Bicycle Dark Templar (KS)

[Rob Wright]

Bicycle Dark Templar

Project by: Cardicians
First created, $15,000 goal, $10/1-$20/2 earlybirds, $25/2 standard USPC printing

[ronyo_faukx]

I think my mind just exploded, these cards look SO good! 

[Anthony]

Wow! These KS projects are killing me.

[nosejam]

Same here, I'm trying to save money but KS keeps stopping me.  I might have to ban myself from even looking at threads with (KS) in the title

[sprouts1115]

These cards defiantly have the circle bling-bling factor.  I don't think you could play a game of Texas Hold'em with these cards. The indexes need to be easier to distinguish.  I like the way he has the rank of the card inside the suit, but of course you know why. It leaves more room for the artwork.

Their video is just over 3 mins which is fine, but with all the hi-tech images not a lot of information.  They have the standard fluff items, but the poker chips are digital and seem to good to be true.  Who is making them?  They have a stretch goal at "25,000 - custom finish for all decks"  Did something change at the USPCC? I do like the 45,000 stretch goal "custom premium wax seals"  I thought of doing that, but not for 5,000 decks.  Seems a lot of hard work.  I would really check these guys out before throwing money at them. They are not connected to Facebook and have not backed any Projects, but they say "We are a small New York based workshop and design studio".

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNGPxA3H7FA    This stuff is made in New York City

[Anthony]

These cards defiantly have the circle bling-bling factor.  I don't think you could play a game of Texas Hold'em with these cards. The indexes need to be easier to distinguish.  I like the way he has the rank of the card inside the suit, but of course you know why. It leaves more room for the artwork.

Their video is just over 3 mins which is fine, but with all the hi-tech images not a lot of information.  They have the standard fluff items, but the poker chips are digital and seem to good to be true.  Who is making them?  They have a stretch goal at "25,000 - custom finish for all decks"  Did something change at the USPCC? I do like the 45,000 stretch goal "custom premium wax seals"  I thought of doing that, but not for 5,000 decks.  Seems a lot of hard work.  I would really check these guys out before throwing money at them. They are not connected to Facebook and have not backed any Projects, but they say "We are a small New York based workshop and design studio".

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNGPxA3H7FA    This stuff is made in New York City

All valid points Sprouts, that's the beauty of KS though, you can put in a "Hold" so to speak and do your research.....if it's all good, great, if not, you can always bail. Thanks for posting those details 

[ronyo_faukx]

These cards defiantly have the circle bling-bling factor.  I don't think you could play a game of Texas Hold'em with these cards. The indexes need to be easier to distinguish.  I like the way he has the rank of the card inside the suit, but of course you know why. It leaves more room for the artwork.

Their video is just over 3 mins which is fine, but with all the hi-tech images not a lot of information.  They have the standard fluff items, but the poker chips are digital and seem to good to be true.  Who is making them?  They have a stretch goal at "25,000 - custom finish for all decks"  Did something change at the USPCC? I do like the 45,000 stretch goal "custom premium wax seals"  I thought of doing that, but not for 5,000 decks.  Seems a lot of hard work.  I would really check these guys out before throwing money at them. They are not connected to Facebook and have not backed any Projects, but they say "We are a small New York based workshop and design studio".

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNGPxA3H7FA    This stuff is made in New York City

If you check the 'Comments' section, you'd have gotten an explanation.

"My name is Michael Encarnacao, and together with Wayne Grecco we are no strangers to designing cards as I personally have designed many decks for the elite playing cards brand, however this deck does not fit into their portfolio, so I decided Id launch my own brand where I am free to be as creative as I feel. Please rest assured if this project gets funded all backers will receive their cards and rewards.

thanks again
Michael"

[whaam]

  I'll say something about this deck design, it deserves it.

When I saw the project...I thought WOW, really looks great. Choice of color is fantastic.
 It reminded me of Evolution deck that had a great success on KS recently. Both are gamer decks. 3D artwork, inspired by PC games (or Xbox...) design. Evolution based on game menus design and Templar on overall game look.
Fantasy characters painted though, all else... 3D artwork.

And strangely but all pics that look like photos are actually also 3D work. Coins, chips, wooden box, uncut sheets, even T-shirt is in 3D.
Clearly we have some serious (good) programmers joining the card world.

I like it all, it is not intended for actual, serious play but for having fun playing cards.

Only thing,...rewards.. 1000 limited decks for $15 (!!...ok, you get a "rare" chip too , 200 limited for $10.., after that you get 1 deck for $20, oh yeah...and a coin, limited. Those backers that come late on board after limited decks...can pledge for 2 deck (not 1,...2) option for $25, NOT Limited   

Johnny

[Candace B]

This deck is BEAUTIFUL! They look like they would be a little hard to play with just because the indexes blend in with everything else so well but I'm not sure that I care. I would buy this deck just for the art. This is pretty much $15 for an awesome matching set of mini art prints, and that is a killer good deal. :] And you CAN play with them, so who wouldn't want to play with such a good looking deck? At least a few games at the start to show them off. Then you can pull out a more standard deck later if you want your play to get more serious. :] This deck is awesome. :3

[Don Boyer]

This deck is squarely targeted at collectors and at artists.  At least it better be, because it's as close to 100% impractical as a deck of cards can get these days!  Beautiful, gorgeous art combined with little to no practical deck design work.  It's more of an art project than an actual deck, really.

But hey - I seem to recall many of us were saying the same thing about the Misc. Goods Co. deck from Pedale Design when it was originally launched.  Tyler Deeb was smart enough to take a little bit of design advice to improve the deck's practicality somewhat - I wonder if this project creator will do the same?

[Anthony]

This deck is squarely targeted at collectors and at artists.  At least it better be, because it's as close to 100% impractical as a deck of cards can get these days!  Beautiful, gorgeous art combined with little to no practical deck design work.  It's more of an art project than an actual deck, really.

But hey - I seem to recall many of us were saying the same thing about the Misc. Goods Co. deck from Pedal Design when it was originally launched.  Tyler Deb was smart enough to take a little bit of design advice to improve the deck's practicality somewhat - I wonder if this project creator will do the same?

I think this ones gonna stick pretty close to what you see Don, funding is going well, and it definitely is more of an art deck as you said, but that's OK by me 

[kdklown]

Update from the creators...

"Hey guys,

We have reached the $25,000 stretch goal! This means that we'll request USPC to make a special custom finish just for our cards. The cards will feel extra smooth when you play with them, and the ink will be better sealed. The custom finish improves the performance and makes the cards last longer.

We are currently designing some exciting new rewards and we'll update you soon.

Now let's move to the next stretch goal: metallic inks!

Thank you very much,

Mike & Wayne"

So my question is will USPC even consider entertaining the notion of creating a "custom finish" for such a small time customer?  Or is this their way of saying we're using magic finish?  If the answer is the latter it seems a little underhanded to me.

[Fred]

Definitely another way of saying Magic finish.

Basically a useless stretch goal targeted for the unaware.

[Anthony]

As much as I like the deck and at this point am still backing it, the "Custom Finish" comment even got me thinking yesterday. Why not be specific about what this custom finish is all about? Again, the beauty of KS, you can bail at any time if you want. Curiosity has got me so far, I'm gonna watch and see, but I'm already loosing my warm and fuzzy just on principle.

[Don Boyer]

Definitely another way of saying Magic finish.

Basically a useless stretch goal targeted for the unaware.

Actually, Magic Finish is the DEFAULT finish for custom decks from USPC these days, has been for a while.  You actually have to request to NOT have it and to get the standard finish instead.

This "custom finish" nonsense is smoke and mirrors - and I'm not talking about the decks...

As much as I like the deck and at this point am still backing it, the "Custom Finish" comment even got me thinking yesterday. Why not be specific about what this custom finish is all about? Again, the beauty of KS, you can bail at any time if you want. Curiosity has got me so far, I'm gonna watch and see, but I'm already loosing my warm and fuzzy just on principle.

I never had a warm and fuzzy for this in the first place!  But yeah, if I was a backer and I knew what I know, I'd be leery.

[magnacat]

i like this deck (as an art deck), and now that they have updated the pips to be clearer, they will look much better as a deck of cards as a whole. however, while this back looks to be nice, i am a little concerned... Don, you seem to have a good idea of what USPCC's capabilities are when it comes to printing designs with a lot of detail- are these backs going to come out well, do you think?

also, i sent the designers a message regarding the "custom finish", asking for a more detailed explanation... hopefully, they will get back to me soon, and we can see if it is what is feared (a shady attempt at deception). it's pretty low to advertise a "strech goal" of something that a good many of us know to be standard. if it is magic finish, it assumes everyone is too unconcerned to be up on the available features from USPCC for small-time producers, and this is just a LITTLE insulting to the backers.

[BiggerDee]

$50,000 streth goal...the cards will have a fibrous cellulose base ink carrier/delivery system!!

All kidding aside...

"Custom finish", I don't know. I don't care for art of this type, so the cards definitely aren't for me, but I can see the red flag being conencted to the flagpole in preparation to be raised. Backers, be very careful!

[magnacat]

hey guys... 

so, i heard back from the project creators on the finish issue, where i asked for further details, and here is what i got-

"Cardicians says:

... We asked USPC to test one idea we had for a custom finish for us. That first idea didn't worked as the cardswere sticking together, not playable. Then, we provided an alternative, that they said it works. This idea makes the cards more smooth.
It's not something that can be trademarked or used exclusively by us. It's just a process, based in the idea we had to improve the cards.
So, for obvious reasons, we can't share details publicly as everyone else would start doing the same.
Please give your cards a try when you get them, and then let us know your thoughts "

i don't know if this is helpful to anyone else, but i still feel like i'm where i was with my questions to begin with, really.  maybe it's true. i suppose it's possible that USPCC gave them the option to do this because of this designer's association with elite cards, because between them, they are doing more than a couple projects lately... ( ?)  at least they got back to me at all, which is more than i can say for many designers who are confronted with backer's questions. personally, i'm not too worried- i still like them enough to back for now.

[Don Boyer]

i like this deck (as an art deck), and now that they have updated the pips to be clearer, they will look much better as a deck of cards as a whole. however, while this back looks to be nice, i am a little concerned... Don, you seem to have a good idea of what USPCC's capabilities are when it comes to printing designs with a lot of detail- are these backs going to come out well, do you think?

USPC (and probably every other printer out there) has some difficulty with printing low contrast, dark images.  Two prime examples of this are the Bicycle Venom and Bicycle Venom Strike decks.  The artwork on both was great, but WYSIWYG does NOT apply to CMYK-printed playing cards.  The designs of both were overall very dark with what was supposed to be a few brighter details here and there, but the whole thing ended up looking like mud.

There was also a print run of the Black Arcane deck from E that had this same issue.  I'm guessing that an early print run looked too light, more gray than black, so they opted for a heavier shade of black.  Unfortunately this also resulted in much of the finer details on the design being lost in a sea of black ink.  The most recent print run I've seen has corrected this, going back to a lighter shade of black and allowing more details to show through.

A deck this dark, with the brighter areas mostly being just fine detail work, will probably (and I can't say with total certainty, but probably, based on recent history with similar decks) lose a lot of that detail work behind a mess of dark ink.

hey guys... 

so, i heard back from the project creators on the finish issue, where i asked for further details, and here is what i got-

"Cardicians says:

... We asked USPC to test one idea we had for a custom finish for us. That first idea didn't worked as the cardswere sticking together, not playable. Then, we provided an alternative, that they said it works. This idea makes the cards more smooth.
It's not something that can be trademarked or used exclusively by us. It's just a process, based in the idea we had to improve the cards.
So, for obvious reasons, we can't share details publicly as everyone else would start doing the same.
Please give your cards a try when you get them, and then let us know your thoughts "

i don't know if this is helpful to anyone else, but i still feel like i'm where i was with my questions to begin with, really.  maybe it's true. i suppose it's possible that USPCC gave them the option to do this because of this designer's association with elite cards, because between them, they are doing more than a couple projects lately... ( ?)  at least they got back to me at all, which is more than i can say for many designers who are confronted with backer's questions. personally, i'm not too worried- i still like them enough to back for now.

Wait - so they told you that the cards came out sticky and unplayable?  With the default MAGIC FINISH on them?  And that THEY told USPC to use "an alternative" based on an idea they had?


I call bullshit.

[magnacat]

USPC (and probably every other printer out there) has some difficulty with printing low contrast, dark images.  Two prime examples of this are the Bicycle Venom and Bicycle Venom Strike decks.  The artwork on both was great, but WYSIWYG does NOT apply to CMYK-printed playing cards.  The designs of both were overall very dark with what was supposed to be a few brighter details here and there, but the whole thing ended up looking like mud.

There was also a print run of the Black Arcane deck from E that had this same issue.  I'm guessing that an early print run looked too light, more gray than black, so they opted for a heavier shade of black.  Unfortunately this also resulted in much of the finer details on the design being lost in a sea of black ink.  The most recent print run I've seen has corrected this, going back to a lighter shade of black and allowing more details to show through.

A deck this dark, with the brighter areas mostly being just fine detail work, will probably (and I can't say with total certainty, but probably, based on recent history with similar decks) lose a lot of that detail work behind a mess of dark ink.

thanks for clearing up my concerns with the color, Don. i was actually horribly dissapointed with both venom decks (though they looked great in theory- as do these backs), so if that is going to be an issue here, what does it matter, had i even loved this back ?  (i mean, it's alright, and for the type of deck, it would have looked somewhat nice...) it's not like there are no other decks to tie up my (little bit of) money, right now anyway... for that matter, even just on kickstarter. 

Wait - so they told you that the cards came out sticky and unplayable?  With the default MAGIC FINISH on them?  And that THEY told USPC to use "an alternative" based on an idea they had?


I call bullshit.

i had a hard time with this, too. as i said, it didn't really aid me in determining an answer for my questions, even though i told them flat out they are possibly going to lose backers as a result of this claim alone (and not just for this project, but maybe future ones, as well). i even told them i was going to post the reply they gave me where others could see it, to address many people's concerns. i was pretty clear (from my message to them) what they needed to do, and this didn't help matters... at all.  oh well... at least now i know where the money will come from for my crystal additions in my black-out deck. 

[Don Boyer]

thanks for clearing up my concerns with the color, Don. i was actually horribly dissapointed with both venom decks (though they looked great in theory- as do these backs), so if that is going to be an issue here, what does it matter, had i even loved this back ?  (i mean, it's alright, and for the type of deck, it would have looked somewhat nice...) it's not like there are no other decks to tie up my (little bit of) money, right now anyway... for that matter, even just on kickstarter. 

So, you bought those decks!  Well then, you have a good rule of thumb to work from: if a deck's design/color palette in any way resembles the Venom decks on the screen, they'll likely end up looking like the Venom decks in print!

Here's the topic on those two decks, for people who are interested (and new):
http://aethercards.com/discourse/playing-card-plethora/bicycle-venom-and-venom-strike-from-alakazam-magic-(uk)/

[magnacat]

So, you bought those decks!  Well then, you have a good rule of thumb to work from: if a deck's design/color palette in any way resembles the Venom decks on the screen, they'll likely end up looking like the Venom decks in print!

this is a very easy way to judge color combinations such as these, with such thin lines... that's why i was worried. =[
thankfully, no, i didn't buy the venom decks, but they were given to me in the hopes i would like them based on what they looked like on screen... i don't recieve a lot of decks as gifts anymore, actually, as i doubt other's (non-card collector's) ability to pick out what i would want, after decks such as those.   when people do get me something, i like for them to look at some of the decks that i have, and judge from there. the venom decks actually serve as a "what not to do" for buying and designing, i believe, making this topic quite useful for those who haven't seen it.

but on the topic of the dark templar deck, is anyone here still backing this one?

[sprouts1115]

An Interesting question in the comment section:

Scout Johnson - "Hi Guys,
I sent y'all a private message earlier regarding the art for the court cards. I haven't received a reply, but I notice that all of the court cards have disappeared from the site. Can you clarify the status of the artwork?
Thanks
--scout
For those of you who are curious, it was pointed out to me that the artwork was very similar to that of another artist.
http://chevsy.deviantart.com/art/reaper-lady-255850991"


If anyone has invested some money in this deck, I would strongly suggest check out the comment section.  You have to think everything those guys have listed including Fluff items are digitally made.  Nothing is real. I don't know I may be wrong, but it look like another Founders deck...

[Don Boyer]

An Interesting question in the comment section:

Scout Johnson - "Hi Guys,
I sent y'all a private message earlier regarding the art for the court cards. I haven't received a reply, but I notice that all of the court cards have disappeared from the site. Can you clarify the status of the artwork?
Thanks
--scout
For those of you who are curious, it was pointed out to me that the artwork was very similar to that of another artist.
http://chevsy.deviantart.com/art/reaper-lady-255850991"


If anyone has invested some money in this deck, I would strongly suggest check out the comment section.  You have to think everything those guys have listed including Fluff items are digitally made.  Nothing is real. I don't know I may be wrong, but it look like another Founders deck...

I wouldn't go so far as to say that, Sprouts.  The project comments (as opposed to the update comments) have a comment from the project creators stating that they obtained rights to the artwork.  This was posted sometime yesterday:

Creator Cardicians - 1 day ago

Guys, we have a license to use the artwork, the rights to use (and print) the illustrations have been acquired through the shutterstock license of Vuk's work, if you are curious see here: http://www.shutterstock.com/g/fotokostic/sets/129457-vuk-ilustracije
We are currently trying to see the possibility of hiring him for future decks and also to improve our court cards, instead of paying shutterstock's expensive licenses. Thanks!

There are other things that stand out about this project.  It's clearly amateur work - they keep referring to indices/indexes as pips.  But everyone got their start somewhere, every deck designer around here that we love so dearly created a first project once, what seems like a long time ago but was not more than perhaps two years, often MUCH less.

[Rob Wright]

An Interesting question in the comment section:

Scout Johnson - "Hi Guys,
I sent y'all a private message earlier regarding the art for the court cards. I haven't received a reply, but I notice that all of the court cards have disappeared from the site. Can you clarify the status of the artwork?
Thanks
--scout
For those of you who are curious, it was pointed out to me that the artwork was very similar to that of another artist.
http://chevsy.deviantart.com/art/reaper-lady-255850991"


If anyone has invested some money in this deck, I would strongly suggest check out the comment section.  You have to think everything those guys have listed including Fluff items are digitally made.  Nothing is real. I don't know I may be wrong, but it look like another Founders deck...

I wouldn't go so far as to say that, Sprouts.  The project comments (as opposed to the update comments) have a comment from the project creators stating that they obtained rights to the artwork.  This was posted sometime yesterday:

Creator Cardicians - 1 day ago

Guys, we have a license to use the artwork, the rights to use (and print) the illustrations have been acquired through the shutterstock license of Vuk's work, if you are curious see here: http://www.shutterstock.com/g/fotokostic/sets/129457-vuk-ilustracije
We are currently trying to see the possibility of hiring him for future decks and also to improve our court cards, instead of paying shutterstock's expensive licenses. Thanks!

There are other things that stand out about this project.  It's clearly amateur work - they keep referring to indices/indexes as pips.  But everyone got their start somewhere, every deck designer around here that we love so dearly created a first project once, what seems like a long time ago but was not more than perhaps two years, often MUCH less.

This is the guy that supposedly did the art for Elites decks. It bothers me that they are using someone else's work, and did not disclose at the beginning. The could have just put a blurb- Some art by Vuk. or something like that

[Don Boyer]

This is the guy that supposedly did the art for Elites decks. It bothers me that they are using someone else's work, and did not disclose at the beginning. The could have just put a blurb- Some art by Vuk. or something like that

I'll grant you that.  But to me, this is one of the least practical decks I've seen in a long time, and I can't imagine that artwork surviving the USPC presses intact without looking like a mud puddle.  I think there's going to be more than enough disappointment to go around when this deck starts landing in people's mailboxes - assuming it doesn't become the next Founders deck.

[sprouts1115]

I'm very suspicious about this deck.  Especially when they said this:

Hey guys,

We have reached the $25,000 stretch goal! This means that we'll request USPC to make a special custom finish just for our cards. The cards will feel extra smooth when you play with them, and the ink will be better sealed. The custom finish improves the performance and makes the cards last longer.

We are currently designing some exciting new rewards and we'll update you soon.

Now let's move to the next stretch goal: metallic inks!

Thank you very much,

Mike & Wayne


Now they have metallic inks.  The way the USPCC described it to me.  It is either metallic or it is not.  There is no shading.  So, Don might be right if this deck is produced it might look like mud.  I do agree that they should have stated "Hey, we are a couple of guys making a deck of cards and we are using some else's art.  Back us please!!!  Time will see...