You are Here:
The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)

Author (Read 15671 times)

The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« on: November 23, 2011, 02:05:38 PM »
 

Kanped

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 894
    Posts
  • Reputation: 29

  • Facebook:

One thing to please bear in mind before posting here; heed Dudley from Street Fighter's advice and keep it classy; no need for abuse and name calling.  Ever.




Even though i am "christian" i don't believe in the idea of "god" but of a higher power.


But i celebrate christmas.


I didn't want the holiday thread to get caught up in a religious debate; not the place for it but I was curious about this statement and I have to ask.  To me, Christian would denote a belief that Jesus Christ was the son of God, saved our souls and is one with God.  Not believing in 'God' but a higher power of some kind to me should be described as 'Deism'. 


Also, do you believe in the Christian moral code and do you believe that morality comes from God?
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2011, 02:15:20 PM »
 

john

  • cham cham cham
  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 859
    Posts
  • Reputation: 48
  • "Shh don't wake the bitches" - Zimos
When I say i am "christian" i mean i have done all the things where i would be welcomed in a catholic church if i were to go to one.

Do I believe in jesus, no, seems to "out their" for it to be an option.

Jesus is the son of god and is god and is a ghost i mean come on.

So i guess you could say i am "Deism".
"I got my people, watching the corners, letting me know where the bitches are." - Zimos
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 02:44:09 PM »
 

Curt


  • 52 Plus Joker Member
  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 780
    Posts
  • Reputation: 74

  • Facebook:
I knew this topic was going to come up sooner or later.


First off, I will say that I am totally in favor of people believing in whatever they may choose and I believe that each person has the right to do so without discrimination.



The issue I have with some religions is it creates a hierarchy where non would have existed before. For example, I do not like how, in the christian religion, there is an all mighty Pope that has so much power over millions of people because of the religion, even though there is no mention of them in the bible. I just feel that religion has become to "man-made" in a sense that over the years it has been changed to a way that benefits some ( monetarily, power, ect.. ) while providing nothing but hope to others.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 08:28:46 PM by Curt »
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2011, 02:59:52 PM »
 

Kanped

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 894
    Posts
  • Reputation: 29

  • Facebook:
I would take the view that this was always the function of religion, not something that has grown over the years.  In fact, since the middle ages, I would argue that the control of the RC church has diminished, at least in its home base, Europe.  After its influence spread to Africa, that changed; it has as much power in parts of Africa now as it had in Europe although for the most part, they are more responsible for it, though.  However, they are still being vastly and dangerously irresponsible with their dogma on condom use and (in my opinion) abortion.  AIDS and unwanted pregnancy are rife, I believe due to the patriarchal nature of their society (which comes from the RC church) and RC dogma.  Women cannot chose to have children; when you empower women with that choice, poverty fades into obscurity, everywhere, every time.  Empowering women has never failed in history to eradicate poverty.  That's one of many problems I have with the dogma of the church; they are wilfully keeping people impoverished to maintain their interpretation of a fairly vague Bible verse, a dogma many of their followers in the 1st world choose to ignore. 
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2011, 05:50:16 PM »
 

xela

  • Queen of Clubs
  • *
  • 2,475
    Posts
  • Reputation: 171
  • Aspire. Conceive. Create.

  • DeviantArt:

  • YouTube:
My views on religion and morality can fill an entire book (hey! I'm actually writing one...)

In short, I don't believe in morals being defined by people. There is a set of morals out there that create a perfect society. Throughout our history, we have been developing our morals to attempt to reach perfection as best we could. Societies that refuse to adopt the morals most of us already have are left in the dust. They are the third world countries, the tribes, etc. While often times their cultures are still rich and interesting, their lives are without a doubt an infinite amount less luxurious than ours.

I don't believe in the notion that everything comes down to a moral issue either. "Pirating music is immoral." How so? To what extent does theft prevent moral perfection? In a society where theft is encouraged, you will have a countless number of issues. However, in a society where theft is incorrectly defined, that in and of itself is preventing us from reaching moral perfection. If pirating music, or anything else, over time shows to be a detriment to our society, then it can be defined as a bad moral standard. On the other hand, if it ends up enhancing society, it should be encouraged as a good moral standard. Neither of these events are likely, and it's my belief that an issue such as that is not a moral one, but along the lines of deciding what cereal to buy at the market.

I am a total utilitarian, but I define emotions as material things as well. A typical utilitarian ideology is that if it doesn't benefit society, then there is no need for it. I agree, but I know that a society wherein love, hate, elation, depression, etc. are looked upon as illogical frivolities (a core utilitarian belief) is also a society doomed to fail and resemble the societies in stories such as Brave New World.

When you acknowledge that moral perfection exists regardless of what we as people are currently deciding good morals are, you realize religion is insignificant when it comes to affecting your actions. Logical paradoxes prevent God as defined by any religion from existing, but the concept of moral perfection prevents religion from being a necessity in defining what is good and evil.

Because of this mentality, I would argue that a person with no religion doing a good deed is a better human being than a person with religion doing that same deed, and this is basically just reversing arguments that many proponents of religion use. "Atheists have no morals" is something I hear often. Without god to guide the atheist, who knows what they are capable of? Well, without guidance, you get to see people for who they truly are. No fear of Hell, no desire for Heaven, no doing good deeds to be in god's good graces. When an atheist donates to charity, it is purely because he or she has a true desire to do good.

As far as the whole battle of "is there a god?" goes, I think that battle has long been over. God as defined by modern day religion is completely and utterly false. Most religious people now are turning to spirituality and the belief in a higher power. This is not provable, and I personally think that there is nothing wrong in choosing to be spiritual. However, anything that is claiming to be true while having infinite paradoxes at its core is wrong.

Religion had its utilitarian purposes in the past, and those days are now over in many parts of the world. Civilization in the West is at the point where we simply cannot look to the Bible to help us understand complex issues like marriage, abortion, murder, etc.

Lastly, to anyone here that is religious, do not be offended by an atheist's ramblings. Instead, take a moment to consider their thoughts and challenge your own beliefs. You don't have to change them, but by definition the very thing that makes a human a human is the ability of introspection. An animal will blindly follow their habitual instincts. I guarantee the absolute worst thing to come out of opening your mind to beliefs that challenge your own is knowing you are inherently a better person than anyone who has yet to follow suite - and that goes for any side of any argument that has ever existed.

In retrospect, this was not "short" at all.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 05:50:46 PM by alex. »
Forum Founder.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2011, 06:13:25 PM »
 

john

  • cham cham cham
  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 859
    Posts
  • Reputation: 48
  • "Shh don't wake the bitches" - Zimos
Their will always be flaws in religion and in science. It doesn't matter who you ask that is a fact. I used to work at a church and would always talk to the pastor and make him prove that the earth was created by "god", he never could because i could always think of a way that made his theory wrong/ didn't make sense. Just the same as he would ask me how earth was created by a meteor or whatever s**t it is and he could always prove me wrong. Which is why i personally came to the reality that a higher power did this, not a "god" of any faith but just a higher power it is something you and I can't understand or most likely never will be able to. Regardless of all this though, people will always be stubborn about this and i am okay with that. :)
"I got my people, watching the corners, letting me know where the bitches are." - Zimos
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2011, 07:56:40 PM »
 

John B.

  • Don't you have work you should be doing? We are watching you.
  • Jack of Diamonds
  • *
  • 1,916
    Posts
  • Reputation: 49

  • YouTube:
I knew this topic was going to come up sooner or later.


First off, I will say that I am totally in favor of people believing in whatever they may choose and I believe that each person has the right to do so without discrimination.



The issue I have with some religions is it creates a hierarchy where non would have existed before. For example, I do not like how, in the christian religion, there is an all mighty Pope that has so much power over millions of people because of the religion, even though there is no mention of them in the bible. I just feel that religion has become to "man-made" in a sense that over the years it has been changed to a way that benefits some ( monetarily, power, ect.. ) while providing nothing but hope to others.

real quick wanted to say that is catholic not christian, big difference. im christian, i do not classify myself in a certain division but i do go to a baptist church.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2011, 08:23:46 PM »
 

Kanped

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 894
    Posts
  • Reputation: 29

  • Facebook:
I believe morals are created through evolution.  Those primitive people who would murder or steal etc. are ostracised from that society; people are naturally selected to be morally superior in order to survive.  I'm pretty much agreeing with Alex, I guess, just flipping it round; good morals do not make a good society but rather a good society maintains good morals to survive.  I also believe that societies based on evil morals can thrive; good does not have to conquer evil, here.  I just want people to be free and happy because, well, it makes me feel good.  'Do onto others' and all that (I'm pretty sure the sentiment is older than the verse).

I definitely agree that an atheist doing a good deed has more 'weight', if you like, than a theist doing same, if they believe they're doing it for their god.  I know plenty of religious people who do fantastic work for charity, or other people, with no thought given to their faith.  Personally, I prefer thinking of it in the classic 'Good people do good things, bad people do bad things but to make good people do bad things, you need religion' terms.  That only works if you broaden the scope of what religion is, in fairness; a better way to put that would be 'People will be who they are, if they're allowed to'.  Religion is a very effective way of turning people against their instincts, for better or worse. 

I also like to think the 'is there a god?' question is long over and the answer is a resounding 'NO'.  Ethicly, biologically and cosmologically, man has proven without a shadow of a doubt that there is no reason to believe in any kind of god.  That doesn't mean that you shouldn't believe in god; only that, if you choose to, you should understand that your belief is an illogical one.

The whole 'there's flaws in science, too' argument will be dead before too long.  We have answers to everything a believer could ask; the only problem is that sometimes we have several answers and we're not sure which is the right one.  The difference is that science does not demand an answer.  Science sets up circumstances and is shown an answer by testing and observing.  If any religion or belief in a higher power were tested under scientific circumstances, it would fail (and has done, many many times).  The answers that science gives us are as irrefutable as anything we see with our own eyes and is the only way we can see the world.

 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2011, 08:31:47 PM »
 

John B.

  • Don't you have work you should be doing? We are watching you.
  • Jack of Diamonds
  • *
  • 1,916
    Posts
  • Reputation: 49

  • YouTube:
I believe morals are created through evolution.  Those primitive people who would murder or steal etc. are ostracised from that society; people are naturally selected to be morally superior in order to survive.  I'm pretty much agreeing with Alex, I guess, just flipping it round; good morals do not make a good society but rather a good society maintains good morals to survive.  I also believe that societies based on evil morals can thrive; good does not have to conquer evil, here.  I just want people to be free and happy because, well, it makes me feel good.  'Do onto others' and all that (I'm pretty sure the sentiment is older than the verse).

I definitely agree that an atheist doing a good deed has more 'weight', if you like, than a theist doing same, if they believe they're doing it for their god.  I know plenty of religious people who do fantastic work for charity, or other people, with no thought given to their faith.  Personally, I prefer thinking of it in the classic 'Good people do good things, bad people do bad things but to make good people do bad things, you need religion' terms.  That only works if you broaden the scope of what religion is, in fairness; a better way to put that would be 'People will be who they are, if they're allowed to'.  Religion is a very effective way of turning people against their instincts, for better or worse. 

I also like to think the 'is there a god?' question is long over and the answer is a resounding 'NO'.  Ethicly, biologically and cosmologically, man has proven without a shadow of a doubt that there is no reason to believe in any kind of god.  That doesn't mean that you shouldn't believe in god; only that, if you choose to, you should understand that your belief is an illogical one.

The whole 'there's flaws in science, too' argument will be dead before too long.  We have answers to everything a believer could ask; the only problem is that sometimes we have several answers and we're not sure which is the right one.  The difference is that science does not demand an answer.  Science sets up circumstances and is shown an answer by testing and observing.  If any religion or belief in a higher power were tested under scientific circumstances, it would fail (and has done, many many times).  The answers that science gives us are as irrefutable as anything we see with our own eyes and is the only way we can see the world.

ok so i want to say real fast that i dont do anything for God, I am who i am and i try not to sin because i see its wrong. also you can NOT  use science to prove religion, its based off faith.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2011, 09:55:59 PM »
 

xela

  • Queen of Clubs
  • *
  • 2,475
    Posts
  • Reputation: 171
  • Aspire. Conceive. Create.

  • DeviantArt:

  • YouTube:
@Kanped: By our definition of god, he cannot exist. However, a "higher being" if you will is scientifically possible. In fact, the odds of a higher being capable of living outside of space-time is infinitely possible in an infinite universe, or if there are infinite universes. Likewise, depending on the true size of the universe, even if it were finite there is still a chance of such a being existing. I believe one of the fundamentals of quantum physics is that in an infinite universe, there is a possibility of anything happening at any time. There is a chance that the next time you open a door, your body spontaneously combusts and you become a dragon.

Because at this time, the science behind this is untestable, I completely side with people who choose to believe a higher being exists. However, there is no possibility that higher being is Jesus, Allah, God, or any iteration of this idea. It's simply impossible. Why people still maintain it can happen confuses me. I understand choosing to be spiritual, it makes life bearable. It's nice feeling that someone is always watching over you. However, I don't know why that someone has to be some bloke who we can literally define and create images of.
Forum Founder.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 12:09:00 AM »
 

Kanped

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 894
    Posts
  • Reputation: 29

  • Facebook:
I've been reading about alternative histories (in Stephen Hawking's last book 'The Grand Design'), which show that in the quantum universe, everything that is possible happens simultaneously and it is only through observation, i.e., our perception that one of those choices seems to have been reached.  That's a gross over-simplification but if I'm honest, even though very well written and accessible, it's a bit over my head.  It only works in the quantum (sub-atomic) world, though.  Something to do with physical fields and how objects over a certain mass cancel out its effect... I need to re-read the book.  Anyway, you can't turn into a dragon (sorry, pal :() I you think there's a chance, I'll put $[insert any figure here] against 1c for my entire lifetime.  Nobody's taking that bet.

As for a higher power, it depends what you mean.  Do I think there are more evolved, or at least more intelligent life forms in the universe than man?  Probably (I don't think we'll ever bump into each other, though).  Do I believe that the Universe was created by something of intelligence?  No.  Do I believe there is an intelligence maintaining it?  No.  Do I believe in any form of conciousness after death?  No.

It certainly is not impossible but I don't see any evidence for it and of course, the burden of proof is on the claimant.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 03:39:04 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,172
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
Anything is indeed possible.  Not terribly likely, but possible.

If one of us was visited by a being with technology far more vast in scope than our own, it is indeed possible that person could be turned into a dragon when he or she walked out the door.  Do such beings exist?  I think the odds of mankind being the only sentient life in a universe as large as ours is infinitesimally small.

Take any one of us, load us up with the best high tech we have, take us back a few thousand years or so and you, too, could be thought of as a god.  How would an early Egyptian have reacted to moving images projecting from screens we can hold in our hands?  A chariot that requires no horse, and is made of unheard-of armor?  Hell, even a simple, never-before-seen magic trick could be enough - read up on the history of Jean Eugene Robert-Houdin!  He used what we'd consider parlor tricks to defuse a situation between an African tribe on the verge of revolt and the French government.

I'm agnostic - it translates to something along the lines of "doesn't know".  I don't completely rule out the existence of a god, or several gods, or even aliens from another world being the source of all human life on this earth.  But unless I can see proof pointing in that direction, I'm not entirely inclined to believe it 100%, either.  When I was in the Army, some of my fellow recruits had a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept - they automatically assumed I was atheist and didn't believe in God.  Even after explaining it, they still considered it an alien concept, something they just couldn't figure out.  Most of them were God-fearin' children from various parts of the American Heartlands.

I'm open to all possibilities, and not willing to firmly believe in that which can't be proven.  There are few things I have faith in, and all of them are secular in nature.  And I'm even willing to alter my faith, should evidence arise to prove contrary to what I have faith in.  I have faith that five pennies equals a nickel in value.  I have faith that two plus two does indeed equal four.  I have faith that my girlfriend loves me very much, and that I love her as much as she does me.  I have faith that most standard US poker decks has fifty-two playing cards, plus two jokers, and often an ad card or two.

Faith in deities, I have trouble with.  Especially when the people organized to worship these deities commit violent and evil acts either in the name of their faith or against the teachings of their faith.  I'm with Alex on the morality thing - doing unto others as you want them to do unto you makes for a lot of societal stability and is a concept completely independent of religion.

The beliefs of Zen Buddhism are easier for me to grasp and understand - and that's largely because Zen Buddhists don't necessarily worship a deity.  They believe that Buddha was a very wise human being who achieved a state of nirvana over the course of his lifetime.  But he was still just a human being, and any human being is capable of achieving that same state of nirvana.  No gods, no higher powers, just you, existing in this very moment, not worrying over a future that may never occur, not looking back on failures and pain of the past - just existing in the present, doing what is necessary in that moment.  Which is not to say that they don't save up money for a rainy day!  But they don't worry about possible bad outcomes or even possible good outcomes of a given situation, all but one of which will never come to pass.

Many martial artists who practice aikido, such as I, come to learn about Zen while many Zen Buddhists come to learn about aikido because the two are extremely similar in nature as far as one's mental and emotional states and basic concepts.

And that's my two coppers...
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 03:41:07 AM by Good@Sabacc »
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2011, 10:33:36 AM »
 

John B.

  • Don't you have work you should be doing? We are watching you.
  • Jack of Diamonds
  • *
  • 1,916
    Posts
  • Reputation: 49

  • YouTube:
Anything is indeed possible.  Not terribly likely, but possible.

If one of us was visited by a being with technology far more vast in scope than our own, it is indeed possible that person could be turned into a dragon when he or she walked out the door.  Do such beings exist?  I think the odds of mankind being the only sentient life in a universe as large as ours is infinitesimally small.

Take any one of us, load us up with the best high tech we have, take us back a few thousand years or so and you, too, could be thought of as a god.  How would an early Egyptian have reacted to moving images projecting from screens we can hold in our hands?  A chariot that requires no horse, and is made of unheard-of armor?  Hell, even a simple, never-before-seen magic trick could be enough - read up on the history of Jean Eugene Robert-Houdin!  He used what we'd consider parlor tricks to defuse a situation between an African tribe on the verge of revolt and the French government.

I'm agnostic - it translates to something along the lines of "doesn't know".  I don't completely rule out the existence of a god, or several gods, or even aliens from another world being the source of all human life on this earth.  But unless I can see proof pointing in that direction, I'm not entirely inclined to believe it 100%, either.  When I was in the Army, some of my fellow recruits had a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept - they automatically assumed I was atheist and didn't believe in God.  Even after explaining it, they still considered it an alien concept, something they just couldn't figure out.  Most of them were God-fearin' children from various parts of the American Heartlands.

I'm open to all possibilities, and not willing to firmly believe in that which can't be proven.  There are few things I have faith in, and all of them are secular in nature.  And I'm even willing to alter my faith, should evidence arise to prove contrary to what I have faith in.  I have faith that five pennies equals a nickel in value.  I have faith that two plus two does indeed equal four.  I have faith that my girlfriend loves me very much, and that I love her as much as she does me.  I have faith that most standard US poker decks has fifty-two playing cards, plus two jokers, and often an ad card or two.

Faith in deities, I have trouble with.  Especially when the people organized to worship these deities commit violent and evil acts either in the name of their faith or against the teachings of their faith.  I'm with Alex on the morality thing - doing unto others as you want them to do unto you makes for a lot of societal stability and is a concept completely independent of religion.

The beliefs of Zen Buddhism are easier for me to grasp and understand - and that's largely because Zen Buddhists don't necessarily worship a deity.  They believe that Buddha was a very wise human being who achieved a state of nirvana over the course of his lifetime.  But he was still just a human being, and any human being is capable of achieving that same state of nirvana.  No gods, no higher powers, just you, existing in this very moment, not worrying over a future that may never occur, not looking back on failures and pain of the past - just existing in the present, doing what is necessary in that moment.  Which is not to say that they don't save up money for a rainy day!  But they don't worry about possible bad outcomes or even possible good outcomes of a given situation, all but one of which will never come to pass.

Many martial artists who practice aikido, such as I, come to learn about Zen while many Zen Buddhists come to learn about aikido because the two are extremely similar in nature as far as one's mental and emotional states and basic concepts.

And that's my two coppers...

when you mention faith you did not use it right, you dont have faith on any of those things except that your girlfriend loves you. you know 2 + 2 = 4 and such. Faith is believing something with out proof.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2011, 01:24:28 PM »
 

Kanped

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 894
    Posts
  • Reputation: 29

  • Facebook:
Also, based on your definition, I would class you an agnostic and an atheist.  Agnosticism is the conclusion that we cannot know for sure.  Atheism is the statement 'I do not believe in a god'; it is NOT 'I believe there is not a god'.  Those are very different positions.

I would also define my position as an agnostic atheist.  I'm also an anti-theist i.e. I believe religion is bad for the world.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2011, 02:32:24 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,172
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:

when you mention faith you did not use it right, you dont have faith on any of those things except that your girlfriend loves you. you know 2 + 2 = 4 and such. Faith is believing something with out proof.

Well, you could say that I have faith that the fact is correct.  At one time, many proofs existed that the earth was the center of the universe and that planets and stars revolved around it.  Also, it was proved to be flat and not infinite, so therefore it was considered to have an edge that one could fall from into some unknown abyss.  We also thought that Newtonian physics were the bee's knees and all we needed to work with.

Something "proved" true today can potentially be proved later to be untrue.

Also, based on your definition, I would class you an agnostic and an atheist.  Agnosticism is the conclusion that we cannot know for sure.  Atheism is the statement 'I do not believe in a god'; it is NOT 'I believe there is not a god'.  Those are very different positions.

I would also define my position as an agnostic atheist.  I'm also an anti-theist i.e. I believe religion is bad for the world.

But the key difference there is that I never said that I don't believe in a god OR that there is no god.  I consider the possibility that a god could exist, while an atheist believes firmly that one doesn't.  If I believe one or several could exist, but simply don't know and find myself unable to accept such possible existence by faith alone, that's the very definition of an agnostic.

You might be confusing "belief" with "faith" or "worship".  One can possibly believe that a particular god exists without necessarily being a worshiper of that god's faith.  In the Roman and Greek pantheon systems (and I think maybe the Egyptian one as well) the society generally believed that the entire pantheon did exist, but most were generally worshipers of one or maybe two different gods, attending the services of the temple devoted to that god.  This was simply logical - they went with the god or gods that most represented their own beliefs, and found it much easier to tithe to one or two temples rather than ALL of them...

An atheist does not conclusively believe in the existence or non-existence of any god or gods.  He does not take it on faith that any particular god or gods exist - he wants but lacks proof.

Religion itself is not necessarily bad for the world.  For those who do believe, many find solace and comfort from that belief and strive to be better people for it.  I can hardly call that bad.  The ones that go overboard, however - like the ones who hear God telling them to kill people for whatever cooked-up reason, or use their belief as an excuse to discriminate against non-believers - are the problem with blind acceptance.

Many of the various religious organizations have served an important purpose at various points in time.  In the Catholic Church, there's been atrocities like the Crusades, but there's also been relief missions to disaster-stricken areas and hospitals to heal the wounded.  In the Islamic faith, there's been atrocities committed against women and jihad with the Western world, but there's also an extraordinarily strong moral code that includes giving sanctuary to an enemy who requests it and never refusing a pauper's request for alms.  Good things and bad things can be said about practically all organized religions if you looked hard enough.  The good things are of great benefit to society, but the bad things they come with can be difficult to stomach.

EDIT: third paragraph should read: "An AGNOSTIC does not conclusively believe in the existence or non-existence of any god or gods.  He does not take it on faith that any particular god or gods exist - he wants but lacks proof."
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 11:55:03 AM by Good@Sabacc »
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2011, 03:27:10 AM »
 

xela

  • Queen of Clubs
  • *
  • 2,475
    Posts
  • Reputation: 171
  • Aspire. Conceive. Create.

  • DeviantArt:

  • YouTube:
Religion is bad when it influences your actions over another person. In other words, Evangelicals demanding that Evolution be taught alongside Creationism. Likewise, the fact that portraying Mohammed, the Islamic prophet, is so taboo when there really should be nothing taboo about it. If you don't believe in a religion, you should never, under any circumstances, be forced or even encouraged to follow their rules.

Anything that has ever been stated or encouraged in any religious text should never, ever, be made into law for the sole purpose of it being a religious necessity.

Religion is great, however, at soothing those who are capable of believing. It's also great at creating organization in third world societies. It has no place in the western world on a grand level at all, but there are plenty of places and plenty of people that should embrace it if they can.

However, the embrace should be on a personal level. It sickens me when I see missionaries take advantage of grief and tragedy to sway the masses affected.
Forum Founder.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 04:22:06 AM »
 

PoundFFFFFF

  • Elite Member
  • *
  • 141
    Posts
  • Reputation: 31
In sheer simplicity - not a single death in the world has ever been on the account of Atheism. Quite easy to decide which side to take.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 05:47:54 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,172
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
Religion is bad when it influences your actions over another person. In other words, Evangelicals demanding that Evolution be taught alongside Creationism. Likewise, the fact that portraying Mohammed, the Islamic prophet, is so taboo when there really should be nothing taboo about it. If you don't believe in a religion, you should never, under any circumstances, be forced or even encouraged to follow their rules.

Anything that has ever been stated or encouraged in any religious text should never, ever, be made into law for the sole purpose of it being a religious necessity.

Religion is great, however, at soothing those who are capable of believing. It's also great at creating organization in third world societies. It has no place in the western world on a grand level at all, but there are plenty of places and plenty of people that should embrace it if they can.

However, the embrace should be on a personal level. It sickens me when I see missionaries take advantage of grief and tragedy to sway the masses affected.

Actually, those Evangelicals would probably prefer Evolution not be taught at all!

There is one way I can think of religion being good when it comes to influencing your actions over another person.  Most religions teach of forgiveness, of helping the downtrodden, etc.  Granted, you don't have to be religious to do any of these things, but the faithful of those religions do so as a show of their faith.  It's a very positive way that religion influences a person's actions with regards to their fellow person.

In sheer simplicity - not a single death in the world has ever been on the account of Atheism. Quite easy to decide which side to take.

True enough.  I can't say the same about Zen - many samurai were Zen masters in addition to being accomplished warriors.  The Zen mindset helps one retain focus in the heat of battle, preventing you from getting swept up in your feelings and losing sight of things around you.  Don't worry about death in the next moment - it will happen or it will not, no need to think about that; you focus on the current moment, in the place you're currently in.  Then perhaps you'll see the approaching blade you would have been too distracted to notice while you were caught up worrying about the future.  A Zen warrior doesn't wish for death, be it for themselves or those around them, but neither do they fear it.  If in the course of events you must kill someone to prevent your imminent death or the deaths of others, so be it - if you come to the decision with calm and clarity, it will be the right one.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 06:32:57 AM »
 

Kanped

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 894
    Posts
  • Reputation: 29

  • Facebook:
It's a very positive way that religion influences a person's actions with regards to their fellow person.

I disagree.  I don't think it is ever positive to take moral decisions away from your concious.  Blindly loving someone is every bit as immoral as blindly hating someone as far as I'm concerned.  Forgiveness of the evil causes more evil.  When done as an act of faith, the person forgiving or giving is not involved on any moral level and has no decision about what they are doing.  I think that is immoral.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 12:47:29 PM »
 

PoundFFFFFF

  • Elite Member
  • *
  • 141
    Posts
  • Reputation: 31
Quote
There is one way I can think of religion being good when it comes to influencing your actions over another person.  Most religions teach of forgiveness, of helping the downtrodden, etc.  Granted, you don't have to be religious to do any of these things, but the faithful of those religions do so as a show of their faith.  It's a very positive way that religion influences a person's actions with regards to their fellow person.

  Uh... Absolutely not. If a religious person were to try and be a decent person he would have to ignore bulks of the bible (much more of the Qu'ran if Muslim), because they are simply intolerant, and in some ways malevolent. And a religious (example Christian) person will always say "oh, but weve got these ten commandments that are moral doctrines and urge us to do good and they're spoken by god himself" One has to understand that religion does not hold a monopoly over morals, over goodness. Confucius had written a far more complex book of morals and no god was ever involved. To do good because you fear god's wrath in the afterlife and to do good because you want to make the world a better place? Religion has only kept the society stable because it had forced everyone to fear, rather than love god.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2011, 03:43:54 PM »
 

Kanped

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 894
    Posts
  • Reputation: 29

  • Facebook:
The 10 commandments are not good.  Graven images?  Anyone with a crucifix has to worry about that one.  How about coveting your neighbour's ox, ass or wife (note the order)?  You're committing a mortal sin for what you THINK?!  That's just wrong.  I've heard 'honour your mother and your father' used to make kids complicit in immoral actions taken by their parents.  The original scripture seems to suggest that you should be nice to your parents so they leave you a good inheritance, by the way.  Honour the Sabbath?  Who cares.  Have no other god, do not take my name in vain? In other words, don't question me.  No society in history has accepted mindless killing and theft.  Don't be an adulterer is fair enough, if a little strange sitting next to murder and theft, especially with the omission of rape.  Don't bear false witness i.e. don't lie.  Not going to happen but alright. 

Also worthy of note is that it only lists the punishment for breaking one of these commandments, obviously the one the writer was taking the most seriously.  It's the one about worshipping other gods; the sin of apostasy is the worst, just like it is in Islam.  "[God will visit] the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me"; he will punish those that are innocent because they carry on the bloodline of someone who dared tried to leave the faith.  What, conversely, will he do with those who love him?  Show them mercy.  Mercy.  Like how a killer might take mercy of a victim.

I'm sorry but I think those commandments are, for the most part, disgusting.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2011, 03:51:04 PM »
 

PoundFFFFFF

  • Elite Member
  • *
  • 141
    Posts
  • Reputation: 31
Lol I see some Hitchens in you Kanped~
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2011, 05:44:32 PM »
 

Kanped

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 894
    Posts
  • Reputation: 29

  • Facebook:
Lol I see some Hitchens in you Kanped~

Funny, I felt he'd be preaching to the converted if I read of his stuff (Dawkins was and to be honest, it was a bit boring) but I did read 'Letter's to a Young Contrarian', his almost self-help book for those of us that find ourselves disagreeing with systems put in place for us, which is excellent.  I would like to read more of his actual journalism and his autobiography (my brother's reading that, I'll get it when he's done).


Even still, I've seen him wrecking shop in debates on several occasions and I'll be grateful to take the compliment.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 05:45:39 PM by Kanped »
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2011, 07:14:04 PM »
 

xela

  • Queen of Clubs
  • *
  • 2,475
    Posts
  • Reputation: 171
  • Aspire. Conceive. Create.

  • DeviantArt:

  • YouTube:
@Kanped: The 10 commandments may be disgusting in our eyes (or at the very least, nonsensical) but you have to realize they came about in a totally different time. Take a look at any of the law-systems around that period - they are absolutely insane. Often times murder would be legal, theft punishable by death, rape encouraged; the 10 commandments brought more civility to that region. Without a doubt, it set people in order.

However, the laws for the most part do not apply to us anymore. Do we live by Hammurabi's Code still? No. So why are the Commandments applicable?

Also, "don't say God's name in vain" is hilarious because it only applies to the original Hebrew name, not translations. "Yah'weh" is the only word you can say that is against the Commandments. "God damnit" or "Jesus Christ" are both completely okay. Even if you're Christian, Jesus is not even the real pronunciation. It's nothing remotely close to that.
Forum Founder.
 

Re: The Inevitable Religious talk/debate thread (keep it classy)
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2011, 12:23:32 AM »
 

Gunshy1

  • Discourse Deity
  • *
  • 546
    Posts
  • Reputation: 31

  • Twitter:
i didnt read anything in this thread, but personally i hope that it becomes locked. there are too many people that "think" they know a lot about religion; when in reality all they know is a very small portion of what there is to know about their personal religion.

i am sure that what has been said thus far has been considerate and classy, but things seem to always take a turn for the worse when it comes to these kinds of topics.

EDIT: and about the 10 commandments jesus covers most of them in the new testament. id suggest people read the whole bible before trying to decipher it because it is a CONFUSING book. If anyone has any pressing questions about the bible please feel free to PM me. I went to a christian school my whole elementary and highschool and college level bible courses are required from jr. high on.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 12:27:04 AM by Gunshy1 »
have you heard the word???