Author (Read 16040 times)

NathanCanadas · « **Reply #75 on:** April 19, 2012, 12:41:16 PM »

Quote from: awretch on April 19, 2012, 11:39:32 AM

Quote from: Don Boyer on April 19, 2012, 11:17:15 AM
What, exactly, is your take on the quality of the cards themselves, and not the packaging?

This really looks like a case of an excellent design in the hands of a terrible card-print shop, or at least one that's not up to the standards we're used to around here. I'd be really curious to know more about who printed it and who designed it.

I've been playing with mine for 2 days now and to be honest, it really isn't as bad as the first impression I got from the box and packaging. Although they might be some USPC knockoff, once broken into, they actually handle pretty well and i've got no problems doing fans, spreads and faro too. Not bad for a knockoff IMO.

One thing I'm still curious, the side says Maxwell Playing Card Company, any ideas?

Here's what I've found for Maxwell Playing Card Company. Not much.
http://www.vliegeruit.com/osc/maxwell-playing-card-m-1530.html

Don Boyer · « **Reply #76 on:** April 19, 2012, 02:19:39 PM »

After hearing from 52cartes via Facebook, I decided that there's too many questions about this deck and did some research. I just got off the phone with Tiffany Mahan at USPC about this deck.

She stated that while it's possible that someone may have printed a bogus run, this was indeed a USPC-made product, probably for an international customer. There was more than one print run of it, and the last she's aware of was in 2008. The lack of legal text on some of the box flaps is consistent with the company policy that was in effect at the time, so boxes with the legal text are probably from a preceding print run.

Assuming that a counterfeiter didn't make a copy of this deck recently, the quality issues that people are now experiencing are more likely due to improper long-term storage of the decks under excessively warm temperatures. It would affect the cellophane wrapping and the cards themselves negatively.

If you have any issues regarding a Pandora Vine Backs deck you've received, she stated that she'd be happy to look into the problem, and requests that you mail the deck(s) in question to her:

USPC
300 Gap Way
Erlanger, KY 41018
UNITED STATES
Attn.: Tiffany Mahan

I consider it very unlikely that some counterfeiter would make copies of an relatively-unknown deck like this when so many riper and more valuable targets abound, and the simplest explanation in this case is probably the correct one - it's an old deck that sat in the back of a hot warehouse for too long. I'm still interested in getting some for myself, but not at the outrageous prices some shops have been charging. We have guys right here on the Discourse selling them for under $10 a pack, some for way under.

Nathan, that site you found doesn't appear to be the Maxwell Playing Card Company. It appears to be a northern European online shop that simply chose to list the item with the company name that appears on the side of the box. Tiffany said as much when she saw it.

EDIT: I want to give a big thank-you to 52cartes (Google Translate English version here)- he was the one who brought this to my attention in the first place and motivated me to track this problem down and get answers.

LeonJL · « **Reply #77 on:** April 19, 2012, 02:44:06 PM »

Well, that does explain why the cards themselves do handle better once broken into. Maybe everyone who got the decks (myself included) was too bias when we saw the condition of the packaging and didn't really break into the deck enough and give it a chance. Given the fact that it might have stored for a while, I'm now glad to say that the cards themselves are not warped in any way, at least the ones I got wasn't. So it seems just the box themselves are affected.

Another thing, does this mean the Pandora Vine Backs are out of print and what is on the market is all that's remaining? How many print runs were there exactly? Any estimates on how many of these decks are in circulation?

Divided Mind · « **Reply #78 on:** April 19, 2012, 04:05:23 PM »

This is odd. I got a few of the white decks, and they honestly look like they just shipped from the factory. The cellophane is in great shape. No tears, wear, no rips, or dents.

So, did I just get lucky?

sinsandman · « **Reply #79 on:** April 19, 2012, 04:15:27 PM »

Don, thank you for doing so much research on these. It sounds like what we have may be a fairly rare deck that is no longer able to be had. That would explain the quick sale outs. The fact that once they are broke in they handle well speaks well of the deck. Interesting indeed

Don Boyer · « **Reply #80 on:** April 20, 2012, 12:25:33 AM »

Quote from: awretch on April 19, 2012, 02:44:06 PM

Another thing, does this mean the Pandora Vine Backs are out of print and what is on the market is all that's remaining? How many print runs were there exactly? Any estimates on how many of these decks are in circulation?

The last print run was in '08. But there was more than one print run - and potentially, the owner of the design could create more. Tiffany didn't have those details for me, I'm afraid, stating that it was an international order, so I'm assuming that either the didn't have access to those details or wasn't at liberty to share them.

Quote from: Divided Mind on April 19, 2012, 04:05:23 PM

This is odd. I got a few of the white decks, and they honestly look like they just shipped from the factory. The cellophane is in great shape. No tears, wear, no rips, or dents.

So, did I just get lucky?

Lucky sounds about right.

Quote from: sinsandman on April 19, 2012, 04:15:27 PM

Don, thank you for doing so much research on these. It sounds like what we have may be a fairly rare deck that is no longer able to be had. That would explain the quick sale outs. The fact that once they are broke in they handle well speaks well of the deck. Interesting indeed

I don't know about rare, really. I just know it's a deck that's had at least two print runs and could potentially have more. I wish someone who owns one (HINT-HINT-HINT) would print DETAILED PHOTOS of the box, AoS, etc. so we can find out more about this deck...

LeonJL · « **Reply #81 on:** April 20, 2012, 01:24:27 AM »

The boxes have limited info on them, and when I say limited, I mean REALLY limited. See for youself, no year, barcode, anything whatsoever. The bottom just says "Looking for something?"

The AoS didn't have anything written on them other than :PANDORA, VINE BACKS. (see photos posted by KT on page 2) all the court cards, face cards, jokers and even gaffs are exactly the same.

Don Boyer · « **Reply #82 on:** April 20, 2012, 02:35:01 AM »

A quick Google search at Magicpedia turned up Mike Maxwell, a publisher/magician. Could this be his personal deck?

I'm betting this was a magician's personal deck, not really intended for resale in the first place, and someone just found a buttload of them in a back room...

sinsandman · « **Reply #83 on:** April 20, 2012, 07:17:56 PM »

Ok...Let's get down to business with a review

I am lucky enough to have scored some of the decks that had good cello and no damage apparently. Let's start with the white deck;

Design: I am liking the back design here. The vine design is detailed enough to draw attention but simple enough to not scream "Look at me!!"
All the pips are custom as well as every ace. So this is a fully custom deck. The court cards are sick as well. They sport deep colors and very contrasting eyes with a purple glow.....

you know what....I am more of a video review kind of guy. I'm just going to say this. The stock is thin and great for springs and the likes. It fanned quite well right out of the box. and here are some pics. The gaff cards are not the same either. The white contains the pictured queen card and a double backer (white/black). And the black deck contains the ace/3 cards.

Gared_Crawford · « **Reply #84 on:** May 12, 2012, 10:51:24 PM »

Hello All,

I just did a Google search for "Pandora Vine Backs" and I found this thread. It would seem that there is quite a bit of speculation going on about this deck. Hopefully I can answer all questions you might have about the deck.

First things first: I designed this deck. Before the market was flooded with custom decks(other than ellusionist and T11 decks) I decided to design a custom deck that I myself would like using and perhaps other magicians as well. I started this process back in 2007 as a fun side project. I am a professional violinist by trade and for the last 5 years I have been the concertmaster of the Evansville Philharmonic in Evansville, IN. So with limited time on my hands it took me a while to actually complete the designs as I was doing it in my spare time...it drove my girlfriend nuts!

Once I had the design completed I contacted the USPCC. I'd like to note that going into this project I was completely ignorant as to how things were done at the USPCC and I even explained that to them. The weird thing is that, knowing it was my first time doing business with them, they gave me almost zero information about what my options were. I.E...they didn't tell me that there were two different presses at the factory...they told me nothing about the quality ratings ( Q3, Q1...)...different finishes...not to mention a bunch of other crucial information that would have helped in making these decks a more successful product.

The initial idea was to have these printed for my own use. At that time the minimum order was 1,000 decks of cards. The sales rep that was assigned to my order only told me that much...they failed to mention that they would be printed on the sheet fed press...or ANYTHING about multiple presses AT ALL. So I thought to myself...."hmmm...I have two designs(black and white)...I wonder if they would print 500 hundred of each?" So I asked the sales rep and he said "Yes...yeah sure we can do that for you" Little did I know and apparently him either, that it had to be a minimum of 1000 per design. So he gave me an inaccurate quote based on the 500/500 idea.

One more important factor came into play here. I placed my order with them literally weeks before they were about to move to their new facility in Erlanger, KY. It is also important to note that I had no idea they were relocating or that the sheet-fed press at the new facility would yield much nicer decks...and remember, as far as I knew, there was only one press that they printed everything on.

So I go off to play in the Missouri Symphony for the summer and while there I get a call from the lady in the custom deck division. She says "Hi Gared, we've finished printing your decks. There are 1,190 black decks and 1,220 white decks! Your total is $@,#%&!"

All of a sudden I am handed a bill for more than twice the amount of cards I was expecting to get. I don't know if any of you have printed decks with USPCC but when the do a run...it is normal for them to over run and produce more than you ordered. So what happened here was that my sales rep was misinformed...he also didn't communicate with the press team at all because if he had told them I wanted 500 of each deck...they would have laughed in his face and said "Dude!...the minimum is 1,000 decks. Call your client back and tell them that they need to budget for and be expecting 2,000 decks!" But of course this never occurred...so the press team just did what they were supposed to and printed roughly 1,000 of each. Keep in mind here that I essentially signed a contract with them that stated I would be getting 500 of each deck and that I would pay for said decks. I had the numbers in writing.

After explaining my situation to the woman in charge or the custom division...we reached an agreement that I would pay a reduced amount for all the extra decks that I wasn't expecting to get. I was still out quite a bit more than I had budgeted for...but at least the cards were finished.

So the cards were shipped to my home in Evansville (a friend signed for the delivery) and on one of my days off I drove back home to check them out.

When I opened one of the bricks of white cards I was shocked to find that not only was the cellophane job on at least half of them atrocious...but the finish was nothing like what I was expecting...I had asked for a high emboss and what I got was nearly a smooth finish like Aladdins but with a much inferior coating on them. Also the artwork was somehow altered...as if they had screwed up the transparency levels of the different layers in my photoshop file. So then I opened a brick of the black ones to find the same problem with the cellophane but was relieved to see that at least the artwork look pretty much how it should and the finish was just OK. I had also requested seal stickers and none of the decks had those either.

I contacted the USPCC and gave them my complaints. I also quickly read over the contract to see what my options for returning them was. They asked me to send them two bad decks so they could see what I was talking about. After talking to many people and several mild arguments I had at least convinced them to take back the white decks and reprint them. They refused to reprint the black decks because they said they thought they looked and handled fine. I should also mention that I was sent some proof sheets right before the decks were printed that looked nothing like the decks that I eventually received. The proofs looked perfect. I even had to sign off on these proofs saying that they looked correct and then send it back to them.

They eventually reprinted the White decks...but this time it was done in the new facility in Erlanger. I actually drove to KY to pick them up myself and return the defective white decks. When I got there I was quick to open one and inspect it. I was pleased with the deck. The difference was stunning so much so that the new White decks were now of a noticeably higher quality than the black decks that they refused to reprint...this was annoying to say the least. I pleaded with them one more time about reprinting the black decks as well but they still refused. One of the printing guys that I spoke with even claimed that he had warned me to wait until they moved to the new facility to have my decks printed because the Cincinnati sheet-fed press was apparently an old piece of junk that was on it's last leg. He of course never said this to me...maybe he meant to. I definitely would have taken his advice...I mean think about it...if you were about to invest thousands of dollars in cards...wouldn't you heed the warning of an "expert" to insure that you got the best possible product in the end?

Anyway...that's pretty much the whole story. It was an undesirable experience for me to say the least. It left a bad taste in my mouth. I think it was just a bit of bad timing and bad luck. Fortunately things are supposed to be much better now that the USPCC has settled into the new facility. They used to say that if you wanted good cards you should have them printed on the WEB press...but now you can get very good cards off the new Sheet-fed press and a lot of smaller run custom decks are being printed on said press.

I'm glad to hear that people actually like the design. The good news is that I have cleaned it up quite a bit to make it a bit more striking...and I've also redesigned the tuck cases and court cards. If I do have them reprinted you can look forward to them having a nicer finish and improved artwork. I also have about 5 other designs that could be printed some day. I consider this one to be the most unique though. The other designs are more classical in nature.

I'd also like to say that this project was never about making money for me. I love cards and I liked the idea of having my own design printed. I have no control over how much people are selling them for. I just sold what I had left to Murphy's Magic Supplies and barely made back the money I spent on them. I do feel very strongly though that a deck of cards (even custom) should never cost more than $5. Maybe $6 but I think that is pushing it. I've considered submitting my design to the newly unveiled HOPC website in hopes that they could be printed properly some day. And I would do what ever I could to keep the costs down...I want people to use them and enjoy them...not worry about how much they cost.

I must say though that now that there are so many custom decks I'm kind of losing my interest a bit. Like one of you said "they are all starting to blend together"...I agree. If I had known there would be so many black and white deck sets I would have considered going down a different road. That being said I have the vineBack design in about 20 different colors ready to go. I believe even if the design is very modern it should still retain some the classical traits and form that decks like Bikes and Aladdin's have. I.E....white borders and standard format pips....and I must say that I still prefer court cards that have the border on the face as well.

If you guys are interested I could post some pics of the updated design.

All the best,
Gared Crawford

sinsandman · « **Reply #85 on:** May 12, 2012, 11:11:47 PM »

I, for one, would love to see whatever you have to show.

Jin Jian · « **Reply #86 on:** May 13, 2012, 12:05:46 AM »

Nice story you have .. and also if it possible pls show me your design

NathanCanadas · « **Reply #87 on:** May 13, 2012, 12:34:37 AM »

First of all, welcome to the forums! It seems you've had a rough experience, but I'd be glad to see what else you have in store for us!

Don Boyer · « **Reply #88 on:** May 13, 2012, 12:47:52 AM »

Welcome aboard, Gared! If you have more designs for potential decks, post away on the Design & Development board - I'm sure you'd have no shortage of people interested in seeing them around here.

Dudeee · « **Reply #89 on:** May 13, 2012, 12:59:15 AM »

Personally the deck looks nice to me, and I'm glad that there's now some clarity to the history of the cards.

I wonder how did the decks end up in Asia?

Did USPCC comment on why the crappy packages?

Gared_Crawford · « **Reply #90 on:** May 13, 2012, 05:32:00 AM »

As far as the poor cellophane job goes...my guess is that these cards were finished just as they were clearing out the Cincinnati factory. At that point I think their total operation was in complete chaos. And right after that they had quite a turn around of personnel from what I'm told.

Gared_Crawford · « **Reply #91 on:** May 13, 2012, 06:40:55 AM »

Here's a peek at the updated design.

frostchew · « **Reply #92 on:** May 13, 2012, 12:30:38 PM »

Quote from: Dudeee on May 13, 2012, 12:59:15 AM

Personally the deck looks nice to me, and I'm glad that there's now some clarity to the history of the cards.

I wonder how did the decks end up in Asia?

Did USPCC comment on why the crappy packages?

Gared mentioned that he sold off the bulk remaining of his stash to Murphy's Magic Supplies, which is a magic wholesale company in the USA that sells only to retailers. I suppose the major resellers in our region got hold of the decks from MMS.

Jin Jian · « **Reply #93 on:** May 13, 2012, 01:16:24 PM »

are the deck design the same ?? is it just a second run ?

Gared_Crawford · « **Reply #94 on:** May 13, 2012, 01:55:31 PM »

They have been modified quite a bit. The outer borders have been removed to increase the size of the actual image. I also did a lot of intricate outlining and shadows to make the vines stand out more from the background and the center rings. All the court cards are new and the Aces have been visually embossed to add depth. Obviously the tuck cases are different as well. It's not quite finished but it should look a lot nicer than the originals.

NathanCanadas · « **Reply #95 on:** May 13, 2012, 01:55:54 PM »

Quote from: Jin Jian on May 13, 2012, 01:16:24 PM

are the deck design the same ?? is it just a second run ?

Please make sure to read the comments above before asking a question. Gared Crawford is the designer of the deck and those are some updates on his original design. These aren't actually on the Vine backs, but he is considering printing some different versions with different designs and colors.

Edit: Mr. Crawford beat me to it.

Jin Jian · « **Reply #96 on:** May 13, 2012, 02:13:57 PM »

Quote from: NathanCanadas on May 13, 2012, 01:55:54 PM

Quote from: Jin Jian on May 13, 2012, 01:16:24 PM
are the deck design the same ?? is it just a second run ?
Please make sure to read the comments above before asking a question. Gared Crawford is the designer of the deck and those are some updates on his original design. These aren't actually on the Vine backs, but he is considering printing some different versions with different designs and colors.

Edit: Mr. Crawford beat me to it.

Please also make sure to read the comment above before saying something .. if i did not read his story how could i say nice story bro in the above post ?? let me give you advice do not people to keep quite when you yourself are talking .. that what my teachers always say to my classmate ..

what i was trying to do is asking the designer what is the change in design .. since i do not own any vine backs playing cards and the picture he provided is not really details so i could not compare with the 1st version

Gared_Crawford · « **Reply #97 on:** May 13, 2012, 04:19:03 PM »

Here are some pics comparing the original design with the new ones. You should be able to see a lot more clarity in the vines and background of the modified back design. The originals are on the left. You must click to view the full size image to really see what I am talking about.

Eyeball · « **Reply #98 on:** May 13, 2012, 06:07:19 PM »

Quote from: Gared_Crawford on May 13, 2012, 04:19:03 PM

Here are some pics comparing the original design with the new ones. You should be able to see a lot more clarity in the vines and background of the modified back design. The originals are on the left. You must click to view the full size image to really see what I am talking about.

I would love to see these new improved designs get printed, I really liked the decks when I first saw them but all the complaints with the package, handling, etc, made me not want to get them. Hopefully you are able to do another print run sometime in the future. The new design focuses much more on the central part of the card (the vines coming together to make the main symbol) and I like that a lot.