not be so literal.  One of the best gags of all times is the "Bearded Lady" found often in sideshows.  As the deck is a tribute to jokers, both in design and fun, I thought how fitting it would be to represent the deck with this advert.  Please, discuss amongst yourselves.  And yes, I know it may make people think this is a carnival themed deck, then again aren't clowns just modern day jesters?

To call it the Bearded Lady deck and not have it filled with bearded ladies sounds like a bad idea.  Seriously, that sounds like an entirely different deck altogether.  You concept is Jokers - jokers used to be known as the Best Bowers of the deck before the name "joker" existed, and the name evolved from the name of the game "euchre", which is why the joker was created in the first place.  Consider these as better potential alternative name sources.

[Alex Willis]

Finally, all the art and design work is done.  Happy with my part I have handed the work over to my constituants at ManMadeGames and it's up to them now to do what they like.  I have other projects to keep myself occupied.  The team will still pursue marked backs as part of a stretch goal and they've been looking at add-ons and the like to help bolster sales.  They've also been working on an entertaining script and video to catch the attention of the KS team and hopefully will get the deck highlighted. 

Next projects:  For myself - relaunch of Zombie Origin as a Bicycle brand, for MMG - True Royalty Playing Cards USPCC.  Before that though I have begun the process of setting up my packaging/shipping area to prepare for my first Bicycle deliveries.  It's still a month away, but I like to have all my ducks neatly lined up.  I'm looking for a used conveyor belt if anyone has one, my packaging area is 25' long and the process works better in assembly line fashion:  5 Tables - Sorting, Fulfilling, Packaging, Labeling, Scanning.  I have boxes and packing materials on shelves along the walls.  Attached is an arial view of the farm, you can see my new packing/shipping area.  I had to clear out all the junk to make room and I wish I had a loading dock. 

[Don Boyer]

Finally, all the art and design work is done.  Happy with my part I have handed the work over to my constituants at ManMadeGames and it's up to them now to do what they like.  I have other projects to keep myself occupied.  The team will still pursue marked backs as part of a stretch goal and they've been looking at add-ons and the like to help bolster sales.  They've also been working on an entertaining script and video to catch the attention of the KS team and hopefully will get the deck highlighted. 

Next projects:  For myself - relaunch of Zombie Origin as a Bicycle brand, for MMG - True Royalty Playing Cards USPCC.  Before that though I have begun the process of setting up my packaging/shipping area to prepare for my first Bicycle deliveries.  It's still a month away, but I like to have all my ducks neatly lined up.  I'm looking for a used conveyor belt if anyone has one, my packaging area is 25' long and the process works better in assembly line fashion:  5 Tables - Sorting, Fulfilling, Packaging, Labeling, Scanning.  I have boxes and packing materials on shelves along the walls.  Attached is an arial view of the farm, you can see my new packing/shipping area.  I had to clear out all the junk to make room and I wish I had a loading dock. 

[pats down pockets, looks inside jacket]  Sorry, no conveyor belt on me...  Maybe I left it in the car... 

Nice digs, but it looks like it could be better organized, somehow.  Like having "Stowing" next to "Packing/Shipping" instead of "Inventing".  You could possibly put a loading dock at one end or the other of the Packing/Shipping building, and perhaps even connect those two buildings for easier transport of goods between them.  But hey, that's me, I have no idea of the details of the place, so that advice and two quarters only adds up to fifty cents.

[Alex Willis]

Stowing is up on a hill and it's not storage per se, it's where I stow stuff away that has no place else to go.  Mostly it's just experiments gone awry, half built things, a Deloreon with a flux capacitor, you know that kind of thing   The packaging area has a roll up door but I have to use a fork lift and carry stuff outside to load it onto a truck since the structure is only single story.  The experiment area is a two story frame with a full sized slide door but it's not as well laid out and it's harder for trucks to back up (the picture doesn't define the steep incline of hill going up to the stowage).