You are Here:
About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC

Author (Read 10595 times)

About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« on: December 23, 2016, 10:18:19 AM »
 

marcolostsomething

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • 12
    Posts
  • Reputation: 1

  • DeviantArt:

  • Facebook:
Hello everyone, i'd like to write an informative article about playing cards (mainly referring to the USPCC) and I'd love to have some informations.
The first question is about embossing: i've heard that the writings on the box (air cushion, linoid, linen, etc.) are not referring to the actual finish, no longer in use since some decades. I'd like to know if i am correct, and the USPCC applies the same embossing that simulates a pattern for all the cards.
The second question is about stock: the main difference is about retail and casino stock, but i am assuming that refers to the paper itself, for example can i use a particular paper stock if i can afford it? That would influence the cards "feel"?

If I'm asking something that is too technical let me know, maybe i hope i can drop a mail to the USPCC to get some informations about it.

The main reason that i'm asking this is because of common misconceptions regarding card "quality" while the main factor when it comes to buying a deck of cards are in my opinion aesthetics and how the performer handle the cards, and very little is left to manufacturing processes that are about standard.

Thank You for Your help,
Marco
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2016, 08:17:36 PM »
 

leangyan

  • 52 Plus Joker Member
  • Elite Member
  • *
  • 161
    Posts
  • Reputation: 6

  • Kickstarter:
Hello everyone, i'd like to write an informative article about playing cards (mainly referring to the USPCC) and I'd love to have some informations.
The first question is about embossing: i've heard that the writings on the box (air cushion, linoid, linen, etc.) are not referring to the actual finish, no longer in use since some decades. I'd like to know if i am correct, and the USPCC applies the same embossing that simulates a pattern for all the cards.
The second question is about stock: the main difference is about retail and casino stock, but i am assuming that refers to the paper itself, for example can i use a particular paper stock if i can afford it? That would influence the cards "feel"?

If I'm asking something that is too technical let me know, maybe i hope i can drop a mail to the USPCC to get some informations about it.

The main reason that i'm asking this is because of common misconceptions regarding card "quality" while the main factor when it comes to buying a deck of cards are in my opinion aesthetics and how the performer handle the cards, and very little is left to manufacturing processes that are about standard.

Thank You for Your help,
Marco

Hope the following helps you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_6bD9eRfu8

http://magicorthodoxy.weebly.com/magic-reviews/card-thickness-how-will-these-cards-feel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-qOcpwkQdg

http://unitedcardists.com/viewtopic.php?t=804

http://forums.ellusionist.com/showthread.php?89144-The-Truth-About-Card-Finishes

https://www.theory11.com/forums/threads/various-finishes-from-the-uspcc.28852/


Please do acknowledge David Kenney/Magic Orthodoxy & others above if you proceed ahead in drafting the article.


Regards,
Sunish
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2016, 11:53:02 PM »
 

Fess

  • 52 Plus Joker Member
  • Aficionado
  • *
  • 1,444
    Posts
  • Reputation: 26
  • ;)
If you are curious about facts of USPC quality. Why not go right to the source and ask USPC? They have all the information looking for. ;)
Part of my Collection updated infrequently but occasionally, when I remember. (I haven't in months.)
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2016, 05:31:08 AM »
 

marcolostsomething

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • 12
    Posts
  • Reputation: 1

  • DeviantArt:

  • Facebook:
Yes, of course i would give all the credits, expecially i'd love to thank magicorthodoxy that provided a lot of good informations.
Thank you for the links!

@Fess: do they have an email address for that kind of questions? I don't want to disturb any one at work.
Thanks!
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2016, 05:55:49 AM »
 

Fess

  • 52 Plus Joker Member
  • Aficionado
  • *
  • 1,444
    Posts
  • Reputation: 26
  • ;)
http://www.usplayingcard.com/contact-us/
http://www.bicyclecards.com/contact/

Should get be able to find someone to help you with your questions there.
Part of my Collection updated infrequently but occasionally, when I remember. (I haven't in months.)
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2017, 12:51:17 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,161
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
Hello everyone, i'd like to write an informative article about playing cards (mainly referring to the USPCC) and I'd love to have some informations.
The first question is about embossing: i've heard that the writings on the box (air cushion, linoid, linen, etc.) are not referring to the actual finish, no longer in use since some decades. I'd like to know if i am correct, and the USPCC applies the same embossing that simulates a pattern for all the cards.
The second question is about stock: the main difference is about retail and casino stock, but i am assuming that refers to the paper itself, for example can i use a particular paper stock if i can afford it? That would influence the cards "feel"?

If I'm asking something that is too technical let me know, maybe i hope i can drop a mail to the USPCC to get some informations about it.

The main reason that i'm asking this is because of common misconceptions regarding card "quality" while the main factor when it comes to buying a deck of cards are in my opinion aesthetics and how the performer handle the cards, and very little is left to manufacturing processes that are about standard.

Thank You for Your help,
Marco

I'm pretty late to the party on this one, but I'll give it a whack.

Modern-day USPC decks don't have a great deal of variety in terms of actual finishes, though they still use a lot of their old trademarked names for them.  Bear in mind you need to understand the definition of a finish - it's the TEXTURE of the card, not the COATING on the card's surface.  Basically, for finish, you have smooth and embossed - that's it.  Nothing else.

Where do all the names come from?  At one time in history, a card's finish was created by applying a coating on the card using a cloth roller brush.  The different cloths used - linen, cambric, etc. - were where some of the names were derived from.  But sometime in the 1970s or so, USPC switched to a manufacturing process where the finish was created by pressing a dimpled steel roller into the paper (embossed) or not (smooth).  "Air Cushion" finish was called such simply because the dimples in the paper (whether pressed into it with steel rollers or applied in the coating with a cloth brush) created an actual cushion of air around the card, in the same manner how the dimples in a golf ball allow it to travel further than a smooth ball of the same size and weight launched in the same direction with the same force.

Here's where things get complicated a little - USPC offers two different coatings.  One is standard.  One is called "Magic Finish."  Technically, it's NOT a finish, it's a coating.  But they use that name anyway for marketing purposes.  Magic Finish has a slightly more slippery feel to it, so cards slide against each other more easily.  It's been marketed under a variety of names, including "Performance Coating," "Performance Finish," "Premium Finish" and even "Air Cushion Finish."  But it's most commonly called "Magic Finish" and has a certain amount of name-brand recognition among card collectors.

Some collectors complain about "plastic coating."  It's kind of funny - most coatings, until around 2009-2010, were made of some kind of plastic.  So any coating could have been called "plastic coating."  Cheap card manufacturers tried using that term to make their decks seem better than uncoated cards, but because they were cheaply made with cheap paper and cheap coatings, it became more of a derogative term than a complimentary one to describe a deck.  I did mention 2009-2010, right?  That's around the time that legislation in the US kicked in forcing US playing card manufacturers (of which USPC is about 90% of the market if not more) to switch to using papers with higher post-consumer recycled content as well as inks and coatings that contained no petroleum products for improved recyclability.  USPC presently uses starch-based coatings and vegetable-based ink dyes.

As far as stock - it's variable.  As I mentioned about recycled paper, USPC is forced to use more post-consumer recycled content in their paper.  This means fewer long fibers, thus inferior paper when compared with older stocks.  To further complicate matters, they don't actually make their own paper - they buy it from paper mills.  They use the paper to create the pasteboard that becomes their card stocks, but the paper itself they have little control over in terms of just how good every little square inch of it is.  They do what they can with what they have, and by and large, they're not doing too bad.

For custom print runs, USPC offers three stocks now.  For a long time, there was only two - Bicycle Standard stock and Bee Casino stock.  They introduced something called "Thin-Crush" stock, which is supposed to be a thinly-crushed pasteboard that retains high durability.  But the paper used to make all three stocks is exactly the same - it's all in how the paper is glued together to make the stock.

Pasteboard is two layers of paper with a layer of glue in-between, to give it a degree of stiffness while still retaining some flexibility.  In addition, the glue is usually laced with an additive (in the case of USPC, graphite) to make the end-result stock more opaque - you wouldn't want your opponent at the poker table to be able to read your cards through the light of the table lamp behind you, right?  The pressure applied by the rollers and the gap between the rollers when creating this "paper sandwich" is what determines the thickness and stiffness of the pasteboard stock that results.  Bee Casino is somewhat thicker than Bicycle in general and is generally stiffer.  I haven't sampled the new Thin-Crush paper yet, but if I had to guess, I'd say that USPC was trying to develop a stock that's got the firmness of a Bee Casino with the thinness of a Bicycle Standard if not thinner.  I'll have to wait for people who own this paper to chime in for their evaluations of the stuff.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.  USPC tends to really guard a lot of the information about their papers/stocks/finishes/coatings, so you probably didn't get very far with any direct inquiries.  If you did, though, please - SHARE!  ;)
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2017, 09:46:30 AM »
 

EndersGame

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 844
    Posts
  • Reputation: 43
  • BoardGameGeek reviewer EndersGame
For custom print runs, USPC offers three stocks now.  For a long time, there was only two - Bicycle Standard stock and Bee Casino stock.  They introduced something called "Thin-Crush" stock, which is supposed to be a thinly-crushed pasteboard that retains high durability.  But the paper used to make all three stocks is exactly the same - it's all in how the paper is glued together to make the stock.

Pasteboard is two layers of paper with a layer of glue in-between, to give it a degree of stiffness while still retaining some flexibility.  In addition, the glue is usually laced with an additive (in the case of USPC, graphite) to make the end-result stock more opaque - you wouldn't want your opponent at the poker table to be able to read your cards through the light of the table lamp behind you, right?  The pressure applied by the rollers and the gap between the rollers when creating this "paper sandwich" is what determines the thickness and stiffness of the pasteboard stock that results.  Bee Casino is somewhat thicker than Bicycle in general and is generally stiffer.  I haven't sampled the new Thin-Crush paper yet, but if I had to guess, I'd say that USPC was trying to develop a stock that's got the firmness of a Bee Casino with the thinness of a Bicycle Standard if not thinner.  I'll have to wait for people who own this paper to chime in for their evaluations of the stuff.

Don, I was doing some research on different card-stocks used by USPCC, and your lengthy post above was super helpful!  Huge thanks!

I'm wondering if you've had opportunity to sample the new Thin-Crush paper stock since you wrote this in December?  If so, what did you think of it, and how does it compare with the other two stocks used in recent years (Bicycle Standard stock and Bee Casino stock)?

For what it is worth, someone at Ellusionist told me that the Thin-Crush stock is thinner and slipperier, and hence preferred by magicians, but less suitable for gamers since the cards wear more easily.

Update: People coming here wanting to learn about the different types of stock used by USPCC should check this article:

Analysing the quality/handling of a USPCC deck vs LPCC/EPCC decks: four key elements
http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=10265
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 07:03:50 AM by EndersGame »
BoardGameGeek reviewer EndersGame =>  Playing Card Reviews <=>  Magic Reviews <=> Board Game Reviews <=

 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2017, 05:28:34 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,161
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:

Don, I was doing some research on different card-stocks used by USPCC, and your lengthy post above was super helpful!  Huge thanks!

I'm wondering if you've had opportunity to sample the new Thin-Crush paper stock since you wrote this in December?  If so, what did you think of it, and how does it compare with the other two stocks used in recent years (Bicycle Standard stock and Bee Casino stock)?

For what it is worth, someone at Ellusionist told me that the Thin-Crush stock is thinner and slipperier, and hence preferred by magicians, but less suitable for gamers since the cards wear more easily.

I haven't yet had the opportunity to try it out.  I've been so busy with other things in my life that my cards have taken a bit of a sideline - I recently married for the third time and moved into a new apartment, plus I'm dealing with a few niggling medical issues.

I could imagine that cardists would also find some issue with Thin-Crush, if what you're saying is true.  They go through decks quickly enough as it is, so a deck that wears out even faster doesn't exactly sound like it would win bonus points with that community.  And for magicians, many don't even go for custom decks as much - as cool-looking as they are, they tend to cost more and the vast majority are limited editions that only have a single print run, thus making them not very economically feasible for performing.  There's some exceptions, like the long-printed designs sold by Ellusionist and Theory11, but these days most of the new decks are one-and-done, never to be made again.  I think Expert PCC is working on having a few regular designs as well, models that are reprinted and aimed at the magician market.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2018, 05:36:15 AM »
 

EndersGame

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 844
    Posts
  • Reputation: 43
  • BoardGameGeek reviewer EndersGame
Don, previously I asked you what your thoughts were about the new Thin Crush stock from USPCC, and at that time you said you hadn't really had a chance to try it yet.

We're now a year further ahead in time.  Do you have any thoughts and impressions about it now?
BoardGameGeek reviewer EndersGame =>  Playing Card Reviews <=>  Magic Reviews <=> Board Game Reviews <=

 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2018, 01:30:26 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,161
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
Don, previously I asked you what your thoughts were about the new Thin Crush stock from USPCC, and at that time you said you hadn't really had a chance to try it yet.

We're now a year further ahead in time.  Do you have any thoughts and impressions about it now?

Would you believe me if I told you that I have yet to actually test it out?  I've been so busy completing my purchase orders for Blind Wizard decks with Murphy's Magic Supplies, I haven't had a lot of time to spend looking at other playing cards!  The first PO was nearly completely sold out in under three weeks and I'm nearly done filling the second one - I fully expect there to be a third one not long thereafter.  If you don't know what I'm talking about, check out https://www.thedecktailor.com/news for more info.

I'm also itching to check out the new B9 stock from Cartamundi - been hearing a lot of good things about it.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2018, 10:10:34 PM »
 

EndersGame

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 844
    Posts
  • Reputation: 43
  • BoardGameGeek reviewer EndersGame
Thanks for the reply Don.  I hadn't realized you were working on the Blind Wizard project, so I just checked out the links at your website.  Very cool and congratulations!  Looks like a lot of work, and I'm pleased to hear that it's going well for you! 

I also enjoyed watching the promotional video.  After reading and appreciating so many of your posts here, it was terrific to put a face to your name, and to hear your voice! :)

Cartamundi's B9 Cardistry stock is very nice.  From memory, I've seen just one deck that has it so far, namely the Cobra Playing Cards from JP Games.  I was very impressed!  It's very soft, and yet handles consistently and smoothly.  See my review for more thoughts.

I look forward to hearing more from you when you do get a chance to try USPCC's Thin Crush stock!
BoardGameGeek reviewer EndersGame =>  Playing Card Reviews <=>  Magic Reviews <=> Board Game Reviews <=

 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2018, 10:13:32 PM »
 

Magic_Orthodoxy

  • Jack of Diamonds
  • *
  • 1,585
    Posts
  • Reputation: 117
  • "Simul iustus et peccator"
I just spoke with a rep from USPCC this year and they told me that ALL of their decks going forward have magic finish on them

This is what she told me...

Quote
We use an aqueous coating now, that’s likely why that smell isn’t there.  There may have been an even older ‘Magic’ coating used while the plant was in Norwood but that is before my time so I couldn’t say for sure J  Since I have been here it’s changed to all Magic coating (within the last 8 years)
More Magic and Deck Reviews https://www.youtube.com/magicorthodoxy
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2018, 03:06:30 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,161
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
I just spoke with a rep from USPCC this year and they told me that ALL of their decks going forward have magic finish on them

This is what she told me...

Quote
We use an aqueous coating now, that’s likely why that smell isn’t there.  There may have been an even older ‘Magic’ coating used while the plant was in Norwood but that is before my time so I couldn’t say for sure J  Since I have been here it’s changed to all Magic coating (within the last 8 years)

Interesting.  Magic Finish...even on mass-produced Bikes and Bees?  I know they'd been using Magic Finish as the default for all custom deck orders for a while now, but they're using it for everything now?  Because if so, that's news.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2018, 05:37:27 PM »
 

EndersGame

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 844
    Posts
  • Reputation: 43
  • BoardGameGeek reviewer EndersGame
I just spoke with a rep from USPCC this year and they told me that ALL of their decks going forward have magic finish on them

This is what she told me...

Quote
We use an aqueous coating now, that’s likely why that smell isn’t there.  There may have been an even older ‘Magic’ coating used while the plant was in Norwood but that is before my time so I couldn’t say for sure J  Since I have been here it’s changed to all Magic coating (within the last 8 years)

Thanks for sharing that David. 

If USPCC has changed their practice so that all decks have been getting the Magic coating some time "within the last eight years", as the person you spoke to says, then that would mean that all decks (including the mass produced decks that Don mentions) could already have been using Magic coating for five years or more already, right? In other words, not just all decks "going forward", but possibly this has been the state of affairs for several years already? 

Or am I misunderstanding this?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 05:37:56 PM by EndersGame »
BoardGameGeek reviewer EndersGame =>  Playing Card Reviews <=>  Magic Reviews <=> Board Game Reviews <=

 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2018, 06:42:44 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,161
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
I just spoke with a rep from USPCC this year and they told me that ALL of their decks going forward have magic finish on them

This is what she told me...

Quote
We use an aqueous coating now, that’s likely why that smell isn’t there.  There may have been an even older ‘Magic’ coating used while the plant was in Norwood but that is before my time so I couldn’t say for sure J  Since I have been here it’s changed to all Magic coating (within the last 8 years)

Thanks for sharing that David. 

If USPCC has changed their practice so that all decks have been getting the Magic coating some time "within the last eight years", as the person you spoke to says, then that would mean that all decks (including the mass produced decks that Don mentions) could already have been using Magic coating for five years or more already, right? In other words, not just all decks "going forward", but possibly this has been the state of affairs for several years already? 

Or am I misunderstanding this?

I strongly suspect that the USPC rep might be wrong on this, or at least is leaving something out.  Magic Finish has a distinctive handling and even a unique smell fresh out of the box.  I recently went through nearly three hundred decks of recent-manufacture Bicycle Standard and Tally Ho Circle Back decks (mostly made in the last quarter of 2017) while converting them into gaffed decks and saw no evidence of this.  Now, she says that the new coating is now 'aqueous,' explaining the lack of smell, but in that case, is it really still the same Magic Finish or something else under the same name?  I know that the handling wasn't as slick as the old Magic Finish decks I've opened in the past - they were so slick, I could hardly hold them without using a firm grip, lest they would slip out of my hands.  The glide on these new decks I went through was merely adequate, typical of their earlier Erlanger-made mass-production stock.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2018, 09:29:19 AM »
 

mcmc

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • 7
    Posts
  • Reputation: 0
Don, thanks for your post above, I know it was over a year ago but it was helpful to read!

Do you remember the Conjuring Arts decks? Their smooth one they called "Ivory Finish." Guessing that was just marketing for the same smooth finish that would have been on the old Aviators, etc. huh.

Didn't realize that about the forcible use of set %-age of post-consumer content. Do you know when this came about? I guess it lends another factor to why blue seals / Ohio-made may be better.
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2018, 06:31:32 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,161
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
Don, thanks for your post above, I know it was over a year ago but it was helpful to read!

Do you remember the Conjuring Arts decks? Their smooth one they called "Ivory Finish." Guessing that was just marketing for the same smooth finish that would have been on the old Aviators, etc. huh.

Didn't realize that about the forcible use of set %-age of post-consumer content. Do you know when this came about? I guess it lends another factor to why blue seals / Ohio-made may be better.

Yes, "Ivory Finish" was a marketing term, a trademark of USPC that's used for many of their smooth-finish decks, just like "Air Cushion Finish," "Cambric Finish," "Linoid Finish," etc. are all just embossed-finish decks, made in the same process.  The only differences now are how much pressure they use to crush the stock - there's thin-crush (thin, wears faster, but has nice handling properties), "standard" (Bicycle) and "casino/premium" (Bee).  They no longer permit the use of casino stock for Bicycle-branded decks.

The post-consumer paper issue was talked about over at Ellusionist's blog around the time that USPC moved to Erlanger.  You might remember that from late 2009 to about late 2010 or early 2011 there were many complaints about clumpy decks with finishes that became sticky and hard to fan almost immediately out of the box.  This may have been a result of the transition from "good" paper to more heavily recycled paper and from oil-based inks/varnishes to vegetable-dye inks and starch-based coatings - and it was also what in part prompted the development of Magic Finish.  They've managed to solve the issue at this point.

As far as Ohio decks being "better," well - if you're talking about the standard, mass-produced stuff, the story I heard was that the sheet-fed press was pretty rickety in the last days of Cincinnati, but the new plant has a new set of presses for both web-press and sheet-fed press work.  There's just so many factors to account for, it's really impossible to make a sweeping statement about all quality, other than this, perhaps: the general consensus is that the newer mass-produced decks are not as good in quality because of a perceived lowering of the quality control - the biggest issues I've found are badly off-centered cuts and poor registration between faces and backs.  There's more control over this in the low-production, sheet-fed press work, but it's still not perfect - but these days, what is?  It costs money to achieve perfection, money that most people aren't willing to throw into the production of playing cards because of what it does to the end-result cost to consumers.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2018, 10:40:02 AM »
 

mcmc

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • 7
    Posts
  • Reputation: 0
Thanks Don!

Great information as always.

As far as poor registration/centering goes, THAT'S something I encountered in decks going all the way back to the 80's for sure. Think no run of cards was immune as far as I've used them.

Interesting re: the post-consumer content, and ink changes. Makes sense then why they pushed the Magic finish. Thanks for that tidbit of info.

Wait: they don't allow Casino stock for Bicycle cards anymore? Is this due to a marketing decision? What about Richard Turner's Gold Seals? They were supposed to be Bee Casino stock in Bicycle yeah?
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2018, 05:46:42 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,161
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:

Wait: they don't allow Casino stock for Bicycle cards anymore? Is this due to a marketing decision? What about Richard Turner's Gold Seals? They were supposed to be Bee Casino stock in Bicycle yeah?

Turner's Gold Seal decks aren't new.  This was info I got when I contacted them about producing a new Bicycle deck.  They specifically stated that the standard stock was the only thing I could get for a Bicycle-branded deck.  There's a lot of older decks that used casino grade stock - in fact, long ago, Bicycle had its own separate casino grade stock from Bee!  But for new printings, that's the current word from on high - no casino-grade Bicycles.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2018, 08:56:43 AM »
 

mcmc

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • 7
    Posts
  • Reputation: 0
Yeah, I'm aware that Turner's Gold Decks aren't new. I have a stock of them from when they were first released. But, I have been out of the game for several years - does he still produce them? And if so, are the newer ones no longer on Casino stock? That I don't know, and I couldn't find info elsewhere on this either.

Out of curiosity, what kind of Bicycle deck were you thinking of havine made?

I guess they decided to lock down the Bicycle branding even down to the stock huh.

I wasn't aware that Bicycle had its own casino grade stock. What decks were made with this separate casino stock, do you happen to know?
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2018, 01:06:32 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,161
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
Yeah, I'm aware that Turner's Gold Decks aren't new. I have a stock of them from when they were first released. But, I have been out of the game for several years - does he still produce them? And if so, are the newer ones no longer on Casino stock? That I don't know, and I couldn't find info elsewhere on this either.

Out of curiosity, what kind of Bicycle deck were you thinking of havine made?

I guess they decided to lock down the Bicycle branding even down to the stock huh.

I wasn't aware that Bicycle had its own casino grade stock. What decks were made with this separate casino stock, do you happen to know?

To my knowledge, and that's admittedly imperfect, Turner isn't producing new Gold Seal decks.  He just made a WHOLE LOT of them back then.  It's part of why they're still so cheap today.

I can't reveal the details of the deck I'm working on - suffice it to say it will be a "worker's deck."

I don't know how long ago USPC discontinued Bicycle Casino stock - perhaps a decade, perhaps more.  It predates the modern custom deck craze, for the most part, as far as I know.  I think (and again, memory isn't perfect on this) that Ellusionist might have been using it briefly after the UV500 was no longer available.  I have no idea what they're using today, though for their Bicycle branded decks, it's almost certainly "standard" stock, not casino grade, and probably not the new thin-crush stock.  Tally Ho used to have their own stock as well - that's long gone now.  Many different stocks and finishes were once available - now, the choices are way more limited.

And yes, they're locking down the Bicycle brand, but they always have been to some degree or another.  There was a report a few years back that they made it policy that any Bicycle branded deck had to be listed as having "Air Cushion Finish" on it, but I think they've recanted on that.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2018, 01:17:22 AM »
 

mcmc

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • 7
    Posts
  • Reputation: 0
Thanks Don. Yeah, I couldn't find any info online about whether the Turner decks being sold now are Erlanger or Ohio. If they were Erlanger, it would give us a clue that they were another batch.

Interesting, first I've heard that Tallys had their own stock. Was this in the Ohio-made era? Or before that time (ie. pre- move to Erlanger?).
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2018, 02:42:17 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,161
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
Thanks Don. Yeah, I couldn't find any info online about whether the Turner decks being sold now are Erlanger or Ohio. If they were Erlanger, it would give us a clue that they were another batch.

Interesting, first I've heard that Tallys had their own stock. Was this in the Ohio-made era? Or before that time (ie. pre- move to Erlanger?).

It was likely around the time of the move, if not before.  It's been years since Tally Ho stock was offered.  Some companies have claimed to use it since then, but the veracity of the claims is questionable.  Aristocrat also had their own stock, but no longer.
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/
 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2020, 03:00:25 AM »
 

EndersGame

  • Frequent Flyer
  • *
  • 844
    Posts
  • Reputation: 43
  • BoardGameGeek reviewer EndersGame
Just to update this thread (and some related info I originally posted elsewhere), it seems that USPCC has changed some of the terminology.

As I understand it, the short version is that USPCC currently gives two main options for card-stock:
- Premium stock (formerly: Bee stock)
- Retail stock (formerly: Bicycle stock)

They then offer a further option, namely to get the chosen stock "thin-crushed", which makes the cards slightly thinner and much softer.  This is the option that tends to be preferred by cardists.

I'm sure Don Boyer or someone else will correct me if I've got anything inaccurate here.
BoardGameGeek reviewer EndersGame =>  Playing Card Reviews <=>  Magic Reviews <=> Board Game Reviews <=

 

Re: About Stock and Embossing of the USPCC
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2020, 06:46:49 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • VP/Dir. Club Forum/DAC Chair, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 19,161
    Posts
  • Reputation: 415
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
Just to update this thread (and some related info I originally posted elsewhere), it seems that USPCC has changed some of the terminology.

As I understand it, the short version is that USPCC currently gives two main options for card-stock:
- Premium stock (formerly: Bee stock)
- Retail stock (formerly: Bicycle stock)

They then offer a further option, namely to get the chosen stock "thin-crushed", which makes the cards slightly thinner and much softer.  This is the option that tends to be preferred by cardists.

I'm sure Don Boyer or someone else will correct me if I've got anything inaccurate here.

You're probably right.  Same stocks as before, new way of naming them.  Whether it's Bee/Bicycle or Casino/Standard or Premium/Retail, same old song and dance...  ;)
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
Pre-Made Decks for Sale - http://donboyermagic.com/