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Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?

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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2014, 06:00:32 PM »
 

variantventures

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I see what you mean.  It may be possible that economics play a role in this.  While the technology has made it possible for people to do small print runs, the economics of large print runs are pretty much unchanged.  Selling a small batch of cards can be a lot easier than raising the funding for a large run of cards and then trying to find distributors.  And when you're working at those mass-production levels the profit per deck is measured in cents not dollars.

That said, people do seem to be going out of their way to create artificial scarcity.  Maybe it's because they're afraid of being stuck with unsold cards at the higher volumes or perhaps they're only interested in doing 'art' rather than 'business'.  You mentioned the woman making handmade decks.  I know of three people who make hand-made batches of playing cards.  They're much in demand amongst a very small group of collectors who can afford the prices they charge (which are very low when you consider the work that goes into those decks).  Those people are interested in making and owning pieces of art, not playing cards.

Of course economics play a role.  And yes, there's extra decks to be sold in most cases after the Kickstarter is over, unless the run was very short and funding just stopped - I've seen that happen a few times, though in most cases the creator simply releases an "unlimited" version of the deck, typically in a different color.

I'm not saying a deck of cards has to be sold in the quantities of a Bicycle Rider Back and at the same price points.  There is a middle ground, a sweet spot, where there's plenty of cards to go around at a decent price.  If there wasn't, the Bicycle Masters decks wouldn't exist, nor would the three basic colors of the Crown deck, the assorted non-rare colors of the NOC, Artifice, the Monarchs, etc. - without shipping or tax, these decks all sell for well under ten dollars a pack, and in most cases at discount for larger orders, often as little as buying three decks at once.

It's not cheap to order a deck in huge quantities, but it is manageable to order a print run of what would now be considered a "huge" amount - 5,000-deck runs used to be the norm because USPC was the only quality printer around and that was their minimum.  They weren't twice as expensive all the way around because of the lower per-deck costs.  Imagine finding a price point low enough that people are happy to buy these cards in bulk, or at least in greater amounts than they'd normally be able to afford if the deck was at least twice as rare and more than double the cost.  A company making a go of it could order 10,000, 15,000 or even 20,000 decks at a time if they sold well enough.

If Ellusionist and many others can do it, why can't more people?  They don't employ a zillion people - most of the companies we'd call "the majors" employ perhaps a dozen or less people, at least for their retail operations.  In other words, they're all manageable small businesses - one of the greatest sources of new employment in this country over the past decade.

What's the sweet spot?  Would the Masters decks exist if the Rider decks didn't exist?  Is it possible for a big company to do things a smaller company can't?  Sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative but I don't have answers to these questions.

I think you're correct that there is a niche for some smaller companies out there, but I also think most of the designers are doing this part time.  I did some back of the napkin calculations for my micro-business and determined that I could do it full-time with myself and two full time employees (preferably three) but in any event I would have to be a full time administrator (and part time sales guy) to do it.  Which meant I would have even less time to do design work than I have right now.  In effect, making my hobby my business would kill my hobby.  And I'd be taking a big pay cut even if I was wildly successful.

Maybe the niche is for a company that has the marketing skills and connections to take a design from the hobby stage to the middle ground.  I know I'd take a smaller profit per deck if a company took a lot of the marketing and fulfillment work out of my hands AND could sell to a larger audience.  My designs, of course, are a bad example here, but assume we're talking about someone with a contemporary design.  I haven't looked at any numbers to see if anyone can make a profit doing this, though.

Sorry.  Wish I had some answers when all I've got are more questions.
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2014, 01:35:18 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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What's the sweet spot?  Would the Masters decks exist if the Rider decks didn't exist?  Is it possible for a big company to do things a smaller company can't?  Sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative but I don't have answers to these questions.

I think you're correct that there is a niche for some smaller companies out there, but I also think most of the designers are doing this part time.  I did some back of the napkin calculations for my micro-business and determined that I could do it full-time with myself and two full time employees (preferably three) but in any event I would have to be a full time administrator (and part time sales guy) to do it.  Which meant I would have even less time to do design work than I have right now.  In effect, making my hobby my business would kill my hobby.  And I'd be taking a big pay cut even if I was wildly successful.

Maybe the niche is for a company that has the marketing skills and connections to take a design from the hobby stage to the middle ground.  I know I'd take a smaller profit per deck if a company took a lot of the marketing and fulfillment work out of my hands AND could sell to a larger audience.  My designs, of course, are a bad example here, but assume we're talking about someone with a contemporary design.  I haven't looked at any numbers to see if anyone can make a profit doing this, though.

Sorry.  Wish I had some answers when all I've got are more questions.

Would the Masters decks exist without the existence of the Rider Backs?  Of course they would - they'd simply use the same back design as whatever the predominant market design was.  They could just as easily have been made with Hoyle Shellbacks or Tally Ho Fan Backs or even Bee Diamond backs.  The choice of the Rider Back was simple - it's the most mass-produced deck in America and there are probably more magic tricks, gaffed cards and gaffed decks in that design than any other design in the world.  The point of it being made in the first place was to make an improved, more durable version of that most popular design, whichever design it happened to be - in this "timeline", it was the Rider Back.  The question has nothing to do with the situation we're talking about.

There are other decks I named that have been in production for some years now and continue to be produced on an ongoing basis.  They're not as massively popular as the Bicycle Rider Back deck, but companies are making them at reasonable prices and bulk quantities - probably print runs of at least 20K each.

I suppose the biggest issue about creating such decks is warehousing.  A typical one-and-done designer won't have ample space to warehouse unsold decks and time to spend marketing them to retailers and wholesalers as well as to the general public (or at least the card collector community).  Even if you had the money to make the deck, it costs more money to store it, and while it remains stored it COSTS you money in the process.  Any product that lies around in storage long enough may even be sold below cost just to get rid of it and either reduce your storage requirements or allow you to stock new, fresh products.

When I worked in retail about two lifetimes ago, the company I worked for eliminated all stockrooms for their stores, including the flagship store.  They "stored" all the product on the showroom floor, since products in a stock room earn nothing and cost the rent of the square footage.  If a customer asked, "Do you have a size (whatever) in back?", the answer is "No, we have no stock room - what you see here is all we have."  But two lifetimes ago was also the pre-GUI days of the Internet, back when only the government, military and universities had wide access to it.  Companies exist today that have no showroom floor and are thriving businesses.  Storage space costs a lot less than a retail store, unless you're talking about some bare-bones place like Home Depot or Costco - which are in essence just giant stockrooms open to the public.

To rein this all back in, there has to be a sweet spot where you haven't printed too many decks that it costs a fortune to store them before they're all sold, but also not so few that the per-deck cost to you is high and you have to pass that on to the customer.  Ellusionist and Theory11 and the others didn't just sprout out of the ground fully-grown - they had to be built one product at a time.  They're also not the huge companies people seem to think they are - each one employs in the ballpark of a dozen people each, plus or minus a few.  That's not much bigger than the micro-company you just described to me.  Sure, at first it would be your full-time job, but ownership of a growing company has rewards as well as risks.  Grow just enough and you can start delegating some of the heavy lifting while you get to do a bit more of the fun stuff like making deck ideas become reality.  It's a matter of whether you're willing to commit to that idea of creating a company instead of just a sideline.

Jackson Robinson appears to be moving in just that direction, and not strictly on the sale of his own products.  He created a Kickstarter project for a 20,000-run deck sold at $6 a pack, but unfortunately there's been so much more talk about the limited-edition 2,000-run deck he's giving away with it that it has overshadowed the entire project - with a week left he's less than 40% of the way to his goal.  I was really hoping it would succeed, but honestly, I think he would have done better just taking pre-orders for the $6 basic edition and using KS just for the limited edition.  He of all the people making decks on KS right now has the greatest potential to become the next full-time deck company.
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2014, 02:06:47 PM »
 

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I like limited edition, I don't think that is a negative thing. Limited edition shouldnt be a derogatory term.

"Limited" is one of the three turtles for any collector world... only when that word really means something. It does mean nothing for collecting of modern playing cards. Why? Don will explain you better ;)


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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2014, 03:12:30 PM »
 

Anthony

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I like limited edition, I don't think that is a negative thing. Limited edition shouldnt be a derogatory term.

"Limited" is one of the three turtles for any collector world... only when that word really means something. It does mean nothing for collecting of modern playing cards. Why? Don will explain you better ;)

Collector, the problem with the word "Limited" has always been the definition and assumed definition..............poor word didn't do anything wrong, lol
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2014, 03:00:05 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I like limited edition, I don't think that is a negative thing. Limited edition shouldnt be a derogatory term.

"Limited" is one of the three turtles for any collector world... only when that word really means something. It does mean nothing for collecting of modern playing cards. Why? Don will explain you better ;)

Collector, the problem with the word "Limited" has always been the definition and assumed definition..............poor word didn't do anything wrong, lol

I think what he's trying to get across is that once practically everything is "limited", the word effectively starts losing the power it once had.  "Limited" suddenly becomes commonplace.  There may only be 5,000 or 2,500 or 1,000 decks in THIS design, but there's five, ten, twenty, a HUNDRED more designs that share this characteristic, stripping away that which made it so special.  Reducing the size of the print run is an attempt to end-run around this fact, but it's only a matter of time before others are doing exactly the same thing, again practically sucking the meaning out of the word like an open airlock sucking out the air out of a spacecraft.  In card collecting, it's like an empty husk it's lost so much of its meaning and power.

Limited isn't derogatory - it's effectively been rendered meaningless instead, which I suppose is an even worse fate than being derogatory.
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2014, 03:40:52 PM »
 

Collector

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I like limited edition, I don't think that is a negative thing. Limited edition shouldnt be a derogatory term.

"Limited" is one of the three turtles for any collector world... only when that word really means something. It does mean nothing for collecting of modern playing cards. Why? Don will explain you better ;)

Collector, the problem with the word "Limited" has always been the definition and assumed definition..............poor word didn't do anything wrong, lol
...Limited isn't derogatory - it's effectively been rendered meaningless instead, which I suppose is an even worse fate than being derogatory.

+1
I don't have anything against words. Their meaning is more important.

Let's turn to the classics. Not Uusi but Numismatics.
 
Show me "re-coinage" (non-existent word but you will understand) of commemorative coins from the United States Mint. Can it add one dot to the design of the minted coins and mint them again as a "new edition"? Can it make a new packaging for minted coins and justify a new issue of them in that way? Can it sell the design to someone who will mint them as a new run of American dollars? The United States Mint isn't represented by some Bob who orally promises "People, 2500 coins, no more, I swear on my honour, honestly, honestly, honestly... at least this month".

I hope you understand what I am talking about. But all producers of playing cards consciously try to get the effect of "the U.S. Mint's limited run of coins" by their Limited editions. So, the only guarantee of limited run for playing cards is a word of some person. But any person is a human and quite often has weak will.

My summary:
Pay more attention to decks' design and the content of your wallet instead of "Limited Edition" label. Do you still want real limited editions of playing cards? The world of vintage playing cards welcomes you. And memorize the magic (or even magick) word “chromolithography” in this case.


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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2014, 08:25:00 PM »
 

Anthony

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Quote
Pay more attention to decks' design and the content of your wallet instead of "Limited Edition" label

Exactly
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2014, 12:07:44 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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+1
I don't have anything against words. Their meaning is more important.

Let's turn to the classics. Not Uusi but Numismatics.
 
Show me "re-coinage" (non-existent word but you will understand) of commemorative coins from the United States Mint. Can it add one dot to the design of the minted coins and mint them again as a "new edition"? Can it make a new packaging for minted coins and justify a new issue of them in that way? Can it sell the design to someone who will mint them as a new run of American dollars? The United States Mint isn't represented by some Bob who orally promises "People, 2500 coins, no more, I swear on my honour, honestly, honestly, honestly... at least this month".

I hope you understand what I am talking about. But all producers of playing cards consciously try to get the effect of "the U.S. Mint's limited run of coins" by their Limited editions. So, the only guarantee of limited run for playing cards is a word of some person. But any person is a human and quite often has weak will.

My summary:
Pay more attention to decks' design and the content of your wallet instead of "Limited Edition" label. Do you still want real limited editions of playing cards? The world of vintage playing cards welcomes you. And memorize the magic (or even magick) word “chromolithography” in this case.

I'm not sure this is an apt comparison in this case.  There's been practically no cases of Kickstarter or even "big-name" decks reprinting what was once a limited edition.  I will say, however, that there's PLENTY of cases of people (and "big names") who make a new box, drop the same cards in it and call it "new".  There are also cases of new limited edition decks being released in the same design but with a new color - LTD., Monarchs and Artifice come to mind immediately.

I think there will always be collectors who are eager and willing to snap up every box variant, color change, etc. - I knew of one who tried tracking different print runs, using the slightest changes as a cue.  But for the rest of us who aren't obsessive-compulsive about their collections, we have to learn to tell the difference between something really worth owning and something that one can pass on.  The line in the sand will be personal to each individual, but there should be a line there, a point at which we decide, "Yes, I'll buy these but NOT those, because I'm not forced to have a complete collection as they define it and prefer to buy decks I enjoy.  I do not have to be a completist, I do not have to (and can't afford to) buy every single new deck that comes out."

Limited editions feed into that compulsion - they practically amplify it.  That's fine for wealthy compulsives, but I'm an ordinary guy who happens to get a kick out of some of the cool deck designs out there and I'm NOT filthy rich, so I buy what I like and let someone else deal with the rest.
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2014, 02:58:13 PM »
 

variantventures

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Limited editions feed into that compulsion - they practically amplify it.  That's fine for wealthy compulsives, but I'm an ordinary guy who happens to get a kick out of some of the cool deck designs out there and I'm NOT filthy rich, so I buy what I like and let someone else deal with the rest.
I think the second market is far larger than the first, but it's harder to reach them and harder to get money out of them in the same volumes. :)
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2014, 03:08:35 PM »
 

Anthony

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+1
I don't have anything against words. Their meaning is more important.

Let's turn to the classics. Not Uusi but Numismatics.
 
Show me "re-coinage" (non-existent word but you will understand) of commemorative coins from the United States Mint. Can it add one dot to the design of the minted coins and mint them again as a "new edition"? Can it make a new packaging for minted coins and justify a new issue of them in that way? Can it sell the design to someone who will mint them as a new run of American dollars? The United States Mint isn't represented by some Bob who orally promises "People, 2500 coins, no more, I swear on my honour, honestly, honestly, honestly... at least this month".

I hope you understand what I am talking about. But all producers of playing cards consciously try to get the effect of "the U.S. Mint's limited run of coins" by their Limited editions. So, the only guarantee of limited run for playing cards is a word of some person. But any person is a human and quite often has weak will.

My summary:
Pay more attention to decks' design and the content of your wallet instead of "Limited Edition" label. Do you still want real limited editions of playing cards? The world of vintage playing cards welcomes you. And memorize the magic (or even magick) word “chromolithography” in this case.

I'm not sure this is an apt comparison in this case.  There's been practically no cases of Kickstarter or even "big-name" decks reprinting what was once a limited edition.  I will say, however, that there's PLENTY of cases of people (and "big names") who make a new box, drop the same cards in it and call it "new".  There are also cases of new limited edition decks being released in the same design but with a new color - LTD., Monarchs and Artifice come to mind immediately.

I think there will always be collectors who are eager and willing to snap up every box variant, color change, etc. - I knew of one who tried tracking different print runs, using the slightest changes as a cue.  But for the rest of us who aren't obsessive-compulsive about their collections, we have to learn to tell the difference between something really worth owning and something that one can pass on.  The line in the sand will be personal to each individual, but there should be a line there, a point at which we decide, "Yes, I'll buy these but NOT those, because I'm not forced to have a complete collection as they define it and prefer to buy decks I enjoy.  I do not have to be a completist, I do not have to (and can't afford to) buy every single new deck that comes out."

Limited editions feed into that compulsion - they practically amplify it.  That's fine for wealthy compulsives, but I'm an ordinary guy who happens to get a kick out of some of the cool deck designs out there and I'm NOT filthy rich, so I buy what I like and let someone else deal with the rest.

Excelent points Don, and I mean that, because when we were developing Aquila that was a big part of the discussion. We decided we wanted to make two decks, but wanted to make sure that each deck was "Unique" on it's own, so outside of the name, they are two unique decks. I understand it's simpler, but I'm not a big fan of Tuck Swaps, especially "Simple" ones where its just a color variant. Yes, I'm guilty of jumping on some of the "Blinged" out tucks out there, I think some look amazing and you can tell that at least some effort was put into them, unlike just shifting the "Hue" in Photo Shop.

Limited Editions are part of collecting, I just hope that if they're here to stay, some consideration is made in making them somehting special and not just a base variation.

 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2014, 05:13:13 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Excelent points Don, and I mean that, because when we were developing Aquila that was a big part of the discussion. We decided we wanted to make two decks, but wanted to make sure that each deck was "Unique" on it's own, so outside of the name, they are two unique decks. I understand it's simpler, but I'm not a big fan of Tuck Swaps, especially "Simple" ones where its just a color variant. Yes, I'm guilty of jumping on some of the "Blinged" out tucks out there, I think some look amazing and you can tell that at least some effort was put into them, unlike just shifting the "Hue" in Photo Shop.

Limited Editions are part of collecting, I just hope that if they're here to stay, some consideration is made in making them somehting special and not just a base variation.

New colors by themselves aren't a bad thing.  Without them, the "poker pair" wouldn't exist.  Some people prefer one color over another, so that's fine.  As long as they aren't ridiculously limited editions, more expensive even before they reach the secondary market, nearly impossible to obtain, yada yada yada - that's the point where I start to zone out.

As far as limited editions being special - that Pandora's box has already been opened, and it's too late to close it.  It's in the nature of Kickstarter to make limited editions because most people think on a smaller scale and make a project to create a deck, not to create a company that makes decks.  Producers need to find something OTHER than the concept of a limited edition to catch my eye.  Frankly, I like that companies like Ellusionist and the rest have "common" decks that have a designer's flair to them but aren't rare, impossible to find, expensive, out of print, etc.  It's nice to know that if my supply of Arcanes or Masters wear out, I can go buy more, no sweat, at least until the company goes out of business (hopefully not any time soon).  I know this will never be the case with all decks - the economics simply wouldn't support it - but I'd consider it a breath of fresh air in a stuffy, overheated room to have "common" decks out there more often.
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2014, 11:04:37 AM »
 

Anthony

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I think "Common" decks are going to be left to the "Companies" and Kickstarter, is what it is. I mean Uusi in my opinion is a good example, they are a "Company" and they decided to bring their vision to the playing card world in their six deck series. That's done and it's time for them to move on, they didn't want to be a "Playing Card Company" and Kickstarter, in my opinion, isn't really built for that "Standard" deck when it comes to playing cards, it is as you like to phrase it, a "Boutique" for the Custom Card designers. I agree with your point that I can get a "Standard" deck without breaking the bank from E or T11 and for the most part they'll be there for a good while, but.......like you said, they are a "Company" they don't want to produce a deck that "Cost" them more than $2, and they can do that because of the huge following, audience and deep pockets, not to mention other revenue streams within the company.

And more times than not, regardless of if we like it or not, "Those" KS backers seem to be looking for that exact thing, something shinny and limited, regardless of if its a contrived scarcity or not. 

To each his own, the problem I think is that a lot of people are starting to make the two, one and the same................and they're not.
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2014, 12:29:26 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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I think "Common" decks are going to be left to the "Companies" and Kickstarter, is what it is. I mean Uusi in my opinion is a good example, they are a "Company" and they decided to bring their vision to the playing card world in their six deck series. That's done and it's time for them to move on, they didn't want to be a "Playing Card Company" and Kickstarter, in my opinion, isn't really built for that "Standard" deck when it comes to playing cards, it is as you like to phrase it, a "Boutique" for the Custom Card designers. I agree with your point that I can get a "Standard" deck without breaking the bank from E or T11 and for the most part they'll be there for a good while, but.......like you said, they are a "Company" they don't want to produce a deck that "Cost" them more than $2, and they can do that because of the huge following, audience and deep pockets, not to mention other revenue streams within the company.

And more times than not, regardless of if we like it or not, "Those" KS backers seem to be looking for that exact thing, something shinny and limited, regardless of if its a contrived scarcity or not. 

To each his own, the problem I think is that a lot of people are starting to make the two, one and the same................and they're not.

Uusi was a company long before they showed up on Kickstarter, so yeah, their focus is very different.

I used to think the idea of a boutique card company would be cool, but at least here and now, I'm not so sure.

It's still pretty clear to me and a lot of other collectors, I believe, that "limited edition" by itself isn't enough, and that producers are engaging in a bells-and-whistles arms race with each other, trying to see who can make the deck that has the most of them.  Smaller print run, metallic foil, metallic ink, embossing, debossing, serial-numbered custom seals (I remember when people wanted decks WITHOUT deck seals), chromatic foil, custom pips, artwork inside the box...where does it end?

Maybe I should release "The Emperor's New Deck."  The fanciest tuck box money can buy, with projected holograms, LED lights and paper imported from Olympus itself - and no cards inside.  There are many collectors who might well be interested - it's not like they open the box in the first place, right?  The batteries for the lights will make up the difference in weight!
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2014, 12:32:30 PM »
 

Anthony

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Maybe I should release "The Emperor's New Deck."  The fanciest tuck box money can buy, with projected holograms, LED lights and paper imported from Olympus itself - and no cards inside.  There are many collectors who might well be interested - it's not like they open the box in the first place, right?  The batteries for the lights will make up the difference in weight!

LOL, oddly enough Don, I think this would sell   ::)
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2014, 10:06:23 PM »
 

Justin O.

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Isn't this exactly what JR was trying to do with his mat recent project? Create a deck that wasnt limited, that didn't rely on its upgraded features to sell? His goal got buried under the outcry for the limited Pearl deck. Even though it didn't have any premium features, solely because it was limited. People would have paid $20 to add one to their pledge.
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2014, 11:52:43 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Isn't this exactly what JR was trying to do with his mat recent project? Create a deck that wasnt limited, that didn't rely on its upgraded features to sell? His goal got buried under the outcry for the limited Pearl deck. Even though it didn't have any premium features, solely because it was limited. People would have paid $20 to add one to their pledge.

Isn't WHAT exactly what Jackson Robinson was trying to do?  He certainly wasn't making the Emperor's New Deck and you didn't quote anyone, so we have no reference to what you're talking about.

If it's printing in bulk for cheap, yes, that's what, among other things, we've been talking about.  And we also covered the fact that the entire project got overshadowed by the presence of a rare version of the deck.  I understand the reasoning of what he was trying to do - reward his most loyal customers for buying in larger amounts - but it also flies right in the face of his other stated goal, that of leveling the playing field and offering the same deal for the big spender as for the little spender; $6 a deck no matter how many you buy.  Sure, the Pearl Edition was also $6, but it came with a prerequisite of buying 11 Slates to get one (later changed to buying two Pearls when you get ten Slates).  The mixed message hampered his promotion efforts.  If he had simply not made a Pearl Edition or offered it as a direct purchase item with no prerequisites, the campaign would have become a bigger success.

I still think it would have been better still on his website, since he's got the kind of following to pull something like that off.  He could have taken enough pre-orders to pay for the entire print run and sold off the remainder as profit.  He did make some kind of crowdfunding thing but so far only one deck has go through the process, am I right?
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2014, 06:34:44 AM »
 

Anthony

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The problem is too many make something into something it's not, Jackson tried to give a little something back for those who made large purchases and while I understand your "Mixed Message" comment Don, people didn't even take the time to read about the Pearl deck.

They've become so conditioned that they just got there undies in a twist because of the non existent limited edition. I'm starting to feel that you could have had a rock signed by Jackson in place of the Pearl and had the same reaction. I know what Jackson was trying to accomplish and I'm really surprised and disappointed in the reaction and outcome.........just my opinion as always.
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2014, 06:48:35 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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The problem is too many make something into something it's not, Jackson tried to give a little something back for those who made large purchases and while I understand your "Mixed Message" comment Don, people didn't even take the time to read about the Pearl deck.

They've become so conditioned that they just got there undies in a twist because of the non existent limited edition. I'm starting to feel that you could have had a rock signed by Jackson in place of the Pearl and had the same reaction. I know what Jackson was trying to accomplish and I'm really surprised and disappointed in the reaction and outcome.........just my opinion as always.

I dunno, bro.  A lot of the guys talking about it here on the deck's topic were all about the Pearls and why they had to buy so many Slates to get them.  They weren't so concerned about Slates being so "common" as they were about the difficulties in getting Pearls.  I'd wager some would have even bought Pearls outright for nearly the same price it would have cost if they bought the whole brick and got the deal - it's wasn't just a price issue but a volume issue - "What would I do with all those Slate decks?"
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2014, 12:30:30 PM »
 

Anthony

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People had the option of just buying a few Slate decks, but since they built up the furvor over the Pearl deck into something it wasn't they all fixated on why they had to buy a brick to get 2 Pearls....2 Pearls which were not Limited Edition, or anything outside of a "Thank you" for spending $72.........Basicly a color swap. This is one of those converstaions that will just go around in a circle. So at this point, in my opinion, there really isn't anything to discuss, people made up their own minds as to what this project was about, people made up their own minds what the Pearl deck was or wasn't and that's pretty much it.

Being an armchair quarterback is always easy, and I'm not saying one side is right or wrong, but I do know that this campaign turned into something that it was not, no if ands or butts.
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2014, 04:53:56 PM »
 

Justin O.

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People had the option of just buying a few Slate decks, but since they built up the furvor over the Pearl deck into something it wasn't they all fixated on why they had to buy a brick to get 2 Pearls....2 Pearls which were not Limited Edition, or anything outside of a "Thank you" for spending $72.........

I beg to differ. The Pearl decks were a limited edition deck. There wasn't any idication they would be sold after the project, they were only going to be available at the highest tiers of the project and in small quantities without the option to get them directly through adding on.
And I think Don is right, people would have bought them at an exporbitant price because of that, I reckon you could have sold just one on ebay after the fact and made back most of your pledge for the entire brick, still had 10 slates and kept one of the Pearls for your collection. People know there is percieved value there and they want to own a peice of that.
Kickstarter completely revolutionized the way I waste money.

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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2014, 05:09:15 PM »
 

Anthony

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I reckon you could have sold just one on ebay after the fact and made back most of your pledge for the entire brick, still had 10 slates and kept one of the Pearls for your collection.

Well based on what I keep reading, this advice wouldn't work because you still have all those decks that you don't need "What am I going to do with 10 Slate decks?" I'm pretty sure I read that a lot, but I think your right. As I mentioned earlier, this conversation will just go around and around.

That being said, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this and that's perfectly fine.  :)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 06:52:33 AM by Anthony »
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2014, 02:20:45 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Being an armchair quarterback is always easy, and I'm not saying one side is right or wrong, but I do know that this campaign turned into something that it was not, no if ands or butts.

Agreed.


People know there is percieved value there and they want to own a peice of that.

That right there is a major part of the problem.  Perceived value doesn't necessarily mean actual value.  Your perceptions could be entirely different than someone else's - I guarantee you that if you tried selling this $72 brick to the typical CostCo or Sam's Club customer, they'd perceive a much lower value since they can buy a brick of Bikes for $10-$15 depending on what part of the country they're in.  Sure, they're prettier and nicer, but maybe not $57-$62 nicer...

This perceived value is why a deck that once sold for fifty cents now commands prices in the ballpark of $300-$400 or more.  It's not even a pure rarity issue - they're vintage, but no one knows just how rare they really are.  They perceive scarcity solely based on their own inability to get a pack whenever they want.  If someone who would know told you the print run was 100,000, would you be rushing so fast to buy a Jerry's Nugget deck at those prices?  But we're unlikely to ever know, since the deck was made 44 years ago, there's probably no one still working there today who was there when the deck was made and record-keeping on print runs becomes spottier the older the deck is.  To be fair, most companies selling manufactured products wouldn't hang onto their sales records from over four decades ago, but it would be interesting to see what a piece of news like that, if it were true, would do to the Jerry's Nugget price.
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Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2014, 07:00:44 AM »
 

Anthony

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Your spot on with the perceived value statement Don, and I'll add that when that happens with a deck that hasn't even been printed yet, you tend to fall into that "Speculator" category. I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, but when a given deck comes out everyone seems to fall into one category, collector, professional, or speculator. And depending on which you fall into, whether you want to admit it or not  ;) , will change your opinion of how the "Numbers" and "Availability" play out.

On a side note, opinions are great, we all have them, and while we may not agree all the time, it is refreshing that a conversation like this can be had without it getting ugly....kudos to the members of the PCF.

K, back on topic.............
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 07:01:26 AM by Anthony »
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2014, 12:19:32 PM »
 

cbkimble

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Personally "Limited Edition" has become $$$$ in many eyes. There are several people, including companies, that buy all they can get there hands on for resell purposes. The resell market is kinda faltering, IMO, at the moment due to the dozens of designs coming out. People either aren't able or aren't willing pay to the high prices for the moment. This will probably change around mid-February to March when everyone is getting tax returns. I'm willing to bet there will be a surge on decks again.

Artists are trying to make better and better decks, ex. Lotrek's Gold Venexiana. This serves as example of both limited and design. These were a limited run of only 212 decks(200 released) and made with actual Gold foil. These decks cost $100 each and are worth it, IMO not because they're limited but because of how beautiful they are. I was really surprised when they didn't resell for $200-300.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 12:21:24 PM by cbkimble »
 

Re: Is it Just Me, or is Something Wrong?
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2014, 03:27:19 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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On a side note, opinions are great, we all have them, and while we may not agree all the time, it is refreshing that a conversation like this can be had without it getting ugly....kudos to the members of the PCF.

K, back on topic.............

It's the kind of environment I try to foster here.  I'm glad to hear that it's appreciated.  I may be a bit of a big mouth, but I'm self-aware enough to realize that not everything I say should be inscribed in gold on fine parchment!  I'm human, I make mistakes, and hopefully I learn from them as well as apologizing for them.  In the process, I encourage the exchange of differing ideas.  Without such "discourse", this board would become old and stale in no time flat, too homogenous and boring to be worth the time to read, never mind post.  People CAN disagree without it becoming a flame war and with a great degree of civility and respect.

I, too, give kudos to the members of this forum, for making it a truly open, welcoming environment.  Without you, PCF is nothing.
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