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Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS

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Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« on: October 09, 2014, 02:23:05 PM »
 

CBJ

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  I was the featured collector on UC for May/June, check it out: http://bit.ly/UC_MyCollection

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Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2014, 09:57:03 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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This has got to be one of the worst ideas I've ever seen in the world of playing cards!!!

What were they thinking?  "Hey, we need to make ANOTHER deck, we haven't hit this month's quota yet.  Why don't we make a deck that's similar enough to that charity deck for breast cancer that people might even confuse the two of them - sure, the other deck donates money to cancer research while ours just pays us, but hey, we can always add their decks to our project as well, right?  I mean we REALLY want to confuse people into giving to us instead of some charity, right?"

This is a TERRIBLE IDEA FOR A DECK.  They could have made it a charity deck, sure - but then they couldn't use Kickstarter, could they?  So instead they come up with this hot, wet mess...  Did they even get permission from the Susan J. Komen Foundation to put their name on the acrylic ribbon?
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Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2014, 10:31:34 PM »
 

DarkDerp

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Down boy!!!

I like to call paper coatings a finish. It makes Don happy.
 

Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2014, 10:38:18 PM »
 

Rose

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I was just about to write "awareness" is great but why can't any percentage of funds be donated to the actual cause or at least the option for backers to donate an extra $1 or whatever to breast cancer research?
Then DarkDerp posted a FB msg saying they will. So that is great.
The cards are okay, not amazing, I do like the box though!
Also does anyone know anything about "Liberty playing card co" ? This is the first time I have heard of them.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 10:52:51 PM by Rose »
 

Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2014, 11:05:18 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I was just about to write "awareness" is great but why can't any percentage of funds be donated to the actual cause or at least the option for backers to donate an extra $1 or whatever to breast cancer research?
Then DarkDerp posted a FB msg saying they will. So that is great.
The cards are okay, not amazing, I do like the box though!
Also does anyone know anything about "Liberty playing card co" ? This is the first time I have heard of them.

Liberty is a small playing card outfit from Texas, if I remember correctly.  They print in the US, one of the few card companies besides USPC who still does.

They couldn't donate part of the proceeds to anyone because Kickstarter prohibits charity projects.  More specifically, they can't give any funds raised to a charity.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 11:16:34 PM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2014, 11:23:57 PM »
 

Rob Wright

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Um............................ :-\..........................no.

nuff said.
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Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2014, 03:40:39 AM »
 

Paul.Middleton

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I was just about to write "awareness" is great but why can't any percentage of funds be donated to the actual cause or at least the option for backers to donate an extra $1 or whatever to breast cancer research?
Then DarkDerp posted a FB msg saying they will. So that is great.
The cards are okay, not amazing, I do like the box though!
Also does anyone know anything about "Liberty playing card co" ? This is the first time I have heard of them.

Liberty is a small playing card outfit from Texas, if I remember correctly.  They print in the US, one of the few card companies besides USPC who still does.

They couldn't donate part of the proceeds to anyone because Kickstarter prohibits charity projects.  More specifically, they can't give any funds raised to a charity.

Perhaps they think they can just calculate 20% and donate that - rather than directly from the funds? IE they raise $40k and then donate $8k from their own capital.
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Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2014, 01:44:32 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Perhaps they think they can just calculate 20% and donate that - rather than directly from the funds? IE they raise $40k and then donate $8k from their own capital.

From KS:

Projects can’t fundraise for charity, offer financial incentives, or involve prohibited items.

We’re all in favor of charity and investment, but they’re not permitted on Kickstarter. Projects can’t promise to donate funds raised to a charity or cause.


https://www.kickstarter.com/rules
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 01:45:11 PM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2014, 04:09:38 PM »
 

DarkDerp

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Yes, but they can choose to do what they want with the funds. The Kickstarter project page does not mention a donation.
I like to call paper coatings a finish. It makes Don happy.
 

Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2014, 06:18:16 PM »
 

Paul.Middleton

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Perhaps they think they can just calculate 20% and donate that - rather than directly from the funds? IE they raise $40k and then donate $8k from their own capital.

From KS:

Projects can’t fundraise for charity, offer financial incentives, or involve prohibited items.

We’re all in favor of charity and investment, but they’re not permitted on Kickstarter. Projects can’t promise to donate funds raised to a charity or cause.


https://www.kickstarter.com/rules

I understand that, my point was perhaps they didn't just intended to donate a sum from their own capital and not directly from Kickstarter funds, but just use that total as a guide.

Anyway, it's irrelevant as they were asked to remove the mention of it, but it looks like they will still donate.
~Paul Middleton,
JP Playing Cards
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www.jpplayingcards.co.uk
 

Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2014, 09:27:49 PM »
 

Rose

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Perhaps they think they can just calculate 20% and donate that - rather than directly from the funds? IE they raise $40k and then donate $8k from their own capital.

From KS:

Projects can’t fundraise for charity, offer financial incentives, or involve prohibited items.

We’re all in favor of charity and investment, but they’re not permitted on Kickstarter. Projects can’t promise to donate funds raised to a charity or cause.


https://www.kickstarter.com/rules
Oh, yes I see now. I did know that but I totally forgot. Well that's why there is no mention on the KS page but they do mention it on their FB page.
 

Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2014, 12:37:32 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Yes, but they can choose to do what they want with the funds. The Kickstarter project page does not mention a donation.

Sure, they could donate like that - but that would be fraud...if you're receiving money from people under false pretenses or doing something with the money other than you initially stated you would, that's fraud.


I understand that, my point was perhaps they didn't just intended to donate a sum from their own capital and not directly from Kickstarter funds, but just use that total as a guide.

Anyway, it's irrelevant as they were asked to remove the mention of it, but it looks like they will still donate.

In general, a company comes to Kickstarter to raise funds in order to get a project made - there's no vast resources or some corporate slush fund lying around that they could use.  If it was as simple as donating from "other company funds", why attach it in any way to the Kickstarter campaign?  They could simply have made the donation without making it in any way contingent on the sales of their deck.  To give the money any other way would still constitute fraud.

It's really a matter of how serious Kickstarter considers this attempt to divert project funds to a charity.

And here's another bone of contention, in regard to offering Bicycle Pink Ribbon decks as rewards, from Kickstarter's list of prohibited items:

Resale. All rewards must have been produced or designed by the project or one of its creators — no reselling things from elsewhere.

https://www.kickstarter.com/rules/prohibited

It's very simple to me - they thought this would be a good way to make money, watched it backfire, then tried making up for it with a donation based on sales that's only mentioned on their Facebook account.  All this deck will do is create market confusion in regards to pink-ribbon based designs meant to raise money for charity.  The fact that they're offering the "competing" deck as a reward only muddies the waters - did they even obtain permission from the makers of the deck before making it a reward?  They obviously didn't consult Kickstarter - if they had, the reward would not be there.
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Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2014, 01:57:53 AM »
 

Fess

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Yes, but they can choose to do what they want with the funds. The Kickstarter project page does not mention a donation.

Sure, they could donate like that - but that would be fraud...if you're receiving money from people under false pretenses or doing something with the money other than you initially stated you would, that's fraud.


I understand that, my point was perhaps they didn't just intended to donate a sum from their own capital and not directly from Kickstarter funds, but just use that total as a guide.

Anyway, it's irrelevant as they were asked to remove the mention of it, but it looks like they will still donate.

In general, a company comes to Kickstarter to raise funds in order to get a project made - there's no vast resources or some corporate slush fund lying around that they could use.  If it was as simple as donating from "other company funds", why attach it in any way to the Kickstarter campaign?  They could simply have made the donation without making it in any way contingent on the sales of their deck.  To give the money any other way would still constitute fraud.

It's really a matter of how serious Kickstarter considers this attempt to divert project funds to a charity.

And here's another bone of contention, in regard to offering Bicycle Pink Ribbon decks as rewards, from Kickstarter's list of prohibited items:

Resale. All rewards must have been produced or designed by the project or one of its creators — no reselling things from elsewhere.

https://www.kickstarter.com/rules/prohibited

It's very simple to me - they thought this would be a good way to make money, watched it backfire, then tried making up for it with a donation based on sales that's only mentioned on their Facebook account.  All this deck will do is create market confusion in regards to pink-ribbon based designs meant to raise money for charity.  The fact that they're offering the "competing" deck as a reward only muddies the waters - did they even obtain permission from the makers of the deck before making it a reward?  They obviously didn't consult Kickstarter - if they had, the reward would not be there.

Tossing around the word Fraud a lot. I don't like it. Gamblers Warehouse, they will supply the product. They can do whatever they want with the profit they acquire from the product. If they say they're going to donate 20% on facebook, well they'll donate 20%. Gamblers Warehouse is not a fly by night company. We all know that. You'll often see something on Kickstarters called "kicking it forward" a little promise people make to kick 5% toward other products on KS. KS has no problem with this. Honestly, I trust GW to keep their word much more than I do those many others.

Also, Add-ons and rewards are different beasts entirely. GW can offer whatever they choose as an add-on as long as it's something they can provide. Be it a teddy bear with a pink ribbon on it's ass, or a deck of cards they've already purchased and have sitting in their warehouses. The only people who may have a problem with it is USPCC, who I doubt really care what GW does with the decks they've already purchased from them. Authors can officer previously written work as an Add-on for to their current campaign of an entirely new work. Games Publishers can offer games they've previously made as an Add-on to the game they're currently offering.

Gamblers Warehouse has a very good reputation to me. My opinion is earned through the many dealings I've had with them. Top notch company, solves problems when they arise and supplies what they say they will. They even save decks that should be made, and can't get the funding on KS. There is nothing shady about them.

Two weeks left on this campaign. Back it if you want, don't back it if you don't want. KS is full of contradictions and always will be, people and companies will go by president set by previous campaigns and the machine will keep grinding along.
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Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2014, 03:00:59 AM »
 

PurpleIce

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Yes, but they can choose to do what they want with the funds. The Kickstarter project page does not mention a donation.

Sure, they could donate like that - but that would be fraud...if you're receiving money from people under false pretenses or doing something with the money other than you initially stated you would, that's fraud.


I understand that, my point was perhaps they didn't just intended to donate a sum from their own capital and not directly from Kickstarter funds, but just use that total as a guide.

Anyway, it's irrelevant as they were asked to remove the mention of it, but it looks like they will still donate.

In general, a company comes to Kickstarter to raise funds in order to get a project made - there's no vast resources or some corporate slush fund lying around that they could use.  If it was as simple as donating from "other company funds", why attach it in any way to the Kickstarter campaign?  They could simply have made the donation without making it in any way contingent on the sales of their deck.  To give the money any other way would still constitute fraud.

It's really a matter of how serious Kickstarter considers this attempt to divert project funds to a charity.

And here's another bone of contention, in regard to offering Bicycle Pink Ribbon decks as rewards, from Kickstarter's list of prohibited items:

Resale. All rewards must have been produced or designed by the project or one of its creators — no reselling things from elsewhere.

https://www.kickstarter.com/rules/prohibited

It's very simple to me - they thought this would be a good way to make money, watched it backfire, then tried making up for it with a donation based on sales that's only mentioned on their Facebook account.  All this deck will do is create market confusion in regards to pink-ribbon based designs meant to raise money for charity.  The fact that they're offering the "competing" deck as a reward only muddies the waters - did they even obtain permission from the makers of the deck before making it a reward?  They obviously didn't consult Kickstarter - if they had, the reward would not be there.

Tossing around the word Fraud a lot. I don't like it. Gamblers Warehouse, they will supply the product. They can do whatever they want with the profit they acquire from the product. If they say they're going to donate 20% on facebook, well they'll donate 20%. Gamblers Warehouse is not a fly by night company. We all know that. You'll often see something on Kickstarters called "kicking it forward" a little promise people make to kick 5% toward other products on KS. KS has no problem with this. Honestly, I trust GW to keep their word much more than I do those many others.

Also, Add-ons and rewards are different beasts entirely. GW can offer whatever they choose as an add-on as long as it's something they can provide. Be it a teddy bear with a pink ribbon on it's ass, or a deck of cards they've already purchased and have sitting in their warehouses. The only people who may have a problem with it is USPCC, who I doubt really care what GW does with the decks they've already purchased from them. Authors can officer previously written work as an Add-on for to their current campaign of an entirely new work. Games Publishers can offer games they've previously made as an Add-on to the game they're currently offering.

Gamblers Warehouse has a very good reputation to me. My opinion is earned through the many dealings I've had with them. Top notch company, solves problems when they arise and supplies what they say they will. They even save decks that should be made, and can't get the funding on KS. There is nothing shady about them.

Two weeks left on this campaign. Back it if you want, don't back it if you don't want. KS is full of contradictions and always will be, people and companies will go by president set by previous campaigns and the machine will keep grinding along.

I am speaking as a person with little dealings with GW. Sure, being in the card collector circle, I definitely know who they are to a certain extent. But this project is not just being marketed to us, but also to people who had or have close relatives and friends that actually went through breast cancer, as well as the general public who might wish to do something to make this world a better place.

I wouldn't exactly call it fraud. After all, the intent was to, hopefully, do some charitable good. But KS have their rules for some good reason of their own, and what GW has done here, is actually to use the name of charity to get people to buy their decks, in good faith that they will donate the 20% funding out to the breast cancer foundation. Also, It does not state anywhere on the project page that a donation will be made and this deck is merely to raise awareness.

With regards to the Original Bicycle Pink Ribbon Deck. As Don mentioned,
Resale. All rewards must have been produced or designed by the project or one of its creators — no reselling things from elsewhere.
Many projects on KS offer items that were from their previous projects, or something that they have re-worked themselves to be able to call it their own to a certain extent. What GW did here, IMPO, was clearly wrong.
Simply put, imagine me creating a deck about bank notes. And i say people can add-on Jackson's Fed 52 at double the original price simply because they are of the same theme and i have bought a gross from Jackson and kept it in my store.

While the intent of raising awareness and making donations is definitely a good cause. I just feel the way GW executed this project was not the best method available.
 

Re: Pink Ribbon Custom Playing Cards by Gambler's Warehouse - KS
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2014, 03:51:14 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Tossing around the word Fraud a lot. I don't like it. Gamblers Warehouse, they will supply the product. They can do whatever they want with the profit they acquire from the product. If they say they're going to donate 20% on facebook, well they'll donate 20%. Gamblers Warehouse is not a fly by night company. We all know that. You'll often see something on Kickstarters called "kicking it forward" a little promise people make to kick 5% toward other products on KS. KS has no problem with this. Honestly, I trust GW to keep their word much more than I do those many others.

Also, Add-ons and rewards are different beasts entirely. GW can offer whatever they choose as an add-on as long as it's something they can provide. Be it a teddy bear with a pink ribbon on it's ass, or a deck of cards they've already purchased and have sitting in their warehouses. The only people who may have a problem with it is USPCC, who I doubt really care what GW does with the decks they've already purchased from them. Authors can officer previously written work as an Add-on for to their current campaign of an entirely new work. Games Publishers can offer games they've previously made as an Add-on to the game they're currently offering.

Gamblers Warehouse has a very good reputation to me. My opinion is earned through the many dealings I've had with them. Top notch company, solves problems when they arise and supplies what they say they will. They even save decks that should be made, and can't get the funding on KS. There is nothing shady about them.

Two weeks left on this campaign. Back it if you want, don't back it if you don't want. KS is full of contradictions and always will be, people and companies will go by president set by previous campaigns and the machine will keep grinding along.

As was pointed out by PurpleIce, all those examples you gave were about people offering products they produced, created, designed, etc.  Gambler's Warehouse did NOT produce or design the current edition of the Pink Ribbon deck.

The first definition of the noun "fraud" is "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."  I would likely not call this criminal, but I'm not a lawyer and there is indeed wrongful deception taking place which will result in Gambler's Warehouse's financial gain.  The legal definition in this country is "A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury."  Keeping their charity gift of a portion of their project's income off the project page but posted elsewhere would qualify as "concealment of what should have been disclosed" as well as being deceptive to their Kickstarter backers and Kickstarter itself.

Any project that raises money for charity violates the TOS.  Any project that offers materials that were simply purchased and offered by the creator without being his or her own original work violates the TOS.  If it didn't, people wouldn't bother producing projects - they'd simply open stores on KS disguised as projects, selling goods that someone else made in the guise of accepting pledges and completely defeating the purpose for which Kickstarter exists.

While USPC may or may not care about the Bicycle Pink Ribbon deck being offered, I would think that the Susan G. Komen Race for the Cure organization would certainly care, especially when the deck is offered as an add-on to a project that will inevitably divert sales of their Bicycle deck to GW's deck.

It says, clear as day, "Projects can’t fundraise for charity, offer financial incentives, or involve prohibited items."  If they're offering 20% of sales - or any percentage of sales - of their deck to charity, I'm finding it hard to not see this as being against Kickstarter's rules.  And under prohibited items, is clearly states "Resale. All rewards must have been produced or designed by the project or one of its creators — no reselling things from elsewhere."  Gambler's Warehouse did NOT create the Bicycle Pink Ribbon deck, something that pre-exists the company by a few years.

I'd be willing to wager that this was a case of GW not intentionally trying to defraud anyone, but simply not knowing better about what is and isn't allowed on Kickstarter.  It's all a matter of what, if anything, Kickstarter chooses to do about it.  If this was any other deck project, if this didn't involve charitable donations based on sales or the offering of an item they didn't produce, I'd be tickled pink for them and wish them every success.

Situations like this are part of the reason why I bemoan the fact that many companies keep coming back over and over to Kickstarter to offer their products and get them paid for without risk instead of simply digging out the checkbook and putting up the cash themselves.  They could have self-produced this deck, offered whatever they pleased, etc. on their own website and it wouldn't be as big a deal.  The fact that the project only had a $100 goal is a clear sign that they could have printed this without a single penny of crowdfunding.  If they're so proud of their efforts in this case, why does the article on their website announcing that the deck received 200% funding have a placeholder avatar and a blank square entitled "About the Author"?  I get it - there's all those people there at KS, looking to buy stuff by backing projects, but at what point does a company stand up on it's own legs?  Gambler's Warehouse isn't some starving artist trying to make a dream come true - it's a retail company!

OK, now I'm just ranting.  That's my sign to stop.
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