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Do you have a preference between USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC?

I only buy/pledge for decks produced by USPCC
0 (0%)
I only buy/pledge for decks produced by EPCC or LPCC
0 (0%)
I prefer USPCC, but would go for EPCC/LPCC if the design/other features were good enough - it's just a higher hurdle for the latter
11 (34.4%)
I prefer EPCC/LPCC, but would go for USPCC if the design/other features were good enough - it's just a higher hurdle for the latter
5 (15.6%)
I really don't care who produced the deck - all I care about is the design/features of the deck!
16 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 32

USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC

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USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« on: September 11, 2014, 11:06:30 AM »
 

aldazar

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Curious to see what people's positions on the major producers of playing cards are these days... I admit I still have a bias toward USPCC, but it's quite possibly and irrational and outdated one... What do you guys think?
 

Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2014, 01:30:33 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Expert and Legends hands down.  My opinion's a bit biased from horror stories some of my clients and friends have mentioned about their dealings with USPC.  Quality-wise, sure, USPC is good, but I've seen many a USPC clunker and practically none from Expert or Legends.  The standards are higher with Bill and Lawrence, their customer service is responsive and treats designers not just like people, but like friends, and the features and deals they offer USPC is only now starting to contemplate.
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Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2014, 04:07:50 PM »
 

Fess

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This is an interesting question. I'm curious what others think as well. I find I lean more and more toward EPCC/LPCC. It doesn't matter to me how any company treats anyone like it does to Don. Of course I want designers treated well, we're all friends after all. Still with the actual cards I'm only interested in the end result, because I'm purely a consumer. I play a lot of poker and I like to play with nice cards. At the end of the game, when it's all said and done. The EPCC cards tend to feel great. The USPCC cards kinda feel beat to hell. Now this isn't for every game, sometimes a bonehead thinks it's acceptable to have buffalo wings and touch cards. Infuriating, but it happens on rare occasion. It doesn't matter what the card is or who made them, after a buffalo shuffle... ugh.  >:(

That's not saying I don't like my much beloved USPCC made cards, oh I do. Absolutely love them. I'm just leaning a bit toward EPCC/LPCC. I really like the deep embossing USPCC puts on their cards, the linen. I think it's more of a nostalgic thing maybe? I don't know, but I miss it when we're going through back to back bricks of EPCC made decks like we did with Noc v3s.

I think it's also comforting knowing I'm not going to get a bad deck if it's EPCC/LPCC made. Well, I haven't gotten one so far we'll say. I like that a lot. Sometimes I'll pop a USPCC made deck and it's crazy cut, boarders all thick on one side, thin on the other. Worst brick I've ever had was USPCC a few years ago. No idea what was going on but those should have been scrapped, not sold to the public. I wish I had taken photos instead of just tossing them in the fire pit out of irritation. Some people may know what I mean haha. It was bad. Haven't had an experience like that with EPCC/LPCC playing cards but I also haven't used nearly as much as I have USPCC so who knows, but I really don't think it'll happen with EPCC.

Anyway, yea, I lean toward EPCC. I probably buy close to the same amount from both companies, still slightly more of USPCC but they just have sooo many decks. That says a lot since it's purchase power at this point and I used to buy 95 - 99% USPCC made.

Oh yea, EPCC/LPCC win hands down on Tucks. Gorgeous!  ;D
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Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2014, 05:07:08 AM »
 

troy

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I have some of the Serpentine decks from LPCC and the overall feel is excellent. They feel better than the EPCC decks I have.

That said, the design is the most important factor for me.
 

Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2014, 05:35:51 AM »
 

Fess

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I left a couple EPCC decks in the car one afternoon early last month. Had to run out and grab them for a game. Word to the wise, let them cool down before you use them. They feel strange when they're real hot. Bikes don't care if they're hot. Master finish, it cares and it doesn't like it.
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Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2014, 08:06:50 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I left a couple EPCC decks in the car one afternoon early last month. Had to run out and grab them for a game. Word to the wise, let them cool down before you use them. They feel strange when they're real hot. Bikes don't care if they're hot. Master finish, it cares and it doesn't like it.

No, trust me - Bikes DO care!  The extreme heat of a car's passenger compartment on a hot day does not do good things to playing cards in general.  The heat can warp cards due to the polymers in the coating and shorten the lifespan by altering the moisture content of the paper.  Dry heat will desiccate it, moist heat will oversaturate it - neither bodes well for the cards' performance.

Generally speaking, any environment that's not so great for humans is probably not so great for cards, either.
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Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2014, 11:55:40 AM »
 

John B.

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also dont freeze them, just like the heat it does not end well. lol
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2014, 10:32:04 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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also dont freeze them, just like the heat it does not end well. lol

Yeah, "freezing" tends not to be a human-friendly environment, just as is "hot"...and they're not good for cards...
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Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2014, 11:05:26 PM »
 

aldazar

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Don't take them for a swim either! Swimming is ok for humans but probably not so much for regular (non-plastic) playing cards... =P
 

Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2014, 12:12:54 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Don't take them for a swim either! Swimming is ok for humans but probably not so much for regular (non-plastic) playing cards... =P

Sit in a pool for twenty-four hours and tell me how wonderful it is for human beings...  :))
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Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2014, 05:26:50 PM »
 

John B.

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You would be pruny but I am sure you would be ok.
Do you guys even read this? Like I could have the meaning of life here and I doubt you would know it.
 

Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2014, 04:44:44 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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You would be pruny but I am sure you would be ok.

Don't be so sure.  Look up the medical papers that were drafted after David Blaine's attempt to break the record for holding one's breath underwater.  Similar problems occurred during the filming of "The Abyss" inside an uncompleted nuclear reactor doubling as the bottom of the ocean - crew members were spending twelve hours at a stretch underwater and it did nasty things to their skin.  In fact, those diving masks that allow you to talk by radio underwater were invented specifically for that film!  They didn't exist prior to that!  I remember reading about some crew members getting weird fungal infections because of all that time spent wet.
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Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2015, 04:40:08 AM »
 

Mr.parangot

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That might be a stupid question, but I always thought LPCC and EPCC are the same? Whats the difference between those two?
 

Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2015, 06:58:10 AM »
 

HankMan

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That might be a stupid question, but I always thought LPCC and EPCC are the same? Whats the difference between those two?

you might want to go the official company thread to find the details, but as far as I know they are using the same printing company in Taiwan.
But they are 2 separate entities.
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Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2015, 07:49:31 AM »
 

Mr.parangot

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Thank you, I was already confused when I read that they both print in Taiwan. Also some decks, like the CARC classic twins or the Zen decks are listed on both companies websites.
 

Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2015, 08:11:23 AM »
 

ksi

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Never tried LPCC.
Only got 1 deck from EPCC (NOCv3).  But I don't like it.  The feeling is so plastic.  And it started clump together after around 2 weeks.  Yes I agreed the plastic feel might make the deck last a bit longer.  But I prefer paper feels.
However, I don't mind to pick some LPCC or EPCC to try on, in the case there are some great designs available.

Although I prefer USPCC a bit more, I am a bit disappointed with their recent years production.  It seems that all are from the similar (if not the same) stock.

I love my UV500 decks, I love my OHIO Propaganda, I love my Split Spades Lions.  They are all bold, solid and with luxury paper feeling.  Sadly such feeling is too difficult to find from those decks produced in recent years.
 

Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2015, 06:52:50 PM »
 

HankMan

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Never tried LPCC.
Only got 1 deck from EPCC (NOCv3).  But I don't like it.  The feeling is so plastic.  And it started clump together after around 2 weeks.  Yes I agreed the plastic feel might make the deck last a bit longer.  But I prefer paper feels.
However, I don't mind to pick some LPCC or EPCC to try on, in the case there are some great designs available.

Although I prefer USPCC a bit more, I am a bit disappointed with their recent years production.  It seems that all are from the similar (if not the same) stock.

I love my UV500 decks, I love my OHIO Propaganda, I love my Split Spades Lions.  They are all bold, solid and with luxury paper feeling.  Sadly such feeling is too difficult to find from those decks produced in recent years.

I would suggest you try classic finish from either EPCC or LPCC. Some example will be Mirage deck, Soundboard Deck, Draconians (LPCC) or Classic Twins (EPCC). To me they do have that plastic feel, not as much as diamond or master but still better than USPCC deck.

It will take some time to get the hang of it, but once you broke in the deck it feels much better than any USPCC deck.
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Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2015, 01:03:21 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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That might be a stupid question, but I always thought LPCC and EPCC are the same? Whats the difference between those two?

Expert Playing Card Company is a wholly-owned division of the Conjuring Arts Research Center - a for-profit division of a not-for-profit company.  It's owned and operated by William Kalush out of offices at CARC in Midtown Manhattan.

Legends Playing Card Company is owned by Lawrence Sullivan and is headquartered in Hong Kong.

Both companies do the majority of their print work at a shared printing facility located in Taipei, Taiwan - the exact name and location are industry secrets.  Each company has at one point or another in their history experimented with using their own subcontractors located in mainland China - Expert once used a plant in Shanghai for the Blue Crown's Nautical deck and their own Global Titans, while any Legends decks made with Emerald stock are made at an undisclosed location in China, as far as I know.  To my knowledge, Expert no longer uses the Shanghai plant.

The two companies are "friendly competitors," sharing a single plant for the majority of their print work.  Both companies offer "Classic Stock" which is the same, and Legends offers "Diamond Stock" which is the same as Expert's "Master Stock."  Beyond that, their offerings are unique to each company.  The stocks used in the Taipei plant are sourced from somewhere in Europe - again, it's an industry secret.
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Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2015, 04:23:18 AM »
 

ksi

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Never tried LPCC.
Only got 1 deck from EPCC (NOCv3).  But I don't like it.  The feeling is so plastic.  And it started clump together after around 2 weeks.  Yes I agreed the plastic feel might make the deck last a bit longer.  But I prefer paper feels.
However, I don't mind to pick some LPCC or EPCC to try on, in the case there are some great designs available.

Although I prefer USPCC a bit more, I am a bit disappointed with their recent years production.  It seems that all are from the similar (if not the same) stock.

I love my UV500 decks, I love my OHIO Propaganda, I love my Split Spades Lions.  They are all bold, solid and with luxury paper feeling.  Sadly such feeling is too difficult to find from those decks produced in recent years.

I would suggest you try classic finish from either EPCC or LPCC. Some example will be Mirage deck, Soundboard Deck, Draconians (LPCC) or Classic Twins (EPCC). To me they do have that plastic feel, not as much as diamond or master but still better than USPCC deck.

It will take some time to get the hang of it, but once you broke in the deck it feels much better than any USPCC deck.

Thank you very much for the advice.
Yes I am planning to buy some LUXX Elliptica upon their release.  They are classic finish by LPCC. 
Now just hope they will put some stocks to sell in the LPCC website.  Seems shipping from LPCC to Hong Kong is much cheaper.
 

Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2017, 01:29:28 AM »
 

EndersGame

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This is a great thread, and although I realize it's over a year old, there's some excellent comments here, especially from Don.

I just wanted to update this by mentioning that Legends Playing Card Company and EPCC now have an additional finish available that is worth considering.  As best as I can tell, the "Elite" finish from Legends is identical to the "Damask" finish from EPCC (for some discussion on the Damask finish, see this thread).  It's similar card-stock to the "Classic" finish used by both companies, but apparently has a deeper embossing, and thus a softer feel.

I'd also highly recommend reading the very excellent feature article by Don Boyer entitled "What's In An Expert Card? Plenty!", which gives an extensive overview of the manufacture and quality of decks by Expert Playing Card Company.  You can find it in the complimentary issue of CARD CULTURE which is available right here: CardCulture-Special-Issue-2015.pdf (p.14ff)

I've also written a detailed article about Legends Playing Cards which you'll find here:
http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=10259

I wrote this independently from Don's work, and only afterwards came across his great article, which does a much better job of covering everything; although it helps that he had the benefit of sitting down with someone (William Kalush) from EPCC.  But I also cover their four types of finishes, and how they compare with USPCC cards. 

Seeing as it is relevant to this topic, I'll repeat some of my conclusions about the Legends playing cards below.  If any of my information is inaccurate, I'd love to be corrected on any points.

Regards, Ender

Finish types: The word "finish" is often used and meant in different ways. Technically it does not refer to the coating that is applied to a card at the end of the printing process, but rather to the texture of the card's surface, which can be either smooth or embossed (i.e. dimpled, to create an "air cushion" that makes the cards slide optimally).  When embossed, this can be done to different depths and with different patterns.  Legends offers four different "finishes", which are really different combinations of paper stock and embossing.  Their paper stock comes pre-embossed from overseas suppliers, and the main differences between their "finishes" has to do with the type of paper and embossing used.  Some of these finishes are identical to the ones offered by Expert Playing Card Company (EPCC), despite different names given to them, because these two companies do collaborate at times, and often use the same factory in Taiwan:
Diamond Finish (=EPCC's Master finish) - This is the thinnest paper stock, but is very hardy and durable.  The embossing is similar to Bicycle's "Air Cushion Finish".  It is the thinnest and least-embossed, and this makes it feel somewhat plastic-like, but it is also the longest lasting.
Classic Finish (=EPCC's Classic finish) - This is a thicker paper stock, which feels softer and more papery.  The embossing is also similar to Bicycle's "Air Cushion Finish".  Of all four finishes, this has an overall feel that is closest to a Bicycle type deck.
Elite Finish  (=EPCC's Damask finish) - This uses a similar paper stock to the Classic Finish, but uses a different and deeper embossing pattern on the cards, making them feel softer.
Emerald Finish  - This has a similar feel to the Diamond Finish, and is made from thin paper stock with minimal embossing, and a slick coating. Unlike the other three finishes, this is produced in a factory in China rather than Taiwan, and has standard Casino-cut edges rather than the superior Diamond Cut used for the other three finishes.
Of these four, the two that are the most commonly used are the Diamond Finish and the Classic Finish; personally I have a slight preference for the latter, but that might change over time.

Card quality: Even though the card-stock of the Legends' decks is slightly thinner than standard Bicycle stock, they have a very strong paper that doesn't seem to be any less durable than other decks.  This is especially true of the Diamond Finish cards. While they feel thinner and more snappy than most most playing cards, they are also incredibly durable.  There's an immediate sense that they can handle a lot of wear and tear, to the point that they almost seem to be made out of plastic.  Perhaps that's the reason why some designers prefer the Classic Finish over the Diamond Finish, because the Classic Finish is slightly thicker, and has an overall feel that more closer approximates the feel of typical Bicycle deck from USPCC, while still handling better than a standard Bicycle deck.  With both finishes, there's an initial stiffness that ensures that the deck actually improves in its handling as it is broken in.  The cards and hold their shape well, and have a beautiful snap, especially noticeable when springing, which is far more satisfying and smooth with this deck than a Bicycle deck!  While they have a real spring to them, at the same time the cards still fan beautifully and spread very evenly.  That's because the card surface is embossed with tiny dimples to ensure just the right level of friction, and the finish ensures good handling for shuffling and fanning.  The cards are less slippery than usual, ensuring that they don't slide over each other too much during shuffling, and they also packet well for cardistry.  In other words, the handling is superb all round.  I could find no fault with either the Diamond or Classic finish, but can't really comment on the Elite or Emerald finish, since I don't really have enough experience with those.

Card cut: As for the cut of the cards, it's precisely what Legends' Lawrence Sullivan has aimed for with all the finishes: beautiful clean edges that are second to none, and a consistent border which can be thinner than usual due to the precision printing process. The fact that they have smoother edges than Bicycle cards is immediately noticeable when taking them out the box the first time. We were very impressed with this step up in quality, when compared with a regular Bicycle deck. The card expert I consulted observed that even though the Classic finish felt more akin to a Bicycle deck from USPCC than the Diamond finish did, the Legends decks performed better than the USPCC decks because of the much smoother cut, which made maneuvers like a perfect faro far easier and smooth. Legends decks are all given a "traditional cut" (face to back) rather than the "modern cut" (back to face) used by USPCC, and that also makes the Legends decks better for doing a weave/faro shuffle straight out of the box, without needing to be worn in first - card experts prefer the traditional cut for this reason.

Card printing: The precision printing used by Legends allows them to use narrower borders than normal, which gives a greater range of options for designers, and also can produce a classier look. While a web press is preferred by USPCC for the sake of efficiency and speed when doing higher-volume print runs of many thousands, Legends only uses a sheet-fed press (which USPCC also uses for smaller print runs), which gives greater precision in printing and cutting. As best as I can tell in the decks I own, the printing registration is consistently crisp and bold. The only issue I noticed with printing was with a deck that had all black cards (Don Quixote Vol 1), and seemed to have some white marks and spots on every card, which detracted somewhat from the overall look once you noticed it. However, to be fair, some of the pictures I've seen of this deck online suggest that this might even be part of the design, in which case it's not at all a flaw in the printing process. Aside from this deck, the printing on all the other decks I have was crisp, clear, colorful, and more than satisfactory.


See the entire review here.
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Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2017, 05:15:48 AM »
 

EndersGame

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For a more detailed analysis, and comparison between USPCC and EPCC/LPCC decks, see this extensive article here:

Analysing the quality/handling of a USPCC deck vs EPCC/LPCC decks: four key elements
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Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2017, 01:26:23 AM »
 

jul320

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I find that even if you compare - let's say - just USPCC or EPCC/LPCC cards, that with the different art design styles, card stock, finish, and cut, there are all a little bit different, even if those differences may be minute. And I can understand bias towards one or the other, and if you want to get one or the other or both, then it's all fine.
 

Re: USPCC vs EPCC/LPCC
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2017, 06:17:48 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I find that even if you compare - let's say - just USPCC or EPCC/LPCC cards, that with the different art design styles, card stock, finish, and cut, there are all a little bit different, even if those differences may be minute. And I can understand bias towards one or the other, and if you want to get one or the other or both, then it's all fine.

It's not so much about the different designs made by the three companies.  All of them do contract work for third parties all the time and it's up to the artist's preference and budget as to which one does the print work.  The point was more about the quality of the manufacturing and materials used to make the cards - EPCC and LPCC, while being separate companies, do share one print facility in Taiwan and each have their own facilities in mainland China, and are considered by many to be very high-quality makers of cards.  USPC was for the longest time the "big kid on the block" when it came to playing cards, not to mention that they've had the US market almost completely to themselves for many years after having bought out nearly every competing company out there with few exceptions (they had a sell a company they bought, Gemaco, a few years back because it triggered anti-trust concerns in the Federal government).  So the whole discussion was less about the artistic merits of the various decks, more about the quality of the print work and materials used - the manufacturing end of things.
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