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The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)

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The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« on: July 06, 2015, 08:57:58 PM »
 

NgNash

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Hi guys,

I'm Nash, creator of POTO Deck of Playing Cards.
Its my pleasure to present to you this deck and I'm inviting you to check out our campaign. Limited edition, with golden foil edges (gilded), two boxes (tuck box with emboss and luxurious black box with golden logo print on the lid), certificates with serial numbers etc.
Note that campaign is in Australian dollars (1$AUD=0,77$USD) that's often confusing moment, but what we can do -_-  .. anyway :D  enjoy the artwork and the trailer:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iluzijastudio/the-phantom-of-the-opera-playing-cards-deck






The card edges are gold foiled, and the tuck box has embossed detail!



This deck of cards features all of the main characters from Gaston Leroux's epic tale, including Leroux himself! All characters are hand-drawn with original design and concept.







These are the specifications we got from the printer we inquired about the cards printing:
black core paper 310 gsm , linen finish, casino quality
glossy finish
embossed tuck box
hard box with gold hot stamping
24k gold foil for the card edges
certificate with gold foil printing.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 03:13:02 PM by NgNash »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2015, 09:38:45 PM »
 

chas0039

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Very impressive efforts!  I am sorry you are out of my price range, but good luck.  Looks like you will sell out soon.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2015, 09:54:06 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I'm agreed on that price - you should have made a non-gilded version for general release; you could have made a lot more money on them.  You don't even state who the manufacturer is, as far as I can tell - but I did look quickly so I might have missed it.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2015, 10:37:46 PM »
 

chas0039

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He said in the Comments section of the KS page that "We have offers from a couple of printing companies, since its a very specific project and it's a small run we will be very careful about the final decision. We are a studio with professional and skilled graphic designers with experience regarding printing process, so we will insure the best final result."

At least one backer is not happy that the printer hasn't been decided before the campaign was announced.

I agree; the printer is the first thing I look for after the price.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2015, 11:09:14 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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He said in the Comments section of the KS page that "We have offers from a couple of printing companies, since its a very specific project and it's a small run we will be very careful about the final decision. We are a studio with professional and skilled graphic designers with experience regarding printing process, so we will insure the best final result."

At least one backer is not happy that the printer hasn't been decided before the campaign was announced.

I agree; the printer is the first thing I look for after the price.

This raises big red flags, as I see it - how can they possibly price the job if they don't have the printer lined up?  They set their goal in the blind, guessing what the printing would cost them without an actual price quote to work from.  Do they know what the gilding will cost?  They say the gilding will be done with foil - not all printers use foil; some use gold paint, and some (such as USPC) have a minimum print run size of 10,000 for gilded decks because of the added cost.  Will the printer do the gilding, or do they have a third party lined up for it - and if so, what about resealing the decks?

There's a reason Uusi charges what they charge for hand-gilded decks using metal foil - the process is painstakingly precise and your attention can't waver for a moment.  The foil used is so light, it floats in the air while they're working on it.  Lose focus and make one tiny mistake and that entire deck is ruined and you start from scratch with a new one.  I don't see how it's possible that these guys can price out the project without taking all these things into account - and they can't take printing into account if they haven't got a printer already.

Even if they were $5 a pack, I wouldn't touch this project.  Too many questions, not enough good answers.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2015, 11:25:04 PM »
 

Rob Wright

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NgNash. How come such a short campaign. Only 12 days is not a lot of time to build backers.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2015, 01:07:46 AM »
 

NgNash

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NgNash. How come such a short campaign. Only 12 days is not a lot of time to build backers.

Hi Rob,
We build are backers in advance. Its helpful to have two Phantom campaign before this since we are making the first animated feature + thru to the book.... but guess card collectors aren't that interested in poto stuff :)
I think 13 days campaign is enough, since campaign will either work or not. Our previous campaigns showed that it just an agony to have long ones, so thus decision.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2015, 01:27:54 AM »
 

NgNash

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There's a reason Uusi charges what they charge for hand-gilded decks using metal foil - the process is painstakingly precise and your attention can't waver for a moment.  The foil used is so light, it floats in the air while they're working on it.  Lose focus and make one tiny mistake and that entire deck is ruined and you start from scratch with a new one.  I don't see how it's possible that these guys can price out the project without taking all these things into account - and they can't take printing into account if they haven't got a printer already.


Don, you are 100% right there. Having gilded decks is not a joke. But we didn't start campaign without examples and tests.
The reason why it's not known company:  we are not  from US! Having USPCC is not an option. Import/tax costs are far to great. Importing this big number of decks pulls a question of gambling services, which asks for additional licenses etc. Bottom line? Not worth doing that.
Our deck is created for some time now, and we were exploring a LOT options before we finally started. We worked a numerous projects that included golden/silver foil and similar products (for pricy weddings, special occasions etc.). As you said, that is touchy moment, and I'm much more conformable printing somewhere where we can control. Of course we can't make 10,000 decks and that would be suicide. So that's why we are creating smaller batch that will be overlooked and handled. It's much more logical and doable. Thus a bit higher price, but not that high having in mind what this deck will have and presents.
And who we are - anyone could find out if tried to watch short trailer or read below it. We are Serbian-Australian co-production, Iluzija Animation Studio (thus Europa/Australia moment). Besides animation, we have huge design and printing department where we handle bunch of projects. As mentioned, we are working on POTO Animated feature and making this Deck looking good is a must for future needs, plans and goals.

Hope this clears questions for bit.
I'm here if you guys have more questions :)

Nash
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 01:46:11 AM by NgNash »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2015, 03:41:20 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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There's a reason Uusi charges what they charge for hand-gilded decks using metal foil - the process is painstakingly precise and your attention can't waver for a moment.  The foil used is so light, it floats in the air while they're working on it.  Lose focus and make one tiny mistake and that entire deck is ruined and you start from scratch with a new one.  I don't see how it's possible that these guys can price out the project without taking all these things into account - and they can't take printing into account if they haven't got a printer already.


Don, you are 100% right there. Having gilded decks is not a joke. But we didn't start campaign without examples and tests.
The reason why it's not known company:  we are not  from US! Having USPCC is not an option. Import/tax costs are far to great. Importing this big number of decks pulls a question of gambling services, which asks for additional licenses etc. Bottom line? Not worth doing that.
Our deck is created for some time now, and we were exploring a LOT options before we finally started. We worked a numerous projects that included golden/silver foil and similar products (for pricy weddings, special occasions etc.). As you said, that is touchy moment, and I'm much more conformable printing somewhere where we can control. Of course we can't make 10,000 decks and that would be suicide. So that's why we are creating smaller batch that will be overlooked and handled. It's much more logical and doable. Thus a bit higher price, but not that high having in mind what this deck will have and presents.
And who we are - anyone could find out if tried to watch short trailer or read below it. We are Serbian-Australian co-production, Iluzija Animation Studio (thus Europa/Australia moment). Besides animation, we have huge design and printing department where we handle bunch of projects. As mentioned, we are working on POTO Animated feature and making this Deck looking good is a must for future needs, plans and goals.

Hope this clears questions for bit.
I'm here if you guys have more questions :)

Nash

Nash, let's make this very simple.

What company is printing the deck?

For card collectors, the company that makes the deck actually matters.  Some companies are known for excellent quality, some are known for mediocre, passable decks, some are known for making utter garbage - and some aren't known at all.  But one way or another, it matters - especially when you're asking the kind of dollar amount you're asking for these decks.  Would you pay luxury-car or sports-car prices for a sub-compact economy car with vinyl seats and an AM radio?  I know I wouldn't, and I wouldn't pay those prices you're asking without knowing something about who made the deck.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2015, 09:10:33 AM »
 

NgNash

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So here is what we got as answer from MPC as example:

"Please note that the minimum order quantity of 310g air linen is 1000 decks.
Meanwhile, please note that currently we do not offer gilded card edges and foil stamping on cards."

Even I know that they had very recently a campaign with foiled card backs! so, what - they are keeping this technique for themselves?! Not only this, we are getting all different restrictions for what we want from these companies while we know what we want. So I choose to do this locally so I can CONTROL the process.

Anyway, here is the first Add-on guys + some Gifts : ) we've pass 5/13K (for 14 hours)

Booklet presents the history behind POTO project, and how all lead toward POTO Deck. There are rough Artworks used for creating the Deck + much more.

 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2015, 09:42:33 AM »
 

chas0039

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Curiouser and curiouser.

Didn't think they were Aussie.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2015, 12:49:06 PM »
 

PrincessTrouble

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Are these bridge size cards?
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2015, 01:56:29 PM »
 

NgNash

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Are these bridge size cards?

No I'm afraid - they are Poker size cards ^^
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 01:56:44 PM by NgNash »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2015, 02:18:41 PM »
 

chas0039

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Are these bridge size cards?


No I'm afraid - they are Poker size cards ^^
That is not a problem.  We want poker sized.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2015, 08:07:53 PM »
 

NgNash

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cool chas :)

Btw. folks - 48% funded with 90 backers in 26 hours. Thanks to all who supported us from here :)
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2015, 09:44:22 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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So here is what we got as answer from MPC as example:

"Please note that the minimum order quantity of 310g air linen is 1000 decks.
Meanwhile, please note that currently we do not offer gilded card edges and foil stamping on cards."

Even I know that they had very recently a campaign with foiled card backs! so, what - they are keeping this technique for themselves?! Not only this, we are getting all different restrictions for what we want from these companies while we know what we want. So I choose to do this locally so I can CONTROL the process.

Anyway, here is the first Add-on guys + some Gifts : ) we've pass 5/13K (for 14 hours)

Booklet presents the history behind POTO project, and how all lead toward POTO Deck. There are rough Artworks used for creating the Deck + much more.



Foil on card backs and foil on card edges (a.k.a. gilding) are two entirely different things.  If you knew playing cards and printing, you know this.

So - it's clear that MPC isn't your printer.  So who is?  It was a simple question, deserving of a simple answer, but remains unanswered.  You're promising more and more to people yet I have serious doubts about whether you're able to deliver AND to do so within the budget you've set.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 09:45:13 PM by Don Boyer »
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2015, 11:36:01 AM »
 

chas0039

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So.......still no printer??

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iluzijastudio/the-phantom-of-the-opera-playing-cards-deck/posts/1286485

Based on this very confusing update, it looks as though he plans to print and gild it himself!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 11:46:47 AM by chas0039 »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2015, 12:26:59 PM »
 

Justin O.

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Hi guys,

I'm Nash, creator of POTO Deck of Playing Cards.

Hey Nash, I like the subject you have chosen to make a deck of cards, and am a big fan a gilding and foil stamping.

Who are you using to print?
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

The people who handle playing cards are always in a world of delicate fingertip technology.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2015, 12:33:44 PM »
 

NgNash

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So.......still no printer??

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/iluzijastudio/the-phantom-of-the-opera-playing-cards-deck/posts/1286485

Based on this very confusing update, it looks as though he plans to print and gild it himself!

haha :)

Printer is local. We can't work with USPCC and Legend/MPC doesn't offer what we need, so after a lot of thought we decided for local printer office with whom we worked for few years and whom we can control.
Our studio has design department which mostly works for luxury weddings in Luxembourg, New Zealand, Australia. Thus great experience with golden edges, foils etc. Working locally we can get exact result as we want while searching for known companies who have restrictions... I didn't like that. Others ask for abnormal quantities...

I know that this isn't something that card collectors are used to, but that's our best option in this moment. Getting good print and deck is very important for our project!

Guys, working with cards is not our main activity. That doesn't mean that we wont provide good cards. This is small project, not several thousand-copies deck. I am not wishing for garbage and to destroy everything that our company worked for.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2015, 01:08:57 PM »
 

chas0039

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Has your "local printer" printed cards before?  Have they done gilding on a deck before?  Have they a name and maybe a website so we can see their work?
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2015, 01:31:49 PM »
 

Justin O.

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Printer is local. We can't work with USPCC and Legend/MPC doesn't offer what we need, so after a lot of thought we decided for local printer office with whom we worked for few years and whom we can control.
Our studio has design department which mostly works for luxury weddings in Luxembourg, New Zealand, Australia. Thus great experience with golden edges, foils etc. Working locally we can get exact result as we want while searching for known companies who have restrictions... I didn't like that. Others ask for abnormal quantities...
I know that this isn't something that card collectors are used to, but that's our best option in this moment. Getting good print and deck is very important for our project!
Guys, working with cards is not our main activity. That doesn't mean that we wont provide good cards. This is small project, not several thousand-copies deck. I am not wishing for garbage and to destroy everything that our company worked for.


Playing cards require different materials than wedding invitations and stationary. I'm wondering if a deck of playing cards is the right way to go as a promotional part of your project. it seems like with the materials and printers you have access to something like illustrated prints, or posters, something of that ilk might be better suited to your vision.

As it stands now you are going to be printing a sup-par deck of playing cards using a printer that isn't familiar with making decks of cards and will be using materials that aren't suited to be playing cards. You will be making a novelty deck that won't live up to expectations for a quality deck of playing cards.

You are promising your backers the highest in playing card quality, but you aren't going to be living up to that, you are going to be delivering the highest quality in wedding reception placards with suits and pips. Have you thought about distributing through any number of distribution companies in the US to be able to use a reputable printer and not need to worry about import restrictions on build playing card orders? Maybe Expert Playing Card Company? Have you looked into their options?
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2015, 02:04:06 PM »
 

NgNash

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Has your "local printer" printed cards before?  Have they done gilding on a deck before?  Have they a name and maybe a website so we can see their work?

Most probably printer is Temilov.rs whom we worked a lot. They are on market for 28 years (offering all kinds of techniques and possibilities). Cards aren't their main activity but they offer all that we need for this deck + I know them! meaning that they will do good job! Cards are not their usual bid, but printing cards, dealing with foils is something that they do.
Dealing for weddings is more tricky if you ask me. Try imagining the bride who doesn't get perfect for her wedding that she paid a lot!
Temilov are not the only ones that we consider (Å print, data-copy etc.) + we are considering some foreign too.
Again! we're studio for animated film, not cardist company. This project is one-time, mainly in purpose of animated feature that we are producing. This is unique deck, rare, not commercial one and yes, we will make it right!
If something changes in the meantime, you will know (getting to some bigger printer or something similar). My main priority is getting a good deck - I don't care who is the printer.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 02:05:59 PM by NgNash »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2015, 02:39:14 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Most probably printer is Temilov.rs whom we worked a lot. They are on market for 28 years (offering all kinds of techniques and possibilities). Cards aren't their main activity but they offer all that we need for this deck + I know them! meaning that they will do good job! Cards are not their usual bid, but printing cards, dealing with foils is something that they do.
Dealing for weddings is more tricky if you ask me. Try imagining the bride who doesn't get perfect for her wedding that she paid a lot!
Temilov are not the only ones that we consider (Šprint, data-copy etc.) + we are considering some foreign too.
Again! we're studio for animated film, not cardist company. This project is one-time, mainly in purpose of animated feature that we are producing. This is unique deck, rare, not commercial one and yes, we will make it right!
If something changes in the meantime, you will know (getting to some bigger printer or something similar). My main priority is getting a good deck - I don't care who is the printer.

Those two statements I highlighted in bold, red letters are in complete and total opposition with each other.  You want to make a good deck - but you don't care who makes it?  So you're planning to hire a company that doesn't even make playing cards - and expect them to make a good deck?

Look, you might be head of the best animation studio in the world - hell, you might have the Nobel Peace Prize - but it's clear that you really don't have a clue about making a good deck of playing cards at all.  If you did, you damn well WOULD CARE about who's making it!  I don't care if you plan to make a few hundred or a few hundred million decks - you should care about the printer and you should choose a printer that makes playing cards, for the same reasons why you don't see your mechanic for an earache and you don't go to your florist to fix a broken air conditioner.

Good luck with your project - it's plain and clear to me that you're going to need every last drop of it and then some.  I would offer my services as a consultant, but you may be beyond my help, based on the statements you've made thus far.  Me, personally, I do not plan to back it, and I don't recommend others do so either, unless of course they're fond of disappointment.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 02:40:55 PM by Don Boyer »
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2015, 03:27:15 PM »
 

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Ok, Don - yeah, I wanted to write "the name of the printer" of course I care about the printer. If we could do something with more popular/known company - we would, you don't need to doubt that.
Anyway, thank you for your opinion and advices. Noted. We will try better next time.

I still care about this deck and I'll fight for it :)
So far 102 backers with over $7000... thank you guys. I'll not disappoint you.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 03:30:40 PM by NgNash »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2015, 05:03:31 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Ok, Don - yeah, I wanted to write "the name of the printer" of course I care about the printer. If we could do something with more popular/known company - we would, you don't need to doubt that.
Anyway, thank you for your opinion and advices. Noted. We will try better next time.

I still care about this deck and I'll fight for it :)
So far 102 backers with over $7000... thank you guys. I'll not disappoint you.

Actually, you could do something with a more popular, known company - one that's actually known for making playing cards!  Maybe it wouldn't be gilded in the way you state this deck will, but then again, it's hard to say if anything about this deck will be made the way you state it will be, because you haven't actually chosen a printer and the one you think you're going to use doesn't even make playing cards.  The way you're going about this, it's like choosing to have your wisdom teeth pulled out through your ear.  You're doing this in a way that insanely more difficult than it has to be and far more likely to end in failure.  You may hit you goal, you may double or triple it, but to produce a deck of cards that's worth what your reward tiers charge for it is next-to-impossible, the way that you're going about it.  And all that extra stuff - the calendars, the books, the movie script, etc. - only pulls focus away from the project's main goal of making the deck, or is the main goal promoting the movie?  Based on the way you're running it, it's hard to really know for certain.

Why on Earth would you not choose an affordable, reliable playing card manufacturer, instead preferring a printing company based in Serbia (not exactly known as the playing card capital of the world) whose website is dominated by business card designs?  Sure, they're stylish business cards - but they're BUSINESS cards, not PLAYING cards!  To expect people to pay a very premium price for a deck of cards from a company that doesn't make playing cards, though they are a print company, is like paying a premium price for a sports car from a moped company, because while they've never made a sports car before, they do make things with motors and wheels...  Based on your backing thus far, there appears to be plenty of people willing to roll the dice and take their chances - one of the good and bad things about Kickstarter, really - but I won't be one of them and I doubt I'm alone in that opinion.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 05:07:29 PM by Don Boyer »
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2015, 05:29:20 PM »
 

NgNash

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Yes Don, I know that you aren't supporting this deck. And as said that's ok. I'm just saying that I did what I could - and they are not some lame printer that do just business cards. You don't know them and that's ok to have doubts but don't talk like that about someone that you dont know and their work. I respect them better then some foreign companies. They do lots of stuff, including decks. But yeah we aren't the capitol for decks like US/China

We made the project, we made the deck and decided to publish it despite everything. And I've chosen(or will choose) best option for it. Like it, don't - support it or don't all that's ok. I'm bit tired of this conversation.
Guys - we are making 700 decks, known companies wont take this number + they are limiting us with what we can get. We are still beginners, we dont have big base of backers to support big campaigns with 500 backers for decks of $10. We're not from US. Shipment and taxes are killing us. This deck is mostly for fans of POTO franchise, its different, rare it will be handled carefully and supervised so that I get what I want! I founded both school for animation and the studio, and I didn't do that by not getting what I want.
This deck is important to me. I hope that matters.

Best ;)

 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 05:30:56 PM by NgNash »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2015, 06:05:18 PM »
 

chas0039

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This is getting a bit heavy, even from the sidelines.  I can see Nash is targeting a different audience from a lot of usual collectors and the unfortunate side effect would seem to be most of the consequences pointed out by Don.

It is a shame you didn't just go for the 1000 deck minimum and get a company with experience to print this.  So much of this conjecture about the quality would just not ever have come up.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2015, 06:16:38 PM »
 

Brian M

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Coming up with a successful playing card project for Kickstarter and delivering a deck that will satisfy the Kickstarter backers is really not that hard.  Success isn't guaranteed, but over the last couple of years, it has been done literally dozens, if not hundreds, of times.  You don't have to be in the U.S.  You don't have to have much artistic talent.  High-school and college kids succeed at it regularly.  A deck of playing cards is not a moon rocket. There is a formula for these projects and it only requires a little bit of paying attention to figure out what that formula is.    Listening to what experienced people in this forum are tryiing to tell you would  be a good start.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2015, 07:00:54 PM »
 

NgNash

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I agree actually. When we started informing etc. making even 500 decks sounded too much! (mistake? probably.) Getting 1000 - I think that someone here would kill me :D
So, we found ourselves wanting 700 decks (then turned to 666 but that's another story). Anyway, our general trouble is - we are from Europe, but we are not from European Union. Customs is really harsh :/   Another problem was with Australia - triple cost for shipment etc. etc.

Anyway, we are here now. I learned a lot from you guys, so who knows - maybe next time I will ask for help someone here (shipment, printing advices etc.) should I done that before? Probably :) But as chas said - we had in mind phans (phantom fans) and if some collectors join - cool.
But, I must say again - this doesn't mean we wont make good deck. Supported or not - I'll post pictures here once they're done. I'll give my best.

O, someone said (I think not here) that he actually dont like that deck is linked to animated feature. I'm curious what you think about that. Isn't good thing for deck to have some story behind? We're actually offering the Art of as booklet, which is version of the Art of POTO from our previous campaign. Phans were asking for that, so why not...
Anyway, what's your thoughts about that? Did anyone here watched the trailer for film?

Thanks.

P.S. if admins think this isn't a thread for this question - its ok, I'll stop it.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 07:01:35 PM by NgNash »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2015, 11:33:06 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I agree actually. When we started informing etc. making even 500 decks sounded too much! (mistake? probably.) Getting 1000 - I think that someone here would kill me :D
So, we found ourselves wanting 700 decks (then turned to 666 but that's another story). Anyway, our general trouble is - we are from Europe, but we are not from European Union. Customs is really harsh :/   Another problem was with Australia - triple cost for shipment etc. etc.

Anyway, we are here now. I learned a lot from you guys, so who knows - maybe next time I will ask for help someone here (shipment, printing advices etc.) should I done that before? Probably :) But as chas said - we had in mind phans (phantom fans) and if some collectors join - cool.
But, I must say again - this doesn't mean we wont make good deck. Supported or not - I'll post pictures here once they're done. I'll give my best.

O, someone said (I think not here) that he actually dont like that deck is linked to animated feature. I'm curious what you think about that. Isn't good thing for deck to have some story behind? We're actually offering the Art of as booklet, which is version of the Art of POTO from our previous campaign. Phans were asking for that, so why not...
Anyway, what's your thoughts about that? Did anyone here watched the trailer for film?

Thanks.

P.S. if admins think this isn't a thread for this question - its ok, I'll stop it.

Actually, your questions are the right ones for this thread.

Honestly, your project isn't a project for a pack of playing cards, despite the statements you've made.  If you stop and think about this and look at the items you're offering on the reward tiers, it's really a project to raise awareness of your movie by selling merchandise related to the movie, among which there so happens to be a deck of playing cards.

You've mentioned the harshness of Customs and shipping and so forth - these are not insurmountable problems.  It's been pointed out to you here that there have been dozens if not hundreds of successful projects done for less money that made excellent, professional-grade playing cards.  I think you're being extremely over-ambitious by making a gilded deck and using a company not known for its expertise at making playing cards.  If you took your project to, for example, Expert Playing Card Company or Legends Playing Card Company, they could make you cards that are casino-grade.  Legends offers order fulfillment services, and Expert, last time I checked, was experimenting with using fulfillment services straight from the factory.  For a LOT less money than what you're asking for to make this project, you could have made a great deck of cards AND by using a fulfillment company outside of Serbia you could have completely dodged the issue of your country's high Customs and mailing costs because most of the decks would never have ended up crossing the border into Serbia in the first place - just those that you wanted to distribute domestically.

All you really needed to do to solve these issues would have been to come here first, before launching your project, and asking a few intelligent questions.  In fact, even that is "overkill" - just reading about other projects with similar circumstances would have been enough, but by asking for yourself, you'd be getting information that's practically custom-tailored to your needs.

When people see a project that:
- doesn't have a vendor to make the final product picked BEFORE launch,
- doesn't use a vendor that specializes in making that product, and
- provides vague and unusual answers to simple inquiries about the product,

...it raises a lot of red flags.  Far better projects have failed for less.  Seriously, how could you even set your goal without knowing what the printing of the deck would cost?  Making the deck as expensive as it is when you don't even have a clear, well-defined budget (which you can't yet have because you haven't even selected and finalized a deal with the printer BEFORE launch, like nearly every single other playing card project ever launched on Kickstarter) just seems like the work of an amateur, not a professional; like you're trying to solve the problem of getting the decks made by throwing money at it - the money of your backers!  So forgive us if we seem so skeptical.

Since I'm fond of metaphors, here's how I see this...  Think of this project like a mountain in your path, one that's so big, it looks like it can't be climbed.  Most people, when they see this mountain, will plot a course around it, or perhaps will hire some kind of aircraft and fly over it.  Some hardy souls might even attempt that climb, buying the equipment and hiring the sherpas needed for the journey - and with care and patience, they might succeed.  Your solution is more like trying to fling yourself over the mountain on a trebuchet...it's difficult, costly, untested and among the riskiest of solutions to the problem at hand.  When easier, more effective, tried-and-true solutions exist - USE THEM!
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2015, 01:52:20 PM »
 

NgNash

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Dealing with decks is tricky and needs to be done carefully and professional, but as someone mentioned previously (here or might be elsewhere), this is not a rocket science, and its not something that any big and serious printer can not do. Of course we are not going to print them on just any paper, the standards must be respected.

These are the specifications we got from the printer we inquired about the cards printing:
black core paper 310 gsm , air cushion finish, casino quality
glossy finish
embossed tuck box
hard box with gold hot stamping
24k gold foil for the card edges
certificate with gold foil printing.

 


 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2015, 02:14:41 PM »
 

Justin O.

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I thought Air Cushion Finish was a Bike thing, no?
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

The people who handle playing cards are always in a world of delicate fingertip technology.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2015, 02:56:49 PM »
 

NgNash

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I thought Air Cushion Finish was a Bike thing, no?

Its actually linen finish (same thing different name).
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2015, 03:06:35 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Dealing with decks is tricky and needs to be done carefully and professional, but as someone mentioned previously (here or might be elsewhere), this is not a rocket science, and its not something that any big and serious printer can not do. Of course we are not going to print them on just any paper, the standards must be respected.

These are the specifications we got from the printer we inquired about the cards printing:
black core paper 310 gsm , air cushion finish, casino quality
glossy finish
embossed tuck box
hard box with gold hot stamping
24k gold foil for the card edges
certificate with gold foil printing.

Y'see, right there, already you're running into pitfalls...

"Air cushion finish," as already pointed out, is a trademark name of the US Playing Card Company.  You could get into legal problems advertising that...  OK, "linen finish" it is now, as I've read the previous post.  "Same thing?"  Perhaps from USPC it is, but not from other companies.  I have a fun article coming out in issue 8 of CARD CULTURE about stocks and finishes from Expert PCC - you might find it educational.  Finishes can actually have different depths, which will affect the flexibility or stiffness of the card.

310gsm is not casino quality, unless it's a really crappy casino.  That's barely thicker than a pack of Bicycles, which will generally weigh in at about 300gsm - though they now measure in caliper thickness at USPC, last I heard.  Earlier Bicycles were 310gsm, if I remember correctly.  So, nice quality, but not casino quality.

Gold foil applications for gilding are VERY tricky.  If your company doesn't have experience in it, they're going to hit some cost overruns on ruined decks - costs that you'll likely be footing the bill for.  I have a client that sells gilded decks which they make using this process - it's painstaking and very expensive.  They sell their decks for a LOT more than you sell yours, and in tiny, tiny quantities (50 is the amount of a typical run) because they're just so labor-intensive to make.  There's an article about it in issue 7 of CARD CULTURE, if you guys want to read it.  It's my interview with Uusi; Peter Dunham and Linnea Gits.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 03:07:29 PM by Don Boyer »
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2015, 03:31:50 PM »
 

Justin O.

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black core paper 310 gsm , air cushion finish, casino quality
Y'see, right there, already you're running into pitfalls...
"Air cushion finish," as already pointed out, is a trademark name of the US Playing Card Company. 
OK, "linen finish" it is now, as I've read the previous post.  "Same thing?"  Perhaps from USPC it is, but not from other companies.
310gsm is not casino quality, unless it's a really crappy casino. 
though they now measure in caliper thickness at USPC, last I heard.
There's an article about it in issue 7 of CARD CULTURE, if you guys want to read it.  It's my interview with Uusi; Peter Dunham and Linnea Gits.

I can never quite remember the finish specifics, I'm glad I was right though. And I didn't even catch the 310 weight and casino stock labeling contradiction.

Interesting about Bicycle switching away from paper weight to thickness, I wonder why? Maybe to get away from makeplayingcards.com and people being able to say 'XXXgms' stock to make people think 'top tier printer'?
*coughbeautifulmacabrecough*

Also Uusi Studios just posted a couple short videos of Peter laying the leaf on a deck of cards and brushing on the sizing. Very cool to watch.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 03:35:29 PM by Justin O. »
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

The people who handle playing cards are always in a world of delicate fingertip technology.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2015, 03:51:32 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I can never quite remember the finish specifics, I'm glad I was right though. And I didn't even catch the 310 weight and casino stock labeling contradiction.

Interesting about Bicycle switching away from paper weight to thickness, I wonder why? Maybe to get away from makeplayingcards.com and people being able to say 'XXXgms' stock to make people think 'top tier printer'?
*coughbeautifulmacabrecough*

Also Uusi Studios just posted a couple short videos of Peter laying the leaf on a deck of cards and brushing on the sizing. Very cool to watch.

It probably had more to do with inconsistency in the stocks.  They offer it not in a specific caliper thickness, to my knowledge, but in a specific RANGE of thickness.  I'll have better, more detailed information (hopefully) by issue 9 of CARD CULTURE - USPC is supposed to send me information on the stocks, finishes and other features they offer.

When issue 8 comes out Wednesday next week, it will have a great article on EPCC's offerings plus an exclusive on USPC's new MetalLuxeâ„¢ metallic foil process for their cards and (if all things work out) an interview with Lawrence Sullivan of LPCC, plus other great stuff.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2015, 04:19:47 PM »
 

Justin O.

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I can never quite remember the finish specifics, I'm glad I was right though. And I didn't even catch the 310 weight and casino stock labeling contradiction.

Interesting about Bicycle switching away from paper weight to thickness, I wonder why? Maybe to get away from makeplayingcards.com and people being able to say 'XXXgms' stock to make people think 'top tier printer'?
*coughbeautifulmacabrecough*

Also Uusi Studios just posted a couple short videos of Peter laying the leaf on a deck of cards and brushing on the sizing. Very cool to watch.

It probably had more to do with inconsistency in the stocks.  They offer it not in a specific caliper thickness, to my knowledge, but in a specific RANGE of thickness.  I'll have better, more detailed information (hopefully) by issue 9 of CARD CULTURE - USPC is supposed to send me information on the stocks, finishes and other features they offer.

When issue 8 comes out Wednesday next week, it will have a great article on EPCC's offerings plus an exclusive on USPC's new MetalLuxeâ„¢ metallic foil process for their cards and (if all things work out) an interview with Lawrence Sullivan of LPCC, plus other great stuff.

That might end up being the first issue I will have read
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

The people who handle playing cards are always in a world of delicate fingertip technology.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2015, 05:51:21 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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That might end up being the first issue I will have read

DUDE!  You do NOT know what you're missing!
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2015, 08:15:25 PM »
 

HankMan

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That might end up being the first issue I will have read

DUDE!  You do NOT know what you're missing!


So True... the interview with Uusi was 1 of the article I enjoyed the most  :D
I am also very interested if your interview with Laurence Sullivan happen.

Back for more
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2015, 09:10:33 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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That might end up being the first issue I will have read

DUDE!  You do NOT know what you're missing!


So True... the interview with Uusi was 1 of the article I enjoyed the most  :D
I am also very interested if your interview with Laurence Sullivan happen.

I have to check - it might be delayed until next month's issue, but we might have an interview with Giovanni Meroni to replace it for this month.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2015, 11:38:04 PM »
 

NgNash

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70% of goal reached :)  7 days more to go.
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2015, 01:51:38 AM »
 

NgNash

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Hi folks,

Original drawings for the cards are now available as rewards. Check them out ;)

 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2015, 06:09:12 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hi folks,

Original drawings for the cards are now available as rewards. Check them out ;)

Do you know who's printing THESE?  Last update was eight days ago and you still hadn't named a printer for the deck yet.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2015, 06:15:43 AM »
 

HankMan

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Hi folks,

Original drawings for the cards are now available as rewards. Check them out ;)

Do you know who's printing THESE?  Last update was eight days ago and you still hadn't named a printer for the deck yet.

I don't think this is gonna be mentioned any time soon...
Back for more
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2015, 06:36:56 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hi folks,

Original drawings for the cards are now available as rewards. Check them out ;)

Do you know who's printing THESE?  Last update was eight days ago and you still hadn't named a printer for the deck yet.

I don't think this is gonna be mentioned any time soon...

Considering that they're a good distance from their goal, it may never get mentioned, 'cause it won't get printed.  It's actually not a bad deck artistically speaking, but the whole campaign has all the organization of a desert sandstorm.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2015, 07:28:05 AM »
 

NgNash

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Guys,

I'm not sure how many times I need to say same thing - Legend asked for more then 10K just for printing this deck + shipment + they don't do golden edges!! Similar was with MPC - not offering what we wanted. Even regular decks with small quantities are too expansive to be made with these.

We'll deal this locally with printer named Tamilov as said before, with us overlooking the process. Actually to get all need - three printers will be included. Look at this almost as manually made, cause known companies for doing this - their prices are too high for this deck! They are good when you are creating 2-5000 decks and when you have established network for selling decks later.

Nash
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 08:29:33 AM by NgNash »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2015, 06:21:12 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Guys,

I'm not sure how many times I need to say same thing - Legend asked for more then 10K just for printing this deck + shipment + they don't do golden edges!! Similar was with MPC - not offering what we wanted. Even regular decks with small quantities are too expansive to be made with these.

We'll deal this locally with printer named Tamilov as said before, with us overlooking the process. Actually to get all need - three printers will be included. Look at this almost as manually made, cause known companies for doing this - their prices are too high for this deck! They are good when you are creating 2-5000 decks and when you have established network for selling decks later.

Nash

What kind of press does Tamilov use?  It's probably a sheet fed press, but is it digital or offset or something else?

What type of stock?  Where is it sourced?  What is the finish?
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2015, 10:12:59 PM »
 

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NgNash - I have to agree with Don.  This might be a another mountain for you, but you do seem to know marketing.  The goal is to make a film?  You have $8500 in pledges with a local printer who can also do gold gilded edges.  That is amazing.  Now if you were UUPC or Uusi, I might consider pledging.  It would not surprise me  if they came up with their own stock of paper.  That husband and wife team are known for there physical art in wooden card containers and gilded edges.  Why is UUPC being thrown around here so much?  >:(
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 09:33:56 AM by sprouts1115 »
 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2015, 01:41:33 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Why is UUPC being thrown around here so much?  >:(

You're the one throwing it - you tell us!  I have no idea what "UUPC" is...

NgNash - there's a reason why those card companies charge what they charge.  They do high-quality work and they know playing cards.  The old expression "you get what you pay for" applies in spades when it comes to playing cards.  Go cheap, you'll have cheap cards that aren't even worth gilding.  Speaking of which - gilding isn't exactly a cheap process.  You would have known this if you checked it out before launch.  Quality gilding is even less cheap, and difficult to obtain - it's one of the reasons why even for the rare projects that offer gilded decks, they're only available in tiny quantities, usually 100 or less, and for large sums of cash.  Thinking you could get a quality gilded deck done for what you were asking AND make a profit on it might have been too much - and I can't see using this local press as being a step up from the other possible options.

It reminds me of this one movie theater owner I knew about.  He "upgraded" his single-screen movie theater, turning the balcony into a separate theater and decided to go with the most expensive brand of speakers on the market.  Not that it mattered, because he bought the cheapest speakers that company makes...  You can't make a quality deck with all those features for those prices and expect it to be top notch for the same reasons why I can't buy a Mercedes-Benz car on a Daewoo budget.
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2016, 01:02:31 PM »
 

Nemanja

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Hi all :)

I'm starting Black Friday sale for the Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards, deck for only 12$ or double for 20$! Gold foiled cards printed on high quality paper with black core and air cushion finish for durability and better handling.

Don't miss this ;)

https://www.etsy.com/listing/259382536/the-phantom-of-the-opera-playing-cards

 

Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2016, 01:14:43 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hi all :)

I'm starting Black Friday sale for the Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards, deck for only 12$ or double for 20$! Gold foiled cards printed on high quality paper with black core and air cushion finish for durability and better handling.

Don't miss this ;)

Tempting, but we never did establish who printed them and at what quality.  If you want to charge a premium for a pack of cards, people expect a premium product, not a mystery wrapped in an enigma.  By the way, "Air Cushion Finish" is a trademark of the US Playing Card Company - don't let them and their lawyers catch wind of you using it!  They do have accounts on this forum!
Card Illusionist, NYC Area
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Deck Tailoring: Custom Alterations for Magicians and Card Mechanics
Services for Hire - http://thedecktailor.com/
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Re: The Phantom of the Opera Playing Cards (live on KS)
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2016, 03:59:58 AM »
 

Nemanja

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And THE DAY has come!

To spicy things up a bit and since I've been asked for multiple decks often enough - I've added an option for TRIPLE deck for 30$. Now to be even more interesting - ONLY today, buy this and you will get FORTH deck for free. So it's 4 decks for $30 ;)

Enjoy Black Friday folks ^ ^

https://www.etsy.com/listing/259382536/the-phantom-of-the-opera-playing-cards