Curator Deck - 2nd Print?

[yoel]

So Curator Decks are now back in stock... The original schtick was "3500 LTD Artist Edition".  Does anyone know if there will be a change in the box to distinguish them from each other.

[xela]

You may want to link to the sale so we can discern any differences.

[yoel]

Well they are being sold on the HOPC site.  The picture of the deck still has the box that says "LTD Artist Edition".  The original run was for 3500 and they sold out, and now they just came back into stock.  So in theory the ones they are selling now should somehow be distinguishable from the original 3500 which were supposed to be a "LTD Artist Edition"

[Don Boyer]

Well they are being sold on the HOPC site.  The picture of the deck still has the box that says "LTD Artist Edition".  The original run was for 3500 and they sold out, and now they just came back into stock.  So in theory the ones they are selling now should somehow be distinguishable from the original 3500 which were supposed to be a "LTD Artist Edition"

They usually include copyright information on the bottom of the tuck box - this printing will likely be © 2013, while the previous one was © 2012.

Um, I just looked - no copyright info on the old deck.  But I could practically guarantee there will be some kind of changes, akin to the changes from the version one Crown decks to the version twos.

[Utterfool]

Are we even sure that they sold all 3500 originally.
They may have just put up 2000 and marked them as sold out at that point. With the idea of releasing the rest with another new deck. Like let's say NOC 2.0.

Or maybe they printed more than 3500 and through sly wording only released 3500 the first time they were up and made us think only 3500 were printed

[Don Boyer]

Are we even sure that they sold all 3500 originally.
They may have just put up 2000 and marked them as sold out at that point. With the idea of releasing the rest with another new deck. Like let's say NOC 2.0.

Or maybe they printed more than 3500 and through sly wording only released 3500 the first time they were up and made us think only 3500 were printed

Considering the rate at which they were selling at the initial release and the fact that the price didn't go up, I really doubt they were holding stock back.

I remember when I worked for Banana Republic back when they were still selling military surplus - they eliminated the stock room where I worked.  All the stock that came in from the warehouse went straight to the showroom floor; there was nothing "in the back" because there was no longer a back for it to be in.  Simply put, it costs money to store something in a stock room rather than selling it and MAKING money on it.

[yoel]

Well they are being sold on the HOPC site.  The picture of the deck still has the box that says "LTD Artist Edition".  The original run was for 3500 and they sold out, and now they just came back into stock.  So in theory the ones they are selling now should somehow be distinguishable from the original 3500 which were supposed to be a "LTD Artist Edition"

They usually include copyright information on the bottom of the tuck box - this printing will likely be © 2013, while the previous one was © 2012.

Um, I just looked - no copyright info on the old deck.  But I could practically guarantee there will be some kind of changes, akin to the changes from the version one Crown decks to the version twos.

Well considering that the first run was the LTD Edition, I'd hope that on the second run the text "LTD Artist Edition" would not be placed on the bottom of the box.  I emailed HOPC to get some information, no word back yet.  So we will see.  I think the description on the item has changed although I cant recall for sure.  But the picture still depicts the original box.

[billysac]

I spammed the hopc facebook page asking this same question (if this was 2nd print, how to tell the difference, etc.) and never got a response from them. Emmanuel at least had the courtesy to reply saying "It's no secret: the original run sold out. This is a second run."

Still don't know how to differentiate though.

[Don Boyer]

Well considering that the first run was the LTD Edition, I'd hope that on the second run the text "LTD Artist Edition" would not be placed on the bottom of the box.  I emailed HOPC to get some information, no word back yet.  So we will see.  I think the description on the item has changed although I cant recall for sure.  But the picture still depicts the original box.

And if you look on the Ellusionist site, you'll still find some decks in the photos labeled "Air Cushion Finish" or maybe even "UV 500 Air-Flow Finish" if you look hard enough, despite those two types of deck finishes being nearly extinct as far as their stock is concerned.  It costs less to use the existing photos - no need to spend time and money on a new photo shoot for an already-existing product.  There's also the chance that the entire staff (all twelve of them, literally) missed it and just left it up.

I spammed the hopc facebook page asking this same question (if this was 2nd print, how to tell the difference, etc.) and never got a response from them. Emmanuel at least had the courtesy to reply saying "It's no secret: the original run sold out. This is a second run."

Still don't know how to differentiate though.

You SPAMMED them, then expected a real reply?  Do you realize how idiotic that sounds?  A simple query on their own site's customer service link (not Facebook) would have been a far better way to get the answer...

[yoel]

I spammed the hopc facebook page asking this same question (if this was 2nd print, how to tell the difference, etc.) and never got a response from them. Emmanuel at least had the courtesy to reply saying "It's no secret: the original run sold out. This is a second run."

Still don't know how to differentiate though.

Spamming is usually never a good way to get a quick answer.  I emailed them on a Saturday afternoon so Im sure they will get back to me sooner or later.    Also the second runs will show their face soon enough and we will have an answer.

[billysac]

Spammed is probably the wrong word, I asked them on their main feed as well as in a comment after the post about the curators themselves. Also, I fart in your general direction.

[yoel]

Well considering that the first run was the LTD Edition, I'd hope that on the second run the text "LTD Artist Edition" would not be placed on the bottom of the box.  I emailed HOPC to get some information, no word back yet.  So we will see.  I think the description on the item has changed although I cant recall for sure.  But the picture still depicts the original box.

And if you look on the Ellusionist site, you'll still find some decks in the photos labeled "Air Cushion Finish" or maybe even "UV 500 Air-Flow Finish" if you look hard enough, despite those two types of deck finishes being nearly extinct as far as their stock is concerned.  It costs less to use the existing photos - no need to spend time and money on a new photo shoot for an already-existing product.  There's also the chance that the entire staff (all twelve of them, literally) missed it and just left it up.

I spammed the hopc facebook page asking this same question (if this was 2nd print, how to tell the difference, etc.) and never got a response from them. Emmanuel at least had the courtesy to reply saying "It's no secret: the original run sold out. This is a second run."

Still don't know how to differentiate though.

You SPAMMED them, then expected a real reply?  Do you realize how idiotic that sounds?  A simple query on their own site's customer service link (not Facebook) would have been a far better way to get the answer...

Yes, Im aware of the fact that the pictures were probably not updated even if there was a slight change.  Though I feel the description was changed like I stated earlier.  Just the other day I was on Penguin and they are selling the new Magic Castle cards but the picture was showing the Paulson version.  They just updated the pictures and responded to my email timely as they always do!  I didn't think my inquiry on here would flood HOPCs Facebook with SPAM!  Hopefully they don't get annoyed at people asking them about this now and disregard my polite email inquiry.

Spammed is probably the wrong word, I asked them on their main feed as well as in a comment after the post about the curators themselves. Also, I fart in your general direction.

I will gladly light a match and singe all of your precious butt hairs off! 

[yoel]

Got my answer from HOPC here is a copy of the conversation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the response.  I was under the assumption that the cards would surly be the same.  But you advertised a 3500 deck run of a LTD Artist Edition.  Will the new decks on the second run use the exact same box stating "LTD Artist Edition"?

Regards,


Hi.  All elements are the same - there have been 2 very small print runs of the design, thus it is still considered to be limited.

Thanks!

-HOPC Team


As a collector I 'm disappointed.  Your advertising and description for the original run stated "3500 LTD Artist Edition".  You have now changed the description of the item and that statement is now omitted.

With that logic don't you think the federal government should do a small print run of 1 Billion dollars to help the economy. That may be an extreme analogy but I hope it makes my point.

I feel that if you intended to make a second run and advertised only "3500 LTD Artist Edition"  you are falsely advertising.  If you were unsure thats fine but something should have changed to protect the collectible aspect .  Lets face it if it wasn't for collectors you wouldn't be selling that many so fast. 

If the wording "LTD Artist Edition"  was left off of the new boxes I would say you were doing the right thing. 


Hi.  Thanks for your feedback, I will be certain to pass it along to my higher-ups.

The wording on the Curator page never stated the only 3500 decks would ever be printed.  It was more of an availability statement that only 3500 had been printed at that point.  We had never made an official statement that only 3500 decks would ever be printed, etc.  I can certainly see your viewpoint though.

The decision to print another run of decks was based on tremendous demand from all types of people (not just deck collectors) and the decision to keep all design elements the same was arrived at mutually by the artist and our team.

As stated, even with a 2nd printing, this is still a limited deck with collectible value.

Thanks, and please feel free to drop us a line anytime!

-HOPC Team

[BiggerDee]

"We never said that we'd stop at 3500..." WOW!!!

[Curt]

I didn't buy this deck with the mindset of it becoming a rare collectors piece, because that would be silly. I bought it because it's unique and the artist is amazing. Doesn't bother me at all that more were printed, or if they continue to be printed. Basically it comes down to stuff that has been said in the post Alex made about what is considered "rare" these days.

Edit: This thread http://aethercards.com/discourse/playing-card-plethora/what's-really-'rare'-and-what's-just-a-fad/

[yoel]

I agree with how you feel about it because I dont buy to profit.  I have no problem with people do at the same time..  I know one person personally that paid $20 a deck for this because of how it was advertised.  Go look at previous listings on ebay.  Now they omit this exact statement from the cached copy of their website. Only to reprint and sell the exact same thing. 

"Only 3,500 decks of this amazing Limited Artist's Edition have been printed. Get yours today!"

I think if the "LTD Artist Edition" was taken off the box I would never have even thought to say anything.

I agree with what Alex had to say in his other post.  But I think this is wrong.  Hey I'm all for capitalism and selling cards.  Im happy they are printing more because it is a truly beautiful deck.  I am not an uncut sheet guy but this i would 100% buy if one was made.

You think if there was enough demand David Blaine would reprint his 1st Editions with "1st Edition on the box?

[BiggerDee]

What I can't figure out is why they wouldn't just avoid the problems from the start and put a 2013 date on it. Or a tiny "2nd print" text on the box. Surely USPCC would work with them to make a tiny change like that. The collectors and others interested in the limited edition factor would be happy, and they folks that didn't care would be happy because the design would keep coming.

It's kind of funny...as much as we all (myself included) gripe about color changes, it's a very similar thing. the design stays the same to keep the (possibly) limited aspect intact, yet the color changes. Yes, I know that it's not exactly the same situation, but in effect, it accomplishes almost the same thing. I like the Arcane design. If they print 5K of each color, then that's 10K chances for me to own the design, albeit only 5K if I hate one color but like the other. I do prefer one color over the other, but I like the design itself enough to have some of each. Just a thought.

[Don Boyer]

"We never said that we'd stop at 3500..." WOW!!!

Technically, it's true, if perhaps a bit misleading in the eyes of some.

You guys DO recall that it's part of the "mission statement" of HOPC to eliminate the endless cycle of Kickstarter-funded "limited edition only, never to see the light of day again, we smashed the presses and the computer" decks and allow creators to make a deck for as long as people want to buy it, right?  Some of their decks - many in fact - have still been limited at the request of the artist or due to sales being good but not good enough to warrant a new run, but THIS is what HOPC was all about from the start, and it seems they're getting back to that idea.

[yoel]

What I can't figure out is why they wouldn't just avoid the problems from the start and put a 2013 date on it. Or a tiny "2nd print" text on the box. Surely USPCC would work with them to make a tiny change like that. The collectors and others interested in the limited edition factor would be happy, and they folks that didn't care would be happy because the design would keep coming.

It's kind of funny...as much as we all (myself included) gripe about color changes, it's a very similar thing. the design stays the same to keep the (possibly) limited aspect intact, yet the color changes. Yes, I know that it's not exactly the same situation, but in effect, it accomplishes almost the same thing. I like the Arcane design. If they print 5K of each color, then that's 10K chances for me to own the design, albeit only 5K if I hate one color but like the other. I do prefer one color over the other, but I like the design itself enough to have some of each. Just a thought.

Im more inclined to say a change to the tuck case like I've said if the "LTD Artist Edition" was taken off the box.   Why bother saying anything about how many you have.  Its one thing if you disclose your stock level of a "Limited" item or if it's to disclose that they are almost sold out after on the market for a while.

I sent them another message in response asking for an explanation from one of his higher-ups as he said.  Here is the response.

"The 3500 figure was for our first print run of the decks and was provided as many customers do like to know how many decks are available off the bat. It was intended only for information, and not to serve as a note that it was the maximum that would ever be printed of this deck.
Whenever we have plans for only 1 print run of a deck, we are sure to use phrases such as "Only X amount will ever be printed".  In the case of the Curators, we were not 100% sure if we would print another run or not, but the possibility always existed.
The 2nd print run of Curator is still the same edition - as no changes are made.  We only assign new edition numbers when there are significant design changes to the deck - IE the original NOC and NOC v2.  Both print runs of Curators are very small and considered limited.  The decision to keep all elements the same on the 2nd print run was discussed and agreed upon by Emmanuel and by our team.
It is of course never our desire to mislead anyone in regards to our products. Curator is an amazing deck, and we received multiple emails daily requesting that it be made available again, so we ran a new batch. I hope this helps to eliminate any confusion."
Thank you, and we hope this helps!
-HOPC Team

There are people on this site in the Sell/Trade/ISO board that have these listed for $20!  They removed the description stating Limited Artist Edition from their website.  I don't think I'm being unfair in my argument.

At the end of the day I really don't give a crap because if its interesting and suits my tastes I will buy it.  As a collector I enjoy the collectable aspect of Limited and First Editions.  If you are going to put a quantity and call it limited, it should be.  I agree with Don products need to pass the test of time.  I think the deck is beautiful and I'd like more people to have them.  Hell even if they sold them in Walgreens and millions are sold I would be more than happy.  But then my kids will then have the scarce first 3500 first edition after I'm dead and buried.

[Collector]

@yoelanshel, you are absolutely right in your arguments and your criticism.

Feel the difference:
Curator Deck First Run 3500 decks
Curator Deck Limited Artist Edition 3500 decks

We will have the second run of Curator deck on our site soon
"Curator Deck - Back in Stock"

I guess any person who has a head on his(her) shoulders should understand everything. But is it something new for this market?.. for any market these days?

Many companies exploit those marketing tricks like devils, communicate on Facebook to advertise their products - any dancing to get more money. But in case of some uncomfortable questions, loud critisism or fail they don't know that Facebook exists and just recall that they actually work for 15-16 years old kids and are not professionals to be deeply criticized.

[yoel]

@Collector.  Thank you.

I agree completely.  Im not on Facebook or any social media.  Maybe twitter but I only use it to keep up on music.  But I don't agree with those marketing techniques.  Here is another one that I find amusing that I have noticed for quite sometime.  It makes me questions their motives.  I can think of a few of my own..  Ill use this one for example but there are others.

When the Altruism Deck was released and there were the limited amount of Snow Owls.  They sold out. It was removed from their site.  Months and months later after they have been sold out and not to be printed again they add the listing back to their site stating that they are sold out.  Now if there was a section of the site to browse info on older cards that were out of print then OK.  Why would this be added back to the site months later if it is a non production item, if not only to drive the secondary market value.  To me that raises some questions personally.  Im not making any accusations this is just my opinion.  I feel that if you are deceptive in your marketing then there is a possibility that you are deceptive in you business ethics and practice. 

[Don Boyer]

@Collector.  Thank you.

I agree completely.  Im not on Facebook or any social media.  Maybe twitter but I only use it to keep up on music.  But I don't agree with those marketing techniques.  Here is another one that I find amusing that I have noticed for quite sometime.  It makes me questions their motives.  I can think of a few of my own..  Ill use this one for example but there are others.

When the Altruism Deck was released and there were the limited amount of Snow Owls.  They sold out. It was removed from their site.  Months and months later after they have been sold out and not to be printed again they add the listing back to their site stating that they are sold out.  Now if there was a section of the site to browse info on older cards that were out of print then OK.  Why would this be added back to the site months later if it is a non production item, if not only to drive the secondary market value.  To me that raises some questions personally.  Im not making any accusations this is just my opinion.  I feel that if you are deceptive in your marketing then there is a possibility that you are deceptive in you business ethics and practice.

Ah, but there's something you're forgetting about in your statement regarding the Snow Owls - they make jack squat on the secondary market.  They're the PRIMARY market.  They're not on eBay, they don't operate an after-market store - when it hits the secondary market they've already made their money and that's it.  It's not like royalties are collected or something...

It's not unheard of to keep items on the inventory screen.  De'vo/Handlordz has an entire page of nothing but sold out products.  Ellusionist has all of their never-sold and no-longer-for-sale decks listed as sold out and kept on the site IF they are still occasionally used as premium giveaways, allowing potential recipients to see the photos and read the ad copy before deciding whether they want the premium or not.  (I think it's also something to do with the new inventory system they're using since the site rebuild, but I could be mistaken.)  There doesn't have to be an ulterior or sinister motive behind it.

I will grant that it could have been misunderstood or appear deceiving to announce there's 3,500 of a deck when it's released, only to print more identical copies after it sells out - but truth be told, they're right in that they never said that was all that would ever be made.  You guys do remember that it was one of the missions behind HOPC in the first place, right?  To break the Kickstarter/limited-edition cycle and allow decks to have more than just a single print run.

[Collector]

...

When the Altruism Deck was released and there were the limited amount of Snow Owls.  They sold out. It was removed from their site.  Months and months later after they have been sold out and not to be printed again they add the listing back to their site stating that they are sold out.  Now if there was a section of the site to browse info on older cards that were out of print then OK.  Why would this be added back to the site months later if it is a non production item, if not only to drive the secondary market value.  To me that raises some questions personally.  Im not making any accusations this is just my opinion.  I feel that if you are deceptive in your marketing then there is a possibility that you are deceptive in you business ethics and practice.

I think those pages can only prove the originality of the deck but don’t affect prices on secondary market. Runs, problems with servers of sellers (read problems with getting decks), limited propositions, artificial rarity, etc – can.

I am more than sure that those problems with pages are the result of some problems in programming code of their site.

[yoel]

...

I think those pages can only prove the originality of the deck but don’t affect prices on secondary market. Runs, problems with servers of sellers (read problems with getting decks), limited propositions, artificial rarity, etc – can.

I am more than sure that those problems with pages are the result of some problems in programming code of their site.

Ah, but there's something you're forgetting about in your statement regarding the Snow Owls - they make jack squat on the secondary market.  They're the PRIMARY market.  They're not on eBay, they don't operate an after-market store - when it hits the secondary market they've already made their money and that's it.  It's not like royalties are collected or something...

It's not unheard of to keep items on the inventory screen.  De'vo/Handlordz has an entire page of nothing but sold out products.  Ellusionist has all of their never-sold and no-longer-for-sale decks listed as sold out and kept on the site IF they are still occasionally used as premium giveaways, allowing potential recipients to see the photos and read the ad copy before deciding whether they want the premium or not.  (I think it's also something to do with the new inventory system they're using since the site rebuild, but I could be mistaken.)  There doesn't have to be an ulterior or sinister motive behind it.

I will grant that it could have been misunderstood or appear deceiving to announce there's 3,500 of a deck when it's released, only to print more identical copies after it sells out - but truth be told, they're right in that they never said that was all that would ever be made.  You guys do remember that it was one of the missions behind HOPC in the first place, right?  To break the Kickstarter/limited-edition cycle and allow decks to have more than just a single print run.

The Snow Owls might be a bad example for resale value.   In no way did I mean to insinuate that they have ulterior motives.
I do agree that a server side error is a possible cause.  I think if its sold out not to be sold again it should not be listed with the for sale items.  Who am I to say how they run their operation though.  Just to compare. What if all the cell phone stores started keeping all the advertisements up for the old models that were out long ago not to be for sale again.. Just to be fair Im an equal opportunity hater.. Its not only hopc or tbc its all of them. I think if its never to be sold again take it off the menu.

[Don Boyer]

The Snow Owls might be a bad example for resale value.   In no way did I mean to insinuate that they have ulterior motives.
I do agree that a server side error is a possible cause.  I think if its sold out not to be sold again it should not be listed with the for sale items.  Who am I to say how they run their operation though.  Just to compare. What if all the cell phone stores started keeping all the advertisements up for the old models that were out long ago not to be for sale again.. Just to be fair Im an equal opportunity hater.. Its not only hopc or tbc its all of them. I think if its never to be sold again take it off the menu.

Even that cellphone carrier example is a poor example.  Cellphone go out of date faster than white bread these days - there'd be no point in keeping the old tech around unless you were practically or actually giving it away with new contracts (or you were making a museum in your store).  Playing cards don't really go out of date - the basic design has been the same for around six centuries, give or take.

Now, consider this - the Snow Owls are sold out for retail purposes, BUT they still have some for the purposes of contest prizes and premium giveaways.  Which is exactly what Ellusionist does - decks like Red Artifice and Sultan Republic Treasury Edition can no longer be bought, and decks like Gold Arcane never could be bought, but they still have them for contests and "buy X, get a free deck" promotions.  Then it does make sense to keep it listed in your inventory - you're building up an anticipation factor for the next time the deck is offered in some way.  Mixing it with the "for sale" items gets them in people's faces more, as opposed to relegating them to a "rewards/prizes" page that most people won't be browsing on a regular basis.

[yoel]

The Snow Owls might be a bad example for resale value.   In no way did I mean to insinuate that they have ulterior motives.
I do agree that a server side error is a possible cause.  I think if its sold out not to be sold again it should not be listed with the for sale items.  Who am I to say how they run their operation though.  Just to compare. What if all the cell phone stores started keeping all the advertisements up for the old models that were out long ago not to be for sale again.. Just to be fair Im an equal opportunity hater.. Its not only hopc or tbc its all of them. I think if its never to be sold again take it off the menu.

Even that cellphone carrier example is a poor example.  Cellphone go out of date faster than white bread these days - there'd be no point in keeping the old tech around unless you were practically or actually giving it away with new contracts (or you were making a museum in your store).  Playing cards don't really go out of date - the basic design has been the same for around six centuries, give or take.

Now, consider this - the Snow Owls are sold out for retail purposes, BUT they still have some for the purposes of contest prizes and premium giveaways.  Which is exactly what Ellusionist does - decks like Red Artifice and Sultan Republic Treasury Edition can no longer be bought, and decks like Gold Arcane never could be bought, but they still have them for contests and "buy X, get a free deck" promotions.  Then it does make sense to keep it listed in your inventory - you're building up an anticipation factor for the next time the deck is offered in some way.  Mixing it with the "for sale" items gets them in people's faces more, as opposed to relegating them to a "rewards/prizes" page that most people won't be browsing on a regular basis.

Correct cell phones go out of date.. The way I look at it if it is cards that are out of print are just as good as an out of date cell phone.  Maybe not in every aspect of the comparison because Cards don't go out of date to the point where you cat use them.  Im gonna lay off this because my opinion is not gonna change.  I come from a big business background.  Little discrepancies in advertising and updated and accurate information in my websites is what I look for to ensure all is well.  I can somehow agree with the promotional/giveaway idea.  Again I believe that if its not for sale get it off.  If its for informational purpose stick it on an info page.. With dates and info of when the decks came out.  So people interested in collecting can have a reference point from the source.